Debate on religious symbols intensifies
The public debate about whether crucifixes and religious icons should be displayed in Greece’s classrooms is set to intensify after it was revealed yesterday that the country’s Ombudsman received several complaints about infringement of religious freedoms.
Four sets of parents have asked for religious symbols to be removed from their children’s classrooms and one pupil has filed a complaint about her school making her attend religious education classes.
The issue of whether crosses and icons should be hung in schools, as well as other public service offices, has been a subject of discussion since last December when the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled that the presence of crucifixes in classrooms was a breach of human rights after hearing a case brought by a mother from Italy.
“We believe that the European Court of Human Rights ruling on the removal of religious symbols from Italian schools must also be applied by Greece,” said Panayote Dimitras, spokesman for the Greek Helsinki Monitor human rights watchdog.
The possible implications of the ECHR decision for Greece prompted the Greek Orthodox Church to immediately declare its opposition to any effort to remove religious symbols from public buildings. However, Justice Minister Haris Kastanidis admitted at the time that Greece could not ignore the court’s ruling if it stands.
The complaints filed with the Ombudsman could also end up at the ECHR and are certain to stoke debate in Greece. “Religious symbols are part of our country’s cultural heritage, which cannot be shaped by legislation,” said theologian Stavros Yiagazoglou. “In a democratic country, we must respect the rights of minorities but of the majority as well.”
I am very interested in what you think about the statement by the theologian Stavros Yiagazoglou. While I agree that religious symbols are part of the country’s heritage and history, I still do not believe that they have any place in schools or in public buildings. There are countless churches and other religious sites that maintain that religious heritage. Even the flag has a cross on it. I cannot see what damage removing crucifixes from classrooms can possibly do. What do you think ?
Technorati Tags: greece, religion, freedom, crucifix, icons,
Crucifixes in School on December 22nd, 2009
Religious Icons on November 25th, 2009
Religious Symbols on November 13th, 2009
A Mosque in Athens ? on October 9th, 2009
Makeshift Mosques Update on March 16th, 2009
Loading...
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by toomany tribbles, thedeviousdiva. thedeviousdiva said: deviousdiva blogged Religious Symbols: Via Kathimerini Debate on religious symbols intensifies The public debate a… http://bit.ly/52sgk7 [...]
I totally agree with you. Crucifixes and icons do not belong in the classroom. Anyone is free to practise their faith in the privacy of their own home or at a place of worship, but schools are neither of the above. Now that I’ve got a child, issues like this bother me even more than they used to.
I wonder whether Greeks will ever realise how irrationally stubborn they’ve become, and how this behaviour ends up violating other people’s rights.
Saigon
I think the Italian judgment behind this is just about the worst judgment I’ve seen from the European Court of Human Rights – the sort that gives “human rights” a bad name and makes me ashamed to be in any way associated with it. Not that I usually find myself thinking this, but I do on this occasion …
Those who have no faith are in a tiny minority in all European countries, perhaps especially in Greece. I usually support minority rights, but not in this case where the minority are preventing the majority from expressing their beliefs – at least if this view prevails.
You may say how can having a cross in a classroom be expressing your beliefs, but if that is the case, how can having a cross in a classroom prevent you from expressing your beliefs? Those who have no faith at all may find it offensive that the culture of a country is tied up with the religions practised in it, but it happens to be true in every country in the world where people have been allowed to practise their faiths freely, and in many countries where faiths were driven underground by represssive governments. It is an escapable fact that the Orthodox faith is part of the Greek heritage, just as the Anglican faith is part of the UK heritage. Many of the best schools in the UK are “church” schools, even if they are funded by the state, and every year thousands of primary school children take part in nativity plays and enjoy dressing up as Mary, as a sheep or as a wise man, and there are crosses and pictures of Bible scenes all over the schools. It is very much part of the tapestry of Britain. Orthodox symbols are found in schools, in courts, and in other public buildings in Greece, because Greece is, fundamentally, an Orthodox country. Children have lessons in religious education, and paint pictures which are displayed on classroom walls. Are these to go too?
And yet this judgment could play havoc with those harmless practices. Nobody is saying that people should be forced to practise faiths that they do not believe in, but I find it difficult to believe that the Finnish mother in this Italian case seriously believed her two teenage sons were being harmed by seeing a crucifix on the wall in school. Is she so challenged by views different to her own? How very fascist of her!
I find it very disturbing that a panel of judges could agree that her sons’ rights to believe in nothing at all were being threatened. Have they nothing better to do? (Rhetorical question, because there is a back log of 80,000 + cases in the court, often concerning serious human rights abuses). The notion of a visiting Brit wining a case in an Islamic country to have Muslim symbols removed from schools is just laughable. Not only because it would never happen, but because the arrogance of the visiting Brit in requesting the removal would be extraordinary.
This judgment may still not have been translated from French. I kind of hoped that it would languish there, largely unread, gathering cobwebs.
I totally agree, Margaret.
I am a firm believer in the adage: “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”. If you don’t like the culture of a country, then leave. No-one is forcing you to stay there.
So Greeks who object to religious symbols being displayed in classrooms should leave Greece…?
They should respect the will of the majority. Isn’t that’s what democracy is all about?
Of course, religious maniacs and nationalists are unhappy with this excellent judgement by the ECtHR. There is a large body of people across Europe who were brought up as Christians but do not wish to be affiliated to the Church, nor do they wish their children to be indoctrinated into the propaganda.
So much for Margaret’s conception of human rights — only as long as she agrees with the ideas. Other people’s ideas can be ignored, it seems.
And no, Cinzano, democracy is not about imposing the will of 51% of the population on the remainder: it is about finding solutions that most people can be happy with while trying to respect the rights of those who disgree. I realise that Greek politics is nothing like that, which is why it is not democratic.
The whole religious symbols matter is just foolish. People must be very weak willed in their faith or lack of faith to be disturbed by such things. It is a different story if non-orthodox christian children are forced to take part in religious rites or the really bad religious education in Greece (which needs heavy reform), or if religion is used as discrimination, but that is illegal period. Being exposed to the symbols of a faith is not the same as being exposed to the rules of a faith. By that logic orthodox Christians should ask that municipalities should strike down any pagan symbols from their crests (like the owl, the dolphin, ancient temples etc).
A multicultural society cannot, and will not be built on bans. None have done so and none will ever. It can only be built on tolerance from all sides, dialogue, and to be frank some stiff skin IMHO.
@ Cinzano
Respecting the will of the majority often favours social conservatism of course. If the will of the majority had been respected, a number of EU countries would still have the death penalty and homosexuality would be illegal…
@ Konstantinos
Compared to the numerous problems and failings of the education system in Greece, the issue of religious symbols seems fairly insignificant, and my gut instinct is that there’s no real harm in having a picture of Christ or the Panagia in a classroom. Remember though that we are talking about children here, not adults, and I do wonder whether the prominence of such symbols in schools might not reinforce any sense that non-X.O. children have of being second-class citizens. (I am thinking in particular of Greek Catholics and Jews, here.)
pj if people feel like that (which they do) then believe me, just taking out the cross or icons, will not fix that feeling. The economachia did not happen because just of icons, but because of their symbolic power. Even if my illustrious probable ancestors took the icons down (Phrygian Dynasty) it did not abate their symbolism. If the cross and icons symbolizes discrimination, just taking it down will not end the feeling. If on the other hand one combats the real causes of discrimination, then people will not care if icons or crosses are put in classrooms. This is all just pyrotechnics and smokescreens. Even if the cross or icons are taken out, then the state can just replace them with the Republic’s coat of arms, which of course is a cross, you want to bet if the EUCHR will dare to order a member state to take down it’s own coat of arms from it’s own property? Thus in the end the symbol will be there, a lot of hatred will have been garnered, and the situation would be far more worst for minority and immigrant students and the relations between Greeks and migrants.
Konstantinos, what you say about symbols of discrimination is quite true of course, but I wasn’t in particular thinking of crosses and icons in that way. I was more trying to put myself in the position of a very young child (perhaps as young as four) for whom an icon in a classroom may provide the first inkling that in some way he or she does not fit or is not like other children.
While I am not a child-psychologist I would warrant to say, that barring previous experiences that tie the symbol with acts of discrimination(and for a child really, bullying) a child will not associate a symbol with fit or not fit, except if adults (the usual culprits)make it for it. I have never seen young children show any problem in playing with children of other races. I don’t think it even registers in a negative way for them. It is once they are poisoned by adults that they show discriminatory behavior, beyond that relating to physical size.
But then again, I am not a child-psychologist, if you can furnish academic articles or books that make the case that children can register problems of fit, without the medium of adult behavior, I would like to see it.
You may be right in everything you say (and I am not a child psychologist either), so let’s look at the question from a different point of view. If we accept that discrimination exists, then if a particular faith is clearly given a privileged position in schools, doesn’t that somehow set a seal of approval on any discriminatory behaviour? (Not that symbols in classrooms are the most obvious intrusion of religion into schools, of course. I would rather see morning prayers, trips to church, and other forms of indoctrination done away with, and an overhaul of the religious education textbooks.)
Yes, but taking down the symbol will not solve a thing. Just make it worst IMHO.
Education reform is what is needed.
I am just airing my opinion in general and not responding to any of the above responses. I am not a Christian but a Sikh, who grew up in Canada. I am also a teacher. People of my religion who choose to get baptised have to wear religious symbols on their persons. In some countries,religious Sikhs get discriminated against by not being allowed to wear their religious symbols in schools and other public places. I am sure that religious Sikhs would rather have crosses remain in classrooms in Christian countries and themselves be allowed to wear their religious symbols in the classrooms. Sikhism stresses that God doesn’t want there to be just one religion and that everyone has the right to worship as they please. One of the founders of Sikhism was even tortured and killed for dying for the right of people of another religion to worship as they pleased when this particular group was told it had to convert to Islam or die. I personally don’t understand why a cross would be offensive to people in a country where the vast majority of people are Christian.
Sorry, I left some thoughts unsaid ( kind of late at night here in Ontario, Canada and only three hours of sleep last night).
Basically, what I mean is that I don’t understand why people of religions other than Greek Orthodox Christianity should be offended by crosses in Greek classrooms. If I were in Greece, and if I had a child in a class with a cross, I would tell him/her that it is ok for him/her to feel different. We have to accept our own differences and not want to be the same as everyone else.
Up to 1981, passages from the Old and New testaments were read in Public schools in Canada in my home province of British Columbia. They didn’t offend me at all or the other Sikh kids (we were the only ethnic minority in the class) but the Jehovah Witness kid would leave and stand outside in the hall until summoned to come back when the reading was done. One day, in Grade 4, I took a book of Sikh religious stories in English to class. The teacher asked me what my favourite story was and read it to the class even though she was a very devout Christian. I think it is more a teacher’s attitude than anything else that can make a child feel inferior or validated as an equal human being.
In Toronto, there is a lot of ethnic and religious variety in the schools. I am a substitute teacher and go to a lot of different schools. It doesn’t matter to me what religion any kid is. Sometimes some on special days want to share their religious and other traditions and I make time for them to speak about them. We read stories about Hannukah, Divali, etc. to make people feel included. Oddly, I haven’t seen Christmas stories. If I had my own class, I would make sure my books also included Christmas books.
Anyway, just out of curiosity, what are the problems in schools in Greece? Some we have here include overcrowded classrooms, a lack of respect for teachers by students , drugs, and violence (armed police officers were to start patrolling dozens of schools in Toronto after a student got shot in a school). I hear in Europe, other than Britain, kids are very respectful to teachers. Is that true in Greece?
Problems in Greek schools include (but are not limited to) appalling lack of investment in infrastructure (buildings, equipment); poorly paid teachers; a lack of organisational structure that regularly leaves pupils without books and schools without teachers at the start of every academic year and fails to provide cover for teachers who are ill or on leave; an outdated teaching ethos based on rote-learning; poorly written textbooks which teachers are obliged to use; an overloaded curriculum; the regular closing of high schools due to their occupation by demonstrating pupils who refuse to open them until their demands are met; and a lack of sanctions for children who misbehave. In high schools especially, there is certainly a lack of respect for teachers, violence and problems with drugs. Such are the (perceived) inadequacies of the education system in Greece that most who can afford to do so send their children to private schools (although some of the same problems exist there) and/or evening schools and/or hire private tutors for their children (all at great expense, naturally). This reliance on cramming schools and private tuition compounds the lack of respect for teachers in day schools.
Basically, the education system in Greece is a complete and utter mess.
At least in Greece, Sikh’s turbans are not knocked off their heads by their out-of-control schoolkids, like i witnessed many times in the UK. I even saw a teacher laugh when a kid called a Sikh “clothhead” before pulling his turban off and throwing it down the staircase. I can still remeber the mocking smile etched on the teacher’s face as the turban tumbled down the stairs…Nothing was done about that, not even a detention for the offending shoolboy.
There’s a lot of “turning a blind eye to racism” in UK schools. You’ll find many instances of racism and bullying behaviour in schools in the UK by all races, against all races (blacks, “pakis”, “ragheads”) and there isn’t anything being done about it because teachers are too frightened to get involved in any sort of investigation between the races. It’s just not worth their time or effort – it’s far easier to turn a blind eye and pretend they didn’t see it.
By the way, my child goes to a secondary comprehensive school in London where a Catholic Assembly is held every morning and there are crucifixes in every room – we attend nativity and religious plays every Christmas – these are not compulsory and if anyone has a different religion they can sit out of the assemblies and hymn-singing. Muslims often interrupt their lessons to go the prayer-room and pray. It works both ways.
Let’s not go on like Greece and Italy are the only countries where religious symbols are present in the classrooms. In fact, instead of looking down on these countries for being “less-advanced” than our own, we should be learning from family-oriented countries of the Southern mediterranean, especially in how highly their children regard their education, most kids want to go to University (in the UK, every kid wants to skip school and become famous), and we have alot to learn how kids in Greece, Italy and Spain respect their elders and run errands when asked by their parents (in the UK you’d probably be told to “fuck off”).
Kids in the Southern Med do not congregate on street corners and drink alcopops until they’re blotto, kids in Greece don’t join gangs and carry knives, kids in Italy would never dream of mugging an old lady, kids in Spain do not hang around outside off-licences, begging adults to buy them booze, like kids in the UK do…
Education in the UK is in a much worse mess than Southern European countries – just one look at the kids produced by the UK education system will prove this…
I am wondering -sometimes just for fun and not sarcastically- why don’t we nail on the wall every possible religious symbol, if this is possible? Have days off in a UN style?
If we remove all christian religious symbols from school and then we have an e.g. hijabi classmate, what happens? Hard debate this is—
That being said, I was bored at school during religious class and morning prayer, and felt frustrated having to learn the technical names of priests clothing! Perhaps religious class should also be optional in the curriculum.
Thanks for hosting me,
Cheers