AFTER visiting one of the country’s most criticised migrant detention centres, Spyros Vouyias, the new deputy minister for the protection of the citizen, condemned the state of the overcrowded facility using language surprisingly harsh for a government minister.
“I apologise for the lack of humanity in this warehouse of souls where Dante’s Inferno pales by comparison,” Vouyias said after his visit to the Paganis detention centre on Lesvos last week.
Speaking to reporters, he described conditions there as “appalling, inhuman, a violation of basic human rights”.The deputy minister was accompanied by representatives of the United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR), Pro Asyl, a rights group from Germany and the local Ecumenical Refugee Programme.
Emphatic
No other Greek government minister has ever spoken out so strongly against the country’s migrant detention policy. His stance on the matter was welcomed by human rights advocates, who have long criticised the state’s indifference to the deplorable conditions in detention centres for undocumented migrants and would-be asylum seekers in Greece.
A former transportation professor, Vouyias was quick to reveal the socialist Pasok government’s plan for a U-turn in the country’s immigration policy and announced the closure of the Paganis centre and plans to create “human” and “dignified” facilities.
“It is necessary to change the way we receive migrants,” he said.
This is in line with the policy overhaul already announced by Prime Minister George Papandreou. As leader of the opposition last June, Papandreou had stressed the need for a “drastic overhaul” of the country’s asylum and immigration policy.Last summer, the former New Democracy government passed controversial legislation allowing authorities to detain undocumented migrants for up to one year. Plans to transform dozens of disused military facilities into detention centres were also on the cards.
Karl Kopp, a spokesman for Pro Asyl who accompanied the deputy minister to the detention centre, said everyone was shocked by the conditions at Paganis.
“It was really awful,” Kopp told the Athens News. “It was hell, just like the deputy minister described it. There was a lot of dirty water on the floor where the women and children are being held. It was very smelly.”
He said 250 women and children were being held there.
Health risks
“It was terrible,” Kopp added. “From a medical point of view, the situation is dangerous.”
It is important that a Greek government official finally announced the closure of Paganis, Kopp said.Volunteers from the Greek branch of Doctors of the World have visited the centre regularly over the past two months. In a statement, the group said more than 70 children, including some as young as 12 months old, are currently at Paganis and sleep on dirty mattresses laid out on the floor.
The doctors reported that the only two toilets at the centre do not flush properly and that the two showers are broken.
“It’s become very difficult for us to help them,” said Martha Falk, a psychologist with Doctors of the World.
The Paganis detention facility has recently made international headlines after migrants staged a demonstration and rioted to protest the deplorable living conditions.
“Nobody can live there,” Kopp said. “Hopefully, this awful place will close very soon. And, hopefully, this is a starting point to rethink the entire detention system in Greece. The current situation is unacceptable.”The detention centre’s maximum capacity is 300 people. There are currently more than 600 men, women and children being held there. There have been as many as 1,200 detainees in the past.
According to news reports, the Pasok government will order the immediate release of almost 100 migrants held at Paganis. Officials are to issue them pink cards (rose kartes) – a temporary residence and work permit for asylum seekers.“We will find ways to speed up the bureaucracy so that they do not have to stay here for so many days,” Vouyias told reporters. “And, of course, we will [create] better facilities where they can stay for as long as is necessary.”
Let me go
The migrants at Paganis appeared pleased to see the deputy minister. Some pleaded for their release. Some have been detained there for more than four months.
Vouyias publicly apologised to the migrants for the conditions at the detention centre.
“I was by the minister’s side during the visit and he apologised continuously to these people,” said Efthalia Pappa, director of the Athens-based Ecumenical Refugee Programme, an organisation established by the Church of Greece.“He walked into the cells, which, believe me, are so terrible that you wouldn’t want to go within 10 feet of them. But he went in and he spoke to them and showed a compassion which I believe was sincere.”
“We met with six pregnant women,” she told the Athens News. “We also saw children, babies and newborns – all packed into the crowded cells. We saw people with serious health problems like heart conditions and diabetes.”
According to Pappa, Vouyias stressed the government’s desire to work with non-governmental organisations.
“This is very positive,” she said. “Up to now, it has been extremely difficult for us to help these people. The doors have been closed and we have even been accused [by officials] of inciting riots. We are here to help, not to throw oil onto the fire. I believe the minister understands this.”
Allegations of abuse
THE ATHENS office of the United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) issued a press release on October 26 expressing “serious concerns” over the alleged abuse of migrants at the Paganis centre on Lesvos.
“Police officers guarding the centre abused and beat detainees, including a 17-year-old, who was taken to hospital,” the UNHCR claimed. “He was diagnosed with lesions on his head, back, waist and arms… the incidents were triggered by the tension generated in some of the wards where groups of detainees were protesting against their protracted detention.”
Citizenship Battles on February 17th, 2010
Being Greek on February 10th, 2010
Laos Against Citizenship on January 25th, 2010
The Immigration Debate on January 22nd, 2010
Aid Probe on October 24th, 2009
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Greece (and actually the whole EU) needs a network of Ellis Islands, large processing and temporary housing centers. The idea to use old military camps is still a good one, but such a huge endeavor needs a lot more work and a lot more money. And I know Xenos is going to disagree, but if Greece is the official conduit for immigration to the EU, the EU should fund, and here he will agree, oversee those centers.
Actually the more I think about it the more such a plan makes sense. Let each state make it’s own decisions about who enters or not, complying of course to EU Law, but let the sorting process start and end in the border states. Make absolutely clear that any immigrant that enters a EU state without going through one of these centers will be deported for life from the EU. But also make it clear that any immigrant who does come to the centers, and meets the criteria of a specific EU state, will have a guaranteed residence permit, and depending on state legislation, citizenship. This means that as long as there EU states that are more humane and liberal then the mean, immigrants will have an incentive to go through the centers since if they meet state (and some basic EU wide) criteria they have a good probability of getting legal status.
An example may make this better. Let us say that we have two EU states G and S. Let us say G has a very liberal view to immigration and S doesn’t. Let us also say S is a border state. If an immigrant enters S or G illegally he/she loses an ability to take advantage of G’s more liberal stance. If the immigrant comes to the centers in S, then he has a good probability of benefiting from G’s more liberal policy, or mayhaps even find a job in S, if S has a temporary guest worker program.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the thought process of the Marxist “humanitarian” in a nutshell. Spew out some drivel that is a “solution” to something and then think about it later. These leftist types, in reality, could not care less whether something works or not, just as long it has the appearance of moral superiority and humanitarianism. Look at their utterly catastrophic result with Africans and hunger. Feed, feed, feed without putting in place the natural processes that will help a people and government SUSTAIN its population. No, that’s too logical. Free food without work or any control over population growth and then watch the population explode with a doubling over a generation. No worries, we’ll just have them all come to Europe. Yep. Real geniuses, these retards are.
Να κανώ μια αθώα ερώτηση Συδερικό? Απο το ένα πως πήγες στο αλλό? Όχι γιατί που βρήκες τα κοίνα της πολιτικής της ΕΕ και ΗΠΑ στην Αφρική με τα προβλήματα της ΕΕ με ματαναστευτικό. Οχι παρακαλώ να πες μας πως?
Και πως στο δίαβολο οι Μαρξιστές που στην Αφιρκή, κυρίως προσπθούσαν να βάλλουν, καταστροφικά λανθασμένες, βάσεις για βιομηχανίκη ανάπτυξη και αυταρκεία, εχουν οποιαδήποτε σχέση με την πολιτική ανθρωπιστικής βοηθείας στην οποία πρωταγονιστούν ανάμεσα στα αλλα και συντηρικτικές οργανώσεις σαν την Καθολική και Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία και άλλα. Καλα έχεις συναίσθηση του τι λές?
Ο Σιντ δεν είναι Έλληνας, Κ (το έχει πει ο ίδιος άλλωστε). Ας τον να γράφει τις παπάρες του.
Cyd a small point of advice. What Marxist means in the US, is not what Marxist means in the rest of the world. You want to call me Marxist go ahead. But define first what you mean.
V
To υποπτευόμουνα, απλά πειραματιζόμουν για να αποδείξω τις υποθέσεις μου.
Ο Σιντ ειναι μεγαλος μαλακας και φασιστας, δε ξερω αν ειναι ελληνας ι οχι.
To return to the thread (and we should refuse to be diverted by crypto-Nazis) the problem of irregular migration is that Europe has no proper policy for labour immigration or for managing refugee flows. This is mainly, I suggest, because of the large electoral influence of anti-immigration parties and those of a fascist mentality. The result is a complete lack of will to address problems, so everything becomes a crisis reaction. Basically, the immigration policy of the EU is “Let’s bury our heads in the sand, and hope that Cyd and his ilk fuck off somewhere.”
You know everything I just said? Well, let me sum it up like this, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”.
And another thing, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”.
Sometimes, that’s what this blog feels like to me reading the same tired old comments.
I am not sure if the inability to produce Europe wide legislation is just or centrally due “the large electoral influence of anti-immigration parties and those of a fascist mentality.” Europe lacked such a policy in the 70s,80s,90s when far right parties were less popular. I still think they are not a powerful as you think Xenos.
No for me the culprit is mostly organizational inertia, and a gross misreading of the situation. Now the resurgence of the far right is going to make a solution (even one like the one I proposed above which actually is very good for them) a lot more harder. but I don’t think they by themselves create the problem.
HAHAHAHA!
Look at this! The Greek “detectives” at work laying the perfect trap! What a pathetic bunch of tards you all are.
Τούβλο,
You do not need to make an ass of yourself with this childish Greek mentality of “gotcha” or whatever bullshit you are trying to prove. I suspect you are trying to show me as an “outsider” of some sort though that is your usual faulty logic. 1) I am not an outsider at all due to the fact I am 100% Greek and more Greek than probably many on here. Originally from Athens though that is all you need to know. 2) Even if I was an outsider, what I have said needs to be refuted by evidence and logic and not pussy games. Leave those for the Lout.
You are a Cultural Marxist. Did you not know this?
Sounds like some people I have come to know here.
V for Vagina states:
1) Fuck you. 2) I never said what I was and I do not remember anyone ever answering this question for me. Add this to your long list of WRONGS!
Lout Haw-Haw,
The only Malaka here is you, you fraud. You want to deny populations of their basic rights to vote and I am the facist? LOL Well at least this is right in line with all your other stupid “facts”.
the problem of irregular migration is that Europe has no proper policy for labour immigration or for managing refugee flows
………
and what would be the proper policy according to you?
I propose that labour migration should be solely based on the needs and desires of the population receiving them.
refugees..should be handled humanely however it is understandable and reasonable for each nation to place a limit or cap on how many it determines it can accomodate.
i.e. Greece with 9.500.000 ethnic greeks and declining..should not be required to take in 100s of thousands unless they were spread around the eu..
even if as you say only 20,000 ask for asylum. the greater the success rate of asylum application the more likely a non-asylum seeker will use that claim to buy time. etc.
in 5 years 20,000 becomes 100,000 thats a 1% population shift and actually more considering the base of 0-20 year olds in Greeces is small %..and 99% of asylum seekers are young.
And lets be honest since muslims and lots of these people are muslims have babies like crazy..that 1% at least doubling itself in 20 years.. so in 10 Years Greece will become another 10% non Greek (assuming the 20,000 per year does not become 100,000 per year) +10% already here illegally or legally not ethnic Greeks.
we are well on our way to becoming a minority. No thank you.
If it was 20,000 a decade thats a different story but 20,000 a year ( and you believe it will stop there at 20,000, next year it will be 40,000 then the next 60,000 ) etc..
Remember its not just letting someone in, these people need jobs, money, education…etc. its not an easy thing for a small non-industrial country to accomplish…esp.. when we have many of our own ethnic Greeks in poverty etc.
i.e. I am not blaming foreigners for problems that existed in Greece before they showed up…but quite frankly we have these problems..more people from poor countries with different cultures in mass numbers its just another problem.
Also, even if Greece was like Austria or Sweden then why are we obligated to accept anyone regardless of how legitimate their asylum claim is into our state…DO you NOT agree that their should be caps?
I am sorry but if some politicans signed some treaty like that we need to shot him. NO ethnic group wants to be a minority in its own homeland..NONE. Stop fighting human nature.
Otherwise the populace will get more and more frustrated in all these European countries and will say ah who cares if they call me a racist or this or that …I am going to go far right…
Then see if you are happy.
Just because 20,000 people apply for Asylum does not mean Greece should grant them all or most of them asylum..just because they claim it….however, if they are truely refugees etc..NOT economic migrants..then yes something should be done for them…up to our ability as a society to cope with the numbers.
Keep in mind, Palestinians can all claim to be refugees so can Iraqis, Afghanis…i.e.. there is more trauma and horror in the world with wars going on then can be reasonably asked of Europe to accomodate to ameliorate.
Do I think the EU nations should do their share, yes. But there has to be a cap.
i.e. let say 20,000,000 chinese catholics wanted to flee chinas one child policy..would we have to open our doors to all of them?
I think the immediate non-warring nations next to these countries need to do their share to and perhaps the EU can give them incentives to those countries that neighbor them to keep them and integrate them into those societies..cause logically speaking they would more easily integrate into a similar neighboring cutlure.
Yes the welfare is better in Scandanavia etc.. but again this supposed to be about seeking asylum not the best welfare state.
Perhaps the EU should just colonize all those sending countries and impose EU rules and regulations and administration since there are so many that want to come to Europe…let Europe come to them..
Nigerians can take a popular vote to see if they prefer to be a British colony again. You might b surprised by the results.
But I digress..
In summary, clearly with this recession and the rise of more far right representations and resentment over migration into Europe, NO more economic migrants are needed or wanted for the most part with perhaps a few exceptions in some technical fields (but even there then are we not brain draining poorer societies? stifling there development?)
A more efficient asylum processing system needs to be put in place and some predetermined caps acceptable to the host nation need to be considered as well.
Somewhere between letting anyone come in, in any numbers and zero I am sure there is a sensible and humane number that can be determined that would be based on spreading the asylum seekers around the EU including Greece and based on a budget and local demographics…i.e. we are not going to let all of Iraqi come to the EU even though I am sure most of them want to.
As far a treatment in detention centers..etc. the problem is with this kind of migration its not like you have a guest coming to your house and you know they are coming so you prepared for it.
You have an intruder you were not expecting albeit one who may becoming with no bad intentions jsut to improve his own situation economic or otherwise.
I sort of agree with somethings Xenos and TK but I believe they are too extreme…(i.e., denying there is such a thing as an ethnicity, race, etc all cultures and people can get along etc, if it brings more money lets change the demogrpahy of Greece who cares if we become a minority in our small country (TK)) ..but I understand Cyds side as well, I do not want Greeks to become a minority and not only that I want them to retain a strong majority as % of population and I think some moderate discussion by people in authority who could do something rather than by us on this blog would be helpful.
Sadly i think a free for all policy will be pursued by PASOK with the consequence of them pushing society to more drastic extremes on the other end which Diva and Xenos would definitely disagree with..and me too…will take over.
A discussion on what policies and procedures to implement a system of handling this whole issue.
One that recognizes the demographic and economic concerns of the native European while showing some genuine regard for true asylum seekers and laborers who entered legally and have been contributing members of society.
Who has that..obviously the solution is something that the majority of the society can accept. otherwise it will be something imposed and that always blows up later some other way.
Cyd, come to Wounded Knee, get your deportation-order and have a nice stay in Pagani waiting to get part of under 1 % accepted
refugees. You can renovate there and be busy! So that Greece can use that concentration camp again and faster as planned.
And don’t come up with “red minority”!
HOMELAND SECURITY
FIGHTING TERRORISM SINCE 1492
denying there is such a thing as an ethnicity, race, etc all cultures and people can get along etc, if it brings more money lets change the demogrpahy of Greece who cares if we become a minority in our small country (TK)->
Nope I didn’t say that. Go back to my previous posts on citizenship. I would only be saying that if I was Cyd and had racialist beliefs where culture is intransitive. I believe that culture is transitive and that migrants of the second generation (the only ones that can get citizenship for me)can become Greeks with the proper education. I have never and nowhere said that migrants should not be assimilated and assimilation means a change of culture. Of course if like Cyd one is a racialist in which case Race+n=Culture then such a policy is not possible. Well I reject the race+n=Culture assumption and have seen no non-anecdotal evidence of it.
Under the system I proposed you would be happy. The states of the EU that wish to follow a more strict policy can do so, and the states which want to follow a more lenient can do so. What will be unified is the processing system. Of course under Sengen and the EU principles of free movement of people, goods and services, if migrants become citizens of state A of the EU, then they can move to state B. To put limits on EU citizen movement is a violation of the treaties of the EU. To impose anyone states immigration policy on the other is a violation of state sovereignty.
The end result of my system is that in the end the non-liberal states of the EU will have to leave it. But I think that is fair and just for all sides. If they don’t believe that there should be a free movement of citizens, services and products why the hell are they even in a free trade agreement? Something like the COMECON but on racialist grounds is more apt for them. It will also permit to clarify if racist or liberal states are more successful in the long run.
Under the EU/Schengen regime, holders of long-term residence permits can move to other EU countries, but the malakes who run Greece decided to make it difficult for immigrants to get those (whereas the intent of the EU was to award them to everyone with 5 years residence).
You see, basically, Greek policy is malakies. Everything is contradictory, everyone complains about something, and there is no end to the nonsense. It is all quite unnecessary.
BTW I never denied that there is such a thing as ethnicity, I denied that there is race. Because ethnicity is socially constructed, you can add to (or delete from)it. The ethnic Greeks add to it, along with possibly second generation immigrants: this is also part of Greek history, to add people to the ethnos. Idiots like Cyd cannot understand that.
One last point, the birth rates of immigrants rapidly converge (in the first generation) to those of the native population. The exception lies with ethnic communities which are distinct, such as Kosovo vs Serbia. Already, the statistics show, Albianan women have the same birthrate as Greek women. All this hysteria about Greece being over-run by immigrants and their children is the product of mental illnesses of some neo-fascists.
Here is a NYT article that summarizes some demographic studies on birth rates
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06.....gewanted=1
PD I am actually ok with a state taking a 5-8 year break from the free movement of poeple. But longer then that and it’s economy will tank.
Of course, you must have plenty of examples of such success stories that you base your decision of allowing Greek citizenship to anyone under the sun after one generation, right? Because if you do not, I have a long list of such examples that have led to the destruction of such nation states and societies over time. Surely you aren’t just pulling this out of your ass, are you?
Here, allow me to simplify this so you can see, as I do, just how stupid this is. You posit that race does not equate to culture but somehow land mass and location does. You are saying that if we were to switch the populations of Zimbabwe and Denmark, after a generation or two of teaching the customs, then the Danes will become Zimbabweans and vice versa due to their locales. Again, please provide evidence that this is the case where a mass of people become exactly like their hosts simply by being in their proximity and in their locale. Because again, I can provide a long list of evidence that the opposite happens.
Cultural Marxists, such as yourself, go on nothing but stupid ideas that have plenty of evidence of their failures and the string that people like you latch on to is that THIS TIME, it may be different. Fuck that.
Lout Haw Haw continues to blather on about nothing. Ethnicity is real but race isn’t!!! LMAO Oh, OK. That makes so much sense. Race is real and is biological as has been proven, genetically by markers and research over the last decade. I can’t help it that the data just does not go the way this loon would have preferred.
A small amount of immigration where the numbers could EASILY be assimilated into the host population may be a net positive and additive to the host. What this Lout proposes is chaos, balkanization and even genocide of the host populations with his MASSIVE influx of unassimilable people. Unassimilable due to their total massive numbers and their widely different cultures.
While there is some data that indicates immigrant population fertility rates become less and more in line to the host populations, that data involves immigrants from European nations to other European nations. The Lout even says so himself about distinct groups, such as Muslims and Muslim Africans who have inundated Europe en mass. How much more distinct can one get, I ask the Lout? Evidence shows that British Muslims of second and third generation are MORE extreme than their immigrant parents or grandparents. They are separate and want separation in order to maintain their beliefs.
Same goes for Mexican immigrants into the US, who are dumber and more crime prone than their illegal parents/grandparents. They also maintain a fertility rate of over 2.5 despite being in the US.
Regardless of what I said above, the greatest example of why people should maintain their homelands is with Blacks in America. This population was brought over during the slave trade where a total of 600-700K was transported to the US. The rest went elsewhere. Currently, there are over 30 million Blacks in the US and agitate for more and more racial spoils from a system that caters to their every whim due to multigenerational guilt. Their fertility rate is at replacement level, yet they, along with guilt ridden white liberal idiots have changed the face and nature of what was an America of North Western Europe heritage. So how was that a good thing for the founding stock of the US, I ask the Lout?
Cyd has a very valid point. There are no such thing as unified multicultural societies. Multicultural societies tend to be diverse and broken. The US society is the best example, nowhere else are there so many ghettos and so much racial violence.
Frankly I don’t want Greece to turn this way. The immigrants who come here may be saints, they may be angels amongst men( and I’m not being sarcastic). But ultimately, they don’t want to be part of the Greek society. They want their own special laws, temples etc without caring about the impact they have.
And Cyd, μην δίνεις σημασία στον Τράβλο και το Ξένο. Οι Μαρξιστές δεν έχουν επιχειρήματα γι’αυτό χρησιμοποιούν τη βία (το να αποκαλείς κάποιον ρατσιστή είναι μια μορφή ψυχολογικής και συναισθηματικής βίας) για να επιβάλλουν τις απόψεις τους.
Valid points my ass. You are just bigots and racists.
Be careful with your word “ghettos” as long as you put refugees in concentration camps. On the other hand there was a good reason for this term: GHETTOS ARE MADE FROM THE OUTSIDE!
“Mexicans” have more rights to cross the illegal border than you european shitheads cuz most of them are Indians!
You fucking illegal aliens still spread your christian propaganda after raping the whole continent.
As the murderous growth of economy needs to double the population in europe in between the next 40 years there is a cool anti-multi-culti solution: America sends the Europeans back to Europe! I think the number of Euro-Americans will equal to that fantastically and your race will keep cleaner as yer ugly mouth of a scumbag. May be a free America needs some refugees to clean the land of your concrete towers, roads, trails, airports and all the other pain in the heart of mother nature.
But at least this “civilization” must be destroyed anyway. So KILL YOURSELF AND SAVE THE PLANET!
If El Kaida would hear any of god’s words they would become Unabombers, hahar.
-Manitou
HOMELAND SECURITY
fighting terrorism since 1492
And Cyd, μην δίνεις σημασία στον Τράβλο και το Ξένο. Οι Μαρξιστές δεν έχουν επιχειρήματα γι’αυτό χρησιμοποιούν τη βία (το να αποκαλείς κάποιον ρατσιστή είναι μια μορφή ψυχολογικής και συναισθηματικής βίας) για να επιβάλλουν τις απόψεις τους.
Now who is the cultural Marxist.
Οι Μαρξιστές δεν έχουν επιχειρήματα γι’αυτό χρησιμοποιούν τη βία (το να αποκαλείς κάποιον ρατσιστή είναι μια μορφή ψυχολογικής και συναισθηματικής βίας) για να επιβάλλουν τις απόψεις τους.
1) Calling someone a Marxist is also a form of psychological and emotional violence.
2) Tell me one state ruled by nationalists that did not use violence (physical or as you say emotional) to impose it’s ideology and did not at some point exterminate, put in jail, or deport large amounts of people?
I believe it is still you and Xenos.
Buddy, you have done your darnedest to earn the label and it is quite accurate. Now, you call it a slur? Simple solution is not to behave or promote the ideas of cultural marxism and no one will mistake you for one ever again.
1) I don’t know…let’s try Japan again. Travlos, you have a major problem and this will play havoc on your PhD studies. Your problem is the “either/or” fixation you seem to have in making debate points. Nationalism is the love of country, people, and culture. It does not have to mean Hitler. Understand? Japanese are EXTREMELY arrogant and proud of their culture and country. Though they behave not like your typical bogeyman nationalist that the Marxist left likes to portray.
2) As to the deportation of peoples, pretty much all countries have a history of this and if people are not of the same ethnic/genetic makeup that is within the nation-state, then they have the right to protect their boundaries and sovereignty. Not to mention their citizens.
3) The degree of misery inflicted by the left and right is also a valid point of discussion. We only hear the one side of the argument and that is how Hitler and the “far right” (despite Hitler being a leftist though that is a topic for another day) is evil and they were. However there is never any mention of the left’s evil that has led to over 100 million deaths. The Black Book of Communism…read it.
Stupid people think in terms of labels, stereotypes and pigeonholes, because their brains are small and their outlook narrow.
Did you get that, Cyd?
Yes, I sure did. How could I miss it, observing a fine example of hypocrisy such as yourself the last couple of months?
Japan
Japan came close to exterminating it’s Ainu populations, repressed there culture, brought by force several hundreds of thousands of Koreans to Japan as slaves or second class workers and refuses to give them citizenship, and killed of several million Chinese in it’s quest for living space and a safe heaven for it’s people.
Cyd I knew and read the black book of Communism in it’s original French long before most people in Greece even knew it existed. My point was that you claim your ideology is the “natural” one while mine (which you term as cultural Marxism erroneously), which is liberal capitalism ,is not and can only be imposed by force. Well your ideology has been imposed by force as much as mine or the commie one. Classical liberalism has been attacking arbitrary divisions of humanity and the misery caused in their name long before Foucault, or Gramsci took breath.
I wish there was a world possible where nationalism only was the love of country, people, and culture (and contrary to your assertions I love my country, people and culture). But it is not. It almost always is used by politicos and “nationalists” to legitimate every conceivable form of misery and inhumanity and that these things are normal, natural an laudable (witness your reaction to deportation ,sometimes of poeple who lived in an area for hundreds of years all in the name of national purity). Jut like the commies used the human thirst for social justice to justify destructive crimes.
Hitler was economically leftist, as was Metaxas, Franco, Salazar, as is Karatzaferis, the Golden Dawn. Did they or did they not also justify their actions on the protection of the national, racial, cultural purity of their people? Weren’t they nationalists who loved their country, people,race and culture?
The fact that they were corporatist and nationalists does not erase the fact that they were anti-cosmopolitan, anti-multicultural, anti-immigration. Even the Soviets had these traits.
Lets return to the point at hand-the creation of new immigrant admittance centers. I don’t see what that will solve.
I mean of course I want all people to be treated in a humane fashion, but any new centers won’t solve anything unless the government decides and the lefties allow to deport all illegal non-genuine asylum seeking immigrants.
This situation reminds of the gag with the boat and the hole in the hull. You use a bucket to get the water out and you wish you had a bigger bucket. But that won’t solve anything, you need to solve the real problem and fix that hole, otherwise the water will keep pouring in and you will keep wondering what you are doing wrong.
You mean like IKA, the universities, the tax system, the…. well, everything in Greece, basically.
Thank you! My point exactly! Greece has so many problems, why should we carry the immigrant problem as well?
Why should Greece solve the immigrans’ problems when we have so many problems of our own?
I did not see Travlos’ comment until now.
Perpective, my good man. You need perpective and what that will show you is that human nature is a constant struggle for the upper hand and “your side” has had many more atrocities attributed to it than any nationalist bogeyman you create.
Nationalism is certainly more natural than commie egalitarianism. If that were not the case, we would not need draconian laws to make sure no one speaks ill of it and in favor of nationalism. We would not need the MSM to smear any nationalists as “far right” and “white supremacist” and so on. And no, nationalism has not needed to impose its ideology “by force in line to Marxism”.
Why can’t it be? Your attitude is in keeping with others of the indoctrinated bent and that is let’s prevent this nationalism from ever arising again because we know the next Hitler is right around the corner. Simple hogwash and propaganda. Nationalism is natural and virulent nationalism is a reaction to situations that are similar to what is going on in the west now. A blowback to extreme unnatural processes that are forced upon a population that does NOT want it and is IGNORED by its elite.
Perspective Cyd, perspective
Nationalism was not the mode of living for the majority of humanity for oh something like 2000 to 3000 years. Peasant based communities with egalitarian elements among the downtrodden as in feudal Europe, feudal Japan, caste India etc, was. You will be surprised if you keep a historical perspective of what was “natural” and what was not. Indeed if we take into consideration that villages (or polis in the case of ancient Greece) were the natural mode of life for thousands of years why do you support a mode of life that was the creation of capitalism, i.e the Nation-State and not your local village or city? Explain to me why nationalism only became a force when capitalism broke the village, city and empire?
Nationalism is as natural as Communism, i.e not at all. Nations Cyd got self-identification only since the 1800s.That is just 200 years compared to the thousands of Empire, Faith and Village. So except if you are a Marxist (which I think you are, just the nationalist type like Causescu, Kim Jong Il etc) and believe there false-consciousness drivel how do you explain the fact that human for thousands of years lived in a mode of living that was not centered on nation, but was centered on village, town, religion, empire? I would love to hear it.
When was the last time nationalism did not also mean chauvinism, xenophobia, discrimination against minorities , and war? the 1920s? 1890s? Romantic nationalism of the good kind was killed in 1848 (every nation having a state, Utopian of course because then we would have 300 states not 190, and nations cooperating with each otehr in the spirit of equality and fraternity, impossible of course because nationalism got injected by racism, and fraternity because as PD has said being a nationalist means that by default solidarity to non-nationals are less important then nationals ) and then coop-ted by the Bismarcks of the world. Read the story of early nationalism and you will see how Red they were (just take as an example the very prototype of the romantic nationalist Giuseppe Garibaldi).
So that is why nationalism can never be just the love of ones people, country and culture. Because nationalists are not the children of the 1848 revolts and Garibladi, but the children of 1871 and Bismark. That is why the Neoturks killed their christian populations, that is why Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria tried to remake purified empires, that is why Albania and FYROM make claims everywhere, that is why Romania killed or tried to kill off it’s minorities, that is why Slovakia is trying to destroy the culture of it’s minorities.
If nationalists in Europe were fired up with those ideals of Garibaldi, and the spirit of 1848 I would had been proud to call myself a nationalist. But no, the spirit the fires them up is that of 1871, of Iron and Blood. You say that the left is making up a bogeyman when it equates nationalism with Hitler. Really? Take a look at the nationalist parties of Europe, take a good look and look up their ideological and party history. Everywhere but with some the ideology does not come from 1848, Mazzini or Garibaldi, but from 1920 and 1930. In Romania it is the Phalanges, in Italy the Fascist party , in Germany the NSDP, in France the Vichy movement and ideologues, in Greece a big part of LAOS look back at the Junta or Metaxa as an example, or in the case of Voridis and Pleuris Nazi Germany, in England Mosley’s Blackshirts, in Slovakia the 1930s state, in Hungary the rabid nationalism of the the 1930s. No wonder these people can’t work together. They lack the value of fraternity of the 1848 romantic nationalism.
Also if rabid nationalism is the fault of elites tell me where were the millions of migrants in Europe in the 1920s-1930s to spark your virulent nationalism?
Anti… The “immigrant problem” as you put it, was the solution (temporarily) to Greek laziness and economic backwardness in the 1990s. Now that it is not, you start to blame immigrants for Greek failings.
Of course, there is the issue of managing mixed asylum flows from Turkey, but Greece received quite enough money from the EU since 1981 to pay for many years of that. The problem with Greeks is that you all expect to be paid money for doing nothing, and whine and complain when things don’t go so well. Just grow up.
konstantine, i have said before: don’t waste your time with Nazis. There is no debate to be had, just their bilious nastiness.
Of God, here we go again! The same old stereotype of the lazy Greek.
I guess before the 90s the fields plowed themselves, buildings were falling from the sky and olives were coming out of our buttholes LOL.
But I still haven’t read one serious argument or a clever answer to my question:”Why should Greece go multicultural?”
And don’t use again the “you’re in EU so you have to” argument.
If EU started putting nuclear waste in their children’s milk, should we do the same?
Anti: I take your comments at face value and meant seriously, so I will debate.
This thing about Greeks and work in the 1990s is not confined to Greece: it has been true of all countries developing economically, especially those with EU handouts. And in a way, I am being inaccurate to simply describe it as laziness: the picture is far more complex than that. It is about change, in lifestyles, economic roles, self-perceptions… I am old enough to have watched it happen since the 1980s.
Insofar as what Greece should do about its role in the EU is concerned: I think it should accept the basic values of human rights, and stop this Balkan mentality. I think it should refuse to follow EU stupidities, with stated principled objections (such as your nuclear waste in milk argument). And why should Greece “go multicultural”? Because it always was — the national identity is faked — and that is the way a globalised world has to go. That does NOT mean that Greek identity is lost: it merely means that you allow immigrants to settle, and their children to become Greek citizens. This actually Greece needs, with its low birthrate, and settlement immigration is far less problematic than the 1922 Exchange of Populations. I agree that, at this moment, there is no work for immigrants and it’s not the right moment to propose such policy.
Wow, I have to admit it’s sad when people can’t tell the difference between a Greek Priest and a terrorist. This poor priest didn’t speak any English and just happened along the wrong American in Tampa. Poor guy!
http://the44diaries.wordpress......terrorist/
HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Someone tell this piece of crap that it is not 1990, but more like 2010. A whole generation later and we see that this pile of dung that the cultural marxists proposed has been a DISMAL FAILURE. Maybe he is simply senile? Who knows and who really cares just as long as we know to mock and ridicule this turd and his “grand academic” plans. LMAO!
As to Greeks being “always” multicultural…1) Lies at worst and 2) Word play at best. Either of which is the most we can expect from this pile of dung. Genetically, Greeks can be identified as a separate entity using a multitude of SNPs. To me, that does not indicate “always being” multicultural or any great degree of intermixing. What else do these demented marxists have aside from reinventing themselves and their lexicon? I’ll address more later as well as deal with Travlos’ childish contortions above.
And why should Greece “go multicultural”? Because it always was — the national identity is faked — and that is the way a globalised world has to go
…………
if it always was then why do we need more?
and national identity is not fake, there are such things as ethnicities and to varying degrees of kinship as well as culture.
……
And the world is not going in any direction the populace and government policy do not want it to go.
……….
Is Japan, Israel, Taiwan, Gulf states, African countries ..doing this NO.
only European ones are asked to multiculutralize. bring in every race religion etc.
You are arguing that because a few non Greeks got over the fence in the past we need to accept hordes of others from far flung places.
….
and a low birth rate does not mean we have to take other people in..a low birth rate could correct itself once prices fall low enough it will be cheaper to live because of less people. but if we import all these other people that benefit is negated.
And anyway it should be up for the native Greeks to decide if they want economic migrants or not.
Clearly most Greeks are resistant to your views and do not want any more immigration and most do not want automatic birth right citizenship…etc.
I do think helping out refugees and asylum seekers could be accomplished and I think most people would be sensitive to their plight and not have a problem with SOME number coming in based on 1) local demographics 2) resources and 3) ability to share the burden with EU states.
Automatic birth right citizenship will prove an irrestible short cut to EU citizenship..so while I am not against the possibility of SOME numbers of nonGreeks born in Greece to legal residents getting citizenship eventually it should not be automatic.
and thats the way the world is going..
…
thats the basis for your reasoning?
so then we can turn around and say far right parties are winning more and more % of voters..thats the way its going accept it.
that is a faulty basis for accepting any situation.
Post Disagrement offers up some scathing rebuttal to the Lout’s puerile reasoning for national suicide. Why should Greece open her arms to multiculturalism? Answers include:
- Because I am smart and say so.
- I am well respected and say so.
- I am civilized and you peasants are not.
- All Greeks are criminals and stupid and need to suffer.
- There is no such thing as Greece or Greeks, its a scam.
- “Greece” was infested with all sorts of other people in her entire history so why stop now? Let’s see it to the end.
- That’s just the way of the world, who are we to question.
- All these new “Greeks” will take up where you old, dying stupid criminals leave off. Don’t worry so much.
- Greece needs these saviours because Greeks aren’t reproducing. Who cares about mass immigration suppressing native birthrates even further, look over here so I can distract you.
- Greece needs these immigrants to do the work that Greeks won’t do (LMAO Gee, I haven’t heard that one with the Mexican version)…what? Unemployment is sky high during this global recession? Oh well, no matter, we’ll use this excuse later during better times. Still bring the immigrants though.
Maybe I have missed a gem or two from the Lout’s reasoning, but the key word is reasoning here. From what I can see, there has been no intelligent thought or reasoning used by this vermin. He wants to condemn a nation to national suicide? Fine. He can start with his very own Israel and then at least I can be convinced he believes his looney convictions. He has no standing whatsoever here and what really puzzles me is just WHERE did this “academic” get his education from? He is a disgrace to the meaning of academic. Charlatan is more accurate to what he truly is.
Travlos, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read more than one or two sentences of what I write. You, AGAIN, seem to fixate on either/or.
People are more comfortable with people like themselves. This is nature speaking. People are suspicious of “the other”, again nature speaking as this is an ancient, hard wired defense mechanism in order for us to have survived to this point in our collective history. What I call nationalism, is in fact NORMALISM, as I have yet to hear of people, AS A GENERAL RULE, being more comfortable with strangers versus than their own kind. Families are very much like this and nations, ethnicities, races, cultures are merely extended families. What the human race is, is a series of ever expanding concentric circles of relatedness and familiarity. So, of course nations are bunch of distant cousins, or least were to varying degrees.
So, when I say nationalism is natural and commie egalitarianism is not, you see in what context I use it in. You, on the other hand quibble over pure definitions, though you do that only when it suits you. So you ask…
Well, you just heard why. They were familiar with each other and probably familial as well. They did not go out and give all their fucking shit to strangers they allowed into their village or town because you know what happened, Travlos? Yep, they got robbed or killed if they were stupid enough to do that. Yet, you want all of us to blindly do that.
You have no idea what you are speaking of. Really. You also give yourself away as a nationalist with your use of the word “FYROM”. No other person around the globe uses that word aside from a nationalist and territorial Greek no matter where they are. So there are some lines, even you will not cross, eh? LOL If you actually believed your bilge, you would not care the Slavo-Macedonians want to be called “Macedonian” and the country to be called “Macedonia”. Yet, that is not that is not the case.
Then you go on about how nationalism cannot be this or cannot be that as well as that history tells us this or that. Funny, history tells us that and much more about cultural Marxism, NO MATTER WHAT IT HAS BEEN CALLED (just to preempt your nitpicking) yet we are supposed to ignore all this evidence that is damning against marxism and push forth with one of the most destructive movements in our global history. History will judge this time on this planet as when the lunatics brought the world to or near to total chaos. That is what we are doing as has been the case in previous examples, though in miniature. Yeah, THAT is ok, however nationalism must be avoided at all cost because once you’ve seen one nationalism, you’ve seen them all. Truly, this projection is something to behold. What you rail and caution against is MARXISM and not nationalism because, at least we have had nothing but failures with marxism. At least nationalism has been successful on occasion through history. Marxism can’t claim that.
CYD I like to think of myself as big on fairness and trying to be accurate.
While I do think that many so-called Human Rights organizations and defenders are just in it for a variety of reasons from altruistic to less than altrusitic..I definitely believe the money funding the pro-mass migration death to the west agenda is definitely not an altruistic source.
(Soros, Rothschild…all the New World Order people that want to create chaos socialluy and economically to then offer the solutions in the form of greater and greater tyrannical and autocratic bureaucratic remote supra state control).
Xenos..to his credit did indeed say Greece does not need any more economic migrants.
My issue with Xenos and Travolos and Diva etc.
1) Is that they deny ethnic identity and that it matters.
2) That they trying to promote that we are all human (which I do of course agree) so that means any human culture can easily assimilate to any other…(which I do not agree).
i.e. look at the serbs and croats ..both slavic and both some brand of Christianity although different brands and they had no problem attacking each other.
3) automatic birth right citizenship to children born in Greece of parents who are legal or illegal residents …its the automatic part I take issue with…and whether it should be a right per se.
the legal resident child I could some how see where they may be given the privelege (some kind of possibility but not guarantee) depending on various criteria and circumstances and our demographic issues and needs.
Born to illegals..sorry..that one would be a lot more hurdles if not outright rejected..************************************************
because this would create an irresistible short cut to gain EU citizenship and will just compound existing migration problems and issues**************************.
4) most importantly than anything I disagree with him about regarding nationalism, ethnicity, etc.. Is the way in which he disagrees and gets really nasty and racist and bigoted towards Greeks.
“Everything Greeks do is illegal”?
BTW technically I believe he is a British citizen who is “half” Jewish and half-Anglo-Saxon. But I only got nasty about the Jewish and to a lesser degree about his British heritage to demonstrate to him what others see when he makes the comments he makes…i.e. how does it rub you when I make broad encompassing statements about ALL JEWS…and considering that Judaism is a very codified nationality..i.e. tied to religion and that religion can in its most extreme forms can be just as nasty and worse than anything the Koran says.
Xenos..I actually do find believe it or not that you and I sometimes can agree on somethings…but you then get so nasty against my people as a whole I do not want to even consider anything you have to say.. And you will say well who cares about you and Cyd and Anti Multi…etc. I might offer to you that perhaps you encounter a lot of frustration in your life:
1) you can not accept not getting your way
2) when you do not get the acceptance or affirmation of your statements you demand you then act in a way contrary to your stated humanism.
This makes it even more difficult for you to be heard and respected..because you wont tolerate descent and wont consider others issues and concerns with your proposals…or will dismiss them categorically.
Part of being in a Civilized Democracy is agreeing to disagree in a civil manner. And from the sounds of it I am guessing you are in your mid 40s (if you have been doing this research etc work I doubt you started it at 10 if you been doing 19 years)….yet you resort to very low attacks for someone proportedly working in the interests of human rights.
If you believe in human rights you respect everyones humanity, including those who disagree with you.
I do not know Cyd,
he does not claim to be a human rights defenders as you do,
and I am guessing he is a lot younger than you and guessing frustrated young man about all the problems his country has and perhaps even personally economically..
maybe he had a relative killed or mugged by an Albanian or perhaps like me is descended one or two generations from Greeks of Asia Minor who were basically genocided against ( atrocties against Christian minorities were initiated by the nationalist CUP, committee of union and progress before Greek expansionism…in fact Greek expanisionism could have been partially justified to protect Greek and other Christian minorities seeing what the Turks accomplished with the Pontians and Armenian and Assyrians just before Turkey lost WWI and before the Greco Turkish war really started/continued after the close of WWI).
I mention all this to say….Jews are not the only ones who say to themselves never again..so do we Greeks.
Greece does not need any more immigrants and even if you could convince me we did..we most certainly have good cause to not want it to be Islamic origin considering our history with no apologies to people who can not understand that.
Would you blame Israelis if they opposed immigration by Protestant Germans into Israel? of course not and for reasons that do not have to even be explained. so same thing for us.
Since you claim to be so educated and sophisticated and most likely older
why not show that in how you talk to others even if they disagree with you.
If someone gets nasty you do not have to take it out on all Greeks.
But i guess anyway I am wasting my typing..you have your human rights too..to say what you want..but I am pointing out that you are contradicting yourself when on the one hand you care and hold up human rights and dignity and then two sentences denigrate all Greeks in our house…your being a rude Xenos.
Xenos, thank you for your respectful response (no sarcasm).
I know the questions I make are simple and they can’t be answered easily, let alone in a blog, but I think hard questions are necessary for a fruitful dialogue.
But let me argue with some of your points.
For centuries, all Greeks-though they have their differences- have felt they have a common culture and history that unites them and forms them into a nation. All Greeks, the Vlach speaking, the Cretans, the Pontians, the Pelopponisians etc have felt that they are part of the same big family. It doesn’t matter if they are genetically the same or if they are direct descendants of the ancient Greeks, they is an unbreakable bond.
What worries me the most is if the immigrants will achieve to become members of this community, or if they will form their own “communities within the community” fracturing Greece and farther alienating themselves. We’ve seen it happening in other so called “multicultural” societies.
Take the bombings in London’s metro. I know those people were extremists and they didn’t represent all British Muslims, but fall from the sky. They were born in England but were never part of it, they lived cut off in their own small worlds.
In conclusion, Xenos, I want to say I respect your views and opinions(when they aren’t insultive), but what I see here is a difference in perspective.
You believe that the immigrants will become a healthy part of the Greek society and that they will aid in the ongoing country’s road to maturity. I really wish that was true, but I’ve already stated why I think not.
In twenty years, if things go they way you hope I will accept my mistake. But if they turn out as I fear, how will we be able to ever restore our broken community?
Two examples above of the decency and respect of Greeks. Post Disagrement and AntiMultiCult are probably just normal people who have a right to be heard about their concerns regarding a policy that will change their nation and people, permanently. How are they treated with disrespect and name calling. That is the initial reaction by people that the Lout associates with and advises. Then comes threat of physical violence and violence itself if one does not listen to their “wisdom”.
This blanket smearing of a good people by the Lout is truly disturbing because it is highly likely that he brings it upon himself yet does not have enough insight to realize it is he who is the transgressor. He certainly does here and he definitely did with me, as I have lost patience with these sort of filth a long time ago. Greeks are very decent people, as a whole, and all it takes is some reciprocal respect and you get people who bend over backwards for you. Try that with Muslims or Africans, in large numbers. Forget about the individual Muslim or African that one may know who is “so nice”. Group dynamics change dramatically when there are large numbers.
Bottom line is that, to me, the Lout should never be trusted with anything he says as it can and will change depending on what is the best way to push forth his vision. He may SAY that Greece does not need economic workers at this time, though he has not shown why Greece needs them at all when there are enough healthy, albeit lazy, Greeks to work. It is simply wordplay with him, and all of them, in order to be able to continually push forward with their goal. He is nothing but a self serving liar.
No need to wait. We have Britain, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Germany, and France as current examples of why unassimilable immigration just does not work and is the stupidest of ideas.
Migrants are the easy target. I just wonder why don’t fuck with Turkey. Seems to be Armenia gots more guts to bring the genocide on the table. Why not Greece? Is Greece waiting until Turkey joins Fortress Europe cuz then there would be European law to talk about? How many Greeks died in Little Asia? 1.5 or 4.5 millions? If ya had real balls you would bring back Smyrni instead of bitching around about migrants!
Why can’t we do both? Another either/or-aphile? Seems to be contagious amongst the “whites have no rights” crowd.
Amen.
exactly my point..i.e. because there is some other evil going on we can not talk about something else.
And Homeland Security …that is not what this blog is about …
And Immigration is a more pressing issue than the past (not that its not important). We need to prevent ethnic cleansing or Greeks in Greece now ..today.
Why should this minority have any rights? BTW when born they’re pink, when sick green, when getting too much sun red, when dead blue.
P.c.-term: coloured.
Thought it’s a anti-rascist blog. If ya have space-problems invade Pontos or ask Timothy Leary.