Justice Minister Haris Kastanidis admitted yesterday that Greece will have no choice but to remove religious icons from school classrooms and other public buildings if the European Court of Human Rights stands by a ruling it made earlier this month.
“If the European Court of Human Rights sticks to its original decision that religious symbols should be removed from all public buildings, then I think our country will have to adapt to the new situation arising from this decision,” said Kastanidis in response to a question from right-wing Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS) MP Asterios Rondoulis.
However, Kastanidis added that any change to the status quo, which sees icons of the Virgin Mary hung in classrooms, courtrooms and public service offices, would take place “only after agreement has been reached with the Church of Greece.”
However, it seems that the Church is highly unlikely to concede to the removal of icons or crucifixes from buildings.
The Church of Greece reacted angrily to such suggestions when it emerged earlier this month that the European Court of Human Rights had ruled that the presence of crucifixes in classrooms was a breach of human rights after hearing a case brought by a mother from Italy.
“It is not only minorities that have rights, the majority has them as well,” said the head of the Greek Church, Archbishop Ieronymos, adding that the matter would be discussed by the Holy Synod if necessary.
“Youngsters will soon not have any symbols to inspire and protect them,” said Bishop Nikolaos of Fthiotida. Bishop Anthimos of Thessaloniki said he hopes Greek officials will appeal any decision by the court in Strasbourg.
The European court found that the right of parents to educate their children according to their own beliefs, and children’s right to freedom of religion, were breached by the presence of a crucifix in classrooms.
Technorati Tags: greece, religion, icon, school, children, church, state
Religious Symbols on January 18th, 2010
Crucifixes in School on December 22nd, 2009
Religious Symbols on November 13th, 2009
A Mosque in Athens ? on October 9th, 2009
Makeshift Mosques Update on March 16th, 2009
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Typical Balkan comment…
i sense some anti-balkan bigotry in the tone of your last response.
more importantly what about that statement is not true?
Greece is neither a theocracy but neither is it fully secular..i. it has an official religion while allowing freedom of religion.
Wasn’t Greece part of Turkey? When did they become a country? I read an article that says the original name of Greece in ancient times was called Yunanistan. It makes no sense to me that Greek peoples seem so hostile to Turkey people but they appear so similar in appearance and customs.
Turkey people? TURKEY PEOPLE?
I didn’t know Turkey was an adjective. I guess, Yunanistan, that your knowledge of English is as good as your knowledge of history. Turkey people LOL.
Yunanistan is actually arabic in origin.
A stan is a like saying land of.
Yunanistan..is the land of the Yunani or in turkish Yunanli which simply means ionians/Greeks.
I assume you are joking though.. and saying Greece is backwards like Turkey or some such thing.
What do your statements have to do with this article?
I think Yunanistan is just Xenos aka MBE just fucking around.
Nothing.
Have a nice day.
All this talk about Turkey has made me hungry. I believe that the Leg or dark meat is the best part of the Turkey. This from years of Thanksgiving Grandma dinners. What this has to do with Greece I don’t know, but someone else brought up Turkey.
Happy Thanksgiving to all Greeks and Turkey people that live in the America. Why they would name a country after a bird is a question I knew anyways.
Honestly, (Turkey People aside) as a foreigner who lives in Greece, I don’t give a rodent’s posterior one way or the other about religious icons. What I want is that the country of Greece and Greeks follow rules.
For so many years, Greece has plugged their noses and stared at the sky toward the civilized European world by not enforcing rules like “Driving civilly, littering and turning Greece into a crap-can, and by not arresting/prosecuting anarchists for destroying property and a host of other infractions that anyone living in Greece longer than a minute knows about.
So, if Greece didn’t want to join Europe and play by civilized European rules, than get out of Europe and go back to the anarchy that Greece was post 1974. BUT, if you want to take European money, then you have to do what they say. You can’t have your Souvlaki and eat it too!
So if the European authorities tell you to stop smoking in public places, to take down your icons from public places, to NOT eat Lamb eyeballs, brains, or guts etc (can’t remember which part is outlawed by the EU??), and just follow the smooth order of the European authorities, THEN remember, you can always go back to the chaos that Greece was before Europe stepped in.
GREEK HELSINKI MONITOR (GHM)
Address: P.O. Box 60820, GR-15304 Glyka Nera
Telephone: (+30) 2103472259 Fax: (+30) 2106018760
e-mail: office@greekhelsinki.gr website: http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr
PRESS RELEASE
21 November 2009
Greece: Advocacy of religious neutrality of the Greek state
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) informs on a series of actions undertaken to advocate religious neutrality of the Greek state, as prescribed by the Greek Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.
1. The European Court of Human Rights condemned Greece on 21 February 2008 for violation of Article 9 (religious freedom) in combination with Article 13 (right to effective remedy) on account of the existence of the religious oath in Greek courts, after examining GHM’s application in the Case of Alexandridis vs. Greece. Five other similar applications have already been communicated to Greece and await judgments in 2010.
2. A parent via GHM applied to the European Court for Human Rights in August 2008 on account of the obligatory by law recording of religion on the child’s school leaving certificate (which moreover was recorded incorrectly in the specific case). The case is expected to be communicated to Greece in the coming months.
3. A GHM member appealed to the Greek Ombudsman regarding the obligatory recording of religion on applications for alien residence permits in Greece, despite the existence of a decision by the Data Protection Authority that this violates the corresponding data privacy law. The Ombudsman, on 24 August 2009, pointed out the matter to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which has not deigned to respond. Given that the letter to the Ministry was signed by Andreas Takis, then Deputy Ombudsman and now appointed General Secretary of Immigration Policy, it is hoped that he will see to resolving the issue.
4. GHM members, on 9 November 2009, asked that a Three-Member Appeals Court of Athens remove religious symbols (an icon of Jesus Christ and the New Testament) from its courtroom. The court ruled that this required legislative action to satisfy the demand, accepting with this decision the legitimacy of the demand.
5. Left-wing SYRIZA Parliamentarian Grigoris Psarianos, on 9 November 2009, in a parliamentary question directed at the Ministry of Education asked if it intended to proceed with removing religious symbols from public school classrooms and making morning prayer and church going optional activities that would take place outside regular school hours.
6. A GHM member, on 17 November 2009, asked the Greek Broadcasting Company (ERT) to cease commencing its daily programming with a prayer (that moreover precedes the national anthem). The Ombudsman has been asked to intervene.
7. A parent via GHM, on 19 November 2009, appealed to the Ombudsman for the removal of religious icons and the cessation of morning prayer in the child’s school.
8. Lawyers, members of the Green Party, on 19 November 2009, asked the administrations of the Thessaloniki Criminal and Civil Courthouse and the Thessaloniki Administrative Courthouse to remove religious symbols (icons of Jesus Christ and the New Testament) from its courtrooms.
Just go to Berlin and you’ll find many bars and clubs where nobody cares about if smoking is allowed or not. Also to drive a car will get funny as many high speed bikers blow the red light and even worse lots of them don’t have brakes (so called “fixed gear bikes”) while singing “running reds and killing peds”. Sure the peds don’t care about traffic “rules” too. And the best: the number of this year’s torched SUV’s reached a new record (www.brennende-autos.de – wait a few moments for upload). Hamburg is catching up right now, unclear if they’ll beat Berlin’s team.
But you’ll find hardly any foreigner who will come up with shit similiar to “Greece is so nice but would be much more nicer without greeks” ( every 2nd german tourist will tell that back home! )
Regarding European laws i can give you hope: Just go to Bavaria and you’ll find the crucifix in every class room and there are court battles about since 15 years.
European money is nice as long it comes from Siemens, unsanctioned by German courts. For Greece – in difference to the inventors in Germany or France – the Euro brought shit.
The Mafia is always best working there where they don’t need to kill that often!
And European Law: Just remember the Distomo case or in general how Germany refused to pay reparation.
Much more interesting is to find out more about the church selling “Vai” on Crete and parts of Anafi to some British tourism terrorists or the latest fascist progrom in Athens (Neos Kosmos)
For an anti-rascist blog it’s kinda disgusting for a Happy Thanksgiving as it comes from people you stole their land of.
fighting against terrorism since 1492
HOMELAND SECURITY
Panayote would you also say then that we should remove any depictions of Athena etc….
It silly to say this a human rights issue. You can still be an atheist or jew or muslim if there is cross in your classroom.
I do not think people should be forced to pray but why is to so terrible to tolerate the presence of religious symbols.
Athena and Zeus etc..are symbols of ancient greek religion and they are in public places..
Most Christians do not feel oppresed by that.
I think you could try to focus on real issues..
This is just some atheist or jew or muslim who wants to not have to tolerate the majority culture..
If the icons and crosses must go…then why would you not also say the flag must change..
remember it has a cross on it.
Most people even most reasonable non-religious people would think that is silly (to say change the flag because it ahs a religious symbol on it).
Religion is part of our heritage an culture both Orthodoxy and the ancient Greek religion. I do not say people should be forced to pray
but whats the big deal with having a symbol of the dominant or once dominant culture around?
Now that you mention it, perhaps Greece should add a crescent to the Greek flag
You could send the bill for new flags to Siemens.
Are you advocating some kind of Byzantine nationalism here? What’s after the crescent of the city of Byzantium, the double-headed eagle or even the single-headed one? Despicable!
well at least you have a sense of humor
This statement is totally wrong. This is not about intolerance. Let’s not make this about Jews or Muslims against Christians. It’s not. There are extremists of all these religions but this is not about them. The majority of the people in Greece are Orthodox and that is to be respected. No-one is asking for that to change.
No-one is advocating the removal of religion in Greece. No-one is saying that churches should be torn down. People should be free to choose their faith for themselves.
I have nothing against religious education (as long as it truly is education and not indoctrination and is not compulsory). What I have a problem with is the enforced daily prayers in schools, the enforced trips to church (which children get an absentee mark if they do not wish to attend which counts on their school record) and the presence of religious icons in public places. Why ? Because church and state should be separate. For me that’s what democracy should be. Religion or faith should be personal choice not a state issue.
This issue of removing religious symbols is about personal choice. My religious beliefs are private. Those of my child’s are private. If I want my child to be exposed to religious symbols and icons, I can take him to church, synagogue, mosque, house of worship.
I also believe that children have the right to make up their own minds about religion which is why religious education should be exactly that education, looking at all the different faiths in a fair and unprejudiced way.
My parents allowed me the freedom to explore different faiths to theirs. I made up my own mind based on an informed decision, by being free to ask questions and read material. The separation of church and state is not about destroying religion. It’s about the right to choose.
sorry that this does not exist in English but it addresses the isseus above
Το Ελληνικό Παρατηρητήριο των Συμφωνιών του Ελσίνκι (ΕΠΣΕ) δημοσιεύει στη συνέχεια τα πρακτικά της χθεσινής συζήτησης στη Βουλή για το αίτημα του ΕΠΣΕ για την απομάκρυνση των θρησκευτικών συμβόλων από τα σχολεία, τα δικαστήρια και τις δημόσιες υπηρεσίες, στα πλαίσια κοινοβουλευτικής ερώτησης του βουλευτή του ΛΑΟΣ Αστέριου Ροντούλη στην οποία απάντησε ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης, Διαφάνειας και Ανθρωπίνων Δικαιωμάτων Χάρης Καστανίδης.
http://www.parliament.gr/ergas.....091123.txt
Στη συνέχεια δημοσιεύει απόσπασμα ομιλίας του Αρχιεπισκόπου Αθηνών Ιερώνυμου που αναφέρεται στο ίδιο θέμα.
http://www.ecclesia.gr/greeknews/default.asp
Το ΕΠΣΕ επιθυμεί να κάνει τις ακόλουθες παρατηρήσεις:
1. Ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης επέμεινε πως η Ελλάδα οφείλει να εφαρμόζει τις αποφάσεις του Ευρωπαϊκού Δικαστηρίου Δικαιωμάτων του Ανθρώπου (ΕΔΔΑ) και θα εφαρμόσει και την απόφαση για την απομάκρυνση των θρησκευτικών συμβόλων όταν καταστεί οριστική. Το ΕΠΣΕ ελπίζει πως, συνεπής προς τη δέσμευση αυτή, ο Υπουργός θα καταθέσει άμεσα στη Βουλή νομοσχέδιο με τις απαραίτητες νομοθετικές ρυθμίσεις για την κατάργηση του θρησκευτικού όρκου, εφαρμόζοντας τη σχετική απόφαση καταδίκης της Ελλάδας από το ΕΔΔΑ στην προσφυγή του ΕΠΣΕ στην υπόθεση Αλεξανδρίδης κατά Ελλάδας. Το ΕΠΣΕ επισημαίνει πως η Επιτροπή Υπουργών του Συμβουλίου της Ευρώπης συζητά την 1 Δεκεμβρίου 2009 τη (μη) εφαρμογή από την Ελλάδα της απόφασης αυτής (βλπ. ημερήσια διάταξη στην ιστοσελίδα https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?Ref=CM/Del/OJ/DH(2009)1072&Language=lanEnglish&Ver=prel&Site=CM&BackColorInternet=9999CC&BackColorIntranet=FFBB55&BackColorLogged=FFAC75). Παράλληλα η Ελλάδα επί ενάμισι χρόνο περιφρονεί την Επιτροπή Υπουργών αρνούμενη να παράσχει την πληροφόρηση που της ζητείται (βλπ. ιστοσελίδα http://www.coe.int/t/DGHL/MONI.....ce_en.pdf). Ο Υπουργός έχει την ευκαιρία να αποκαταστήσει την εικόνα της χώρας απατώντας στην Επιτροπή Υπουργών και δημοσιοποιώντας την απάντησή του.
2. Ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης ανέπτυξε ορθά ότι το Σύνταγμα ταυτόχρονα αποτυπώνει την πραγματικότητα, ότι δηλαδή η Ανατολική Ορθόδοξος Εκκλησία είναι η επικρατούσα εκκλησία, αναφέρεται στην προαγωγή της θρησκευτικής συνείδησης και επιβάλλει την αρχή της ανεξιθρησκίας, άρα η προαγωγή της θρησκευτικής συνείδησης γίνεται σε ένα καθεστώς απόλυτου σεβασμού της θρησκευτικής ανεξιθρησκίας.
3. Ο Υπουργός Δικαιοσύνης ανέφερε ορθά ότι το αίτημα απομάκρυνσης των θρησκευτικών συμβόλων δεν έχει καμιά σχέση με την αφαίρεση του σταυρού από τις σημαίες των ευρωπαϊκών χωρών που αποτελούν εθνικά και όχι θρησκευτικά σύμβολα. Επειδή δε γνωρίζει –καθώς την ανέφερε ρητά- την παρέμβαση του ΕΠΣΕ ως τρίτου στο ΕΔΔΑ στην υπόθεση Lautsi κατά Ιταλίας, γνωρίζει πως και το ΕΠΣΕ κάνει το διαχωρισμό αυτό, σχολιάζοντας τοποθέτηση της Ιταλίας που επιχειρηματολόγησε με τρόπο ανάλογο για την παρουσία των σταυρών στις σημαίες.
4. Ο Αρχιεπίσκοπος κακώς αναφέρεται σε προκλητική στάση κάποιων που αγωνίζονται για την εξαφάνιση από τη ζωή μας της πίστης, των ιερών συμβόλων και του ήθους με το οποίο πορεύτηκε το γένος μας μέσα στην ιστορία. Στις περισσότερες δημοκρατίες της Ευρώπης και της Αμερικής η θρησκευτική ουδετερότητα της πολιτείας συνυπάρχει με συχνά έντονο θρησκευτικό συναίσθημα όλων των θρησκειών. Η κυρίαρχη θέση της Ορθόδοξης Εκκλησίας στον ελληνικό λαό την οποία αποτυπώνει το Σύνταγμα δεν εξαρτάται από την παρουσία θρησκευτικών συμβόλων και τη δόση θρησκευτικού όρκου στις υπηρεσίες της πολιτείας. Γι’ αυτό άλλωστε και, όπως καταγράφηκε σε δημοσκόπηση της VPRC που δημοσιεύτηκε στα «Επίκαιρα» της 20 Νοεμβρίου 2009, συμφωνούν με την απόφαση του ΕΔΔΑ 16% των Ελλήνων, που αναμφίβολα περιλαμβάνει ένα μεγάλο αριθμό Ορθοδόξων. Τέλος, επειδή συχνά γίνεται επίκληση του «δικαιώματος της πλειοψηφίας», ας σκεφτούν όσα άτομα το κάνουν πώς αυτό θα λειτουργούσε για παράδειγμα στην Τουρκία σε βάρος των δικαιωμάτων του Πατριαρχείου. Τα ανθρώπινα δικαιώματα δεν αποφασίζονται από πλειοψηφίες, γι’ αυτό και τόσο το Συμβούλιο Επικρατείας όσο και το ΕΔΔΑ επικύρωσαν την αφαίρεση του θρησκεύματος από τις ταυτότητες, με την οποία ήταν επίσης αντίθετη η πλειοψηφία της κοινής γνώμης.
What I have a problem with is the enforced daily prayers in schools, the enforced trips to church (which children get an absentee mark if they do not wish to attend which counts on their school record) and the presence of religious icons in public places. Why ? Because church and state should be separate. For me that’s what democracy should be. Religion or faith should be personal choice not a state issue.
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As far as I know..daily prayers are not forced..i.e. you do not have to participate you can stand quietly and respectfully while the majority does its thing.
But okay lets grant you that perhaps prayers should not be something that the non faithful should have to “endure” hearing or observing because school is school not a church.
The point is besides ICONs being religious symbols they are works of art and cultural artifacts. The presence of religious symbols should not be objectionable to minorities as a cultural and religious symbol that’s important to them and is going to be part of their buildings etc..A statue of athena in a museum funding by public taxpayer money does not offend me, even though I do not worship Athena.
AND YOU SIDE STEP THE QUESTION…where does it end…
THAT letter T on the Greek flag…newsflash is not a letter t it is a cross..which is a christian symbol.
******************************************************************
Should we remove flags from schools or the cross from the flag?
ANSWER THAT please..,………. You know how nonsensical it is to say the flag of the nation should not be in school, and/or that it should change.
But this is the same thing with religious symbols. they do not do anything to bother anyone. they are just there.
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This nation state was founded as an explicit homeland for ethnic Greeks and religion was always explicitly stated as officially Greek Orthodox.
Argentina as well as other nations like EU member Italy have official religions. With allowances for dissent..i.e. citizens can practice other faiths or no faith but the state acknowledges the majority culture/religion its role and place in the life of the majority.
Democracy means rule by the public/people. it does not say anything about separation of church and state. That is an American thing.
In Greece Church and State are not 100% separate.
I do not feel compelled or forced to go to church.
So what happens with the flag??
change it because it has a religious symbol?
Church and State should be separate in that the state should not interfere in religion but religion should be allowed to be expressed but not imposed in all forums.
…………………
Its weird to me why the presence of the symbols of the dominant culture is causing a huge uproar. I could see more concern about prayer in school. But even both those things do not compare to other issues in society.
Answer question…what about the flag?
it has a cross on it.
What happens with that in your version of a fair and just world?
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I think that the fact that the Greek flag incorporates a cross is fairly incidental; Britain’s Union Jack incorporates three of them. The point is that, like a statue of the goddess Athena, it is not a symbol of worship in the way that an icon or a crucifix is.
Post Disagreement: you just don’t get it, do you? The fact that the former Yugoslav countries of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia recently committed human rights atrocities, bloody wars and more over religion has passed you by. Or that the Greek, Turkish and Bulgarian atrocities less than a century ago in the name of religion or ethnicity are comparable with the Nazi atrocities but have never been prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity. All of these are Balkan problems, done in the name of national identity and religion. Just like Hitler.
Of course, the trivial thing of what name Macedonia should be “allowed” to have is of far more concern to Greeks… Let’s not worry about people’s lives, or violent torture, when we can argue about trivia.
Right. Just like Hitler. (Eye roll due to the lunacy of the comparison) So we must cleanse our minds and never again utter anything remotely suggesting ethnicity, religion, and race. Err…white race specifically, while all other ethnicities, religions, and races should be proud to be who they are. Because, as we all know, only whites are murderous religious zealots and all that. Everyone is in full agreement here, of course, as the “learned elder” has spoken.
What we need to do is make everyone equal and replace natural forms of distinction with false ones and put in place penalties for those who “just don’t get it”. Let’s see, who did this in the last century? Oh yes, the former Soviet Union and China. How did that work out for the 50-100 million murdered victims of such grandiose anti-Hitler ideology simply because they “just didn’t get it”? Too bad we can’t ask them.
NEEEEEEEEEEXXT tired old failed idea from the LOUT.
The real point is that this becomes an extremely steep slippery slope for the host nation. The next obvious point is there are these things with wings called planes. Anyone so offended should catch the next one out of the country.
Post Disagreement: you just don’t get it, do you?
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Actually I do and what you say below actually proves that a more homogeneous nation is more stable than a multireligious, multicultural, multiracial empire or superstate.
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The fact that the former Yugoslav countries of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia recently committed human rights atrocities, bloody wars and more over religion has passed you by.
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No it has not it tells me that people do not know God.
and atheistic regimes have been just as bloody if not worse.
and since people fight over religion as you say I prefer a country where the ethos of love your neighbor as yourself rules the day…not infidels should be second class citizens.(islam)..or Gentiles are animals in human form it (Talmudic Judaism).
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Or that the Greek, Turkish and Bulgarian atrocities less than a century ago in the name of religion or ethnicity are comparable with the Nazi atrocities but have never been prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
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Yes the Turkish ones were the Christian people only wanted their self determination.
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All of these are Balkan problems, done in the name of national identity and religion. Just like Hitler.
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So your solution is for Greeks to reject the reality of group identities and their own religions so muslims, jews and atheist feel more comfortable in Greece?
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Of course, the trivial thing of what name Macedonia should be “allowed” to have is of far more concern to Greeks… Let’s not worry about people’s lives, or violent torture, when we can argue about trivia.
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its trivial to you because its not your ethnic identity being usurped and not your history and not you who is on the receiving end of an irredentist propaganda campaign.
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ANyway this thread was about religious symbols…my point exactly ….
some jew, muslim, or atheist might have to see a cross or an icon and shit their pants.. lets worry about that… instead of real human rights issues like people actually being tortured…like in most non-western countries that you want us to embrace hordes of immigrants from..so we can have that culture of torture here.
Have a nice day
Sorry, PD, but Greeks committed terrible atrocities against other Christians as well as against Turks. You are not going to get away with that fabrication of history.
The fact is that this region of the world was multicultural for millennia. I realise that your Greek propaganda does not admit this, but is that a surprise? The problems of the balkans are not caused by immigrants, but by the native inhabitants who have shown since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire that they are intolerant, racist and without human decency. Everything that Cyd is saying on this blog exemplifies the real problem of the Balkans, but you just don’t get it. Sad, really.
And yes, there is little of Christ (or Mohammed) in the religions around here. I am more inclined to see the role of the Devil in certain politicians and religious leaders. Better to keep religion to yourself, and stop imposing your perverted values on others.
(BTW Are people seeing the blockquote button above comments. I hope so because it makes it easier to answer individual comments. Let me know if you don’t so that I can fix it!)
I am only going to answer Post Disagreement’s questions of me and not those directed towards other people.
Yes, daily prayers are forced in state primary schools (I’ll get back to you about secondary schools). You do not have to take part and we non-Orthodox parents do stand quietly and respectfully and wait until they are over. I am not offended by the prayers themselves but I agree with you… school is school not a church
I agree with you again! Icons are works of art and are artifacts. I have no objection to icons (One of my friends has years of experience restoring them) but they have no place in schools. They belong in museums and galleries and (of course) churches.
As far as I remember, you have not asked me about the Greek flag? I know the Greek flag has a cross on it! lol. Look, I don’t like flag waving of any type and I’m not a fan of flags in general but I like to think of it like a logo of a country! And I’m fine with that. What you seem to misunderstand is that I am not offended by the cross. At all. The cross is a symbol of the christian church and I (and the majority of people) have absolutely no desire to remove it or change it. But again, it should not be forced on people in schools, courts etc. If an individual wants to display a cross or icon at home or chooses to go to church then that’s a personal choice, not a state issue. I hope this makes my stance clearer to you?
Yes, they are “just there” and I believe it’s time to change that when it comes to schools and courts etc.
Well, Greece is changing and there has always been a minority of non-Greek Orthodox including Jews, Muslims and atheists (as well as a host of other faiths) I don’t think that the Greek Orthodox Church is threatened by that, although it does act like it is. I am not a fan of an officially stated religion in the same way as I wouldn’t like to see an officially stated skin colour! I see it as inflexible and unchangeable which has nothing to do with reality. The demographic of countries change over time. Just look at Britain. I know some people have a problem with it but I don’t.
I know! But I believe a real democracy does include separation of church and state. And America does not succeed in that respect.
I know!
Good. Nor do I.
I think I covered this above.
But the church should not interfere in the state ? But I agree “religion should be allowed to be expressed but not imposed in all forums”
I hope I answered the question of the presence of symbols. Yes, there are thousands of issues in society. This is one of them. Probably not as urgent as others but if we didn’t deal with hundreds of issues simultaneously , we’d be here forever twiddling our thumbs and achieving nothing.
I still belive this is the first time you asked me about the flag but I hope I answered your question in the comment above.
This is the second or third time the Lout has made this assertion despite being asked to clarify what exactly this means and who he is referring to.
This is a common theme amongst the new world order, social marxist types to attempt to trick the naive and gullible. He, in essence, is saying that since you are “not pure” (and some of his ilk may add…LIKE HITLER ARYANS), then it is acceptable for us to demand and further deluge you with people into your living space. As if this, if true, makes any sort of logical sense.
While there have been different sort of peoples in these regions, which gives him the “technicality” of multicultural, they have been quite similar in genetic make up. Religion is also very similar, aside from the Mulsim influence from various sources, though has led to problems as we all know. SO what he refers to as a multicultural region is in reality a broad band of cousins living in this region WITH a large proportion of native peoples. To make it even simpler, he is saying that you and your cousin are two different people. Yes, we all know that, but we are of the same blood.
Another very valid point is, even if what he says is exactly true, how does this automatically translate into preventing the current residents of the region from self determination? Somehow, in their minds, that human right is rescinded due to “lack of purity”. A perfect example of 1 + 1 = 3.
This is mendacity, by definition, considering he keeps touting how smart he is so he cannot hide behind being unaware. He and his ilk are liars and only look to deceive in order to change the face of Europe to match their view of idealism. He is a vile person that should NEVER be trusted. NEVER.
Xenos says:
November 27, 2009 at 9:01 am
Sorry, PD, but Greeks committed terrible atrocities against other Christians as well as against Turks. You are not going to get away with that fabrication of history.
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I do not doubt that they did but I think the balance of evil was owed to the Turkish side. its my opinion or bias but thats not my main point anyway.
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The fact is that this region of the world was multicultural for millennia.
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Actually, I do not totally agree, there were dominant groups in various regions. throughout the ottoman empire.
And the people that lived in the multicultural areas were not Japanese, Philippino, Kenyans, Indians, etc. they were mainly one the following: Turkish, Greek, Slavic, Armenian, Assyrian, Kurdish,…people who had some history to the area not people from flung places.
But this multicultural / multirligious /multiethnic empire…
was not simultaneously a state where all were equal before the law.
NON-muslims were seconds class citizens (Jews, Christians, and “heretical muslims”..i.e the Alevis today are still second class in turkey)..
The only way to have a multi-x empire or state and keep it together is by force and usually there is a group at the top that is more priveleged than others because of religion or ethnicity…etc.
Homogenous nations are more stable. ( that does not mean I do not acknowledge that there have always been minorities but usually there is one base majority ).
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I realise that your Greek propaganda does not admit this, but is that a surprise? The problems of the balkans are not caused by immigrants,
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And they are certainly not helped either.
I do not attack immigrants. But I do not think we need so many as are here now. I have already talked about this in the past.
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but by the native inhabitants who have shown since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire that they are intolerant, racist and without human decency.
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and the way you say it the rest of the world is paradise.
Look at the Indians and the Pakistanis (Muslims and Hindus)
Look at Ceylon/sri lanka..
Look at the Indians in Uganda
I acknowledge human nature.
Some amount of non-majority people who are peaceful can be accomodated but a society that fractures into many large blocks of races, religions, etc. always ends up having problems.
As far as historic minorities that are present now I have no problem with them as long as they do not get irredentist.
There is absolutley no economic reason to allow the creation of new minorities via immigration. And even if there was some true need for labor that could not be met locally..then the nation needs to use short term temporary workers until they can train a local into that position.
I think at one point you even agreed there is no need for more laborers at this point, yourself.
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Everything that Cyd is saying on this blog exemplifies the real problem of the Balkans, but you just don’t get it. Sad, really.
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Everything he said is human nature, read the newspapers,
I do not know Cyd personally and to what his ideals are on all these issues, but No people at any time in history or contemporaniously welcomes masses of foreigners esp. if they are difficult to assimilate.
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And yes, there is little of Christ (or Mohammed) in the religions around here. I am more inclined to see the role of the Devil in certain politicians and religious leaders. Better to keep religion to yourself, and stop imposing your perverted values on others.
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I am not imposing anything on anyone. Usually the elite figures of any group are susceptible to corruption.. but you do not know of any, lay people or priests who have helped the poor?
Politicians are whores in all countries.. end of story.
What makes Greece any more special / evil in that regard.
Politicians are whores in all countries.. end of story. What makes Greece any more special / evil in that regard.
Are you sure it’s not Lupus?
“American exceptionalism” isn’t a term invented by meself, y’know [will you stop changing names and trolling? one wonders - it's quite certain that we are taking you infinitely less serious(sic)]
Dr. House is right about one thing. Greeks do take themselves very seriously. My Greek neighbor was babbling about the year 2012 and how the world was going to end. Funny, this guy is an educated (from the UK) Pharmacist and believes this Mayan gibberish. So, I’m trying to get him to hand over his property since the world is ending. He apparently is not that serious (no sic needed)…
This is what happens when you pay attention to ignorant voters, egged on by racists and bigots. What will be the result? Even the conservative Swiss government knows that it will be civil disorder with the Muslims in Switzerland, legal battles in Swiss courts where the state will lose and humiliation of Switzerland in international courts, terrible relations with Islamic countries… Basically, nothing good can come out of racial and religious intolerance. That’s the dangerous road that these bigots like Cyd want everyone to go down.
The link didn’t appear: I don’t know what is the matter with these blog scripts… Here it is again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm
How the fuck are you 1) an academic and 2) in any position to advise anyone about anything?
You are the poster child of why the world is in such a fucked up state. Over 60 years of mewling and poor education and the results are a plethora of people like you in positions that are undeserved. Retards who think that they have something of importance to say. You should be cleaning someone’s dirty underwear and not having a platform to permanently damage a nation.
NOOOOO, stupid! You have nothing of importance to say and the above only proves that, yet again. Shut your ignorant pie hole and your pleas for totalitarianism, you pathetic piece of crap!
Ignoring the Idiot’s lunacy for a second and on a lighter note. At least Greeks will have company now with all the racist and peasant Swiss as company. LOL
HUMAN NATURE is what is happening here and the Idiot just cannot wrap his little pea brain around it. Despite 6 decades of MASSIVE indoctrination to make people believe white is black, up is down, and right is wrong and it hasn’t done the trick. The Idiot blames it on everything except the real reason: HUMAN NATURE!
And the Idiot asserts that *I’m* too stupid to understand his explanations! HAHAHAHA
The Idiot who has trouble with simple HTML links is calling others stupid. HAHAHAHAHA!!
Yes, fascism, racism, violence, torture and downright viciousness are all part of human nature. Let’s not try to make the world a better place: let’s follow Cyd and his nasty little goblins into the underworld of bigotry and pure evil.
It’s your sort who fucked up Greece with the Civil War, and it’s your sort who are fucking it up now. With the economy collapsing, corruption endemic and doubts that decent people will even continue to collect their salaries and pensions, the hate-mob are obsessing about immigrants and other religions.
Just to top it off, the original trouble-maker with Macedonia (Samaras) has been made leader of ND. We can look forward to more nationalistic crap and hatred from the Greeks, while the economy and society go down the toilet.
Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.
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minarets are technically speaking not required for a functioning mosque..its minarets not mosques that are being opposed
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>>>>>
Yes, fascism, racism, violence, torture and downright viciousness are all part of human nature. Let’s not try to make the world a better place: let’s follow Cyd and his nasty little goblins into the underworld of bigotry and pure evil.
<<<<
You have half a point, but you miss this point.
The point is knowing human nature you make policy around it rather than trying to make policies to change human nature.
i.e. multicultural societies are more unstable than societies that are mostly homogenous.
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First of all, I consider minarets to be beautiful, and far more artistically pleasing than Christian churches. So, this is clear racial and religious intolerance, which is directed against Muslims.
Secondly, Greece is not racially homogenous. This is a piece of fiction, which it has taken more than a century to convince its citizenry of. Most countries of the world are ethnically mixed, regardless of the propaganda that you may read. Their stability is dependent more on good governance and control of extremist political elements such as Cyd, who have caused this trouble in Switzerland. The ordinary population has been manipulated by propaganda and created fears, to push Switzerland into adopting an illegal policy. They will probably live to regret it, and rue the day of that referendum.
Referendum doesn’t exist in Greece anyway, because the government doesn’t trust the people to make a decision, that’s why they were not consulted on entering the EU. If they were, Greece would probably not be in the EU now. Unfortunately, Greeks vote with their emotion rather than common sense and logic. In a world of sneaky American Governments and smooth talking American Lawyers (diplomats), a little Greek Kosta or George has no chance. Do the American diplomats even take them seriously? (no sic needed). I think not, as they always send a junior level American diplomat to deal with them.
So how do you combine your euro-scepticism with your Reidian inclinations?
For those of us who don’t know of the background to this, are there any articles discussing it? It does seem weird to vote against the construction of minarets. Are they afraid of “Islamic extremism” among *Kosovars*…?
So, people exercising their human right of VOTING, is bigotry and pure evil. HEAR THAT, everyone? You see what the totalitarian cultural marxists truly believe? You see them behave in this manner within the EU. Votes don’t count unless they are the “correct” ones.
Also, just WHO is deciding what constitutes the world being “better”? What criteria are you using there, Idiot?
HAHAHAHAHAHA! The Idiot is blowing a gasket. Did poor, old, backward Greece really have such a huge hand in the global financial collapse that was propped up by lies and deception for a couple of decades? Apparently the same liars and deceivers that have propagated the sham called mass immigration? You know, where we “need” immigrants to due work that Greeks don’t want to do and all that bullshit. LOL
How are a small band of nationalists “fucking up” the country so badly when your ilk has fucked up the entire globe, Idiot?
And your contention, Mr “academic” is that once rid of nationalists, all would be right in the world? Care to provide an example of where this occurred in the world without massive death and destruction? I’m all ears to hear your examples of peaceful, economically plentiful utopia. Go on, let’s hear some examples.
These dimwitted cultural marxists have had control of all public discourse for so long that they have lost the ability to self reflect. It sails over the pointy head of the Idiot that he is clearly showing “racial and religious intolerance” when he speaks of Christian churches in such a manner. Though those are “acceptable” targets of scorn. Just not others, whom we apparently need because they do work and Europeans do not, or so I have heard.
First of all, I thought there was no such thing as race, Idiot. How then are you so confidently able to say that Greece and the other countries are not “racially” homogeneous? Hmmmm? HAHAHAHA
Please include Japan when you attempt to convince everyone how homogeneous nations are not stable due to their homogeneity and more due to “good governance”, like China and the Soviet Union. I’m interested in your great insight here. LOL!
Finally, homogeneous or not is immaterial to human nature and human rights, which include voting practices. Or do you have other suggestions on what are acceptable rights for peasants? I’m sure you do.
Not that I expect to see any evidence from the Idiot, though it would be a breath of fresh air if for ONCE, he would back his lunatic ramblings with fact. I presume the above is pulled straight out of his ass.
I believe all religions deserve respect, Christians as well as Muslims. However, I just heard a report from a US Based news source that said the US Army Soldier (Psychiatrist-Doctor-Muslim) who massacred 13 people at Fort Hood (he said Alla Akbar before doing it), had been espousing extremely anti-American/US doctrine, and that although his job performance had been inferior, his superiors said that they were giving him the benefit of the doubt because he was Muslim. Apparently, they are afraid that maybe Americans will be less tolerant of Muslims now, and political correctness may lose traction in the USA. I’m all for Political Correctness, but not at the cost of American lives. Not sure if this is true, but would be curious to have Xenos and Cyd weigh-in on this topic.
This is quite a loaded comment.
First: All people deserve the right to practice their religion, though I would not go so far as saying that all religions deserve equal respect. I don’t want to go any further regarding this as I am not a Christianity proponent, though I do not believe Islam is a “religion of peace”.
Secondly: What you have stated about the Fort Hood massacre is true. There was a complete breakdown in the checks and balances of the military due to concerns about political correctness. A statement I have read somewhere goes like this:
Short and very to the point. I am not a proponent of political correctness as it is anti-free speech, anti-logic, anti-human nature, anti-common sense, and simply a tool to stifle any sort of dissent. The military was afraid of legal action if it made note of Hasan’s extreme religious views. His medical incompetence was also a concern, though ignored due to these same PC concerns.
This event is one of many that will be required to shed the PC shackles that have enslaved our tongues and minds. As you can see, the MSM is not keen to destroy PC and they have tried their best to bury this story.
It is funny as well that you have heard and are concerned how “intolerant” white Americans are and only PC and hate laws keep them in check. This was the lunatic left’s mantra at the time of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Obama’s run for president and how some white wacko is right around the corner ready to assassinate him, and now with Hasan and Fort Hood. That never materialized because whites are mostly normal, decent people who do know right and wrong. We are tolerant and understanding and are eager to make rash generalizations as well as jumping to conclusions. Unlike the lunatic left, which constantly throw that bogeyman into the face of everyone in order to maintain their fear mongering control over the masses. As you can see from my discussions with the Idiot, it is he who wants to limit the freedoms of the citizenry in order to create some sort of utopic vision of what the world should be, no matter what the cost. Despite never being able to give an example of where, if ever, this ideology succeeded previously. I, on the other hand, only want the freedoms be given to the citizenry that are basic to human rights. Just who is the intolerant fascist between us?
Cyd, I think most people are decent, of any color. But, as an American, I am concerned that terrorists of any color, or religion could use political correctness as a weapon to attack us. But, we have to be careful to balance security with human rights. I want everyone to be treated fairly.
And who can forget Ben Franklin’s famous quote (that goes something like) “They who can give up liberty to obtain safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” So, therein lies the issue.
As for your disagreements with XENOS, maybe if you try not to use profanity or insults with him, that would be a good start. From reading these posts, I don’t see many others throwing profanity back and forth. Agree to disagree but try it politely and see what happens.
Remember, the Greeks have a wonderful saying that says “You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar”.
NA: the background can be read in several news sites in English, although there is probably more in French and German. I knew of this problem in advance, from personal communications from experts in Switzerland. Basically, an extreme right party and a religious party swamped the country with propaganda posters, showing minarets spouting up out of the Swiss flag amongst other things.
Several cities banned the posters as incitement to racial hatred, and the federal government made a very strong statement against the referendum question. The people fell for the fascist propaganda, which actually does not ban the building of mosques, there are only 3 (I think) minarets in the whole of Switzerland and no planning requests to build more, although there are a lot of mosques; 5% of the population is Muslim, from Bosnia and Turkey, therefore they are very discreet in their religion although they are quite a large proportion of the country.
The whole thing is a vicious attack by the right wing parties, for no reason other than their hate mentality. And the public fell for it. Recently, there have been violent physical attacks against Muslims in Geneva and elsewhere, so the racists are doing well at this time.
We need to clarify terms.
If homogeneous in your mind = absolutely 0 anything else…then you are correct no country is homogeneous.
But if we are talking about what is commonly understood in conversation for example in the following statement:
” Before 1990s Greece was largely homogeneous”
That does not contradict that there were SOME non-Greek native minorities and/or SOME non-Greek immigrants at the time before that.
It means that by and large the society had one main numerically dominant cultural, loosely extended kin group (ethnicity), rather than 2 or more large blocks of diverse groupings by race, religion, ethnicity.
I think you know that when people make the statement Greece was more homogeneous racially, ethnically, religiously, cultural..etc..they are not denying that there were no other kinds of peoples, religions, etc in Greece.
Even Japan is not homogeneous if you use the your definition.
See thats what you do Xenos…i.e. hegelian dialectic thesis and antithesis….its either all or nothing….
So, because you are nit picking…
I will add the adjective mostly before the word homogeneous.
But clearly your assertion is that because few or no countries are 100% “pure” in the Hitlerian sense..that means that we should just embrace all comers in any numbers….
Which also expresses itself in basically this sentiment:
“your racist/nazi (a bad person) unless you are a good person (agree to mass demographic transformation that if it continues guarantees your people will be a minority in their homeland”
i.e. you have only two choices be a killer/hater or embrace suicide.
Of course, there is many realities and possibilities in between these extreme that are ignored, like having sensible policies, clamping down on any new immigration and coming up with a policy about what to do with those hear.
But oh know lets go for the crazy extremes those are the only two options.
Guess what eventually people will get sick of it and say you know what f*ck it they call me this or that anyway, when I say we need to preserve our majority status and anyway we do not have the economy to justify all this immigration anyway…so we need to stop any new immigration and find humane ways to deal with those here illegally (including some combination of deportation and residency to others)…so,I’ll go the far right route.
No, PD, I didn’t mean that. I meant that the concept of Greekness itself is false, since many of those you call Greeks were in the Ottoman times and before quite different. They include various types of Vlach, Arvanites (Albanian), Jews, Armenians, Slavs of various sorts, Turks, Roma, Pomak. Actual Greeks by descent are probably considerably less than 50% of what you call Greeks nowadays, so where is this homogeneity?
The answer: it is falsified and enforced, and is not a reality except for those who believe the propaganda.
True, to a certain degree. PC is being used as a weapon and has been for some time now. Why else would the Idiot dust off the “Nazi/racist/hater” label almost from the get go? Because in the circle he roams in, it is very effective and serves the purpose of shutting people up who dare speak up to him.
Also, while it is altruistic to WANT people treated fairly, the truth of the matter is that it rarely occurs because another old maxim is “life is not fair”. This issue of terrorism is not a topic I have strong feelings for as I believe the US is reaping what it has sown. While tragic, it is avoidable and one way to avoid it is to do what you want, and that is to treat other nations fairly. The US has bullied others around the globe out of pure self interest. That’s it in a nutshell.
My main concerns are what I go on about and that is the ideology of denying race despite mountainous evidence to the contrary and nation destroying immigration for the almighty dollar. It has nothing to do with human rights, as the Idiot tries to portray. It is for money.
Yes, I know what he wants. However, I am not interested as I loathe people like him. As I said, I am not here to convince him as he is a lost cause. He is abiding by his cultural marxist religion and he cannot be reasoned with. Try reasoning the non-existence of God with an Evangelical Christian. Just won’t happen. Same with the Idiot.
But, thank you for the concern.
Nauseating. Appeal to authority. The peasants are not privy to the inside scoop the Idiot is privy to.
Define “extreme right”. What is a “religious” party? Define “swamped”. How many posters are involved with the scientific term of “swamped”?
Which cities? How many cities in total were “swamped” and how many, as a percentage, did this “banning”? Where is the “very strong” statement that the Swiss government made. What is your definition of “very strong”?
Where is your evidence for this as opposed to the Swiss populace NOT wanting minarets? Why is the maintenance of one’s country and customs, fascism?
Evidence for this?
Again, pure propaganda on your part. No evidence, whatsoever, that your claims are nothing more than figments of your anti-racist, anti-nation imagination.
What degrees do you hold? I cannot see you being anything but a lying hack, in all honesty.
Cyd: you are a human toiletbrush. I do not discuss with such filth.
Again, I would like to SEE evidence for this as you cannot be trusted as far as you can be thrown. While there have been minority races and ethnicities that have resided in Greece, the 50% number is pure fabrication on your part. Though let us assume that you are correct. There are the 50% Greeks that are native to the region and land mass called Greece. Just because there may be others who have cohabited this region with Greeks, their existence is null and void, according to you. Are you willing to say the same and follow your convictions with areas such as Saudi Arabia and the Emirates? I cannot see them believing your tripe as you would be quite lucky if they only laughed in your face at such absurd “logic”. You yourself have given these other people names and identities which are NOT Greek. To anyone without an agenda, it is quite clear that the Vlachs, Jews, and so on are not native to the land. Greeks are and no matter how much you try, you cannot get around that fact.
Let me keep repeating:
It is not an issue of “do not”, but more of “can not”. Every thing the Idiot says is a propagandized bit of garbage. If it is not clear by now, people do not want to see.
Maybe the Idiot can answer this question posed by a reader of the New York Times regarding the Swiss vote and the reference to “far right”…
Idiot? What say you? Bit of a conundrum, I’d say.
Excellent quote, misattributed to Lord Wellington:
Quite apropos to the topic at hand, wouldn’t you say, “Professor” Idiot?
So Cyd, on one hand, is a “race-believer” who is afraid of soiling his “purity” and, on the other hand, Xenos thinks that all nations had better crumble overnight since they are “artificial constructs”.
For some odd reason, I don’t see the vast majority of people agreeing with either viewpoint.
Mental: nations are indeed artificial and all social science is agreed on that, with some variation on the degree of invention. That does not mean for practical purposes that they do not exist: it does mean that discussion of their history is something that ordinary people cannot do properly. Since the history has to be faked in order to convince people of the integrity of their nation, then people believe in a false history.
Maybe it doesnt matter for the average farmer or labourer, but for those people who are making political decisions it is central. If the history of your country is a pack of lies, then maybe the economic statistics are too. Maybe everything is faked…
You see the problem?
Correct, they exist; and that’s all, folks!
Mental, if you are to paraphrase my beliefs, please do so accurately and appropriately. We have enough parsers and liars here.
I believe in the concept of race due to that it is verifiable and reproducible. I never mentioned “purity” or soiling, but only in maintaining a homeland. We are not rootless cosmopolitans that we pull up stakes and can call anywhere home. Home has a meaning.
Funny, our resident “nihilist” wants us to believe everything is a construct, except what comes out of his ignorant piehole.
No, Cyd: your shit is very real and pungent, and has nothing to do with constructs.
Yeah…sorry if your own words make you look like the complete idiot that you are. I truly wish that were not the case, however, in the real world, unlike your fantasy world you reside in, words and actions have meaning.
I was shocked to see how some Americans can be so nasty toward undocumented immigrants as this telephone call details
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
I am Greek national and live in DK, where also state and church are not separated- however religious symbols are not allowed in class. I am under the impression that removal of religious symbols are of course a step towards a more tolerant, free and non- discriminatory society, but even in DK discrimination is unfortunately apparent, since christianity is endorsed in celebrations and national holidays. Skin colour is important here and its unconsciously related to religion (e.g. brown skin: muslim, white skin: christian or more specifically protestant)
I remember back in my school days in a small village in GR, we had two co-students not following religious class for their reasons- it was never an issue, since it was not blown out of proportion by the school teachers. Of course this is not always the case.
I am wondering if tolerance in the school system is the solution- or so I hope.
All the best and keep up the good posts here,
Regards from Copenhagen
It’s refreshing to read a positive story coming from Greece Mia. I’ve been to Greece many times, it’s a beautiful country, with wonderfully warm and hospitable people. Some people in this blog should take a leaf out of your Greek teachers’ book and not “blow things out of proportion”, especially those in this blog who tend to generalise and tend to lump everyone in the same basket.
Sometimes this blog resembles a hate site with all the derogatory name-calling and swearing. Even the title of this blog is fiercely negative. THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY – Perhaps DeviousDiva could explain why such a negative and aggressive title was chosen?
DKNY, ask Albanians and Eastern Europeans living in Greece if they get the same Warm Fuzzy feeling you get. Sure, if you are the right color and the right nationality, Greece can be a great place. But, just because people treat you nice doesn’t mean they treat all nice. Based on living here in Greece, and not a visitor as you were.
DKNY, ask Albanians and Eastern Europeans if they get the same Warm and Fuzzy feeling that you get. Sure, if you come from certain nationalities and have the correct skin color you may be treated nicely. Just because they treat you nice doesn’t mean others have the same experience. My experience from living here is quite different than yours as a visitor. Printing nice stories about Greece can be read in most of all the Greek press, I would recommend you start there if you want people to preach to the choir.
Tourists who think they know all about a country from their little holidays are a pain in the ass. Try living here, and you will get the shock of your life.
Greece? Been there and loved it. Greece is a beautiful country and I won’t allow anyone to preach to me about MY EXPERIENCE of the countries i’ve visited. (Thanks very much Xenos).
Sure, minorities and other groups living in Greece will probably suffer discrimination but this is the same for minorities in any country (Aborigines in Oz (“fuzzy wuzzies”), native Americans and Mexicans (“wetbacks”) in America, Muslims (“pakis”) and Travellers “pikeys” and “gypos” in UK etc etc…It seems that we foreigners are forgetting about the treatment of minorities in our countries when criticising Greece.
I agree with DKNY, i think it’s important to keep things in perpsective and not blow it all out of proportion.
I think those who live in Greece do so through choice, no-one is forcing you to live there, are they?
People who don’t know what they’re talking about should keep their mouths shut and listen to those who actually do know. You have no knowledge of what living and working in Greece is like, you have no knowledge of why I and others live here… basically, you understand nothing other than your own narrow point of view — namely, that you enjoued some holidays in Greece.
Great. I wish you many nice holidays. Now fuck off and stop preaching to people who live here.
Sounds like someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.
This comment reminded me so much of modern Britain – the UK is suffering from alarming levels of Islamophobia in mainstream society as well as political and media institutions.
It’s a shame that most Brits can’t get used to the idea that Britain is blossoming with the infsuion of so many different cultures, languages, foods etc.
In fact, many parts of Britain look more like an Arab/Muslim country everyday – minarets, mosques, eastern fashion/dress, exotic aromas, arabic/gujurati street names, London especially has become an Eastern paradise.
London has become “Londinistan” in many ways, and is much the better for it.
In fact, America is also looking more like an Arab country every day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfnITWxr1as
Is this Mecca or Michigan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQvRzo0tH-E
This thread is hilarious.
It’s so funny hearing Brits trying to argue for the separation of religion from schools in Greece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmBy_j03m6U
There’s nothing like a video showing school kids of various religious backgrounds singing Christian hymns to show the level of hypocrisy of us Brits in this thread
you have no knowledge of why I and others live here…
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so tell us why?
Because Greece is a much better country to live in than the UK. The fact that him and other Brits choose to live in Greece says it all. His actions speak louder than words.
In the UK, you need a high-paying job to afford a decent flat/apartment and an acceptable standard of living. Even if you make a good income, the UK is grey and miserable, the people are cold-hearted and selfish, the elderly are neglected and uncared for, the schools have metal detectors to detect knives and guns brought in by school kids, gangs and knife culture is rife, the city centres resemble warzones at weekends with boozed-up Brits drinking themselves to oblivion to forget their miserable existence in the hellhole that has become Great Britain.
Brits like Xenos who live in Spain, Greece, Italy know which side their bread is buttered. They may criticise and mock Greece in this blog, but deep down they know that Greece is a much better country to live in. The measure of any society is how well they treat the elderly and Mediterranean countries tend to look after their grandparents in their own home – that says it all.
The Med countries offer a better standard of living even if you’re skint or have a low income job – you can go for a walk with your family or to the beach if you don’t have cash, you can visit your next door neighbour who will always be welcoming and will help you out in a time of need (in Britian, you’d probably get the door slammed in your face). There is a sense of community in the Mediterranean cultures where the elderly is respected and the family plays a central role in the lives of the community. These values have long since disappeared from the UK (if they ever existed. The culture in the UK has always been to ‘mind your own business’).
Mediterranean people are warm-hearted and hospitable, the polar opposite to what you’ll find in Britain, it’s no surprise why we Brits choose to live there. Greece is paradise compared to the UK, especially for low income whinging Brits like Xenos.
I, and others who chose to live here, have taken massive cuts in pay, lost most or all of our pension rights, and contributed to the Greek society and economy. The reward we get is next to nothing, just abuse from ignorant Greeks. The reality is that moving country is a massive investment and very difficult to undo: once you make a new home, you effectively burn your bridges with your homeland for career purposes.
Of course, many Greeks are underpaid and overworked too, but there are plenty with very high pay for doing fuck all, and these also take massive pensions from an early age. The corruption and nepotism in Greece are beyond belief. You have to live here to see how bad these things really are, where decent people get nothing and the criminals in the political parties suck the lifeblood out of Greece. All Greeks know this, but they never admit it to foreigners. They prefer to write propaganda and abuse, like the above poster.
I will agree with one thing, though: that Greece used to be a more hospitable and pleasant place to live in. That is originally one of the reasons that I settled here, along with some research reasons. The fact is that things have deteriorated so badly in the last decade, that the country is unrecognisable.
I also agree that the UK has badly deteriorated, and improved only slightly in a social sense, but the cost of living in Greece is now so high that the UK salaries and pensions look very good in comparison. Not to mention that there is a semblance of meritocracy in the UK, which does not exist in Greece at all.
And of course, Hiker is not Greek, it is the idiot from the UK again…full of his crap.
The reality is that moving country is a massive investment and very difficult to undo: once you make a new home, you effectively burn your bridges with your homeland for career purposes.
Rubbish. You can move freely and easily throughout Europe and gain employment so that’s just a feeble excuse. Obviously, it’s a little harder if you have children but still very possible to set up abroad. In fact, thousands of Brits emigrate to Greece, Spain and Italy every year (and the children are far better at assimilating in the new environment than adults are – they learn the lingo much quicker than adults too, so it’s not that bad).
It makes even more sense for low income earners like Xenos to live in Greece because they can afford a decent standard of living in Greece. They cannot afford to live a decent life in the UK because as low income earners, their lives would be abject misery.
Therefore, it makes sense for Brits in the low wage bracket to live in countries such as Greece or Spain where you get much more “bang for your buck” and where life is so much more enjoyable and the culture is so much nicer. Xenos may moan alot but he loves it really, he knows which side his bread is buttered. His many years of living in Greece is testament to that. He may be a bit of a whinger but we Brits are all like that, especially when we go abroad. It’s important that we don’t take him or his tantrums too seriously.
Xenos, I can hear you; Greece’s nepotism, corruption, and unemployment rates made me leave the country some years ago and relocate in the north, feeling as you say, that bridges are burned one way or another.
I believe, and might be wrong, that Greece is (or was) hospitable when foreigners are tourists or visitors- less permanent. If they want to stay in Greece and even worse, if they hold a “wrong” passport or have a “wrong” appearance, things change. Perhaps the same applies for all countries that are less multicultural, in the sense that locals believe that they are a homogenous cultural and ethnic group, although this can be an imaginary idea.
I don’t believe any more in better or worse countries- in DK welfare is great, it takes care of me as GR would have never done, but people are not outgoing and the weather is gray. It’s a matter of personal preference – either related to work, climate, personal life or something else…
Mia, like most Southern Europeans, you’re doing yourself down.
Don’t feel brow-beaten by sanctimonious Brits like Xenos into thinking that Greeks or Italians are more likely to be corrupt or xenophobic or homophobic. People like Xenos thrive on making people feel inferior. We Northern Europeans have been doing this for centuries (demoralising the natives) when we went round colonising and stealing people’s resources around the world (under the guise of ‘civilising’ them).
In my experience, the Mediterranean people are their own worst enemies when it comes to comparing themselves negatively with Northern Europeans.
At the risk of sounding patronising, I can tell you for a fact that as a Brit who has lived extrensively in Southern Europe, the Southern Europeans have been the most hospitable people i’ve ever come across. When i moved to Southern Europe my next door neighbour couldn’t be more accomodating or helpful (my next door neighbours in britain didn’t even acknowledge we existed until they complained about something or other). In fact, i don’t think i even exchanged more than a couple of words with my neighbours back in England and i suppose it’s the same for you in Denmark. Southern Europeans are more likely to invite you in their homes and share their last piece of bread with you even if they hardly know you. This hospitality is part of their culture. In Britain, being miserable whingers is part of our culture. As is turning our nose up at foreigners. You’ll see alot of that from holier-than-thou Brits and Americans.
It’s high time that Southern Europeans stand up to the condescending and abusive “little Englanders” who turn their noses up at the “corrupt greasy Greeks” – we must realise that there are no greater or lesser ignorant or corrupt people. Ignorance exists everywhere and to suggest that one race/nationality is more ignorant or more prone to be corrupt than another is wrong (in fact, it’s racist).
It’s important that you don’t take unsophisticated culture-intolerant snobs like Xenos seriously. And it’s important that you don’t do yourself down. Brits like Xenos are much less cultured than you are. That’s why he swears and throws his toys out the pram whenever someone questions his trailer trash mentality. You can see many examples of his vulgar language in this blog. Reminiscent of British hooligans on the piss….
Hiker seems to be suffering from the white man’s burden.
Hiker, you seem to be suffering from the white man’s burden. Xenos is quite intolerant but he’s right about many a thing.
Please define “white man’s burden”. There are many interpretations of this term.
I agree with your comment on Xenos. He is indeed intolerant.
As you can see from the post above, full of vulgarities and abuse, fits the image of an unsophisticated lager lout perfectly.
DD, Xenos continues to post personal attacks as well as vulgar and abusive language. He is also not respecting posters anonimity by mentioning people’s real names. How long will it take you to finally do something about this? Or do you secretly approve of his offensive opinion on Greeks? That’s the impression you’re giving with your tacit acceptance of his continuous rule-breaking.
The duplicity and pure hypocrisy of these “new” appearances on the blog are just disgusting. I have no tolerance of people like you, who are just ignorant and think you can tell me what I am allowed to think and say. I actually know the law, and know what is acceptable. I also know Greece as well as any Greek. I do not care if you agree with me or not.
Blimey, you’d have thought i murdered someone. I only asked why Xenos can make offensive remarks about Greeks when others have been banned for making offensive remarks about Roma/blacks. That’s all. It seems a little bit suspicious when he is allowed to get away with constantly making offensive generalisations, swearing at posters, using bad language, telling people to “fuck off”, calling contributors “ignorant tourists” when they share their experience, has attacked alot of people personally, has deliberately disrespected posters’ anonymity by calling people by their real names and broke just about every rule in DD’s Comment Policy. Yet, he is allowed free reign in here when Greeks have been banned for much less. I just highlighted this glaringly obvious double standard. I didn’t think DD would fly off the handle and start threatening bans for the voicing of an opinion. I echo Thomas’s sentiments in requesting DD to tell me exactly where i have broken the rules or transgressed comment policy. I didn’t see the rule where posters are not allowed to ask DD a question.
In fact, after DD posted the “Time for Banning” thread (which stated that she would “ban anyone who insulted or made personal attacks against others from now on”), Xenos came on and made ANOTHER personal attack almost immediately (calling posters “psychiatric patients”) which DD promptly DELETED. So, she didn’t stick to her threat to ban anyone who made personal attacks from now on, she effectively hid the evidence by deleting Xenos’s post so she wouldn’t have to ban him. This has been going on for ages in the blog, Xenos gets away with murder and is not required to adhere to the same rules as others in here who have been banned for the same offences.
I can’t be the only person who has noticed this double standard but i can see why others don’t dare to bring it up or ask a question of DD in here for fear of being on the receiveing end of a “Time for Banning” post.
Please read this comment here and please read it carefully.
You do not know who I have banned or not. You cannot see my blog dashboard so don’t make assumptions. I am slowly clearing through a lot of work I have had to do on this blog.
I would suggest that those people who are caught up in this power struggle, give themselves new names and start again with a clean slate. I do not wish to go back over old ground.
Can I also suggest that you use non-jokey names as this adds some seriousness to your comments.
I repeat, I am not banning ANYONE from asking questions. I am asking people not to keep harping on about how I run this blog, who I should ban or not ban etc etc.
I am taking very seriously all your arguments and complaints and working to make this blog a more friendly and constructive place to be.
Thank you
DD, can you at least admit that you deleted Xenos’s personal attack on poster where Xenos called him a “psychiatric patient”? Xenos’s personal attack was made immediately after you threatened to ban anyone who made a personal attack from now on. can you at least be honest and admit you deleted Xenos’s post.
Can’t you see that you’re digging yourself a deeper hole and leaving yourself open to accusations of double standards everytime you ignore Xenos’s constant abuses of your own rules?
It seems that everytime you try to rectify the situation you’re making it worse because you refuse to accept something that everyone else can see. The only way to rectify this situation is by sticking to your comment policy and applying your rules EVENLY ans EQUALLY to EVERYONE, and not making special allowances for posters who you may happen to secretly agree with.
I too see the duplicity, and no, I am not the above commenters.
Yes, I deleted Xenos comment but as I said you do not know who is on the banned list. Several people here will have to change their names and start again. I will not reveal who but they will know who they are because their comments will go into moderation until I approve them.
Is that clear ?
Can everyone please calm down.
I’ve had some comments that have automatically dropped into moderation because of flagged words not because of banning. This system has been in place for ages and includes certain swear words. This is because certain words often indicate that the comment might be problematic.
If your comment does not appear immediately it is in moderation. It does not automatically mean you are banned. If you change your name, the first time you use it, you will drop into moderation. This is not a new procedure. Once your first comment is approved, you are free to post.