Comments on: A Mosque in Athens ?

By: thaer

thaer — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:07:23 +0000

well when they start putting a mosque in the Vatican . now we can start talking on church in Saudi Arabia . I live in Heliopolis and I’m surrounded by 5 churches in less than 1km square …. What the fuck is that … and 200 000 Muslim are not allowed to have one mosque … well i believe that middle eastern countries with Christians population should stop building churches at all and let see . Moreover, most of the holy places for Christians are also in our land ,, we should stop allowing all Europeans from entering them as well this will be fare,.

By: Gus

Gus — Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:24:21 +0000

Hey jack that’s actually a mosque that your talking about. Get your facts straight. When they put up a Church in Saudi Arabia then we can talk about a Mosque in Athens.

By: Travlos Konstantinos

Travlos Konstantinos — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:01:55 +0000

PD? are you seriously saying that we should do what others do? This is about Greece and what we do in Greece. Not frakking Saudi Arabia.

As for the second. In political science before we make a necessary variable argument, we make sure we run a existence test.

There are at least 7 states predominantly Muslim (60% to 99% Muslim) where Christians can built churches fairly freely

Syria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

Maldives
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

Bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....Bangladesh

Mali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

Tajikistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....Tajikistan

Kazakhstan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....Kazakhstan

Indonesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

So your necessary condition (majority Muslim) does not always lead to your independent variable (prosecution of Christians).

When will all you Geert Wilder’s wake up to the fact that Islam is not just Arab?

By: Travlos Konstantinos

Travlos Konstantinos — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:53:07 +0000

Hey PD, who gives a fig what others do. This is about what we do. The whole Middle East can go commit mass suicide. Wanna follow.

Ah yes you wanted one predominant Muslim state that permits legal churches and pays money for them?

Malaysia (60% Muslims and Islam state religion)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....n_Malaysia

It is still hard to build them and discrimination exists, but you can build one if you really want to. No existing church has been closed down.

Others were Christianity is legal and churches can be operated and built

Indonesia (86.1% Muslim)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....ristianity

There are Islamic Terrorist groups that attack Christians, but they are enemies of the state.

Bangladesh (88% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....Bangladesh

the situation bears some resemblance to Greece when it comes to discrimination in jobs. But churches are permitted and you can build new ones.

Uzbekistan possibly (88% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....Uzbekistan

Yemen (99% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Yemen

Syria (87% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

Kazakhstan (62% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#Religion

Mali (90% Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

Tajikistan (98% muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....Tajikistan

Maybe the Maldives (Predominantly Muslim)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

That’s 8-9 predominantly Muslim states where you can built a church.

By: Post Disagreement

Post Disagreement — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:53:42 +0000

I think its Ironic that their is this outcry about the lack of official mosques in Greece for immigrants..when one can not name one majority muslim country that would allow the opening of legal churches, where Christian temporary workers lts say from the philippines in saudi arabia can go worship.

Anyway since they have “illegal” mosques they might as well legalize them ( and of course monitor them for extremist rhetoric and propaganda ).

By: Xenos

Xenos — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:30:11 +0000

Ahh, OK: I forgot that part about the Church offering land. Maybe, then…

The Byzantine Empire but without an Emperor is how Greece operates. That’s why it’s such a mess. Good luck in bidding for the throne!

By: Travlos Konstantinos

Travlos Konstantinos — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:47:04 +0000

Well according to the article the Church was willing to give the cemetery land. Facilities should be paid for by the faithful, which will reinforce the rise of community organizations free from the influence of the state and mayhaps help promote a separation fo church and state at some point.

Really Xenos Byzantium..> Well then who is Emperor, I have some rights on that throne and would like to attempt to take it. Yes Konstantinos XIII Travlos, Basileus Romaion, Autokrator, Pontifix Maximus. Sounds Nice!

By: Xenos

Xenos — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:39:20 +0000

Well, not really… Where will the land for the cemetery and related facilities come from? And the money for cremation facilities?

The thing is that one mosque is a terrible idea: the different branches of Islam need different mosques. It is just asking for trouble to pack them all into one building.

The obvious solution is that most of the illegal mosques are allowed to operate legally, maybe with some changes or restrictions. Of course, the Orthodox Church will not allow it, seeing as Greece is still part of the Byzantine Empire and not a member of the European Union or the Council of Europe.

By: Xenos

Xenos — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:03:14 +0000

Oath: you are an idiot. You think that peer review is something that solves problems of faulty sources, but it doesn’t. “Hard sciences” my ass: you people cannot cope with the complexity of human behaviour. Everything that I write is carefully sourced (even if it is not explicitly referenced). If you disagree with factual information in my publications, it is because you disagree with the sources of those facts and not with me. I do not make up facts.

Regarding my comment on “should”: I interpreted it as a different usage (meaning “this is theoretically the case”). I apologise for the confusion, and accept that you were not trying to mislead.

By: deviousdiva

deviousdiva — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:13:40 +0000

@Oath Taken
I simply deleted the information that refers to place of work and I will also delete real names and any other information that might lead to someone being “outed”. I am not interested in siding with anyone in particular. My concern is for safety in general. It’s too bad that you see this as underhand or backing someone you disagree with. I also disagree with some of what xenos says. And many others who have commented over the last 4 years.

I do not know much about xenos or the research you refer to. Yes, anyone who really wants to can find quite a few people here. Mistakes have happened in the past where people have posted under their real names etc. But let’s not make it easier for people.

If ANYONE feels uncomfortable about information divulged here, I will do my best to delete or edit. As I’ve said loads of times, I’m not here everyday (especially at the moment) so apologies for any delays or oversights.

I have been in contact with a lawyer and the police for past incidents and all comments are saved locally on my computer with IP addresses. I got some very good advise a few years ago because of this very same issue. Thank you for your concern.

By: Oath Taken

Oath Taken — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:59:48 +0000

Xenos learn to read: I wrote “should” everywhere. I’m well aware of the current awful situation and I wrote what I believe should be the change in policies. Nowhere did I try to conceal anything.

Having been to Western Thrace I can guarantee you that mosques can be a source of noise pollution. Church bells as well. There are plenty of court decisions against churches that have forced them to limit their noise pollution – of course if in an area close to a church no atheist lives to lodge a complaint the noise continues.

As for your errors I’ve corrected you several times in this very blog – and the errors I pointed out regarding the Arvanites in the introduction are so fucking plainly obvious you should be ashamed to have put your name under them. I publish in the hard sciences where peer review is much stricter.

As for the imposition please oblige us herr gauleiter. When is the invasion starting?

By: Oath Taken

Oath Taken — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:52:35 +0000

And just in case you choose to misinterpret the part about “vitriol” it clearly refers to plenty of doses of sarcasm on your blog – not to threats by shaven-head idiots to your family or you personally which are reprehensible. In fact if someone does that I suggest you contact the police and pursue them legally.

By: Xenos

Xenos — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:52:09 +0000

Oath: you are an anonymous person here who chooses to criticise published work, and DD is right to delete it. If you wish to make your (incorrect) comments in your own published work, feel free to do so.

There are no mosques in Athens, so what you have written above is false. The Greek Muslims in Athens do not have mosques. Why are you trying to conceal that fact? And the idea that there is a problem with noise pollution from mosques, when Athens is one illegal noise zone (including Greek church bells) is unacceptable.

You see, basically, Greeks are not prepared for anyone other than (some privileged) Greeks to have rights. That’s why it has to be imposed: your culture is intolerant and corrupted.

By: Oath Taken

Oath Taken — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:41:11 +0000

Diva I took care not to mention Xenos’ research center (the mention of the existence of which you forgot to delete – adds to the aura of authority I guess) and of course not his name either. I guess someone smart enough to Google for the publication mentioned could find out more information but you chose to delete not just that but everything around it including the embarrassing details of his errors (which are but a subset of the errors in that 17-page introduction). Speaks volumes of what you consider as “protection”. Here you have a commentator that has made his academic expertise central to his comments and you just made clear that any challenge to parts of his argumentation that go beyond his immediate area of research and into issues of history is not to be tolerated. He is given a free hand to proclaim his authority (that the “peasants” will not recognize). Essentially his propaganda is to be considered off-limits. Congratulations – you’ve proved your utility to the gauleiter to be.

For what it’s worth, a person that suggests that what Greece requires is “imposition of justice” via foreign occupation (as his comments about the occupation of Germany by the Allies make clear) deserves all the vitriol he receives. That extends to people that support him while pretending to be caring for the land and its people.

For what it’s worth, the Muslims of Athens, both internal migrants from Thrace and external immigrants should have access to different mosques, according to the form of Islam they practice and their bodies should not have to be driven to Thrace for funeral provisions. Both mosques and cemeteries should be registered with and properly authorized by the local government bodies (and the central government should make it clear that discrimination should not be tolerated).

At the same time the cost of building and running places of worship should not be carried by the government (or by foreign governments for that matter other than the case reasonable donations with NO STRINGS attached). It should be up to the immigrants to gather the funds to build and run their place of worship just like it happens with Greek immigrants in the USA for example. Security issues with radical preachers can be handled the obvious way – only preachers from the rest of Europe should be allowed and ΕΥΠ will have to monitor such places of worship and any objections from the usual rabble rousers should be ignored. The sound pollution restrictions put on churches should apply equally well on them as well (and I do not give a rat’s ass if people like yourself would label that as discriminatory).

As for cemeteries it makes sense that people that pay (their indirect) taxes that fund their local municipality should be entitled to the same funeral opportunities that the other locals are entitled to: a 3 year stint in the cemetery followed by exhumation and either paid-for (on a yearly basis) storage of the bones or their grinding to fine dust. The excuse that Islam does not allow for exhuming is irrelevant – the fact that the dead people are Muslims does not entitle them to more rights than the others. If they want a permanent burial place then they will have to do the same as the rest of us – pony up and pay the exorbitant price to buy a grave (and pay the fee for it henceforth). Otherwise they can get shipped to Western Thrace or their countries of origin where the rules are different. I’m sure this is one complication that you had not even considered but that is nothing new.

It goes without saying that the opportunity of cremation (not relevant to Muslims btw.) should be offered immediately to all inhabitants of Greece. Of course the church is free to instruct all priests to avoid cremation ceremonies – that is their right.

By: Xenos

Xenos — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:35:23 +0000

There is a large contingent of Greek Muslims who are originally from Thraki, living in North-West Athens. They also have no access to legal mosques or proper funeral provisions. The response of the Greek state is to say that there are Greek Muslims only in Thraki, as provided by the Lausanne Treaty. If they migrate within Greece, they lose their rights.

Tells you something, doesn’t it…