There was another anti-immigrant gathering in Aghios Panteleimonas square in Athens yesterday. There were the typical “concerned” citizens spouting their usual “We are not racists but…” and a very vocal group of neo-nazis chanting “Foreigners out of Greece” and “Greece for Greeks”.
I really want to say something eloquent and intelligent to the racists but I am so angry, sad and hopeless that I can’t write. I type words and then I delete. I try once more and delete again. In the end, all I want to do is bury my head and ignore what is going on here.
Sorry people, words fail me again.
I’ll try again later…
Technorati Tags: greece, racism, immigration, neo-nazis, foreigners
Anti-Racism Rally on March 9th, 2010
Racist Attack on December 17th, 2009
Are Greeks Racist ? on September 29th, 2009
Racist Attacks on September 10th, 2009
Football Racism on September 8th, 2009
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When you get anti-immigrant shit from the two main party “leaders” (I use the word loosely, since they cannot even lead themselves), then of course. Out of the woodwork come all the lice and vermin, secure in the knowledge that the police and state are on their side.
The “concerned citizens” are just typical Greek malakes who cannot see or think beyond their pockets. As soon as they smell money from immigration, they change their song.
“Foreigners out of Greece” and “Greece for Greeks”
Aside from probably being personally threatened, which I can empathize, what exactly do you have a problem with the above statements? Is it that Greeks say this? That you are in Greece and hear this? Because, as you should be aware, non-western nations say these sort of things with impunity and are never brought to task for it from the west. I am curious to hear your reasoning.
Also, you do not and will not get much sympathy as long you allow people like Xenos to spew garbage such as…
Out of the woodwork come all the lice and vermin
This is the definition of hypocrisy, on his part and yours as well. You and he supposedly care about people and issues, though only as long as they coincide with your beliefs, granted you are much, much better than he is. No offense meant, truly.
See if these people are racist simply because they pay the social cost of uncontrolled immigration in terms of higher crime and demographic disposition then the term racist has no meaning.
i.e., in order to not be racist one has to just say oh well anyone and everyone welcome regardless of numbers or how easy it will be to assimilate or whether the economy has the jobs.
The business class wants mass immigration cause it is cheap labor for them, but common people do not because they shoulder the costs…i.e, the costs of mass illegal and legal immigration are socialized while the benefits are personalized.
Its not like these Greeks are asking to come to Greece after 2000 years roaming all over the world and are kicking the natives out, they just do not want to become a minority in their own house.
Greece is for the Greeks and should remain so, but we should welcome a number of immigrants and asylum seekers but clearly the total number of people here has gotten out of hand for Greece to deal with economically and otherwise.
While I understand Greece does not provide legalization or much asylum approvals..nonetheless the people are free to roam the country hence all these people who are in limbo.
Greece is like Florida in the USA being told by all the other states hey you have to let anyone in but do not dare let them come to the rest of the (states or in this case EU countries).
If Greece gave all these people EU citizenship and fare for their northern european socialist state of their choice they would be Germany and France issue. But unfortunately this is not a possibility..so what do we have is small 11,000,000 greece as bad guy while the other bleeding hearts from up North just shake their finger at us, but will not lift a finger to help…i.e. be willing to take a portion of the asylum seekers based on the population of their state.
i.,e if 100,000 asylum seekers come to Greece they should be distributed among the 20+ nations of Europe based on economy size and population size. in which case greece would get 10,000,000 divided by 400,000,000 = 2.5% of the burden.
and as far as economic migrants…sorry they should be turned away we already have plenty here both legal and illegal.
and I recall you were complaining that Greece does not give enough opportunities to immigrants in the economy and public sector jobs.. probably because we have high unemployment amongst natives who desire those jobs…if we let them work the “crap” jobs Greeks supposedly wont do..then we are exploiting them…actually the correct phrase should be jobs Greeks wont do at any wage..again this goes back to labor versus employers.
The reason they don’t want to be a minority is because they know the shit you get in Greece if you’re a minority. If we had taken care to make our “house” as you put it, welcoming and accommodating for minorities, at least as much as it is for the “majority” (if there is such a thing), then we would have nothing to fear from being a minority. Only, someone always is a minority and it’s not just because of your ethnicity.
But you refer to the “common people” and you have me wondering, who exactly are those supposed to be? If you’re Greek you’re basically middle-class, with very few exceptions at each end. Class and income lines are drawn along ethnic lines, nowadays, and that’s the only thing that’s ever changed with immigration. If it wasn’t for the refugees and the immigrants we’d have nobody to clean our trash and build our houses. I’d like to see the “generation of 700 Euros” then… Tough shit, innit? To graduate from a university and have to work in menial jobs as an unskilled worker for a pittance. Yeah, well, guess what, all those “legal and illegal” economic immigrants from Bangladesh and Pakistan and so on, that’s their case. Most of them leave their countries with skills and training and they end up dying while they clean a sewer in Kifissia or something gross and inhuman like that. And you really believe they took that kind of job from some Greek? Oh, because there’s no end to the Greeks who graduate from university and go to look for work in the sewers or in construction. Yeah, right.
You’re right about the situation in the rest of Europe though- google “sans papiers” and amuse yourself with the bleeding hearts in the North as you put it. They’re really such compassionate philanthropists, aren’t they?
Greeks want foreigners out of Greece eh? Well, too bad we didn’t start with the Americans in the 1950s distributing the food to the starving Greeks during the Marshall plan. Sometimes we need to remind these idiots that if it wasn’t for foreigners, Greeks would still be the day-laborers and maids of Europe as they were initially for the USA. Dropee tous!
Pardon? You really want to compare attitudes towards “foreigners” between Greece and the USA?
http://www.icare.to/news.php?e.....Germany%29
NPD ORDERED TO REMOVE ANTI-POLISH SIGNS (Germany)
A court has ordered the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD) to remove election signs declaring “Stop the Polish invasion” from a region of Germany near the border with Poland.
20/9/2009- The court in the state of Mecklenburg-Upper Pomerania said Saturday the signs were illegal and an incitement to racial hatred. In early September, the NPD hung more than 50 of the signs up in the Ueker-Randow district of the state which borders Poland and counts more than 1,000 Polish citizens as residents. Local authorities removed the placards, prompting a lawsuit by the NPD. In the first phase, the NPD succeeded in getting the support of a lower court to declare the district’s actions improper. Saturday’s decision by a higher court overturns the lower court’s action. A court spokeswoman told the DPA news service that the text and picture elements of the NPD placards were an affront to the human dignity of others and posed a danger for public security and order. The NPD’s only recourse now is to appeal the case to the Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe on the grounds that the party’s constitutional rights have been violated. The party, which is under observation by German domestic intelligence agencies for its anti-foreigner message, has been successful gaining votes in the economically weak region. In 2006 state elections, the NPD pulled in 7.3 percent of the vote, enough to gain representation in the state parliament. The party also holds 4 out of 47 seats on the district council.
© The Local – Germany
PD: you are very confused, in my opinion. If Greeks want to protest about crime, then they have my support. They are not: they are protesting about the presence of asylum-seekers. Besides, the biggest criminals in Greece are the politicians: I suggest that you Greeks go outside the Vouli and shout about how your money has been stolen. It was not stolen in such quantities by any immigrants.
Insofar as economic migrants are concerned, there are two issues. First, is that Greece never permitted any economic migration, so everyone arrived illegally. They continue to do so: whose fault is that? Secondly, the arrivals from the East are “mixed flows”, that is, some economic migrants and some refugees. Greece has a legal obligation to process applications under the Geneva Convention rapidly and fairly: it does not. The appalling situation with the asylum process is now well documented by HRW and others; the results of it are partly visible in Athens city centre. Again, whose fault is that?
So, in both cases the people responsible for these problems are the Greek government. Take your demonstrations there.
Stassa, that was not my point to compare USA’s approach on foreigners. What I’m saying is that Greece should be a little grateful to foreigners because foreigners have been propping up Greece for years. America has had no such dependence on foreign masters as Greece has and thus had no debt owed to foreign powers. (Although I admit, the USA may be incuring a debt with China now.)
I think Greece owes a debt to foreigners for a few more years. Google Marshall Plan if you are unclear about this. Because really, many Greeks today do not even know what this is. SAD really.
When you answer the next time, I ask politely for you to focus on Greece and not on the USA since this is about Greece wer’re talking about right? Maybe you could answer on why the Greek system does not help immigrants, gays etc.
Now, I know I’m going against my own comment, but in the states if you commit a crime against an immigrant or a homosexual etc, an additional jail sentence (hate crime) is added to your jail time. Do they do this Greece?? I think not.
From reading your previous posts, you seem to be fair about these issues, so please don’t be too nationalistic in supporting Greece in their bad behavior. It is best to ackowledge it and try to make it better rather than blame other countries.
Just my two Euros….
Masters? Try slaves.
America has had no such dependence on foreign masters
Aside from China who has been buying the US debt as if going out of style in order to give the appearance the US is still a first world nation.
Then India and Mexico to a lesser degree to continue to mirage that Americans are “wealthy” when in fact they force bottom of the barrel pricing for services and package it as “free market competition”.
Aside from those few “small” examples, you are correct.
Stassa, that’s it? I was hoping you could comment more on this issue.
CYD: Thank God at least China does value America! I always thought of it that as long as consumers are available to buy the Chinese crap, then America is safe from China. Remember, you don’t kill your customers!
Regarding the nationalists in Greece: When we see the right wing extremist groups touting how great/powerful Greece is, it makes me wonder where they think the “Juice” of this power comes from? Greece can’t even seem to stop the daily incursion of Turkish Aircraft entering the country, so that would be something to be embarrassed about (not brag about if I was a Greek Nationalist). At least with American nationalists, you can sorta understand where they are coming from since America has a powerful military and actually uses it from time to time to test it out. But, Greece? Do you find this humorous as I do that there are actually Greek nationalists? Gee, look at me, I’m Greece and I can’t even stop a Turkish Military plane or a little puny country from naming itself Macedonia! But, I’m a Great powerful country!! (LOL)
Finally, remember, I’m only talking theoretically from the minds of nationalists (of any nationality) because a rationale person would not think that power equates to greatness.
Nationalism does have to equate to “power”. Simply pride in your nation. At least that is how I interpret it.
Correction: Nationalism does NOT have to equate to power.
Xenos said:
PD: you are very confused, in my opinion. If Greeks want to protest about crime, then they have my support.
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To a certain extent the increase in crime and lack of neighborhood security is due to this mass migration issue.
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They are not: they are protesting about the presence of asylum-seekers.
——————-question is are all these people legitimate asylum seekers probably not—————–
Besides, the biggest criminals in Greece are the politicians: I suggest that you Greeks go outside the Vouli and shout about how your money has been stolen. It was not stolen in such quantities by any immigrants
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well touche you have point there but the members of vouli are not shooting up, dealing dope or hacking each other with Machetes or mugging anyone on the street physically either though.
__________________________________________–
I am a nationalist not because I think Greeks are a superior race vs. an inferior (that is not the question) or the quality of the military might but because I love my country and people.
I am humanastical but in the same way that I have more concern and attention and energy to give to my loved ones than a stranger I do not know..the same way reason I love my country and people more than others..not because I think others are less worthy human beings.
Again I said my view is that Greece should be for the Greeks, with a BUT/qualifications..and I will clarify:
BUT we have some traditional historic minorities who are not Christian or not Orthodox or of non-Greek ethnicity..their rights should be respected..so long as they do not engage in activity such as treason, spying etc.(which of course goes for ethnic Greeks too).
If we need workers then we need an agency to coordinate that with friendly countries some kind of guest worker program.
This would provide the needed employees to those who really need them while safguarding workers rights.
Asylum seekers claim should be processed but of course economic migrants will know that they can use that word Asylum to buy time.
So there has to be a way to sort the truth out.
And even regarding the ones that can be shown to be legitimate asylum seekers, then there has to be a limit based on resources and available services and demographic and social impact.
i.e, let me exaggerate to make a point what if 5,000,000 legitimate asylum seekers shows up on Greece’s door step can Greece deal with that? is that fair to ask any country to take on such a burden alone? This is why I say the EU needs to come up with a program and a number based on local economy and demographics to spread the burden around not just dump it on Greece, Malta and Italy and Spain.
i.e., we have this unfair rule that Greece (and Malta, and Italy etc) have to keep everyone who breaks in their borders..the northerners do not want to share the wealth only the moralism and obligation.
This new wave of people were not invited because firstly we do not need so many workers.
I did not say we do not need any of them…but we do not need so many as we have here now..
And quite honestly if we need workers we should pick what countries we use to invite.
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reply to:
Stassa
The reason they don’t want to be a minority is because they know the shit you get in Greece if you’re a minority.
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My friend look at the history of the globe and no nation wants to be a minority in its own house so to speak….btw we already were a dominant group in asia minor and now those people have either been driven out or assimilated out of existence.
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If we had taken care to make our “house” as you put it, welcoming and accommodating for minorities, at least as much as it is for the “majority” (if there is such a thing), then we would have nothing to fear from being a minority.
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This is naive.. No people group or nation state would find it acceptable to be over-run by others.
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Only, someone always is a minority and it’s not just because of your ethnicity.
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But states are by and large based on ethnicity with some excptions and secondly to a lesser degree a common religion or religious/culturual heritage.
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But you refer to the “common people” and you have me wondering, who exactly are those supposed to be? If you’re Greek you’re basically middle-class, with very few exceptions at each end. Class and income lines are drawn along ethnic lines, nowadays, and that’s the only thing that’s ever changed with immigration. If it wasn’t for the refugees and the immigrants we’d have nobody to clean our trash and build our houses.
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Like I said I am not against some guest workers but we do not need this many people and question: who did all these things in the past??????? before the 1990s???
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I’d like to see the “generation of 700 Euros” then… Tough shit, innit? To graduate from a university and have to work in menial jobs as an unskilled worker for a pittance. Yeah, well, guess what, all those “legal and illegal” economic immigrants from Bangladesh and Pakistan and so on, that’s their case. Most of them leave their countries with skills and training and they end up dying while they clean a sewer in Kifissia or something gross and inhuman like that. And you really believe they took that kind of job from some Greek? Oh, because there’s no end to the Greeks who graduate from university and go to look for work in the sewers or in construction. Yeah, right.
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Still we do not need this many people here.
we need a managed temporary guest worker program.
And maybe those jobs would pay more if there were strong unions or less black market labor.
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You’re right about the situation in the rest of Europe though- google “sans papiers” and amuse yourself with the bleeding hearts in the North as you put it. They’re really such compassionate philanthropists, aren’t they?
I doubt it. The big increase in crime in Greece was in the 1980s; there is also an increase now, but it is linked with the disastrous economy. It needs a serious criminologist to answer the question, but I might concede that Greek perceptions are that immigrants are to blame. It’s up to the government to address the issue, in terms of proper data: they didn’t.
It’s irrelevant, because the Greek police gave everyone at the front of the queue a Pink Card for 6 months, then refused to renew them. Greece has no idea what proportion of them are genuine refugees, and clearly it couldn’t give a fuck. All of those under 18 are entitled to protection anyway, and Greece imprisons them or ignore them.
Essentially, this mess is all of Greece’s own making. You signed the Dublin Convention (probably never intending to take it seriously); if this is an “unfair rule” then why did the Greek malakes sign it? It is not good putting forward extreme scenarios of large numbers of asylum-seekers: the maximum was 4,000 a month and these days it is much lower.
Personally, I do not suppport the Dublin Conventions, but I would never have signed them anyway. Greece did this to take money from the EU, thinking that its “masters” might be difficult if there were serious negotiations about asylum-seeking laws. Basically, you have crap politicians and political advisors: is that the fault of the refugees?
In the end, it all comes back to the Greek people. YOU are responsible for your country and your governments: stop trying to blame others. And put your illegal asylum system straight before complaining about immigrants.
BTW: I have the same sort of answers to xenophobes in my own country of origin. And I do not accept your cynical comments about “bleeding hearts in the North”. There are a few activists in Greece, but most people are too egocentric to think of anyone else: this is less true in the rest of Europe, where pro-immigrant activism is more normal.
So, cut it with the condescension: Greeks have nothing to be proud of in this area.
I thought I’d post this video on my blog with subtitles in English so that people can see for themselves the kind of extreme beliefs that pass for “common sense” in the minds of racists. The speeches are the usual far right mix of hyperbole, lies and self – pity.
http://teacherdudebbq.blogspot.....igner.html
Thanks, the subtitles are really helpful. I repeat my previous statement, that the lice and vermin come out when the state is weak or complicit. Most of these people are simply deluded and half-witted; they belong to the medieval period, not to the modern world. The chanting Nazis, on the other hand, belong in prison.
There is nothing to defend here, PD: why do you bother? And Cyd, of course, is just a racist and nationalist — so he approves.
Just a quick note to inform that about a hundred kids from Pagani were released in Athens, according to tvsx.gr, though I don’t know the date this happened:
Later, it says that:
I can’t believe they left a hundred kids on their own in Athens. What the fuck? Fuck.
Post Disagreement,
I’m not going to argue with you. Απλά ευχήσου να μην βρεθείς ποτέ στη θέση αυτών των ανθρώπων, εσύ κι οι δικοί σου άνθρωποι. Ρόδα είναι και γυρνάει.
Και δε στο λέω σαν απειλή. Κι εγώ στο εύχομαι και το εύχομαι κατ’ αρχήν για μένα.
And Cyd, of course, is just a racist and nationalist — so he approves.
Nationalist, yes. Racist? By your warped definition, definitely. By standard, normal definitions, definitely not. Though I couldn’t give a fuck what you say as you are simply a demented, pompous twit. Something who hasn’t TRULY accomplished anything aside from pulling the wool over more naive eyes.
Regardless of your glaring failings, I do not see the counter-argument to nationalism? Not that one was ever put forth here. Why, aside of course for the cries of “racism”, is nationalism a bad thing? Why is it bad for some countries and not others? Why is it horrible for people to be proud of their own countries and protect these countries for their progeny? I’m all ears to hear this damning counter-argument.
Oh yes…if anyone has the gall to throw the dreaded 1939-1945 “H-man” and the eternal vigilance to prevent another as the reasons for opposing nationalism, then save it. An empty, useless argument, but then that is all that seems to be around here. Only cries of racism and shrieks of vermin and lice emanate from the “elite”.
Really, Xenos? Disappointing.
If I remember correctly the rise in violent crime was still minuscule and compared to western countries it’s quite low. Can you verify that?
Yes, the crime rates in Greece are very low by EU standards, and Athens especially is the safest big city in Europe. The biggest problem is actually pedestrians and motorcyclists killed by cars, but you dont hear Greeks suggesting that cars should be banned… no no, they want even more of those.
Cyd, you cannot even tell the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Very few Greeks are patriots, they are more concerned with puffing themseleves up telling the world how clever they are. I imagine that you identify with that, though.
Because it’s a threat to the unity of Europe, and any threat to the unity of Europe is a threat to peace. And war in Europe is going to seriously fuck up everyone and their little sister, regardless of colour, race, class or any other characteristic. It’s some eight centuries of history. Marx wasn’t even alive then, you can read it qutie safely. Start with the Holy Roman Empire. I mean, do, if you want a rational argument against nationalism.
Not that I disagree with your scorn about Hitler and how he’s something like the Evil Mickey Mouse of popular politics. But I personally wouldn’t like to see a new Napoleon either, or a new Bismark or whatever you have. Yet those are the fruits of the tree of national pride. Rotten fruit with poison seeds.
Xenos,
Do you know the magazine, Resalto?
It’s here:
http://www.resaltomag.gr/
You wanna hang with those guys?
Post Disagreement,
I’m not going to argue with you. Απλά ευχήσου να μην βρεθείς ποτέ στη θέση αυτών των ανθρώπων, εσύ κι οι δικοί σου άνθρωποι. Ρόδα είναι και γυρνάει
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Then dont argue.. I did NOT wish any evil on these people my friend I do NOT hate immigrants or asylum seekers.
And yes I recognize our common humanity, and humans should help each other but we have levels and degrees for obligation and responsibility and people and groups and nations have limitations. So, by saying I care for my people more than others does not mean i do not care at all about anyone else its just an affirmation I have a greater obligation to my own family before strangers.
And if its true that minors were released like that is unconsionable. I am not saying the Greek government is being mistreated in this, but the Greek people are… the government is to blame for not having a better procedure and policy to deal with the whole immigration and asylum seeker issues…not the ordinary Greek people.
Yet that does not mean that peoples frustration with ghettos popping up and hordes of unemployed foreigners changing their country are bad people.
It does not mean that these people (meaning the migrants) are inherently evil, they for the most part come for a better life.
My point is its like you are calling me a stingy bastard..when the reality is I am not rich myself. thats what your doing.
BTW considering that many of these people are Mulsim I wish they and their coreligionist recognized the humanity of the Christian minorities in Muslim countries. but thats another story.
These migrants are neither devils nor are the angels either..i.e, jsut because your poor does not make you an innocent angel who is being victimized because someone else is better off.
I do have a better life then these people but that does not mean I have the resources to help every and anyone just because they need it or show up on my door.
And yes I would help my poorer cousins first before a foreigner not because I hate foreigners but they are my immediate kins people..and i have first obligation to them.. This does not mean I would or have never helped non-Greeks. Just pointing out the basics here.
I wish all these people had better lives in their own country that they did not feel the need to flee their homelands.
But there has to policy procedures and there are limits…
thats just the reality this is not physically the size of australia with the economy and industry of Germany or Japan.
I wish I was God and could wave a magic wand and just help everybody but I am not and Greeks are not they have as you pointed out their own internal troubles…my point is that these poor people have been lied to….that if they get to Greece/EU they would be in paradise…or be meeting a super wealthy uncle.
What they do not know and I agree with Xenos on this is that Greece is a state with a highly bureacratic government that has many internal problems …so if you do not know that ..know that now.
Greece can not absorb unlimited numbers of foreigners.
even if it was a lot more ogranized and efficient.
People like those Greeks in the video are frustrated and instead of having some sympathy or willingness to address their concern you dismiss them as Nazis…so guess what happens…otherwise moderate people feel compelled to embrace more extreme voices because no one cares for their concerns or frustrations.
I am saying is and in a round about way I do sort of agree with Xenos on some things..Greece can not manage this amount of people…I did not tell the Greek government to sign anything..and I think if more ordinary people understood the consequences they would not have put up with it.
Its not like somebody told us guess what the world is going to send you 100,000s of people get ready for it.
Finally, I resent you making me into some kind of heartless monster just because I think there should be some kind of immigration control.
I do think you ignore that there are in fact Greeks who do charity work towards migrants.
I think you ignore that the natives need more jobs that pay more and if we are going to accomodate these people we need more jobs and resources for them too but guess what thats not here right now..so we should just add more social problems because Pakistanis and Bangladeshis do not know the word birth control or America wants to bomb every country in the middle east.
Tha Pleeronoume olos ta spazmena? this is not a possibility.
Yes should Greece as a relatively stable country take in some economic and asylum migrants yes..but whats going now is unsustainable in 20 year we have over 1,000,000 +++ new people thats a 10% change or more…
And Governments are not GOD or all powerful to fix everything.
Yes the government is partly to blame but this phenomena of mass migration is not an easy thing to handle. esp.. if you are a small economy with a small population.
Stop demonizing Greeks because it is not prepared to handle American caused problems, and Islamic lack of birth control.
CYD, I don’t know if you live here in Athens, but I’d be very curious to know if the Greek nationalists are similiar to the old fart I saw yesterday at a Metro station. He dropped two tickets on the ground and I pointed it out and he snapped to me “I’ll just throw them out somewhere else”. I said to him that I thought they were new tickets, but he just threw them out as trash on the ground. I then lectured him, that as a tourist, I have more respect for Greece than he does, and does he not have any pride in his country? He just walked away. Are these the nationalists who litter the country they think so great?? Sure, in extremely poor areas in the USA, you may see litter, but not in the nicer cities. This was in Kiffisia, and as anyone knows, Greeks litter all over the country, and wealth or status does not play a part as it does in other countries. Where are the nationalists to protest Greeks littering the country into the third world?? Or are they too busy complaining about foreigners to see the garbage their own people create!
Post Disagreement,
I’m not going to argue with you. Απλά ευχήσου να μην βρεθείς ποτέ στη θέση αυτών των ανθρώπων, εσύ κι οι δικοί σου άνθρωποι. Ρόδα είναι και γυρνάει
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i wish muslim turkey had this attitude or in mind before they treated my family the way they did..i.e we are all each others people..what u do comes back to you….
so my friend my immediate family was in such a situation..and guess what…caused by muslims and nationalist turks…so sorry if it is not understandable to you why my heart is not as wide open to muslims why i maybe uncomfortable with prospect of greek minority Greece esp. when many of those coming to our door are co-religionist of those who perpetrated inhumanity to my pople and family.
but the best all you can do is to shout racist nazi bloody murder never ever try to understand the other side…
btw i never did anything to cause these migrants problem and i do not have the resources to help them. so how is it that i personally am being evil..or uncaring or whatever…i can not help them… not i wont.. i can not…corporatly the state can do more but this is still a big problem. its unfair to demonize Greeks and Greece for problems in other countries..
just like xenos says…do not blame immigrants for greeces problem do not blame greeks for immigrants problems…i.e,
we did not cause wars in afghanistan or eritrea..or force pakistanis to have 10 children.
so i suggest you moderate your attitude as well.
so once again what is everybody here doing to help…besides complaining about what others are doing wrong do your own posirtive thing even if its an hour a week or 10 euros a month to some downtrodden person if thats all you can afford in time or money…
stop complasining about how greeks are selfish and lead by example in your own lives. rather than demonizing those whose mind you wish were changed and calling them malakes and peasants etc…btw what are all the migrants educated aristocrats…and is it not classist of you to look down on peasdants..liberal people that we are?
i hardly think littering is a comparable to a social and demographic phenomena and issue.
and being a nationalist does not have to mean:
hating others
having suprmacist beliefs
or lying to yourself about problem w your country
it simply means love for ones own people and country.
yes there are others that have a negative side in there nationalism..
i see no point talking here..basically…
Greeks and Greece are evil if we do not consent to unending mass migration and catastrophic demographic change cause mohammed wont let fatima go on the pill..and america wants to take a shit all over the middle east and we have to wipe it all clean.
okay you win we are all evil scumbags and nazis..
does that make you feel better or superior now.
keep demonizing its working for you and your causes
I saw an old man throw down some trash, therefore he was a nationalist, therefore all Greeks are nationalists and they are all worse than the USA who I’m not comparing them to and who are not nationalistic because they don’t throw down any trash.
- Marshall Plain.
Post Disagreement,
How many people do you say are in Greece now as refugees, who don’t have anything with them and need everything provided by the Greek state? 100.000? It was 20.000 last year by UN estimates but let’s say 100.000, it’s a good, overblown number.
Now say we’re 10.000.000 Greeks in Greece, not counting the immigrants, the Albanians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Roma and so on, ’cause they’re not Greeks and we only care about Greeks.
So do you know what it would cost to us real Greeks to give away 700 Euros a month to every one of them, just like that, because we have a big heart and we would love to help people, if only we could? That’s 10.000.000 Greeks, giving 700 Euros, every month to 100.000 refugees. You can do the math, eh? It’s 7 cents per Greek per month. Εφτά Ευρώ το μήνα. And we’ re not even talking about giving that much money to anyone, δεν είπαμε να τους δώσουμε και broadband, just detaining them in human conditions. How do you think that costs?
And how do you think it costs, for 10.000.000 Greek citizens to support about a hundred kids, left on their own in Athens? Can you do that math? ‘Cause at this point, I’m afraid my ALU has just overflown with bile and I just want to spit a big wad of it on the screen. So you do the math.
Εκατό παιδιά ρε κακομοίρη. Αυτά φοβάσαι μή σου φάνε το ψωμί; Αντί να κάθεσαι και να σκέφτεσαι δικαιολογίες, ας έστιβες το μυαλό σου να βρεις μια λύση, να έχεις κι εσύ τη βολή σου, να μην πάνε στράφι κι αυτοί οι άνθρωποι. Αλλά με πορδές δε βάφονται αυγά, λένε στο χωριό μου.
Εφτά λετά το μήνα.
Λεπτά, γαμώτο. Δε με θέλει.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/200.....nts-greece
France: Don’t Return Calais Migrants to Greece
EU Asylum Disparities Put Those Sent Back at Risk of Mistreatment
September 25, 2009
(Paris) – Many of the hundreds of migrants arrested by French authorities following the destruction of their makeshift camp in Calais are at risk of being sent back to Greece, Human Rights Watch said today.
The French police reportedly arrested 276 migrants, including 125 children, on September 22, 2009, and destroyed their makeshift camp. The French immigration minister said several months ago that many asylum seekers entered through Greece and should be returned there. The New York Times, reporting on the situation, cited remarks by French officials that those who had entered the European Union through Greece would be returned there. The UK’s home secretary is quoted in The Guardian expressing his “delight” at the Calais operation and saying that the migrants there could seek asylum in the first country they entered, meaning that many are likely to be returned to Greece.
“France, the UK, and the rest of Europe act as if everything is perfectly fine in Greece,” said Bill Frelick, refugee policy director at Human Rights Watch. “But Greece denies 99.5 percent of all asylum claims, has recently eliminated its appeals procedure, and detains migrants in deplorable conditions.”
Human Rights Watch said that France and the UK should ensure that any children among those removed who have family members in the UK, including siblings and other close relatives, are able to join them on humanitarian grounds.
Under the European Union’s Dublin II regulations, the country where a person first entered the EU is generally held responsible for examining that person’s asylum claim, whether or not the person applied there. European governments enter the fingerprints of all migrants they apprehend into an EU-wide database that allows other governments to trace where a person first entered the EU and to send that person back.
While the Dublin II regulations are premised on the notion that all EU member states have comparable asylum and migration practices, there are wide disparities, with some countries like Greece effectively offering no protection at all. This disparity underscores the importance of reforming the Dublin system and ensuring that EU member states are held to account for their failure to respect their obligations under EU law to provide access to asylum.
Human Rights Watch has called on European governments, in two reports released in 2008, to stop sending migrants and asylum seekers, including unaccompanied children, back to Greece under the Dublin II regulations. The reports said that Greece fails to guarantee a fair assessment of asylum claims, continues to detain migrants and asylum seekers in conditions that can be inhuman and degrading, and has not provided adequate reception conditions for migrants, or special protection for vulnerable groups, such as unaccompanied migrant children. Greece also adopted a law in July abolishing a meaningful appeals procedure. The new law leaves asylum seekers with no right to an appeal or remedy against risk of removal to inhuman or degrading treatment, as required by article 39 of the EU’s procedures directive and articles 13 and 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Asylum seekers whose claim has been rejected are at risk of being immediately deported.
Concerns are further heightened, Human Rights Watch said, due to Greece’s recent arrests of large numbers of asylum seekers and their transfer to detention centers in the north, close to the Turkish border, where some are reported to have been pushed across the border back to Turkey. Greece has a record of systematically pushing migrants back to Turkey, including those seeking protection.
On August 5, Human Rights Watch wrote to the Greek interior minister asking him to take immediate steps to stop this practice and to treat migrants apprehended in Greek territory in a humane and dignified manner.
In a November 2008 report, “Stuck in a Revolving Door: Iraqis and Other Asylum Seekers and Migrants at the Greece/Turkey Entrance to the European Union,” Human Rights Watch documented how Greek authorities have systematically expelled migrants illegally across the Greece-Turkey border, in violation of international law. These “pushbacks” typically occur at night from the northern detention facilities, and they involve considerable logistical preparation. At that time, Human Rights Watch conducted private, confidential interviews in various locations in both Greece and Turkey with 41 asylum seekers and refugees, who gave consistent accounts of Greek authorities taking them to the Evros river at night and then forcing them across.
France and other EU member states are bound under the European Convention on Human Rights not to return a person to a country where he or she is at risk of inhuman and degrading treatment (Article 3) and bound by the international legal principle of nonrefoulement. The Dublin Convention allows parties to exercise their discretion under article 3 (2) (the sovereignty clause) not to return an asylum seeker and to examine the asylum claim themselves.
“It is hard not to have the impression that European governments are perfectly happy with Greece doing the dirty work for them and giving them the opportunity to get rid of these migrants, including potential refugees,” Frelick said. “Instead of sending them back to Greece, French authorities should ensure these migrants have the chance to apply for asylum in France.”
Well, several issues. First, there are almost no recognised refugees in Greece because the Greek state refuses to obey the Geneva Convention, They are still no more than 20,000. The number of recorded asylum-seekers Jan-June 2009: 10,000. The number of people who arrived in an irregular fashion through Turkey this year? Also unknown, but last year was 45,000. These are not very large numbers, and ND has been playing a political game with the Greek people and with the lives of foreigners, some of whom are minors. So, where is the “unending mass migration” that you are talking about, PD?
Nationalism is not patriotism. Patriots love their country and try to protect its positive values, enhance them and develop the quality of life, and (in extremis) protect the country from invasion. Nationalism, in my vocabulary [OED defines it as extreme patriotism] is a political ideology. It has nothing to do with quality of life, or love of your country. It is a mentality, a negative way of thinking about the world. Furthermore, it is focused on the “nation” as opposed to the country. This is evident in Greeks who care nothing about their own country — but are manically nationalist, mainly derived from school and party political propaganda. A patriot would not litter the streets, but a nationalist could not care less. Greeks are generally nationalist and rarely patriotic. Even their behaviour with money speaks volumes: anyone with capital would smuggle it (illegally) out of Greece into a secret Swiss bank account, over the last 40 years or so. That is actually treason, not patriotism.
PD: obviously, I don’t know your family history. However, I do know many others whose families fled Smyrna. The evidence available to me, from both recorded and oral history, is that the real problem was the Greek invasion of Asia Minor. The Turks defended their country, and after atrocities from the Greek military, also started to commit atrocities against Christians. The situation was terrible; but you should ask yourself the question “who was responsible for that?”
The situation with Turkey post-1923 is more related to Turkish nationalism and religious intolerance, along with a reluctance to follow the spirit and letter of the Lausanne Convention. Again, a reason to decry the Balkan nationalist movements — as if we needed anything more than the first Balkan Wars. Did you not see what happened in in recent years in Yugoslavia? — initially with Serbian nationalism, then later, Croatian, Albanian, …
Try to remember your comments about ‘22 next time you write about the Chams, Xenos.
What have the Chams to do with that? The Greek army invaded and took Chameria in 1913, and the Chams refused to be “turned into” Greeks, unlike the Vlachs. They resisted the Greek occupation of their land. Greeks have behaved like fascists with them: there is no analogy with 1922, where the Greek army was stupid enough to think it could defeat the Turks.
to Stassa says:
I do think that Greece can do more for legitimate asylum seekers.
Quite simply Greece was not ready (i.e, facilities etc. to process all these people).
I am not saying its okay what they did to those kids.
However, we are also talking about illegal and legal immigration.
Yes we need some people in Greece to fill holes in the labor market…but I think at this point we have taken in all we need and more. We do not need any more immigrants at this point.
Asylum seekers is another story.
Xenos:
The Greeks invaded were ceded Smyrna after WW1 and later ran a war of expansion. But prior to that the Turks in 1915 and 18 and of course after and before those years committed atrocities against unarmed Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks (Pontos).
As far as I know any atrocities the Greeks did were after these events and were not on the same scale, like 1,000 versus 100s of thousands by the Turks…and keep in mind that those were after WWI.
So the Turkish atrocities were not limited to Smyrna at the end of the war and even those were disproportionate and its almost like you are saying we started the war so civilians deserved that.
When in fact Turkey ’s CUP started persecuting all her minorities before WWI (which was before the Greco Turkish war that followed ).
My point still stands though…these migrants ( note: I am not talking about asylum seekers ) who are muslim come from societies and cultures that look down and mistreat their Christian minorities…i.e. Pakistan.. these are poor people
not innocent angels..Where is the UMAA we hear about to help her own people? All Saudi Arabia wants to do is build a mosque, how about some charity for their own coreligionist. i.e, got to your own extended family or community for help first before you show up on my door.
I know about the Armenian genocide, but I have no evidence about Greeks at that time. Sorry to be dismissive, but I am sceptical about the accuracy of Greek opinions on this point. Maybe there is some recorded history on this, but I have not found it.
The post-1922 horrors have a lot of recent scholarship derived from interviews with Greek refugees, which is now concluding that the Greek army was the primary cause of those later problems. These conclusions are from Greek scholars, and are part of why the revised school textbook on Greek history removed mention of the Asia Minor atrocities. Of course, ignorant Greeks protested and the pathetic ND government reinstated the old textbook and dismissed the poor Education Minister. Such is Greek nationalism.
On asylum-seekers, you labour under a delusion — namely that Greece ever had any intention of permitting asylum. The only time when Greece gave out asylum readily was in the 1980s and early 1990s to Turkish Kurds, just to get at Turkey. The PKK established itself in Greece for fund-raising; Greece also had a slush fund to finance terrorism in Turkey. So, when Greece decided that it was a bad idea to continue the practice, they simply refused to give asylum to anyone.
In other words, political asylum in Greece has always been a political act and nothing to do with the Geneva Convention. The number of people arriving is irrelevant to that, although they are obviously more visible. Still, the numbers are not so high — as I explained in my post. You did not respond to that. And they are all classed as lathrometanastes when they arrive in Greece; there is an appalling mess of a fake asylum process; and illegal returns of persons in need of protection. Greece has no excuse, so don’t bother trying.
Correction: I should have written “post-1920 horrors” in para 2.
Well, it seems that you will excuse the killing of, admittedly probably very low, hundreds of thousands because some had assisted an army that was legally present in the territory but you will certainly not excuse the killing of less than a thousand, by that EDES Cham what’s-his-name, that actually *did* behave like fascists by siding with fascism and nazism against their actual country. Not that ethnic cleansing is ‘excusable’ either way but someone doesn’t seem to agree…
Dayum. Greek nationalism. Yes. Bad.
No. I deplore all loss of human life. I am just trying to set the record straight, that it is not a matter of “bad Turks”, “bad Chams” and “good Greeks”. If you accept that, then we probably agree.
And Greek nationalism (like Turkish nationalism) is bad for the reasons I stated above, whereas patriotism (which should also apply to your city or village) is fine, by me.
No, that’s a bunch of bullshit also. “Patriotism” is just “nationalism” by another name. It’s just another populist shiboleth, adressed to a different target group, that’s all. If you understand that the good of your community is good for yourself, you don’t need to call yourself anything. You only need to define yourself as a patriot if you care about waving a little flag and accusing others of not adhering to some arbitrary morality rules, that always have to do with “Greeks don’t do this” or “Brits don’t do that”.
Like, “patriotic people don’t litter”. What a bunch of bullshit. And then you expect respect as a social scientist? That’s grade-school έκθεση ιδεών. Social sciences gotta be more advanced than that.
As a frequent visitor to Greece and UK, I do notice that immigrants here in Greece are treated much more suspiciously than in the UK (personal experience). And I do agree that littering is a problem in Greece as it is in many Balkan countries. If littering and graffiti are not addressed by the people of Greece, how can Europe take them seriously on more important issues. Look at Athens, it’s a pig-sty, even in the nicer areas unfortunately. Clean up Athens, do your part. Don’t litter!
Greece does not claim 150,000 entrants from Turkey but from all around including Albania. I cannot find the source but I am certain having seen breakdowns by border.
They are consistently claiming that the number of border apprehensions plus arrests in Athens etc. is the real number of irregular migrants per year, and last year was 150,000. This is despite the fact that many of these arrested in Athens and Thess. have been here for years, and some have even previously held residence permits. It is a clear case of official fraud.
Here is one article, with the actual data and commentary: http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.ellada&id=55623
No, we can completely agree on that. I don’t believe in the eternally good Greeks vs the eternally bad Others exist either.
We can still agree to disagree on some historical issues, though.
Ignore the ‘exist’ in the previous message.
Point is today Greece has more than 10% change in population whether they are legal or illegal and most Greeks think this more than enough at this point.
And 20,000 asylum seekers even if they are all legit, will become much more than that if economic migrants think that Greece is a soft touch for asylum claims they will just say I need asylum.
Anyway ignoring that for now, you can not say they protesting about asylum seekers but rather migrants in general.
I think what should happen is that “undocumented”/illegal migrant people who can show that they have a sponsor..employer who needs them should get a work permit for a period of x number of years. Those who are not asylum seekers, and have no work and entered illegally should be humanely repatriated back to their homelands perhaps even with an incentive..i.e, some amount of cash to leave along with the airfare to do so.
Post D: this was supposed to happen in 1997 and the Greek state screwed it up. You can read a detailed account of the legalisations on the MMO site. I should say that both Pasok and ND have failed with constructing a legal immigration policy, but have also failed to manage legalisations. 6 month or 1 year permits, when the requirements to renew are almost impossible and the state takes a year to process the application anyway…
There is a good summary of policy failure in this week’s Athens Plus (Kathimerini offshoot) http://wwk.kathimerini.gr/kath.....9-2009.pdf
Besides, people with a long period of residence probably have the right to stay,according to recent ECHR jurisprudence. It’s too late now to talk about the people living here. Almost all EU countries now have foreign-born populations in excess of 10%, and the older immigration countries (France, UK) with more like 20%. Europe needs younger people because of the demographic shift, so Gteece just has to accept that that is the future. The real problem is getting the Greek economy to function, instead of the disaster that prevails.
It’s too late now to talk about the people living here.
>>>NO its NOT<<<>> and even if it were true, then we should accept 0 ZERO more people..will have to tell asylum seekers as well…tough your spots were all taken up we let in to many people before you arrived.<<<<<<<>>>>yes its terrible only european christian based countries are experiencing this nwo planned genocide to swamp us out and make us all minorities so rothschilds and gang could control us even more<<>>no it does not,…it needs its own people to make more people, and due to mechanization etc we do not need more people, if we let the population fall prices will drop which will make having families cheaper, prices of houses and food will be cheaper<<>>we have our own young people…is it not evil for us to steal other countries young people…they need them there too<<>>well since its a disaster as you say why bring more people into it makes no sense whatsoever….we do not need any NEW economic migrants thats a fact..<<<<
again asylum seekers..the ones that are legit are a different story but as PD pointed out we have other entry points besdies Turkey so that 150,000 number sounds not to far off.
enough is enough..
Lets be very plain here no people savors the possibility of becoming a minority in their house.
1,000,000 + people is a lot to absorb in 20 years.
Thats enough.
we need no more economic migrants.
obviously many of them are unemployed or underemployed which indicates even with “jobs Greeks wont do” we have that covered now.
Name me one ethnic group that welcomes themselves becoming a minority….NONE.
As also shown by Greece’s modern history, Greeks just cannot accept reality. The whole country needs psychological counselling. Your problem is that your politicians do nothing to modernise the economy, steal money in vast quantities, and are generally incompetent. Deal with it, instead of blaming others.
And the link that I provided, explains very clearly why 150,000 illegal entries a year is a lie. If you want to shout emotional rubbish, then do so, but don’t expect normal sane people to take you seriously.
Diva, if I repost Xenos’ comments they’ll have to be linked back here.
This is what I meant. 150,000 is the official number Greece gives but you are right to say they claim they are all illegal entrants and they did that in August at the UN.
see http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3505
The total known arrivals via Turkey for last year was 45,000 — considerably less than 150,000. The numbers for this year are kept quiet, apart from misleading partial data they release. Of the people arrested or detained in 2008 for not having papers, 72,000 (just under half) were Albanians!
Stassa, please understand that there are personal privacy issues for all of us, even if you do not share that view. Presumably, it is the absence of unpleasant experiences related to it, in your case. If you want to make similar points to those in the deleted posts, I will respond again.
As also shown by Greece’s modern history, Greeks just cannot accept reality. The whole country needs psychological counselling. Your problem is that your politicians do nothing to modernise the economy, steal money in vast quantities, and are generally incompetent. Deal with it, instead of blaming others.
Why would these two facts be mutually exclusive in your highly esteemed mind, Mart…err…Xenos?
Since my previous, well directed if I may also add, comment has been deleted, I will state again, you have no idea what patriotism and nationalism mean. As you yourself clearly stated you compared patriotism and nationalism, AS YOU DEFINE THEM and deemed them different though most normal thinking people use the standard dictionary definition which states they are the same.
Now, how is nationalism bad?
To Diva, why are comments deleted that challenge this belligerent disgrace of an “academic” who has to use a pseudonym after being chased out of here when he used his real name some time ago? His words are vile, sure enough. They are only directed at people who you seem to think deserve this abuse.
All comments that contain personal data/information have been deleted. This is not for the protection of ONE person but for all of us who write “inflammatory” material. I have ALL the original comments as a record. Don’t worry, I have done this many times for people who need and deserve protection… including myself. When people receive death threats (with or without authenticity) I must take it seriously.
No personal information like real names, home addresses telephone numbers (unless published by yourself) will be allowed on this blog. I don’t care how clever YOU think you are…there are others who really do wish harm on people like me or other people who comment here. So…. however angry you are, let’s keep it anonymous and in words only.
It is notable that someone with racist ideas, who supports nationalism and thinks it is identical with patriotism, is complaining about the protection of people’s personal rights. Even with this clear policy of DD, he tries to circumvent it and threaten me.
Such behaviour belongs in the gutter, as do the backward ideas of race.
I also object to the quotation marks around the word academic. This is just pure venom, from an anonymous petty-minded person. I am not interested to discuss anything with ignorant pieces of shit like that.
Oh why don’t you go back to your “hallowed halls” of lunacy where people are either too afraid to question you or too stupid to realize the lying, belligerent, little cretin that you are. Those are your sycophants that supposedly sing your “academic” praises. Brought out into a sterilizing light, and you wither just like all other “academic” weeds of your repugnant ilk.
I also find it excessively rich that YOU, of all people, find it insulting when brought to task on issues. LOL You, who has no shortage of “venom”. Go back to your little “organization”. Hahaha
Oh, and for the last time, if you have a problem with the definitions of patriotism and nationalism, take it up with Merriam-Webster. Don’t just make it up as you are want to do with everything in your pathetic life!
Diva, Thanks for making your blog a safe place for all because there are creepy people on this blog. Thanks for being a good citizen.
DeviousDiva, you’re like, totally Xeno’s bitch, ain’t you?
The problem with the internet is that, unlike other institutions such as universities or places of employment, scum think that they can do as they like.
DD, all decent people support you on the policy of non-disclosure of personal details. Thank you for this protection from potentially dangerous people.
As also shown by Greece’s modern history, Greeks just cannot accept reality. The whole country needs psychological counselling. Your problem is that your politicians do nothing to modernise the economy, steal money in vast quantities, and are generally incompetent. Deal with it, instead of blaming others
-This is a nasty mantra you have against Greeks, we need psychological counseling because we do not want to be part of th NWO suicide cult..of mass uncontrolled immigration.
-The problems of our politicians and economy are not being blamed on immigrants. you are confusing the issue on purpose.
-in fact I agree we have corrupt politicians stealing vast quantities of money, but so does every other country from America and Britain on down to Zimbabwe…however, that is not a reason to say a country must transform its demographic to please the ruling plutocratic private international banking cartel ..Rothschilds and Co. Just because they know that mostly homogenous countries are harder to control than highly diverse and highly multicultural ones. Its about control.
You and Diva have to be in the pay of the likes of Soros.
You Demonize GReeks for wanting to preserve their nation for themselves as a majority Greek state. Regardless of the reason for the state of our economy its not existing for the purpose of the economic needs of foreigners.
i.e, if our economy is bad, then yes we have to deal with it.
***if we have holes in our labor market..THEN OUR NEED for labor dictates who and how many we should let in. (its a mutual benefit thing) (just to be clear again cause you like to confound issues to confuse the point…I am talking about economic migrants…not genuine asylum seekers).
I am not going to discuss asylum seekers further I am taking about economic migrants.
You should seek psychological counseling as to why you hate Greeks and really anyone who has any desire to preserve their peoples state as a homeland for their own people.
Why do you side with Turkey and FYROM so much.
Fact “macedonia” was only namd that way by Tito during the cold war because he had his eyes on our Aegean Province.
Why wont they accept a compromise which qualifies that they are no the only ones entitled to use that name..i.e. slav macedonia?
what does all that hev to do with “anti-immigrant protest?
The pontificating fool states:
DD, all decent people support you on the policy of non-disclosure of personal details. Thank you for this protection from potentially dangerous people.
A red herring. Stassa aside, who you goaded into an argument as you do to all, no one wanted to “out” any personal information. This is an inept attempt at diversion.
Your chore is to defend why nationalism is bad and why it is acceptable and even promoted unequally amongst various ethnic groups, or in other words RACES. Get to work.
I (and my family) have been threatened so many times in the past that I am not willing to see ANYONE put in that position.
@Cyd
You may think this is a “red herring” but I will protect the right of ANYONE to comment here without threat. Remember… I know what it feels like.
People,
it’s ok to disagree (as you can see I allow hundreds of comments of disagreement) but please do not post personal info about ANYONE here. I don’t care how clever you think you are… private information is out of bounds.
Nah. You’re just a spineless coward, hiding behind a pseudonym. There is no danger and no harm can come from having your personal details anywhere on the internet, or off of it. Here are mine, yet again (’cause I can’t be arsed to check if DeviousDiva deleted them):
Stassa Patsantzis
Flat 5,
38 Bedford Square
Brighton, East Sussex
BN1 2PL
And here’s my last Greek address, just in case I go back there:
Ζωοδόχου Πηγής 109
Νεάπολη Εξαρχείων
11473
And here’s my piccies:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31341372@N04/
(so’s we know just what I look like.)
I have nothing to fear. Not from you and your pathetic excuse of a threat for litigation, not from Xrysa mou Avga, not from any arsehole in the world. I eat arseholes for breakfast. But you ‘re just a yellow livered prick, who pays lip service to “freedom of speech” and hasn’t got the balls to sign his words with his name. You suck, so hard, your dick must be popping out the top of your head by now.
DeviousDiva, thanks a lot for everything. Dunno who made you so ready to jump at shadows and be so afraid of a few clowns with swasticas, but you have nothing to fear from them, except from letting them make you live your life in fear.
Here: Γαμώ τη Χρυσή Αυγή, τον Παπαδόπουλο, τον Παττακό, το Μεταξά και το μουνί της Χάϊδως (της κόρης του Μαρκεζίνη). Γαμώ το έθνος σας και το βασιλιά σας, γαμώ τη σημαία σας και γαμώ τα στρατά σας. Γαμώ τη Μακεδονία και τη Θράκη σας και το χαλβά Φαρσάλων (αμάν, βαρύ αυτό). Γαμώ και την Πόλη σας, γαμώ και τη Σμύρνη σας, γαμώ και τις βραχονησίδες και την υφαλοτρυπίδα σας.
So, who were you afraid of, DeviousDiva? Again?
Is it? You can hide your skin colour or your gender when you walk down the road? ‘Cause I can’t.
People with little or no experience of life, Stassa, should not be so arrogant as to lecture those who have and who know better. There are plenty of crazies and nasty-minded people around, not to mention criminals who set up credit cards and loans with your identity. If you don’t know these things, then try listening to people who do, for a change.
Yeah, Xenos? If you find anyone who can get a credit card on my name, don’t shake their hand (they’ll steal your fingers).
So suck me, you cunt. I’ve seen your “life expertise”. You’re just a dickless coward.
Well done, Stassa. It’s about time someone stood up to this coward. I am slightly peturbed to find DeviousDiva accomodating Xenos’s prejudices. His nation-hating vitriol is quite disturbing and I’m very surprised that his extreme views have been allowed on this blog when other extremists have been shown the door….
Ahh, another anonymous insect crawling out of the woodwork. Maybe you are known to us by another name? I think we can all guess who you are.
Stassa: go screw yourself, you silly transvestite. I have had it with fucked-up Greeks on the internet who think they know it all. Your life experience is much less than mine, so don’t presume to tell me anything,
I should also point out that the attitude of these pieces of excrement here showss why we cannot have civilised debate. They don’t even accept other people’s personal experiences of internet harassment as valid: oh no, they know better. We are all cowards, and they are so smart.
For fuck’s sake, just grow up.
His nation-hating vitriol is quite disturbing and I’m very surprised that his extreme views have been allowed on this blog when other extremists have been shown the door….
Diva finds his tune appealing is all. He slanders, smears, stereotypes, browbeats, belittles and attacks an entire nation out of pure hate thanks to his own insecurities and failures. This nation has made Diva uncomfortable in her stay and he verbalizes her inner feelings.
To Diva, I’m not sure why you have a hard time understanding what I write and this is the second time. However, the red herring is Xenos’ attempt to divert the main topic into “attacks” on his internet anonymity. No one wants to out him, though he has done a good job outing himself with his behaviour. Personally, I do not think it wise to divulge information on the net and I even told Stassa not to do it the first time she put her info in the comments.
Ahh, another anonymous insect crawling out of the woodwork.
The pontificating fool does not seem to have a grasp of irony, it seems. LOL
Say Xenos, how are the two snorefests you call “books” doing? Flying off the shelves, they are not, unfortunately. Is this one of those instances where departments are forced to use these fancy toilet papers as required texts? Is that how your “academia” works? Hahaha
The excrement here, Xenos, is you.
The word you are looking for is “she-male”.
Greek τραβέλι.
No, it isn’t. In fact it’s 50% of the births within those 20 years. It pains me physically that you dare invoke mathematics.
What criteria have you used to emphatically determine that 1M people is “not” too much? You stated 1M is half the births in that time, which makes the total number 2M, give or take. Are the 2M replacement, above replacement or below replacement? That should be a start of our analysis. Then, the other 1M migrants, do they also have children? Will they produce more children? Will these numbers be easily adsorbed, meaning will there be work for them? God knows, there are enough bouzouki players, as is, in Greece.
The criteria for immigration should be:
1) Do we need them?
2) Do we want them?
3) Are they compatible?
4) Are they assimilable?
5) Will they be a net positive?
6) Do we allow full citizenship privileges once here or are they temporary workers?
Those answers need to be answered by the citizens of any and all nations that look to accept immigrants. Not by mentally stunted idiots such as Xenos, who clearly does not view himself to be anything remotely Greek. So why is he giving “advice” on what the country should be doing?
Cyd: you are the most obnoxious and cretinous person who has appeared ever on this blog. Your venom and personal arrogance stink more than shit. You understand nothing and think you understand everything: this is almost the definition of an imbecile.
GO AND VENT YOUR EVIL ELSEWHERE.
DD: you know, I know, and everyone here knows, that my opinions are my own and have nothing to do with yours. The nasty little game that this asswipe Cyd is playing is to try to force you to censor me.
Freedom of speech is something that these Nazis conveniently forget about when it is others speaking, but whine and complain all the time if their racist nastiness is controlled.
My guiding principles on blog discussions are to convey reliable factual evidence (which few people actually possess), some of my personal judgements on the situation in various countries, and to conduct myself politely with others. This latter point has proven impossible to observe with certain people on this blog, who consider that bilious personal insults are quite OK. I have given up being polite to these vermin, and apologise to other readers of the blog.
No. The problem, dear Xenos, is that I know you all too well. Not personally, but have known other cow dung that you resemble and where you all seem to follow the same book for leftist morons. Your other problem is that I am quite educated and well read, as I have stated before. No matter how many times you state and wish the contrary, it does not make it so. You? You are a charlatan. A con man. A snake oil salesman and carpetbagger that brought his lies to an unsuspecting people. I see you for what you are and am smart enough to call your bullshit as it is. That’s what pisses you off because you do not get this sort of challenge in your “academic” circle. Just a bunch of head nodding from incompetent morons like yourself that could never make it in the real world and had to settle on the incestuous world of academic cock sucking as their only hope of advancement. More and more people are cluing in to your lies and are becoming more vocal. Not much longer will your lies go uncontested as they have in the past. Deal with it!
Freedom of speech applies to both sides, idiot. No one is stopping you from speaking and making an utter ass of yourself on a daily basis. I’m just calling you on it is the only difference. But then, YOU have stated to “shut up” and “go somewhere else”. Yeah, some champion for freedom of speech you are.
That 1 million plus is from immigrants.
the greek native birth rate is just about equal to the death rate.
actually i think if I am not mistaken more ethnic greeks in greece die then are born..yikes… but that will make Xenos, Panayote and Diva happy I am sure since they hate Greeks and think we are peasants
btw those pakistanis and albanians are not sophisticated aristocrats by and large either and if the tables were reversed I am sure they would not countenance another religion or race moving in to their lands…..i mention this because its like you make this whole migrant thing about innocent angels vs. mean Greeks.
A reduction in population need not be a tragedy and does not necessitate endless and free for all immigration.
I agree with Cyd on
The criteria for immigration should be:
1) Do we need them?
2) Do we want them?
3) Are they compatible?
4) Are they assimilable?
5) Will they be a net positive?
6) Do we allow full citizenship privileges once here or are they temporary workers?
Whats so wrong with that…AGAIn we are not talking about Asylum seekers…stick to the topic.
What would be the point in bringing in or allowing in documented or not all these foreigners if the amount we let in is greater than the economic need for workers in certain jobs?
What would be so wrong if we were selective of whom we let in?
In short What objection would Diva, Panayote or Xenos have to that criteria for migration (to the exclusion of asylum seekers–leave them out of the discussion)?????
I look forward to your thoughtful and fair response.
PD: I am prepared to debate with you, although we disagree on a lot, because you have good intentions and are open to serious discussion. Cyd is just a pousthmalaka, full of bigotry and shit.
On the demographic issue, Greeks have just about a replacement rate. But don’t forget all these ethnic Greeks that you have given citizenship to (minimum 150,000 since 1995) plus other homogeneis with other statuses.
On my personal opinion of Greeks? i used to adore Greece and Greeks, but became despairing of the cultural problems after moving here. YOu know what they are, so I will not repeat them. That is not to say that I also depair of the cultural problems in the UK — although they are not identical. Is this the same as saying that I hate Greeks? No, this is just the old Greek way of dealing with criticism.
Cyd’s ideas about immigration are just foolish. Immigration is not controllable, the parameters are not measurable (for example, we don’t actually know what the Greek labour market needs since the data are so poor), the concept of assimilation is value-loaded and not objective, the “compatible” concept is racist malakies…
So, what is my response? First, it is doubtful at this time that Greece needs a single extra unskilled worker. Spain has been paying immigrants to leave, because their labour market is a disaster too. however, when Greece actually did need immigrant workers, it refused to arrange it legally, and they all came illegally and were legalised years later, then many fell back into illegality.
So, at this point, there is a legal and moral obligation to accept all of the immigrants in Greece — or at least, those with residence of more than a few years. They are a mix of skills, but most Asians are unskilled and semi-skilled. They perform hard manual tasks that nobody else will do.
It is not possible to avoid discussing asylum-seekers, because Greece has fucked up its policy and everyone is given a Pink Card when they get to the front of the queue (by waiting or bribing). In this way, Greece created a temporary guestworker programme from asylum-seekers and irregular migrants, which was extremely foolish and not in conformity with the Geneva Convention, either.
I do not pretend to know what will happen to Greece over the next decade. In the past, Greece needed two sorts of immigrant workers: unskilled low-wage (Asians, some Albanians) and very high-skilled, high pay (Americans and Europeans). what the Greek economy really needs is more people with skills that are properly used: that also includes Greeks. This parameter is independent of migration, or possibly negatively correlated: it needs real action from the government, from employers, from society. If that happens, there may be a need for more workers. If it doesn’t, the Greek economy is doomed: you cannot survive on cheap tourism as the major economic activity.
So, forget immigration: the economy is the crucial matter. Sadly, I heard nothing intelligent from any of the political parties, so I expect no change and no improvement.
PD: I forgot to mention the issue of the second generation (born in Greece) and the in-between generations — the so-called 1.5 and 1.75 generations, who migrated as young children and were educated here. They are very important, because they have Greek cultural atributes, along with some others. They can bring new ideas, and dynamism to the Greek society and economy — but, they need to be given a proper status. Ideally, they should be Greek by being born and educated here; minimally, permanent residence permits.
There is an excellent Eleftherotypia article (in Greek) on the second generation in greece. The approximate number is 250,000 (of all ages) — which is a high proportion of total immigrants, Something else to think about…
http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=79560
So foolish that countries such as Japan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, India, China, to name just a few, that seem to follow Cyd’s “foolish” criteria for immigration and potential immigrants. Yeah, they’re stupid. Xenos, he’s the real “academic genius”. LOL
Also, according to the idiot, we have no way of quantifying the labour market in Greece, but god dammit, Idiot says we need MORE immigrants! How’s that for logic? HAHAHA Then we have this “moral right” to not send them home despite not knowing if we need them, though we allow tons in because morons have direct control of this issue.
Here’s a shocker for the Idiot, there are no legal or moral obligations for illegals. Barely any for legals unless the citizenry votes on it via referendum and after it is debated with cold hard facts and not emotional heart wrenching stories. And certainly not by some braindead twits with archaic and destructive Marxist ideologies that fancy themselves avant-garde in their thinking. Idiot’s ideas have been tried and have led to horrific disasters wherever they were implemented. Millions of death arose from the likes of the Idiot. This “global citizen” and rootless cosmopolitanism is a shiny new polish on the same turd. It ended in misery before and unfortunately, will do so again. Of anything, that is a certainty because one thing that never changes is human nature. Humans do not relinquish their homes and families. That is exactly what the Idiot is demanding.
All the wealth of this 1st world roots in bloodbath, genocide and exploitation of the 3rd world started 500 years ago. What would it be without gold, potatoes, tomatoes, coffee, indian corn, a.s.o. stolen from indian land or tea, pasta, gunpowder and pizza from asia starting the process of capitalism?
The decadent few (in comparism to the majority of the whole world and their impossibility to feed themselve) of this imperialous overpopulated 1st world is scared in their luxury and fantazising of crisis whilst still having enough money to bring their fat asses to useless jobs and gassing the whole planet, scared of sharing their stolen wealth. Why don’t they revolt against their banks? ‘Cuz these banks give them the credit for their cars, ha, ha and ‘cuz they are simply accomplices of imperialism. There are total illegal states like the U.S. of A. and Australia whose owners are called “natives” by brave p.c. europeans that won’t see the racism in this word only created to control and legalize their genocide. If stopping migration is the deal why not start there and send all these cardrivers back to europe or to mars (where they can gas a planet)?
HOMELAND SECURITY
FIGHTING TERRORISM SINCE 1492
Just to point out to anyone who doesn’t realise it, that every single thing in Cyd’s post above is false. It is the most ignorant collection of statements about immigration that I have ever seen, and I will not bother to respond other than to say that. It’s just complete bullshit along with insults directed at anyone with expert knowledge and some personal insults directed at me.
What a loser you are, Cyd.
Was Homeland Security’s rambling histrionic something known as a “manifesto”? As one who has read some of these 17N style proclamations in the newspaper (translated into English), I often wonder if people who write these things imbibe with alcohol or employ other forms of self-medication before embarking on their keyboards. At best, their writings are quite boring, and make for great kindling in my fireplace.
Oh, OK. Well, that settles it…I guess.