Press release from the Greek Helsinki Monitor
31 August 2009
Greece: UN recommendations on minorities, Roma, racist organizations and media, and asylum seekers
The cooperating NGOs Minority Rights Group-Greece (MRG-G) and Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) welcome the Concluding Observations on Greece of the United Nations’ Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) that were published on 28 August 2009. They cover in a satisfactory way a range of issues regarding minorities, Roma, racist organizations and media, and asylum seekers.
CERD has obviously taken into consideration the reports and the oral briefing by five NGOs: GHM, MRG-G, Human Rights Watch, the Western Thrace Minority University Graduates Association and the Federation of Western Thrace Turks in Europe. These recommendations are appended here, along with the 2001 recommendations for the sake of comparison. A comprehensive presentation of the concluding observations with background information and comments is available in a press release in Greek available at the webpage
:
. GHM and MRG-G have developed a special webpage with all the related material on the CERD review of Greece (with reports and statement submitted by the state to CERD, parallel reports submitted by the NGOs, etc.)
GHM and MRG-G would like to highlight that CERD has made two urgent recommendations on the issue of ill-treatment of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants, including unaccompanied children, on one hand, and of persons belonging to vulnerable groups, in particular the Roma, on the other (paragraphs 12 and 13). CERD has requested follow-up information on Greece’s implementation of the related recommendations within one year (paragraph 26).
CERD has also stressed the particular importance of its recommendations concerning the effective implementation of legal provisions aimed at eliminating racial discrimination and in particular those relating to prosecution and punishment of racially motivated crimes; and the propagation by certain organizations and media outlets of racist stereotypes and hate comments against persons belonging to different ethnic and racial groups (paragraphs 10, 11 and 18). In its next periodic report to be submitted in four years, Greece should provide detailed information on the implementation of these laws including the application by courts of anti-racism Law 927/79, and the punishment of racist organizations and media as well the ban of neo-Nazi groups (paragraph 27).
On minorities and Roma, CERD like all other independent bodies, disagreed with Greece’s position that there is only one minority, the Muslims of Thrace, and that the implementation of its programs on Roma have had substantial impact on them. Greece has been asked to adopt measures to ensure the effective enjoyment by persons belonging to every community or group of their right to freedom of association and of their cultural rights, including the use of mother languages and the right to identity; as well as to take targeted measures to eliminate discrimination based on national or ethnic origin. CERD also asked Greece to undertake an evaluation of the results of the “Integrated Action Program for the social integration of Greek Roma” in consultation with the respective communities, and adopt adequate measures to effectively improve the living conditions of the Roma.
COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
Seventy-fifth session
3 – 28 August 2009
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS SUBMITTED BY STATES PARTIES
UNDER ARTICLE 9 OF THE CONVENTION
Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination
GREECE
1. The Committee considered the combined sixteenth to nineteenth periodic reports of Greece, submitted in a single document (CERD/C/GRC/19), at its 1944th and 1945th meetings (CERD/C/SR.1944 and 1945), held on 10 and 11 August 2009. At its 1963rd meeting (CERD/C/SR.1963), held on 24 August 2009, it adopted the following concluding observations.
A. Introduction
2. The Committee welcomes the submission of the State party report, the replies to the list of issues, as well as the supplementary information provided orally by the delegation. The Committee found it encouraging that the delegation replied frankly and constructively to the questions and comments raised by Committee members. The Committee welcomes the high quality of the State party report, which is in line with the Committee’s guidelines.
B. Positive aspects
3. The Committee welcomes the adoption of Law 3304/2005 on the “Implementation of the principle of equal treatment regardless of race or national origin, religion or other beliefs, disability, age or sexual orientation” in 2005.
4. The Committee welcomes the amendment of para. 3 of Article 79 of the Criminal Code in 2008, which provides that the commission of an offence motivated by ethnic, racial or religious hatred constitutes an aggravating circumstance.
5. The Committee welcomes the establishment of the Committee for Equal Treatment and the new responsibilities assumed by the Greek Ombudsman for the promotion of the principle of equal treatment in the public sector.
6. The Committee welcomes the “Integrated Action Program for the social integration of Greek Roma” and the Law of 2005 for the integration of third-country nationals legally residing in the Hellenic territory, and acknowledges the importance of the special measures and other positive steps already taken.
7. The Committee welcomes the recent ratification by the State party of the optional protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, as well as the ratification of both optional protocols to the Convention on the rights of the Child.
C. Concerns and recommendations
8. The Committee takes note of the explanation by the State party of the reason why only Greek citizens belonging to the Muslim minority in Thrace, as determined by the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923, fall within the scope of the term “minority”, and are recognized as such.
The Committee, referring to its General Recommendation No. 8 (1990) concerning the interpretation and application of article 1, paragraphs 1 and 4 of the Convention, and recalling its General Recommendation No. 20 (1996) on article 5 of the Convention, calls upon the State party to ensure the non-discriminatory implementation of each of the rights and freedoms referred to in article 5 of the Convention for all groups within the scope of the Convention. The Committee recommends that the State party conduct research with a view to effectively assessing and evaluating the incidence of racial discrimination in the country, with particular focus on discrimination based on national or ethnic origin, and take targeted measures to eliminate such discrimination.
9. The Committee notes that the Muslim minority of Western Thrace is composed of Turkish, Pomak and Roma ethnic groups, and that the Government wishes to ensure their right to use their own languages.
The Committee asks the State party to include in its next report information on measures taken to protect the human rights of these groups and their right to identity.
10. The Committee is concerned that the State party is not effectively implementing legal provisions aimed at eliminating racial discrimination and in particular those relating to prosecution and punishment of racially motivated crimes.
The Committee calls upon the State party to ensure the effective implementation of all legal provisions aimed at eliminating racial discrimination and that racially motivated crimes are effectively prosecuted and punished. The Committee further requests the State party to provide in its next report updated information concerning the application by courts of criminal law provisions punishing acts of racial discrimination, such as those contained in Law 927/1979. Such information should include the number and nature of cases brought, convictions obtained and sentences imposed, and any restitution or other remedies provided to victims of such acts.
11. The Committee is concerned about reports on the propagation by certain organizations and media outlets of racist stereotypes and hate comments against persons belonging to different ethnic and racial groups.
The Committee recommends that the State party take effective measures to penalize organizations and media outlets that are guilty of such acts. It further recommends that the State party concretely ban Neo-Nazi groups from its territory and take more effective measures to promote tolerance towards persons of different ethnic origins.
12. The Committee is concerned about reported cases of ill-treatment of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants, including unaccompanied children.
The Committee recommends that the State party take more effective measures necessary to treat asylum seekers humanely and to reduce as much as possible the period of detention of asylum-seekers, in particular children.
13. The Committee notes with concern information on cases of ill-treatment and excessive use of force by Greek police against persons belonging to vulnerable groups, in particular the Roma.
With reference to General Recommendation No. 31 (2005) on the prevention of racial discrimination in the administration and functioning of the criminal justice system, the Committee encourages the State party to take further measures to combat the abuse of authority and to prevent the ill-treatment of people belonging to different racial and ethnic groups by the police, to ensure that such acts are effectively prosecuted and punished by the judicial authorities, and to integrate more members of the Roma community into the police.
14. Bearing in mind the intersectionality between ethnicity and religion, the Committee is concerned about information on certain specific difficulties encountered by Muslims belonging to different ethnic groups to practice their religion.
The Committee recalls the State party’s obligation to ensure that all persons enjoy their right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, without any discrimination based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin, in accordance with Article 5 (d) of the Convention.
15. The Committee is concerned about the obstacles encountered by some ethnic groups in exercising the freedom of association, and in this regard takes note of information on the forced dissolution and refusal to register some associations including words such as “minority”, “Turkish” or “Macedonian”, as well as of the explanation for such refusal.
The Committee recommends that the State party adopt measures to ensure the effective enjoyment by persons belonging to every community or group of their right to freedom of association and of their cultural rights, including the use of mother languages.
16. While acknowledging the important special measures already adopted for the social integration of the Roma, the Committee is concerned about obstacles encountered by Roma persons with regard to access to work, housing, health care and education.
The Committee recommends that the State party undertake an evaluation of the results of the “Integrated Action Program for the social integration of Greek Roma” in consultation with the respective communities, and adopt adequate measures to effectively improve the living conditions of the Roma, in accordance with article 5 of the Convention and General Recommendation No. 27 (2000) on discrimination against the Roma.
17. The Committee is concerned about the alleged limited access to quality minority education for the Turkish speaking minority in Western Thrace.
The Committee recommends that the State party improve the quality of education for the vulnerable ethnic groups and the Muslim minority, including through the training of teachers belonging to these groups, to ensure that there is a sufficient number of secondary schools, and to create pre-schools that teach in the mother tongue of their students.
18. The Committee notes the sharing of competence between the Office of the Ombudsman, the Committee for Equal Treatment and the Labour Inspectorate (para. 253 of the State party report).
As the Office of the Ombudsman is the only independent body, the Committee recommends that the State party consider giving it overall powers to receive complaints of racial discrimination, while cooperating with the other bodies when examining them.
19. Bearing in mind the indivisibility of all human rights, the Committee encourages the State party to consider ratifying those international human rights treaties which it has not yet ratified, in particular treaties the provisions of which have a direct bearing on the subject of racial discrimination, such as the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families (1990).
20. The Committee recommends that the State party take into account the Durban Declaration and Programme of Action, adopted in September 2001 by the World Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, as well as the Outcome Document of the Durban Review Conference, held in Geneva in April 2009, when implementing the Convention in its domestic legal order. The Committee requests that the State party include in its next periodic report specific information on action plans and other measures taken to implement the Durban Declaration and Programme of Action at the national level.
21. The Committee recommends that the State party continue consulting and expanding its dialogue with organizations of civil society working in the area of human rights protection, in particular in combating racial discrimination, in connection with the preparation of the next periodic report.
22. The Committee encourages the State party to consider making the optional declaration provided for in article 14 of the Convention.
23. The Committee recommends that the State party ratify the amendments to article 8, paragraph 6, of the Convention, adopted on 15 January 1992 at the fourteenth meeting of States parties to the Convention and endorsed by the General Assembly in its resolution 47/111 of 16 December 1992. In this connection, the Committee cites General Assembly resolution 61/148, in which it strongly urged States parties to accelerate their domestic ratification procedures with regard to the amendment and to notify the Secretary-General expeditiously in writing of their agreement to the amendment.
24. The Committee recommends that the State party’s reports be made readily available and accessible to the public at the time of their submission, and that the observations of the Committee with respect to these reports be similarly publicized in the official and other commonly used languages, as appropriate.
25. Noting that the State Party submitted its Core Document in 2002, the Committee encourages the State Party to submit an updated version in accordance with the harmonized guidelines on reporting under the international human rights treaties, in particular those on the common core document, as adopted by the fifth inter-Committee meeting of the human rights treaty bodies held in June 2006 (HRI/GEN/2/Rev.4).
26. In accordance with article 9, paragraph 1, of the Convention and rule 65 of its amended rules of procedure, the Committee requests the State party to provide information, within one year of the adoption of the present conclusions, on its follow-up to the recommendations contained in paragraphs 12 and 13 above.
27. The Committee also wishes to draw the attention of the State party to the particular importance of recommendations 10, 11 and 18 and requests that the State party provide detailed information in its next periodic report on concrete measures taken to implement these recommendations.
28. The Committee recommends that the State party submit its combined twentieth and twenty-first periodic reports in a single document, due on 18 July 2013, taking into account the guidelines for the CERD-specific document adopted by the Committee during its seventy-first session (CERD/C/2007/1), and that it address all points raised in the present concluding observations.
Concluding Observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination : Greece. 22/03/2001. CERD/C/58/Misc.24/Rev.3. (Concluding Observations/Comments)
COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION
OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
Fifty-eighth session
6-23 March 2001
Concluding Observations of the Committee on the Elimination
of Racial Discrimination
Greece
1. The Committee considered the twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth periodic reports of Greece, submitted as one document (CERD/C/363/Add.4), at its 1455th and 1456th meetings (CERD/C/SR/1455 and CERD/C/SR/1456), held on 16 March and 19 March 2001 respectively. At its 1462nd meeting, held on 22 March 2001, it adopted the following concluding observations.
A. Introduction
2. The Committee welcomes the report submitted by the State party, and expresses its appreciation for the additional written information provided in February 2001, and the oral information provided by the delegation. It particularly appreciates the opportunity to resume a positive and constructive dialogue with the State party.
3. The Committee notes the valuable information contained in the report, prepared in accordance with the Committee’s guidelines for the form and content of periodic reports, and welcomes the fact that the report addresses a number of the concerns and recommendations of the Committee’s concluding observations on the eighth, ninth, tenth and eleventh periodic reports (CERD/C/210/Add.1).
B. Positive aspects
4. The Committee is encouraged by the self-critical approach of the State party’s report, and by the commitment of the State party to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.
5. The Committee notes that since the submission of its last report the State party has ratified a range of international human rights instruments, and has signed – although not yet ratified – the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.
6. The Committee welcomes the information provided in the report and by the delegation concerning the extent to which courts and other tribunals and administrative authorities give direct effect to the provisions of international human rights instruments in their decisions, and the attention given by courts to the case law of international judicial or quasi-judicial bodies when interpreting human rights instruments.
7. The Committee welcomes the establishment of national machinery with responsibility for overseeing the implementation of human rights, and notes in particular the diverse and pluralistic structure of the national commission on human rights established by Law 2667/1998. The Committee also notes the important role of the National Radio and Television Council, the Code of Journalistic ethics, and the draft Code of ethics for Information and Other Journalistic and Political Programmes in preventing racial discrimination and racist and xenophobic behaviour and stereotyping in the mass media.
8. The Committee welcomes the measures taken by the State party to date aimed at promoting effective equality among individuals, with particular attention to Roma people, migrant workers, refugees and asylum seekers, and the minority populations in Western Thrace.
9. The Committee notes the information provided by the State party according to which members of minority groups participate in the political life of the country at the national and municipal levels.
10. Consistent with the State party’s expressed desire to integrate – rather than assimilate – minority groups into the social, economic and cultural life of the country, in a manner aimed at preserving their diverse cultures and identities, the Committee welcomes the information provided by the State party concerning the implementation of educational programmes aimed at the teaching of the Greek language to students with a different mother tongue, and the training of teachers in the teaching of Greek as a second language.
11. The Committee welcomes the information provided by the State party on the extent to which it has implemented General Recommendation XIII (42) to date, concerning training of law enforcement officials in the protection of human rights.
C. Concerns and recommendations
12. While noting that the report of the State party refers to the “Muslim minority of Western Thrace”, and within this to Turkish, Pomak and Roma groups, and not to other ethnic groups in the country, the Committee draws the attention of the State party to its General Recommendations VIII (38) on the right of each person to self-identification and XXIV (55) concerning article 1 of the Convention in this regard.
13. The Committee encourages the State party to build upon its education programs at all levels in order to counter negative stereotypes and promote the objectives of the Convention. The Committee recommends that the State party take into account the Committee’s General Recommendation XXVII (57) concerning Roma in further legal and policy initiatives.
14. The Committee encourages the State party to pursue further its dialogues with representatives of the Roma, Pomak, Albanian and other minority populations, with a view to expanding as necessary the available range of multi-lingual educational programs and policies.
15. Recalling the repeal in 1998 of Article 19 of the Citizenship Code, and mindful of the clear incompatibility of this repealed law with the Convention, the Committee recommends that the State party explore and implement appropriate remedies, including the possibility of reinstatement of citizenship, for the benefit of persons deprived of their citizenship under Article 19 in the past.
16. The Committee recommends that the next periodic report provide information on the demographic composition of the population.
17. The Committee recommends the State party to include in its next periodic report statistics on jurisprudence of cases where the relevant provisions of the Civil and Penal Code have found application.
18. The Committee recommends that the State party take further measures to increase the awareness of the principles of the Convention by law enforcement officials.
19. The Committee recommends that the Convention, the State party’s report and these concluding observations be widely disseminated by the State party, including among minority populations.
20. The Committee welcomes the stated intention of the State party to make a declaration as soon as possible under Article 14 of the Convention, and encourages it to take steps in that regard.
21. The Committee recommends that the State party should ratify the amendments to article 8, paragraph 6, of the Convention which were adopted on 15 January 1992, at the 14th meeting of States parties to the Convention.
22. The Committee recommends that the State party submit its sixteenth periodic report jointly with its seventeenth periodic report due on 18 July 2003 and that it address the points raised in the present observations.
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Albanian minority population? Come again?
Well, the phrasing there is rather odd: it is as if it should Turkish minority population at that point (along with Roma and Pomaks). Of course, there could be a subtle reference to the Cham — whose property was confiscated by the Greek state when most of them fled after human rights atrocities committed against them in 1944. Even this would be odd, as they are hardly present in Greece. It might refer to Arvanites, who consider themselves Hellenic with a different cultural background; or it could refer to Albanian migrants.
Whichever it might be, it is very poorly expressed, I agree. And completely pointless, as a result.
Do note that the reference is in the 2001 text not this year’s
Having been there I know they meant Arvanites and not Chams – but this is was indeed but wording especially as they did not mention Vlachs/Aromanians – another LINGUISTIC minority.
Thanks for the clarification, Panayote. And of course, it is an old text of 2001. I cannot help feeling that it would anyway be better to call the linguistic minority Arvanites rather than Albanian, for a number of reasons.
Oh, but there were references to the issues of the “Albanian” minority this year round as well. And the US representative at the OSCE also has been making noise about them. I had a suspicion that they meant Arvanites but thanks to GHM’s representative I now know for sure that they are trying to include our families in their dirty games. As if we have not had the politicians (including a dictator of our own) in place to demand things in a country our forefathers were instrumental in building. Hanna moun the lot of you.
From this years preliminary report:
Page 2:
It gets more specific in Page 7:
Despite the common understanding in a European context of ethnic groups to usually refer to indigenous populations and the reference to 1923 (instead of issues of immigration) the Greek delegation chose to interpret this question as a question about Albanian immigrants (and replied accordingly). Of course the whole question stunk from afar. But to prove this point further, in Page 11 another question of a UN expert:
As any expert worth their salary would know the number of Albanian immigrants that have been naturalized in Greece is miniscule (up until a few years ago including Vorioepirotes who were treated as 2nd class homogenis for political reasons). Essentially a few athletes (like Sava Likka) and people with connections – usually pretending to be of Greek origins. Therefore unless the question was aimed for the statistical non-entities it was a targeted question trying to establish Arvanites as an Albanian minority in need of an Albanian education. Where did they get such an idea? Can’t they wait at least for GAP to massively naturalize Albanians in a few weeks before they can lay a claim to an Albanian minority in need of minority rights?
As if our families asked for the UN to become our champions – even funnier considering that begrudgingly even GHM/MRG that the UN supposedly relies on for information has on several occasions in its reports and articles admitted to the fact that Arvanites do not seem themselves as Albanians (even though the suggestion is that they are refusing their ethnic kin)!
In any case they chose the wrong material to construct the third minority to pressure Greece with (I guess the existing two spearheads plus the Roma were not enough). Even more so than the Vlachs (where rare though they may be you still find modern day Alkiviadi Diamanti-ses ready to follow in their Pindus legionary grandfather footsteps – may their souls rot in hell) our people have shown how to deal with the enemies of Romiosini. Keep thinking you can use us as your pawns. Sarkukides e Sarkukides.
Oath Taken: the problem is fundamentally with the Greek state and its history of propaganda and misinformation. The self-identification of minority groups is a long-established principle in the UN, so what the Arvanites and others actually think should be central. Of all potential minority groups in Greece, only the Cham and Turkish have chosen (in part) to lay claim to a distinct identity that has confronted the Hellenic nationalist trend.
That UN “experts” are confused by the situation in Greece is hardly surprising: how many countries award strange statuses such as homogeneis cards? How many countries cannot actually tell you how many people (and what their former citizenships were) they have naturalised? How many countries award passports without conferring formal nationality? The mess is created by the Greek state, and you cannot expect the rest of the world to grasp the extent of the stupidity in these matters.
FREEDOM TO THE SARAKATSANOI PEOPLE!!! TEACH THE SARAKATSANEKI LANGUAGE AT SCHOOLS!!! HUMAN RIGHTS FOR THE SARAKATSANEKI MINORITY!!!! in Bulgaria
I had started writing a very detailed response to Xenos but a stupid random keyboard stroke on my crowded laptop took firefox back a page and lo-and-behold everything was lost. The fact that this is the n-th time this has happened over the last two years or so and I still have not learnt to first edit everything outside of the text box in the browser can only be interpreted as a bad omen for my mental clarity when (if) I reach an old age. In any case Xenos, you’re off the mark as to the “confusion” of the UN experts, but quite interestingly you touch upon three Greek peculiarities that have not been discussed in DD’s blog before. When I get the time I may comment some more on it as I know people of the first and last categories and I can pretty much guess the reason for secrecy of the 2nd.
Meanwhile:
a) Stassa the Karakatsani live in FYRoM as well. But don’t shout too loudly or they could find themselves being taught Aromanian as the confusion between Karakatsani and Vlachs (despite the two-way not-so-amicable feelings between the two groups) is unfortunately widespread not only in Greece (where even non-Karakatsani, non-Vlach pastoralists are labelled collectively as Vlachi) but elsewhere in the Balkans. In any case I think the ones among them that have not become urbanized (and usually assimilated) care far more about being able to cross the borders with their sheep than schools etc.
b) It appears from the ECRI report released today that the plans for making a minority out of our families have been shelved for 2009 at least. Not a word about us.
c) Speaking of the ECRI report how come they did not have anything more recent than 2005 from you Xenos? I would have expected the “meat” with the middle eastern refugees to have been over the last few years. PD had less citations than I expected, maybe that’s why the report was less severe than last time – in my eyes at least. Did they drop the demand that Greece stops giving preferential treatment to homogenis or did I miss something?
That should have been “have not learned” above – my English is abandoning me as well…
Oath: I don’t know the actual reason for the confusion of the UN experts, but was commenting on possible reasons. If you know more, then you should say. You should also comment on the disgraceful way that various ethnic Greeks have been treated by the Greek state over the decades (not to mention the treatment of minority Greek citizens whose citizenship was removed). These are fundamental issues of human rights, and all Greeks and Europeans should know about them. (Actually, I have met only one person in the third category, and she was too ashamed to discuss anything.)
Wrt ECRI, I gave evidence once only, in a formal capacity (that I no longer possess) within an EU agency. Regrettably, much of Europe has the same obsession with bureaucratic formalism as Greece has…
What is the problem with ECRI? they released an excellent report today
see http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3519
I have no problem with ECRI: my comment related to how formal structures predominate in Europe. The report is generally very good — excellent in the area of discrimination, very good in terms of migrants, and acceptable in reference to the asylum process. (The latter is a little out of date, of course.)
The Greek state responses are pathetic and pedantic, and in places simply lies — such as “anti-semitism is rare in Greece”, and “we do not detain asylum-seekers”. The latter is of course a semantic construction, meaning that they detain irregular migrants who are “always permitted to apply for asylum” but obviously, for some strange reason, prefer to be imprisoned in terrible conditions than to apply for asylum. I note that they have nothing to say about their illegal treatment of unaccompanied minors, and the lack of even recording their arrival in asylum data.
Well you have not commented on the report’s strongest points which relate to minorities (including the return of ethnic Macedonian political refugees)and racist speech with a point on why has not Karatzaferis been prosecuted for all the racist things he said and that even the Supreme Court Prosecutor has made a racial profiling statement, while other judicial officials have made racist and antisemitic ones.
We have made a selection of the important points from the Greek version at http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3517
I agree, Panayote. I included minorities and racist speech under the general heading of discrimination, but maybe that is misleading. Your summary indeed identifies the strongest points of the report, and makes easier reading for those who don’t wish to read the full report.
Xenos do you really want me to spend all day proving that I know my country’s misdeeds?
Given my propensity for full explanations as opposed to one-sentence aphorisms that takes time and I have other more pressing needs but I’ll try and humor you soon.
PD (not Pd) from my perspective the report was (given the circumstances) not as negative for Greece as the 2004 one. The recommendations wrt. national minorities (as they see themselves) are essentially identical (and in the case for the suggestion that a dialogue should be entered with Pavle Filipov really a piece of comic relief). The only really new observations that I noticed – I have to admit I mainly check the ones related to the Macedonian issue and minority issues in general – were:
a) The reference to the ECHR decisions and the stupid way they have been non-enforced. (Such a reference was entirely expected)
b) The reference to the difficulty in changing (sur)names which is one of the stupidest things (of the very many stupid actions) the Greek authorities appear to have done. While publicly there is only one extra case (a total of 3 that I know of) since 2004, it was not put on the table by the usual suspects (your organizations, MHRMI and the rest of the diaspora gang, Vinozhito/HMC itself etc.) until this year.
c) The reference to the Article 20/Article 17 cases of stripping of citizenship. The reference is so vague (despite very specific complaints by Vinozhito) and so unclear that most readers not knowledgeable in the Article 20/17 issue will not even understand what the whole fuss is about. (BTW PD please let your Vinozhito buddies know that it’s Article 20 now and they should stop making fools of themselves by quoting a statute that is no longer current). Again this item was absent from the 2004 report even though it was a problem back then as well.
The surprising (as opposed to expected) positive for Greece new items in this year’s report are:
a) The clarification that the adjective (and noun) Macedonian has a different meaning to a very large number of Greek citizens (and by extension to Greek colloquial use)
b) The reference to issues faced by Pomaks and Roma in Thrace stemming from the Turkish side of the issue and the fact that minority activists (I will assume PD your former collaborator A. Dede was one of them) denied any such issues. While nationalist circles in Greece (adopting the “enemy of my enemy” mentality) have tried to overstate the significance of a separate Pomak identity in Thrace, it does exist and it is faced with extreme hostility by the same people crying “discrimination” at every opportunity when it comes to the Turks of the minority. I did not see GHM/MRG take a clear and strong stance on this issue but I may have missed the press release (though I do visit your site at least once a week if not more).
c) The removal of the recommendation to remove references in statutes to people of Greek genus (translated incorrectly – and unfortunately also adopted by the latest Greek government response equally erroneously – as “ethnic Greek”/”of Greek origin”).
Finally the differences between the wording related to ethnic, ethnicity etc. in the Greek and English versions of the text only serve to underscore the semantic difficulties that this term, that until recently was not even in the active Greek vocabulary, poses when it comes to Greek speakers that tend to confuse it with the term “national”/”ethnikos”. The 2004 report makes a clear reference to this issue BTW. Of course this type of confusion has been clearly evident in the Vinozhito manifesto of 1996 where the English version makes the mind-boggling statement that Vinozhito represents a “national Macedonian minority” outside Greece and an “ethnic Macedonian minority” inside Greece (you’d expect much better from people that claim to have read Gellner, Anderson and the like!) and in the Greek version one read “ethniki” (ie. national) for both.
See Xenos – I just wasted my time in going to detail… I have to catch up to some actual research now.
Ah – more mistakes – of course I meant to say:
Anyone who pretends to follow regularly GHM’s work and so comment son its position on an issue discussed at the UN would know that in http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3500 it is written:
“GHM and MRG-G would like to request that CERD urges Greece to adapt its minorities’ policy to ICERD and other international treaties. All Greek citizens should be free from any pressure (including from other minorities) to choose to belong or not to belong to an ethnic minority, be it Macedonian, Pomak, Turkish, Roma, Aromanian, or Arvanite and to form associations bearing those names. According to demand, all minority languages (and not just Turkish) should be taught at schools. Minority members should not be forced to attend minority schools in a different (Turkish) language than theirs. Former Greek citizens who were stripped of their citizenship on the basis of discriminatory legislation or emergency measures after the Second World War should be able to have it promptly restored upon request and should be allowed to move back to Greece if they so wish. Greece has successfully absorbed over one million migrants since 1990 and can certainly equally successfully absorb a few tens of thousands of former citizens who may want to return.”
I do not pretend to follow your work regularly PD, I waste my time doing it. DD can share with you my IP addresses and you can check them against your web logs to see if I’m lying. That said when I quickly went through the 2009 CERD report (I was looking for new information such as that about the stripping of citizenship from Jews doing Aliyah in the 1940s and 1950s) I did not pay enough attention to the part about “pressure from other minorities” which is the only _segment_ of a sentence alluding to another agent to blame beyond Greek government policy (which chooses only Turkish for minority schools). So as I allowed as a possibility (“but I may have missed the press release”) you have taken a stance – I hope that in some other press release or report you are actually explicit in explaining who are these minorities pressuring other minorities. ECRI certainly seems to be utterly split between Greek government and Turkish minority claims and a clear position from GHM/MRG (even if it meant ruffling some feathers of the people you work with among the Turks of W. Thrace) would have allowed them to clear up the issue.
Beyond that (and given that the actual interpretation of “not Greek by genus” -allogenis- has been provided by the Council of the State, published in KEMO publications and by the Ios team, and clearly refers to national consciousness and not ethnicity or simply descent from Greeks) I remain in wonder at the continued misrepresentation of “Greek by genus” as “ethnic Greek”, both in your CERD report and elsewhere as well as “of Greek origin” (whatever the non-legal concept “ethnic origin” means) in the Greek government response. Then again if the government can not abide by the interpretations of its own Courts, why should I expect you to do so?
Finally, since the aforementioned paragraph brings this issue up, how do you define demand? Your Vinozhito collaborators have been making noise about the introduction of the teaching of the official language of FYRoM (not of their local dialects) as a _mandatory_ subjects in minority areas (which they are supposed to define?) If we are to use the votes for Vinozhito as a map to the areas where the demand would arise that would mean more schools in Athens than in Katerini (where there were no Slavic speaking settlements to begin with even before 1912). Is this their vision or are we talking more of the footprint of “Aegean Macedonia”?
Finally I’m curious to hear of the reception in the UMD Canada Gala banquet on October 24 this year (where apparently you’ve been invited to talk) that a restatement of section (5) of your 1999 compliance report for the CoE’s FCPNA or of the historical background of Macedonian nationalism (as presented in the CEDIME-SE report on the Macedonians of Bulgaria) will meet with.
For someone who chooses to pry into both Panayote’s and my professional lives, it is obvious that you have some sort of professional interest in this topic. It is also obvious that you choose to insult people with your anonymous comments here (unless Panayote knows who you are).
For my part, I will say that the judgement of the Greek courts on ethnicity and national consciousness are the biggest load of crap in legal history, and cannot be taken seriously. Why should we do so?
I should also point out to you that there is no such country as fYRoM: this is a name unilaterally invented by Greeks and accepted by no other country of the world. Some 120 countries now accept the name Republic of Macedonia (or even Macedonia) and it’s about time that Greeks got some grip on reality. This whole idea that Greece owns the name Macedonia is so ridiculous, that only Greeks believe it. Essentially, a country whose history has been faked is complaining that another country’s history is faked. Unbelievable…
Professional interest? What exactly are you accusing me of Xenos? That I work for some nefarious security organization? In fact my employer does sound like a spy organization only that particular organization is Turkish which doesn’t make much sense now, does it? I think I should ask PD’s e-lawyer whether this accusation constitutes libel.
I did not need to “pry” into your professional life (which you boast about all the time here so in that sense you’ve been inviting inspection) to deduce who you are since you write in exactly the same style that you used to write when you used your name on this blog. As for PD’s invitation to the UMD Gala it was announced by Jim Daikos of UMD on maknews.com not too long ago. No need to “pry” to find out about it either.
BTW when I do intend to insult I do it directly, as would be the case if I called you a skardat mout, from an anonymous OT to an anonymous Xenos in the eyes of any reader. Furthermore whether one is insulting is unrelated to being anonymous. You were insulting to Greeks on DD’s blog before you became Xenos as well as after. In any case I doubt PD knows who I am though it would not be that difficult for him to find out with DD’s help if he chose to do so, I have not been hiding my tracks. Being the head of a prominent NGO PD is a public person (unlike me) – hence criticism of his political stance by members of the public is to be expected.
Still where exactly in the 4 paragraphs of the previous response did I actually insult PD? Admittedly I am confrontational but insulting? Did I call him names? Call him a scoundrel or anything of that sort? I have noted elsewhere that he has always sided with people (like Slavko Mangovski, Bill Nicholov and Lubi Uzunovski) which I consider enemies of Greeks but quite obviously he thinks otherwise about them so stating this fact (again a matter of public record) should not be insulting to him.
As for your two other points:
a) At issue is the legal definition of “not Greek by genus”. Years ago I used to think it did not even exist but in fact it does. You can call it a joke – I won’t argue with you – but it is what it is and it certainly makes the term different from referring to a non-ethnic Greek. To claim otherwise is simply wrong – whether you are PD or the greek government representative.
b) ALL national histories are faked (it is a necessary evil of ethnogenesis, be it in the context of a traditional nation-state or even a state such as the USA). So to point it out for Greece alone is a joke onto itself. The country north of Florina has been accepted at the UN provisionally as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia so it obviously also has that name for the time being – you are free to choose not to use it but δερβέναγα στ’ αρχίδια μου δε σ’ έβαλε κανένας. BTW that was an intentional insult in case I need to point out the difference to my demeanour so far. Feel free to get all pompously indignant with the damned peasants. ;->
Responding to only one point: there is a Security Council Resolution of 1993 stating that the provisional name is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia — for use within the UN itself (not for any other purpose). This was the result of Greece managing to persuade the USA and other Council members that there were serious problems with that country. Such a position has now been abandoned by the USA and others; globally, only those countries with a direct interest in the Greek position (such as Cyprus) still support it. The EU itself has been taken hostage by the Greek nonsense (as it has also over the accession of Cyprus) and is completely sick and tired of Greece and its Balkan mentality.
The acronym you used has no legitimacy, from anywhere, and is highly offensive. How would you like Greece to be called tFORoY ? [the Former Ottoman Region of Yunanistan]. This would be the equivalent of what Greece has tried to do to Macedonia; and yes, there are direct parallels.
The irony of course is that Greeks are the biggest investors in Macedonia — as always, money takes priority over nationalistic propaganda.
Xenos,
you are off base defending FYROM as Macedonia what does that make our province then?
Tito named that region Macedonia, and only 10% of ancient Macedonia terriroty is in that republic.
If they kept to the honest truth like on of their former prime ministers stated..they have no connection to the ancient macedonians.
Personally I do not oppose them calling themselves Slav-Macedonians or something with some qualification.
Because they are monopolizing a name associated with Greece and re-writing history…saying nonsense that Greeks did a genocide against “Macedonians” using Napalm (before it was even invented) and so on.
Anyway my point is more that these slavic people want to monopolize the name macedonia(n). to mean themselves and create a fictious history that Greeks stole aegean macedonia for them that they are the heirs of alexander the great ’s civilization etc.
Essentially, a country whose history has been faked is complaining that another country’s history is faked. Unbelievable…
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Sort of like how most Jews have no or very little Semitic blood but are by and large descended from Khazars yet claim to be Gods chosen/favorite people (even though for the most part they reject his chosen messiah, and most part are atheist/secularist/agnostics, which to me is preferable to the religious ones who think that the rest of non jewish humanity are inferior……<—a Jewish friend in the States told me this is the attitude they learned in jewish school and which is why he views Judaism as a racist religion… and this attitude is corroborated by many humanistic Jews…..like Israel Shahak and Norman Finkelstei….n..so do not even deny that orthodox Talmudic belief is anti-humanistic and very misanthropic..at least towards non-jews and jews who dont follow the rabbis..i.e, secularist or jewish christians).
Our history is fake…did you do DNA tests to prove your thesis.
You, Panayote and Diva are NWO propagandist (I will give you all 3 the benefit of the doubt that you really believe that you are promoting human rights)…but in the name of human rights (something good) NWO propaganda promotes its own globalist agenda. Read George Orwells 1984 and Animal Farm.
Which is To have world government and control these NWO Rothschilds Schiff Warburgs etc Inc. Banksters have to subvert national consciousness in all nations esp. european ones.
Impose there debt currency supranationally subverting national control over a public utility (i.e, money, credit)…. subvert religious belief….. and of course there other goal is to destroy most of the worlds population…..they are not racist on that issue at least because they want most people dead regardless of race, religion , etc. think aids in africa and the new swine flu hoax scare to get everyone to take deadly mercury laced vaccine and get GBS syndrome etc.
We need a one world government, currency, religion and centralized authoritarian control from remote centers.
Or else how are we going to have human rights and justice in the world?
every western country needs to accept unlimited immigration
(your racist if you don’t, don’t you know?)
if every country in each european country has its base population diluted they will be like states like in the USA not ethnic based states or ethnic homelands any more.
there is no such thing as ethnicity (denying that modern Greeks have connection to ancient Greeks…for example…no i do not think that there has been absolutely no admixture at all but you go to another unfounded extreme.. for the most part there is a strong connection to the ancient Greeks and Romans and … this will really get your gord and offend you Mr. Xenos considering you are a British Jew…..as i think that most southern european people and ironically other mediterranean people like “arab” Palestinians have heavily admixed with the ancient Jews who started Christianity..at one point 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was Jewish either by “blood” or conversion…and later most of those were subsumed into chrisitanity..so we are also the true Jews..at least partly so…and more than your typical blond or red haired blue eyed pale skin descendents of mostly Khazar with minor semitic admixture self identified jews of today.
lets promote abortion and perversion (anything that promotes disease and population destruction)..No i do not think Gays should be persecuted or denied housing and jobs but neither should it be promoted. Fact is Gays suffer from greater levels of diseases than the average population even before AIDS/HIV took off. So some people can not help themselves to be this way but then they should be encouraged to be monogamous or chaste.
anything that is pro-death, that atomizes society is what NWO is all about..because then government takes more control..esp. supernational governments.
Belief in thought, speech and “hate” crime laws and tribunals etc. Disagree with my desire to bring in 500,000 fill in the blank ethnic group so that I can cheapen labor even more then I will call you a racist and put you in prison..voila..its actually quite ingenious but evil method of controlling discourse on labor issues and economy.
Disagree with me wanting to teach your children about anal sex and fisting and heather has two mommies..that mommies and daddies are interchangeable women and men dont matter..its all the same and equal and healthy…so I can promote chaos, confusion and disease to your children then your a hater..go to jail..do not pass go.. do not collect $200.
You Diva and Panayote may truly believe you are for human rights but inadvertenly are serving an agenda of death and destruction..to replace or re-image national identity into some multicultural hodge podge where loyalty will be to Brussels and then the UN rather than locally or to ones own ethnic group.
If the Muslims in thrace want to say they are Turkish that is fine it is not fine for them to throw bombs at the ataturk museuam in thessaloniki and blame greeks in order to help turkey organize outrage and pogroms against the Greeks there.
Now a member of minority in one country in that case in 1955 was used as a vehicle to persecute another minority in the neighboring country.
I know by international law regardless of what Turkey did in terms of keeping its end of the bargain vis-a-vis protecting the rights of Greeks in Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos..Greece still has to treat her minorities equally..but its understandable considering the history of treachery..i.e, 1955 and spies being caught that this particular minority would be distrusted by most of the majority population.
You have no understanding of how much suffering Turks caused for us Greeks esp those of Asia Minor heritage.
Just imagine Whites in South Africa or British in Zimbabwe are being wrongfully punished and persecuted..but why does no one cares..because of the precdding abuses of the past.
So same thing. Its inevitable and human nature for people to be wary/distrustful of a minority associated with a traditional enemy (or former colonial overlord) and one who is still acting like an enemy today even though Greece and Turkey are both members of Nato.
Turkey could have 10 more super deadly earthquakes and Greece could help her everytime but her extreme nationalist will always hate us and are in control and want war.
Its like being shocked and surprised if some Israelis esp. descendants of persecuted German Jews do not exactly love love Germans.. Have you no understanding or gnosis about this?
Nobody blames them for feeling this way.
Personally I know there are decent people in all groups..but practically speaking its best to keep different races, cultures and religions apart if possible because this causes friction and societal discord as different cultures have different values and ways of communicating and being understood. Thats the fact.
Most traditional muslims view the way western women dress as too revealing and even whorish and think its fine to treat them that way.. thus most rapes in countries like france and sweden are inordinately and disproportionately a muslim on native phenomena.
on the other hand I understand there are historic minorities and their rights should be respected..but why create new ones..i.e, mass immigration..only reason to do so is to divide society and allow more authoritarian and third party control.
Different cultures also can rub each other the wrong way because of cultural differences and misunderstandins. Thats why its best to have one common culture with respect for minority rights.
Having said all this I think the Turks have shown themselves smarter then the Greeks by distancing themselves from the goal of membership in 666 EU-SSR with their debt based usury money called the Euro.
If they are smart they will keep their national sovereignty and keep the Turkish Lira.
Damn PD, you’re an idiot.
I am not defending Macedonian nationalist propaganda — just pointing out that the Greek position is untenable. Considering that in 1870 the official Greek position was that “there is no such thing as an Albanian” therefore there could not be a country called Albania, I don’t think anyone is interested in what Greeks think of other regional identities. The historical fact is that 100 years ago only a minority of the occupants of what is now Greek Macedonia were Greeks. Read Mazower, for an accurate account of identity in the region: “We are not Turks, we are Christians”. Are you Greeks or Bulgarians? “Neither: we are Macedonians”. End of discussion.
I don’t believe that the rambling tirade above was actually posted by PD, unless he was on some strong medication. You should check it, DD.
When the UN or the Council of Europe make recommendations on Greece, or the ECtHR issues judgments against Greece, any discussion unrelated to the operative parts or the analysis of these texts is an indication that people have no arguments to make a critical evaluation of these judgments or recommendations and thus start calling names.
In any case until DD makes a new post red the comprehensive ECRI report released on Tuesday and have a nice weekend: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/moni.....31-ENG.pdf
After the Greek civil war and before the dissolution of Yugoslavia, there was no such thing as “Macedonia” in Greece or to a Greek. They refused to acknowledge the existence of such a thing in private, public, government, maps etc. After the splintering of Yugo, we see the “heartfelt” love of Macedonia by Greeks. All bullshit, politics, and fear of “territorial claims”.
Believe it or not, Xenos is correct in this instance and I am more shocked than anyone vis a vis his finally hitting a target.
Actually both Xenos and you, Cyd, seem to be clueless on the issue but I don’t have Oath Taken’s patience in educating and this is off-topic anyway. Well, at least what Xenos said makes sense; you can actually understand what he wrote.
Educating?! Haha, you Greeks take the biscuit! You are the most ignorant and prejudiced nation in the EU with regard to your own history and you have the bare-faced cheek to think that you know more than me.
Furthermore, I always make sense, even if you disagree with the premises or conclusions of the arguments. I have given up any attempts at rational discussion of Balkan issues with Greeks, because your opinions are based on schoolbook propaganda and nationalistic sentiment. However, I am not prepared to sit back and read crap without commenting on it.
You are a good social and political scientist but your knowledge of Greek (Balkan, Ottoman) history is usually sub-par as you’ve shown in the past here (and in your publications). I agree that you should comment on anything that you feel insults you (that wasn’t my intention – I was just stating a fact), you do always make sense and your damning arguments about conditions in Greece are usually correct but here I’ll disagree and not particularly respectfully, either.
Damn if I knew what Cyd was on about though.
…knowledge of Greek history is sub-par “in my publications”? Sorry, but that is not what I hear from Greek historians. I concede that some throw-away remarks made in anger on this blog were less than 100% correct, but that is all.
I am also informed by some of the leading professors of history in Greece that Greek academia generally is a disaster with the history of Greece. This is a view that I share, because the nationalistic propaganda is just fraudulent and Greeks cannot escape it. It is part of your culture — Balkan and partial.
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but most disagreements here seem to be about conclusions and facts rather than how we understand the world. With such an approach, there can be no dialogue.
Damn if I knew what Cyd was on about though.
No matter as I have never been able to speak to a Greek about this topic and have it not end in some form of verbal argument. Greeks are nationalistic, which is quite alright in my book. However, just like all other nationalists around the globe, their view is not always the correct view. The correct view regarding the Macedonian issue is far from the crystal clear and tidy propaganda that is fed the populace.
Again, no skin off my nose who wants to believe what regarding this topic.
Xenos, I read a lot about the peasant mentality of Greeks on this blog, and although I don’t agree that all Greeks are like this, I believe many are. Here’s a personal example of why I think they are like this. As a foreign person writing this comment in a Hotel in a Greek Hotel, I’m amazed at all the gawkers looking at me as if I’m some “alien” descended upon them. Funny, they don’t know I speak Greek but hearing them say “look at this guy with his computer, dressed like that here in this Hotel etc”. (I’m in sweats). I can’t help but think this IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE of GREEK PEASANT MENTALITY. My reasoning, I’ve been to London, Australia, USA etc and never had anyone Gossip about me right in front of my face and about something so petty and trivial. THIS IS PEASANTRY at it’s best. More sophisticated people will gossip about you behind your back, not right in front of you as the Greeks do, or maybe in other countries they have smarter things to talk about then the Foreign guy in sweatpants…. Just my two cents….
Ha! PM
No, I don’t think all Greeks are like that either. This overt peasant mentality is very difficult for urbanised folk to get to grips with: I have also experienced it over the years. There is an equivalent in Athens: this is when you get on a bus and all the people just stare right at you, if you don’t look like a typical Athenian peasant Greek!
However, I should add that in my view this behaviour is just quaint or sometimes mildly irritating. My major complaint concerns the more insidious Balkan peasant mentality, which tries to cheat you (with your money, your time, your reputation, your work) while bragging about their own (non-existent) achievements. This problem extends across all of Greece, including many people with high levels of education at Harvard or Oxford, etc. It is one of the main reasons that Greece remains stuck in a hole.
Oh Lord how unfair that you put such perfect people here on earth that have to endure us lowly Greeks..but then again we are not really descended from Greeks..
Get over yourselves…
You may even have some good points but your high and mighty attitude makes me think typical pseudo aristocratic academic.
So if as you say most Greeks are peasants…then where is your superiority…He who seeks to be the greatest is supposed to be a servant..not a blabber mouth and complainer about how everybody else is wrong or f-ed up.
Question to Diva, Panayote, Xenos..etc.. are any of you ever personally visiting the Roma, or the illegal immigrants etc and do anything personally humanitarian or do you just sit in your ivory towers saying the Greeks..terrible people they do not fix it..Of course I do not mean you can change everything …but do you do any public service and volunteer work….for a few hours a week or month amongst the people…helping them with food, clothes, giving them some petty cash…..
Ah
I did not think so.
So you are not better than the peasants, because you do not lead by example, just complain and say the state should do it all the municipality the Greeks..etc.
Why not use this blog to get some volunteers together to do a humanitarian activity at least once a month for even 2 hours.
There is an equivalent in Athens: this is when you get on a bus and all the people just stare right at you, if you don’t look like a typical Athenian peasant Greek!
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Maybe they stared at you because they were never graced with such a vision of perfection and beauty ?
I have seen plenty of blacks, bangladeshis, etc. in athens and nobody looks at them weird on the public transport..okay maybe one or two people might the rest do not care so…again maybe the people were looking at you because you are so handsome.
PD: clearly you have no idea what activists do, and Panayote and DD have every right to be highly offended by your remarks. They are both active in helping Roma and immigrant communities.
For my part, even though I do research and policy advice, I do meet up with immigrant groups to consult them on policy problems and the disastrous effects on the immigrant community of Greek policy. I hope that my work has made some small changes that might otherwise not have occurred, and am optimistic that EU legislation over the next few years will scupper the Greek idea that immigrants are here to be exploited and maltreated.
Insofar as staring on buses is concerned, I have heard other xenoi say the same. It is done to those who don’t look at all Greek — in my case, my hair colouring is decidedly northern European. I guess Greeks are bored with Asian and African migrants now, and don’t stare, but I am not so sure you are right.
Hm, perhaps we need “staring laws” to prosecute such hatefilled staring.
I am not sure what you mean by:
“EU legislation over the next few years will scupper the Greek idea that immigrants are here to be exploited and maltreated”
meaning that the average Greek sees them as existing for them to use or mistreat or rather that the Greeks see them as being exploited by business interests to undermine labor wages and standards?
I do not think most Greeks esp. if they do not have a business see them as their to mistreat and exploit. But they probably do think to themselves..these people picked the wrong country to come to..i.e, there are not that many jobs created to provide for ourselves much less all these newcomers..and to a certain extent probably are not happy about the total numbers that have come in thus changing the demographic.
I am just making an observation I am not judging it either way.
Two misunderstandings: (1) the stares are not hatefilled, they are merely impolite. It’s a trivial issue, just commentable.
(2) the “Greek idea..” that EU legislation needs to deal with, emanates from the state. This is basically the idea that immigrants should not have any rights, must pay social insurance from their own pocket if their employer refuses to pay, must pay social insurance out of low income just to renew their residence permits, are not entitled to work in “protected areas” such as owning businesses, the state sector, etc. The whole way that Greece has legislated for immigration is actually a direct attack on immigrants, a determination to exploit them, and deny legal rights.
@Post Disagreement,
It would have been easy to be insulted by your “ivory tower” remarks and I was ready to type off a comment in anger. I then thought to myself that I do not need to justify my actions to you and I know what I do in my life and so do many other people who read this blog regularly.
You reminded me that sometimes the actions that we do make are not enough and it’s good to strive to do more. You also reminded me of something that I had been meaning to do ages ago… adding an activism section to the blog. So in the end, thank you for being irritating (in this case)!
On the issue of staring, people who don’t get stared at because of the colour of their skin can NEVER understand what it is like or the extent to which it happens. Of course, it is a minor issue that people of colour deal with on a daily basis but is nonetheless hurtful and damaging over time. Wondering if someone is being stared at because they are attractive really trivializes the situation. WE can tell the difference.
Yeah, well, when I came to the UK I was struck by how people never look at you directly, and to what lengths they go to avoid eye contact. Actually, that applies to the Anglos’ mostly. I can’t say I like that, it makes everyone look like they have a stick up their arse. Plus, they never sit right next to you on the bus stop, and when they smile their eyes never twitch so if you’re not used to it it looks like they’re faking it. It’s a cultural thing I guess. When I want to be all ethnic Mediterannean, I bring it up, sly like. I love Brits when their cultural inferiority/ superiority complex triggers.
On the other hand, that only applies to people who look, you know, ordinary. It’s just that the boundaries of “ordinary” are defined differently. But people still have a notion of “weird” and they still stare at it when they find it. And call it names and throw things at it. I’m not it, but I got a specific trans friend in mind, who’s constantly harassed. In bloody Brighton too. But maybe that’s something that only happens to trans people.
I digress. In Greece, everybody looks at everybody else. Some people stare; and some people get stared at. Xenos, I can’t take you seriously when you complain about people who look at you when you get on the bus because you’re ginger. DeviousDiva is another matter. Greeks are fucking arseholes when it comes to race matters. Smart of you to point out it’s a minor inconvenience to you, though.
Wait. I just realised who you remind me of. Cato. Marcus Porcius Cato. The Roman consul who started every speech with “Carthago delenda est”. You end every post with “Greeks are peasants”.
Man. One day I’ll learn to spell Meditterrannnneannnn.
Just for the record, I totally missed the deleted posts (well, except for my own of course) so I have no idea what was said here.
But. There are other forums. And, Xenos, if you keep up your shit, I’ll put your picture there, with your full bio. As in the full bio of the toxic hate for Greeks that you keep spewing in the name of human rights and your official function as an advisor to the Greek government. Now let’s see who’s an anonymous coward, eh, cowboy?
Just totally fed up with the off-topic remarks so deleted everything that had no relevance to the posts. Out of anger… yes.
I have asked over and over again for some restraint and respect which has not been forthcoming.
I will employ comment moderation in the next week or so if you cannot control your urges to insult each other in such childish ways. And don’t bother to call me a nazi or shout about censorship… I’ve heard it all before.
Stassa: I will take legal action against you, if you think you can do as you like. There is something called freedom of speech, but there is no freedom to post photos of people or make personal attacks on them. You may not agree with what I have to say about Greece, but I have the legal right to say it.
You have never been attacked by me, nor do I have any interest in who you are. I suggest you confine your activities to legitimate comments on the topic in hand, instead of threatening people.
DeviousDiva,
I never called you a nazi or complained about cencosrhip and so on. It’s your blog and you choose what comments you want here. Actually, I do believe you care about stuff. Which is why I don’t get it: you seldom react to Xenos remarks about Greeks, but you rush to protect him whenever he puts his foot in his mouth, which is all the bloody time. I’m the one who said that Greeks have nothing to fear from prejudice against them, but hate speech is hate speech, and a racist prick is a racist prick even if he has replaced racial prejudice with cultural prejudice because that’s more acceptable.
It’s obvious that Xenos doesn’t give a shit about anyone’s rights, and he just wants to see dissent and unrest in Greece. And he is in an a position that he could, maybe, use to promote that. He’s as much on the side of stabilty and legality as Xrysi Avgi. And you know, Greece just happens to be my country, it’s in a very sensitive situation and anyone that speaks with hatred is a threat to everyone.
In he end, t’s your blog; it’s my country. So you do what you have to do and I do what I have to do. I still think we’re on the same side and I don’t have any bones to pick with you.
Xenos,
Θα μου κλάσεις μια μάντρα αρχίδια. My name is Stassa Patsantzis and my address is Flat 5, 38 Bedford Square, BN1 2PL, Brighton, East Sussex, UK, the EU, Oh and, if you want pictures of me, there’s plenty of them here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31341372@N04/
Only you can’t see the naughty ones unless you’re also naughty naughty. Bite me.
Wholeheartedly agree with Stassa above, though if I may, do not post your personal info on the net. Nothing good can come of it.
Stassa: you are just plain stupid, and should ask DD to remove your personal details from the blog.
I have the legal right to post comments on Greece, subject to the minor restrictions pertaining to hate speech. Only a fool would think that my comments constitute incitement to racial hatred, unlike the frequent anti-Semitic, anti-Roma and xenophobic comments of many Greeks.
Some of the comments about me, on the other hand, are clearly personal and professional attacks and are legally actionable. It is highly offensive to imply that my politics have anything to do with Chryssi Avgi and I suggest that you withdraw the remark. It is also a professional attack to suggest that I wish to promote dissent and unrest in Greece: an outrageous and baseless accusation. I can only presume that you need psychiatric treatment.
The internet is only now starting to be properly policed. I suggest that you (and Cyd) familiarise yourselves with the laws of your country of residence and of Greece. You need to get a grip on what is acceptable and what is not, because clearly at this time you both think you can do as you like.
I do not wish to take legal action against anyone, but after years of hatemail, libellous attacks and pure venom — all derived from my legitimate exercise of free speech — I am prepared to make an example of anyone who crosses the line. It is clear that Greeks believe in free speech only for themselves, especially when directed against foreigners. This is not the law, and you had better be aware of it. Incidentally, DD, as I have told you before, you (as the blog-owner) are also legally responsible for posts appearing here. I am sure that Panayote can advise you.
Xenos, I already told you οτι θα μου κλάσεις τ’ αρχίδια. Get Panayote to advise you on how to do this. In the meantime:
Nique ta mere, espece de cochon de putain de merde! Va te faire enculer chez les Grecs, connard!
There. Some multinational insults for you, so that you don’t have to hire a translator when you take me to Strasburg for breaching your human rights.
Stassa: I do not need legal advice. You, on the other hand, clearly do. Any legal action against you will be taken in the English courts, and it is nothing to do with human rights. Get your facts straight.
Oooh, this is exciting! I’ve never been to an English court. You think they’ll put me to jail? I’ve never been to an English jail either.
Anyway, here you go: Fuck you cunt. I shit on the grave of your whore mother, you little piece of worthless shit. Asshat. Uh. Um, Dipshit. Fucktard. Um. Um. Um. Dickhed. Er. Dammit. I hope this does it.