I am intrigued to know which people were living in trees while Greeks were building the Parthenon ?
A bid to grant citizenship to thousands of second-generation immigrants caused more intense debate over the weekend as the right-wing nationalist Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS) claimed it has the Church of Greece’s support in opposing the draft law.
LAOS held a special congress on Saturday to discuss the proposals drawn up by the government, under which children born in Greece to immigrant parents would be able to apply for citizenship if their father or mother has been living here legally for at least five years and the child has completed at least three years of schooling in the country.
It is estimated that 250,000 youngsters would qualify for citizenship and 150,000 of those would be able to apply in time to vote in local elections later this year.
LAOS is opposed to the bill and has demanded a referendum but leader Giorgos Karatzaferis suggested that he would abandon this request if PASOK holds a vote among its own MPs to see if they are in favor. Nevertheless, the LAOS leader encouraged people to take to the streets to protest against the government’s proposals and to drum up support for a referendum.
“Greece is saying ‘no’ to this bill because it does not want Hellenism to be diluted,” said Karatzaferis. “Greece belongs to its history: We were building the Parthenon when they were still living in trees.”
He went on to claim that the leadership of the Church of Greece supports LAOS’s bid to hold a referendum and will sign such a petition. Karatzaferis also said he will collect signatures from other European countries.
In contrast, the Communist Party (KKE) issued a statement calling on the government to legalize all immigrants and to grant citizenship to all young migrants at 18.
Technorati Tags: greece, laos, nationalist, citizenship, immigration
Citizenship Battles on February 17th, 2010
Being Greek on February 10th, 2010
The Immigration Debate on January 22nd, 2010
Lack of Humanity on November 2nd, 2009
Aid Probe on October 24th, 2009
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Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL.
Accepting illegal immigration contributes to ignorance of the reasons that promote illegal immigration; e.g. foreign wars, governments abusing their citizens, etc.
Why is it that the UN does not address “issues” at respective countries that are source of illegal immigration.
The UN was “quick” on issues like Libya, Iraq, Serbia but turns a blind eye on other cases.
e.g. There are Pakistanis that illegally entered Greece, prefer the future prospects of Greece than their native Pakistan but still Pakistan is a nuclear nation. So Pakistan has the resources to be a nuclear nation but no resources to take care of it’s people’s needs. Their is something wrong with this picture. Where’s the diplomacy-stance of the UN ? Greece is not a nuclear nation.
With corruption being a standard feature of Greek politics for many years, the native Greeks have too many financial-related problems within their own country and accepting a flood/generation of new immigrants would just add fuel to the fire.
Greece’s love affair with it’s “lifestyle” needs to be tempered by less reliance on the government and more reliance on themselves. Also, the rampant political corruption needs to be stamped out. This would promote a stronger Greece in an infrastructure sense and would be in a much better position to accept immigrants provided the Greeks wished to do so.
God bless Laos
citizenship is a privlege not a right..unless your Greek then its your right by blood.
and anyway why do we need so many people here…we do not have the economy for it anyway.
No agree that people was living in trees when Greeks was doing the dew. The oldest bones on da earth were found in Africa so the African immigrants technically were doing the dew well before the Greeks.
Africa is Older than Greece,
What makes you think that he was talking about “Africans”? I see no mention of Africans in the article only “immigrants”. You were very quick to link “living in trees” to “Africans”. You must be racist to immediately assume that Africans dwell in trees…. Your fake foreign accent is also very offensive – Your IP address should be banned because this isn’t the first racist comment you’ve left on this blog…
You are correct. I find the comments made by ‘Africa is Older than Greece’ highly racist and this is coming from someone who lives in Africa. This person is wittingly or unwittingly insulting both Africans & Greeks with the wording that is used. Perhaps some study of both African & Hellenic history would do this person some good. Furthermore many educated Africans do not speak or write in the manner portrayed by this poster, many are doing their best to better themselves and his/her comment is definitely in poor taste.
Unfortunately, the owner of this blog allows racists of this kind to spout their hate speech. There doesn’t seem to be a “banning policy” for offensive posters (there isn’t even a “warning policy”, from what i can gather).
Racists and bigots are free to spout their racist filth on here anonymously to their heart’s content. Especially if it’s against Greeks. There are hundreds of examples of intolerance and hatred towards the Greek culture and southern Europeans in general on this blog.
And bigots like “Singapore Sling” or “ching, chang, chong” or “Africa is older than Greece” as he has now re-named himself, is just another example of the continuing hate speech and offensive comments being allowed on this blog…
I am aware of the bigots you mention. Quite frankly the hate or ignorance they show for Hellenic & Southern European culture is simply a projection of how culturally bankrupt they are. They are truly unfortunate and there isn’t much we can do for them.
In a way I am glad that the owner of this blog doesn’t ban such comments because it allows these silly little hypocrites to crawl out of the woodwork. At the very least, intelligent readers of this blog will be able to tell who the real racists are in the end.
Dear deviousdiva,
I think it’s probable that Mr. Karatzaferis’ ancestors were living in trees and hunting buffaloes while ancient Greeks were building their altars. That’s more than obvious if you think about the line of thought of LAOS members: Crash, Kill and Destroy anyone we label as “enemy” of our inner-group (e.g. Nation or Ideology).
It’s sad if you think that millions of people around the world still think this way… I am wondering if anything has changed in the past million years, since -as we can see- animal instincts still prevail.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by toomany tribbles, thedeviousdiva. thedeviousdiva said: deviousdiva blogged Laos Against Citizenship: I am intrigued to know which people were living in trees while Greek… http://bit.ly/8HwJyg [...]
How much room in Europe to take back the anti-indian euro-americans?
http://clandestinenglish.wordp.....tizenship/
Laos is fucking nazis and here is their practice:
http://libcom.org/news/antirac.....s-23012010
Apologies if this is OT. We are an indian family (2 + 1 child), planning to visit greece in May. We are planning to hire a car and drive north to Ioannina – Meteora – Olympus and back to athens in a big circle. We love going off the main track and driving through and stopping at small towns.
Is there any possibility of facing any hostility as we are quite brown skinned ? Are there any do’s and dont’s to avoid potential trouble ?
I’m not suggesting all greeks are racist, but there are always a few exceptions everywhere, certainly in India too.
I just want to know if as a tourist there are any common sense precautions I should take.
Otherwise very excited as this is our first trip to Greece. Always wanted to visit.
In reply to Dovin;
I am a British Indian currently living in rural Greece not far from the areas you are intending to visit. A couple of years ago I married my Greek wife whom I met at university in the UK. Having spent our formative years in the UK, we decided to move back to her small town and eventually we tied the knot. I have been here for nearly 4 years now but have been visiting Greece for over 11 years annually. As part of our wedding celebration we invited over 150 Indian family members to our town who stayed for varying periods of time and then travelled in and around Greece afterwards.
Although occasionally you may feel the gaze of people in small rural towns it is not out of hostility – it is merely out of curiosity. (The same thing happened to a blond girl that was travelling with me in India – she was constantly surrounded by Indian men starring at her out of curiosity). The Greek nation is a very hospitable country for families – it is safe – people generally mean well. Culturally Greeks and Indians are not that dissimilar is family, cultural, and social attitudes and customs. There are no do’s and don’ts – just be. If you are open and confident and leave your preconceptions and judgements behind you will have an amazing road trip around this part of Greece. Enjoy your time and be sure to visit again.
You’ll have absolutely no problems at all in Greece or any country in southern Europe. You’d have more problems if you visited the UK, especially if you walk into any country pub or restaurant. You’ll find that the whole pub will go silent when your brown face enters the room.
I’m sure you’ll enjoy your vacation in Greece.
@dovin
I don’t believe you will encounter ANY problems as a tourist in Greece. Racist incidents are still, thankfully, extremely rare and are mostly confined to neo-nazis attacking immigrants in the inner city.
You have chosen a fantastic route (not that the rest of Greece isn’t pretty fabulous). Enjoy your holiday and I’d love to hear about your adventures !
Thanks for the replies, I have booked the tickets for an 18 day trip including 4 days for santorini and other islands at the end of the trip.
I’m quite impressed by the open discussions and efforts by Greek citizens to address the racism issue in your country. In too many places such problems are swept under the carpet, mainstream is too scared or does not care enough to respond and it is allowed to grow out of hand, including I’m sad to say, in india.
I hope the children born in Greece will be able to get Greek citizenship. I wasn’t born in Canada though my brother and sister were. However, I was just two when I came from India. I can’t imagine how awful it would be not to be allowed to be a Canadian citizen. If you grow up in a place, you become a part of that place. I only went back to India once and quite frankly don’t care if I never set foot there again due to the way members of minority groups are tortured and killed there with the blessings of government institution and the mainstream public. At times, I have felt I don’t belong anywhere and even was thinking of moving to some other country, Scotland, Israel???. I realized though that whatever one tries to run away from is usually waiting where one runs to as well as I traveled in Scotland (loved it there, great people who even opened up a museum during a holiday in one town just for me but it too was a place where not everyone was perfect). I am glad to be a Canadian though at times I am disgusted with the species Homo Sapiens in general.
Well, i am a pakistani immigrant, i am an ancestor of Xerxis, Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam , King of Kings, and i would never accept any western nationality. After all, everyone has to be proud of his ancestors. Nevertheless, i will continue staying in the EU (Greece) and work, and one day i will settle back to my village in Pakistan.
Hello Hasan,
I hope that someday you will be able to go back to your village in Pakistan. Many immigrants do end up going back. My father used to have the same dream but I think he waited a bit too long to go back. When we went to Punjab, India on a visit, I was 15. He said he took us just to decide if we wanted to stay there, and that he would ensure I got a seat there in a medical school. I made no comments of course for he is a crazy character in some ways, but back home in Canada I told him NO WAY. His sister actually took her family along to stay FOR GOOD. Well they ended up coming back after a year (like others I have seen with the same ambitions). She and her hubby came back because the kids refused to go to school or do anything except sit on these stairs for a whole year from morning to night, even when slapped by their grannie (she was mine too, not a very nice old woman at times. She wasn’t too impressed with me either when I broke and slashed things that had been given to them for my mother’s dowry , but she didn’t dare slap me.)
As for not accepting a western nationality, I guess you have a nation that does look after your interests. I am a Sikh and I don’t see how India has ever looked after our interests except when we did have our own rule for a short period of time. For centuries before that we were persecuted – at one point it was even the law in India for all Sikhs to be killed on sight and one Sikh head on a pole worth a year’s pay when turned into the authorities. Winston Churchill urged Sikhs to form their own nation, basically said if we did our light would shine in the world and if we didn’t, our feet would be cut off -even wanted a military treaty. The dude was right. So was the father of your nation, for he also warned Sikhs of a bad fate. Sikh leaders of the time were far too stupid and the mistakes of people like that have people weep tears of blood for generations.
I have nothing against the west though I do appreciate that a stateless people who are in a state/s that oppresses that can be seen in the terms of their oppressors the entire world over due to international trade relations. India has often been able to interfere in Sikh affairs within Canada. For instance, the foreign affairs minister at one time actually spoke against a Sikh chair at a university, saying India wouldn’t like it. However, while such problems can sometimes occur, western nations are generally nations that keep their people safe and there is dignity and freedom and equality. In India in some places, Sikhs must register with the authorities if they get baptized. Tens of thousands have been killed in the most gruesome ways in the last couple of decades, one was even boiled to death. And it isn’t just Sikhs, Moslems and Christians also get killed. Christian nuns get raped, paraded naked, churches destroyed, etc. The police turns a blind eye, the judiciary usually fails to punish these people.
Also why wouldn’t I take on a western nationality even if there was a Sikh state that promoted Sikh dignity in other nations instead of actively working to destroy it as India does. Many people compare Sikhs to Jews and I do too for we have a similar history of centuries of persecution. There is an Israel now but not all Jews choose to live in it. I grew up here in Canada. I love the land. It is the melting snow in spring and the frosty e boughs in winter that make up my veins, not the nature of India. I love the Canadian people too. I am thankful for the laws and my rights and freedom. I would die for Canada if I had to. Canada is one of the most civilized nations in the world.
All immigrants would like to return back to their villages. If the conditions, back there, are not good (peole being attacked or even killed)due to hatered between different groups, the solution is the “european way”: Vast amounts of money come here, to ensure that all media say 24 hours a day that nobody can even touch another man just because he/she speaks onother language. 24 hours, they broadcast the same. Day and night. For years. So today, if a greek policeman touches an immigrant, he will lose his/her job. Automatically. How can we do the same to my country, Pakistan, and make things, there, like they are in Europe or Canada? Can’t we give enough money do do it?
Money will never do the trick, Hasan. I took a sociology course on the politics of developing nations at the University of British Columbia. I was quite surprised to discover that enough money leaves these countries to foreign bank accounts in a couple of years to pay off their national debts. The problems run far deeper than money. Corruption and leaders who only care about themselves and don’t tackle the problems that need tackling are a part of the problem. Foreign policies of countries like the US are a big part of it too. Your country for example follows the pattern of the states that swing from dictatorship to democracy and back again. It is in the trade interests of other countries for there to be dictators that cut down on public spending with a heavy hand if people rise up. My professor for this course, whom the whole class liked and respected, was a man named Mohammed from Iran. He said he had only one hope that there ever would be a solution, that the heart of the west would be touched and it would have mercy on these countries.
Hasan i hope more Pakistani immigrants in Greece think the same way as you and will never ask for greek citizenship.Because frankly the idea of havin a large Greek-Pakistani minority in the future makes me feel very uncomfortable.
I’d feel the same, Crusader, if my country flooded with, for example, russians. Plase tell me the problems you face.
Also, Crusader, if i accepted your nationality, i’d have to join your army and maybe have to fight moslem Turkey. I’d never do this job.
You studied sociology on the politics of developing nations at the University, Gurmit. What did they teach you? You must have an answer to my question. You know, money worked pretty well in the country of Greece, as i said before. What about sanctions?
Dear blogger, on the right of the screen and under “Recently Added Blogs” you place a blog:
* Atheists
I beg for your excuse, but such a blog (Atheists) might be an insult to muslim people.
Can you please delete it from the screen?
Some of the people who comment here are either very stupid or think that the readers are. The former may be true but the latter definately isn’t.
The fake names and anti-immigrant/muslim sentiments are childish and tiresome.
If you really have something to say, why don’t you just say it, instead of this silliness.
“Sam Green”,
Why don’t you allow the Indian and Pakistani gentlemen to talk to each other without your interference? Keep your nose out of everybody’s business – if you have something of value to say, then say it and stop filling this blog with your inane nonsense and troublemaking.
We all know that you are the same American idiot who populates this forum with a thousand different identities to spread your anti-Greek sentiments. You don’t have the courage to keep one identity because you’re frightened in case someone engages you and takes you to town – you are the epitome of cowardice.
If there is any doubt about this, DD can do an IP check. she’ll find that the Pakistani and the Indian chap are legitimate posters (with different IPs) whereas you are the same troll who has been trolling this blog for years with your dumb hate-filled muck-spreading…
Sam Green is the same American idiot who complained to us about the staff of an Athenian Hotel. Can you believe this idiot was offended when the staff asked him to dress more appropriately to his surroundings? He was waltzing around the lobby of a five star Hotel in scruffy SWEATPANTS playing computer games on his laptop on the hotel sofa – he was surrounded by dignitories and people of class and he was slouching around the lobby in jogging pants! This shabby and scruffy idiot had the temerity to suggest that the Greek staff who told him to dress more appropriately, were being nasty to him because he was an American and not because he was dressed like a mental patient. What an idiot.
My friends, there is a big problem in my country (and its’ neighbouring countries). (And this problem has become your problem, too and we have to find some solution). (In my country) State allows hatered between groups and the police are unwilling to instill order. As a result people live insecure lives, are in danger of being beat or even killed and they leave the country to other, safer, countries. I proposed that money would do the job, because journalists mould minds. I do not believe that “enough money leaves these countries to foreign bank accounts in a couple of years to pay off their national debts”. I am talking about money spent in order to do the job, not about money lent to the government. Please read again what i have said about Greece and tell me your opinion.
Hello Hasan. Stabilization and living-together in your country is a bet we have to win. What must happen is: One by one the countries of your neighbourhood must be new states of the US, or of the EU. I mean new states for real, not colonies. Like Hawaii is a state and not a colony, in the same way. American and European law system must be established and obeyed.
Mr. Joe Black, if I am the one you were referring to as an Indian gentleman, you are wrong on both counts. I ain’t a gentlemen and I ain’t Indian either. Not that I can blame you for not knowing the gender from my name.
Hasan,if you are indeed so, I have no answers for your question. Do your own research, explore, talk with people who are in “third world” politcs, get to know the ins and outs of IMF, the goose that lays the giant golden eggs of interest (I commend Greece for deciding not to borrow from this institution and wanting to solve its own financial problems; I also commend the P.M. for wanting to give citizenship to second generation immigrants)etc. The only thing I learned in university that was worth learning was how to learn on my own. Right now I am learning Greek. It is such a beautiful language that I say some words over in my mind just to appreciate the sheer beauty. If ever I win the lottery, I plan to move to Greece – for peace and freedom from the bondage of relatives who think they need to run my life for me. I came to Greece way back on a high school tour. Some books got me interested in it again even though they are set in pseudo-classical times. A lot of folks want to live in the world of those books.
Gurmit, I was referring to Indoevro.
Pap, are you raving mad?
Joe Black, in life we are not looking for ideal solutions but just for the best ones. Maybe the best among not so good solutions. Now, make a supposition. Hawafantastii is a faraway land, and is not a US state. Corrupion and bad governing make people leave this land and flee to the US. The government sends an application to become a US state. Tell me a reason why Hawafantastii would’t be another US state, american law system established and obeyed, solution found, flee stopped, prosperity come to the land.
Gurmit, can you write in greek characters? Leave an e-mail.
Pap, i think that your idea is good, but difficult to be applied. Until that time, there is something much more simple that we can do. Give prizes. Is trere a journalist that says all day long that all people are equal and that hatered must be abolished (the way it happens here in Greece for 10 years) ? He gets a prize of 5.000 dollars. Is there a priest or a mayor or a police general who says he same? He gets another prize.
You omit to mention the reason why Hawafantasii would be in such a bad a state. Hawafantasii is probably suffering from a war which America created for it’s own interests (Afghanistan, Iraq). Hawafantasii is probably controlled by a corrupt government who steals from government coffers and neglects the welfare of it’s people, a corrupt government which is supported by the USA which has installed this puppet government via the CIA (Chile, Costa Rica, Ukraine, Georgia, House of Saud). Hawafanasii’s only valuable commodity is probably oil or precious stones which has been monopolised by US corporations and Hawafantasii’s natural assets are plundered by the corrupt government and sold to US corporations for a pittance, leaving nothing for the people (Nigeria, Uganada, Congo). Hawafantasii is in need of infrastrusture development but any monies received from the UN development funds are stolen by the CIA-installed corrupt government and poured into private accounts while the state of Hawafantasii needs to borrow funds at extortionate interest rates from US banks and US government bonds where the interests rates are astronomical, leaving Hawafantasiians in a state of PERMANENT DEBT which they can never repay – this leaves Hawafantsii with no infrastructure, no schools, no medical care, no jobs, no security and and having to leave their country to seek a better life. Why would non-americans want to become Americans when they have a perfectly good country which is being PLUNDERED and RAPED by the US? The Afghans are showing that they DO NOT WANT Americans on their land and are actively fighting to get them off their land. When the Russians fought the Afghans to gain access to their oil routes, you called them “Mujahedeen” (freedom fighters), but now the US is fighting them, they suddenly became “Taliban” – but they’re the SAME FREEDOM FIGHTING PEOPLE!!
So much for your “apply to become a US state” policy – they don’t want to be an American state – this would be the ultimate shame for them. They hate your greedy, decadent culture, they hate your governments raping their countries and leaving them nothing. The reason they come to America is to seek a better life but if you stopped meddling in their countries affairs and stopped installing your preferred choice of corrupt politicians, the people of Hawafantasii wouldn’t need to come to America or become American.
If America became totally isolationist and kept it’s hands off other countries affairs, then the world would be a much better place. But American greed is just too much…
WOW. Just wow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Hawafantasii is a real place.
Hundreds of Hawafantasii’s such as Ecuador, Nigeria and Indonesia exist and are being systematically raped by the American Corporations..No wonder Hawafantasiians hate America.
“Go Home Yankee!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Joe Black, sorry for assuming you were talking about me.
Pap, I am having problems using Greek characters in e-mails. In fact, I had to use my scanner to send my conversation exchange partner in Greece a Greek letter. I don’t know too much yet because I just started learning in January. I went to a play put on by the Greek Community Centre of Toronto called “Liar Wanted” about ten days ago. I actually understood 9 words (I knew more words but they were not in the play). I hope that for the next Greek play I will understand at least a hundred words. There are about 240,000 people of Greek origins in Canada and about 90,000 in Ontario. I might be moving back to British Columbia in a couple of months. There are only about 20,000 Hellenes there but they have a community centre too. Check out http://www.theatre-nefeli.com for scenes from the play. Speaking of Greek plays, I did take Greek tragedies in university just for fun (my majors were English literature and psychology then I did a B.Ed.). I loved Oedipus Rex and among other things saw Oedipus as someone who changed citizenship because he was dissatisfied with his own (city) state.
Hello Hasan,
I took a look at your idea about the media. You seem to have made a connection between police officers losing their jobs if they harm immigrants because of the power of the media.
Here are my disconnected thoughts about the media (it is 3:20 am here in Ontario, so they may be a little bizarre and quite disconnected).
The Media:
Some years ago, I used to think that if I could invent anything in the world, I would invent a device to mess up the news. I believe the media is responsible for more good than ill with its immense power to manipulate millions of people.
The mass media like many other modern institutions has replaced older ones. One that it has replaced, and this is well known, is the institution of public punishment. I read this story one time, “An Earthquake in Chile” by a guy whose name I think was Henry Von Kleist, some German dude. In the story some person (or was it more than one) were to be punished publicly in some nasty way. A woman whose house overlooked the site where they were to be killed, actually rented out her windows to spectators. I view the glass of our tv screens as being like her windows whenever I see the media trying to shame individuals or groups. It also makes me think of those messengers riding on horseback in ancient times to warn people when it gives news about local storms and dire situations.
The media is also a part of what this French dude Louis Althuser (spelling I have forgotten I think) terms the ideological state apparatus. The government does not just control people through the “Repressive State apparatus” of the army, the police, jail guards, people in psych wards and schools who manhandle patients and students, etc. It also controls people through ideological means such as music,literature, education, the family, religion, etc. I do not think that any media affiliated with the state can really move ahead of the political context of the state it is affiliated with, though exceptions sometimes arise in any arena.
It would be really interesting to dissect what the media is and also what national identity is (I often see it being related to blood, land, and collective memories, but does it always have to be?) Anyway, now I will try to go to sleep after chatting with my brother who has to stay up all night to finish some assignment or other. I always feel I am helping him if I stay up too when he has to (he is in law school and trying to help some refugees as a part of a clinical course).
Greece is a great place for vacations, especially in summer. I really love the beach there
Katzaferis is a Turkish name, therefore I challenge his Greekness.
“Greece belongs to its history: We were building the Parthenon when they were still living in trees.”
This Turk, Katzaferis, forgets that most of us ‘Greeks’ are Albanian Arvanites, Vlachs, Slavs or Orhtodox Turks like him and Karamanlides.
“Nikos Arvanatis”,
You are not Greek at all. You spelled the name Karatzaferis wrong (I don’t think any Greek would have done that). You are the same American troll who assumes false identities to cause trouble on this blog. BUSTED!
So all Greeks spell names correctly? Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa