After years and years of ignoring immigrants in Greece, they are now being used as political pawns in the run-up to the next elections. I don’t believe any of the main parties care about the people themselves. They are making immigration the hot issue for their own ends.The ruling party New Democracy (ND) are responding to the “problem” by stating that they will round up undocumented people, hold them in detention centres (once they’ve been built despite the objection of locals) and deport them. The UN is very critical of the new ND measures. Please read here.
The main opposition party Pasok are equally pathetic in their dealings with immigration. They have issued an eight-point plan.
1. Zero-tolerance for illegal immigration
2. Additional European Union funding and support for guarding the country’s borders
3. Implementation of international and bilateral repatriation agreements, such as the one signed with neighbouring Turkey
4. An EU-wide burden-sharing policy so that asylum seekers and refugees may be resettled in other EU member states
5. Drastic overhaul of the country’s refugee policy so as to streamline the asylum application
6. Integration of immigrants into society, granting citizenship to the children of immigrants and to all those who fulfil all the requirements and cracking down on black-market labour
7. Overseas recruitment of workers to fill seasonal job vacancies
8. Reorganisation of cities and neighbourhoods, especially those that are neglected and turning into ghettos
Point one is easy. All the parties and most of the general public feel this way. This is not a plan, it’s a statement that plays into the hands of a paranoid public who will be voting very soon.
Point two is shaky because of a history of misusing EU funding and the vast amounts of money that has disappeared into a few people’s pockets.
Point three is unworkable given the animosity between Greece and Turkey.
Point four is unworkable given that no EU country wants to accept more asylum seekers and refugees.
Point five is a joke. With a less than one percent asylum recognition rate and zero interest in actually caring about asylum seekers, how is Pasok going to sell this one to people. His party did nothing when they were in power , why should we believe that they suddenly care about vulnerable people ?
If it wasn’t so sad I would have to laugh out loud at point six. Integration into a society where so many believe that there is no such thing as a Greek Muslim, Greek Jew, Greek Bahai or Greek Athiest! Let alone Greeks that have a parent or parents from Africa, India or China! Immigrants have been campaigning for at least a decade (probably more) for their children who are born here, educated here and know no other country, to be accepted as Greek citizens. And a crack down on the illegal workforce here. Please! Greece cannot survive without illegal labour! Not just with immigrants but generally. I know SO many Greeks who work here without proper insurance, with no work records, with no contracts. You think Pasok are going to stop that ?
Point seven is ridiculous. If there are so many people here working illegally and you are going to crackdown on that, why would you then go and look overseas to recruit more people? Surely the best idea is to recruit the people already here in a proper legal manner?
Point eight? Don’t make me laugh (again). There has been little commitment to ANY urban development or “reorganisation”. There is little or no affordable housing being developped and hardly a square metre of green space being created. Why on earth should we believe that Pasok is suddenly interested in people’s living spaces and welfare ?
The only party that is making strides in the area of immigration is the far-right party Laos (up to 7% in the latest Euro elections)
On a political level, the toxic combination of swelling immigration, crime and high unemployment has propelled a growth of far-right Laos, which was the only party to garner more votes during the recent European Parliament elections than in 2004
Laos have a simplistic and populist answer to immigration here in Greece. Process illegal immigrants and asylum seekers quickly, give them travel papers and a ticket to another EU country and you’re done. They become another country’s problem not yours. Great. People here are going to love it.
No political party ACTUALLY cares about immigrants as far as I can see. It’s simply a race to see who can get rid of them the fastest.
Rant over… for now.
Technorati Tags: greece, immigration, migrants, laos, pasok, ND
Citizenship Battles on February 17th, 2010
Being Greek on February 10th, 2010
Laos Against Citizenship on January 25th, 2010
The Immigration Debate on January 22nd, 2010
Lack of Humanity on November 2nd, 2009
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DD, one could use your list as a template for what is going on here in the United States with respect to immigration.
Thank you for educating us.:)
@Marcy Webb
It’s very, very sad isn’t it ? Probably the same all over the globe. It’s all about “we’re OK and sod the rest” I’m so angry at the moment that I can’t even read most of the research articles I should be reading to write this small blog. Way too depressing !
@ everyone
I won’t be here for the next 24 hours or so. Off for a bit of a much-needed girly day/evening! See you after my short break. Please play fair and stop being idiotic. You know who you are!
As a legal immigrant in Greece, I’m now at risk for being deported if, by some horrible accident, I do something that is considered illegal by the Greek government. Even though my husband has Greek citizenship.
It is so much easier to scapegoat people than deal with their problems. Who knows when this will change.
Amaliada: as the wife of an EU or Greek national, you are protected by EU law. You should have a 5-year residence permit through your marriage, and the Greek state has to answer to both the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights for any abuse of your rights. The Greeks, as always, like to pretend that only Greeks have any rights, but this is not the case. You have nothing to worry about unless you get involved in very serious crimes!
DD
Hronia Polla for the 3 Day Feasts-Holy Apostles Peter & Paul, Gathering of all the Apostles, & tom. Holy Unmercenaries( Doctors who healed & charged no “argyri” or silver-
I mention these Holy Days to remember that this period in Greek/Hellenic History shall, too pass- All of these people were Hellenized to various degrees-however,were not “Greek”- ethno-centricism has no place in our culture or in Orthodoxy-Present problems are also related to what the coming of the nation state brought- We can only work with the people to understand our history, & put the present in perspective-
On a positive note, I see there was a Human Rights Conference in Samos- Bravo, the work needs to be done from the ground up-
I will say this. Even though LAOS is far-right, there idea to force the hand of the EU is sound. But the aftermath should be fair and just immigration reform that respects human rights.
I sorta chuckled @ LAOS being called “far-right” but then I remembered that you’re not continental.
“Present problems are also related to what the coming of the nation state brought”
As opposed to the heaven that was the Ottoman Empire during its last two centuries. Fuck’s sake.
By any normal European criteria, LAOS is extreme right and has fascist principles. Anyone who claims otherwise is either a member of it, or just completely ignorant.
And the Greek claim that the period of the Ottoman Empire was sheer hell is hyperbole and nationalistic. The historical evidence does not support that claim. The rest of Europe was no picnic at that time either, but Greeks always think they are so hard done by.
Hey KK4E (Kommonistiko Komma gia Panta eeee!!)
I am continental. LAOS gives refuge to self-styled far-right personalities (Boridis, plus some ex-Chrysi Augi). And while not all of it’s policies are far right, some are. Karatzaferis has claimed this title during the 90s. Here, I will change it to Franco style right. Better right? Socialism-Christianity-Nationalism (hell they even share anti-semetism with Franco). It is not fascist, but it does have such elements.But hey, define far-right?
There where times were things in the empire were ok (primarily before the 17th Century), and then times where it was hell (primarily after the 17th century).
Travlo: see my reply located on “Abuse of Migrant Workers”… my browser (Opera) has real problems with this website
DIVA SAID:
“If it wasn’t so sad I would have to laugh out loud at point six. Integration into a society where so many believe that there is no such thing as a Greek Muslim, Greek Jew, Greek Bahai or Greek Athiest! ”
There may be Greek citizens who are all those things, but most ethnic/by blood/cutlure/historical connection to Greece Greeks are Christians. I agree its possible for non-Christians to be ETHNIC Greeks…because Greek people join other religions too.
BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT you are SAYING…you are saying someone from Pakistan who is Muslim..is a Greek which is nonsense.
They may possibly be Greek citizens..but stop deny my people their ethnic identity…
Thats hypocrisy and inconsistent with your and your other bloggers other articles and comments..complaining of Greeks denying self-identified minorities their right to a non-Greek identity.
SO STOP CONFLATING ETHNICITY WITH NATIONALITY…ITS NOT THE SAME THING.
AND IS A NEW WORLD ORDER zeitgeist that just because someone breaks into your country lays their eggs there they are part of that ethnicity..blurring or attempting to confuse for the purpose of breaking down society…so the elites can consolidate control..thats not your agenda..you are just a pawn a useful idiot in new world order program of promoting desturction of family and ethnic identity.
>>>>>>>Let alone Greeks that have a parent or parents fro Africa, India or China! <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Immigrants have been campaigning for at east a decinde (probably more) for their children who are born here, educated here and know no other country, to be accepted as Greek citizens.
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And a crack down on the illegal workforce here. Please! Greece cannot survive without illegal labour!
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People in Greece who like cheap exploitable labor can not survive or rather luxuriate without illegal labor.
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Not just with immigrants but generally. I know SO many Greeks who work here without proper insurance, with no work records, with no contracts. You think Pasok are going to stop that ?
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Yes they are forced to compete with such a large illegal undocumented foreign population of course they have to do that.
Illegal immigration hurts the lowest rungs of society..in terms of decimating labor standards.
Thats why rich and upper middle class greeks love illegal aliens because they are exploitable.
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People who have at least some blood/culure tie to Greekness are Greeks (ethnically speaking)..and you know that..because later in your rant you even say you know of Greeks who work off the books. so stop trying to confuse ethnicity and nationality.
i.e, there is nothing wrong with being Bulgarian, polish or Pakistani…they may even possibly be Greek citizens but they are not Greeks. end of story.
@Post Disagreement
In my travels around Greece, I meet many Albanians of Greek descent. Their only crime is that their village is now on the Albanian side of the border after being on the Greek side for many years previously (usually one or another war created this situation). Their families speak Greek, are Orthodox Christians, and they consider themselves Greek.
But not the Greek government or other Greeks.
So, where do they fit into your vision of “what makes a Greek?”
“Their only crime is that their village is now on the Albanian side of the border after being on the Greek side for many years previously (usually one or another war created this situation).”
Your post is a bit confusing but if you’re referring to South Albania (North Epirus), which is the only situation I can think of, this is not accurate. The Greek army temporarily held the area three times (Balkan wars, WW1, WW2) and there were “North-epirotic” Greek attempts towards autonomy in 1914 but nothing that would constitute “many years previously”.
But you’re apparently speaking of Greeks who moved from their villages in Albania to Greece? What Greek doesn’t think of them as fellow Greeks (I’m not going to get into the whole “some-are-actually-Albanians-who-pretend-to-be-omogeneis-to-trick-the-system”)? The Greek government is a different matter, getting citizenship is hard for everyone born outside Greece, unfortunately…
“Post disagreement” did make a good point, though. Some Greek citizens might not feel part of the “Greek nation” and they shouldn’t be forced to do so (only if they’re willing). Of course the former is what actually MATTERS in the world, while the latter, imagined but still existing in the heads of many including myself, doesn’t (well it does to an extent but that would complicate matters and we don’t have enough space
).
@ Post Disagreement
No that’s not what I’m saying but you always feel that it’s necessary to have your little rants !
You have never accepted that anyone with a parent or grandparent from somewhere other than Greece can be Greek. You have never accepted that someone who is born here, educated here, done their military service etc and know NO other place than Greece can ever be Greek. We have had this discussion before and I asked you WHEN exactly do you accept someone as Greek ? Second, third, fourth generation ? Not just a citizen but “properly” Greek ? Please explain your “logic” because many of my “proper” Greek friends have a grandparent or great-grandparent from elsewhere. Are they still Greek ?
No that’s not what I’m saying but you always feel that it’s necessary to have your little rants !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually yes it is if you take it to its logical conclusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have never accepted that anyone with a parent or grandparent from somewhere other than Greece can be Greek. You have never accepted that someone who is born here, educated here, done their military service etc and know NO other place than Greece can ever be Greek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thats not even remotely what I believe or said. So let me try this again.
First, ethnicities are different from nationalities.
ethncities have to do with blood and culture.
nationalities has to do with citizenship.
There are Pomak speaking Muslims who are indeed Greek citizens..and yes they should have the right to be Muslim and a Greek citizen with the same rights and responsibilities. But they themselves..do not consider themselves Greeks..they consider themselves Pomaks or Turks in some instance.
Now a Pontian Greek whose ancestors lived in Kazakshtan or Ukraine and may even be partly russian or ukranian or kazaki. but identify as Greek ethnically and indeed have some connection to the Greekness by blood even if its only partly so…are Greek.
A Nigerian married to Chinese woman who has a baby in Greece has an ehtnically Chinese and Nigerian baby..perhaps that baby may become a citizen of Greece..but their ethnicity does not change.
Now supposing that this baby grows up and identifies culturally as a Greek with the mast majority of Greeks..well they would still not be Greek in the ethnic sense but they can be “adopted”.
because they assimilated to the majority culture and most likely they will marry a by blood Greek. If they want a Chinese wife or Nigerian husband that goes to show they feel themselves they are different from the rest…NOTICE I did not say they are less human..they are just NOT GREEK ETHNICALLY regardless of citizenship.
A Pakistani who marries a Pakistani and has his son or daughter marry Pakistani or other non-greeks but lives in Greece that kid is NOT GREEK.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We have had this discussion before and I asked you WHEN exactly do you accept someone as Greek ? Second, third, fourth generation ? Not just a citizen but “properly” Greek ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When their children..get the Greek injection…Sperm from a Greek father or eggs from an Ethnically Greek mother..thats it.
Do you get it now…there are such things as families nd ethnicities and kin groups.
stop conflating one with the other.
And there are not 4 generations of non-greeks living in Greece..mass immigration to Greece is only a recent phenomena.
Do you meant to tell me someone with no ethnically Greek ancestor, practicing a religion different from the majority is Greek just because they have been living here for generations.
Go tell that to the Thrakian Muslims who consider themselves Turks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please explain your “logic” because many of my “proper” Greek friends have a grandparent or great-grandparent from elsewhere. Are they still Greek ?
Yes if that person has one drop of Greek Blood.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Greek = ethnicity..
Greek National = Greek citizenship.
There are Greeks who are not Greek Nationals and Non-Greeks who are not ethnically Greek but are Greek Nationals.
Get it?
Pakistai married to Pakistani has baby in Greece who marries another Pakistani …has baby marries a bangladeshi…is NOT GREEK will never be…
You can marry in and have Greek babies or part Greek babies they are Greek.
Most Muslim Pakistanis do not feel Greek.
They may want Greek citizenship but that has nothing to do with their sense of ethnic identity.
Get it?
On my mothers side of my family none of them were born in Greece.
Yet they are Greeks. They are Not turks or russians..and would never have been considered as such by the majority of the natives in the respective lands they lived..they may have been accepted as fellow citizens or even as native to the area but distinct from themselves…
thats how most of the world feels and thinks about ethnicity and it makes perfect sense and matches human nature.
You are intending to guilt the majority Greeks into becoming a minority by simply baptizing millions of non_greeks who live in Greece as just as Greek as them even in the ethnic sense.
Go sell that in the UK and France they actually colonized Africa and Asia and perhaps they should have a flexible idea of who is conected to them and who is not.
Unfortunately, I’ve been misunderstood. I know what people here tell me about Albanian Greeks – that is all I know. I don’t say that I know more.
Because I’m an American, I find Post Disagreement’s arguments unfathomable. In the US, ANYONE born in the country is automatically an American, and a citizen.
There are lots of different religions as well as races in the States, and I have to say, as a Roman Catholic, I am happy for the separation between Church and State.
That is not to say that I want Greece to be more like America. It is just that I have no frame of reference for a place where people contribute to the society (in words, deeds, and financially), raise their children with the values and mores of that society, and are still considered other.
But, as I am often told, This is Greece. So be it. This is Greece. But, does that make it right, humane, or moral? Those are different questions and I think I’ve made my position fairly clear – as have many of you.
So, let’s just agree to disagree and to disagree agreeably.
@Amaliada
You put it so well!
I have no frame of reference being from England where there is no ethnically “English” as far as I know. If you’re English, you’re English that’s it. I’m as English as the white person standing next to me.
And I also don’t want Greece to become America or England. I just have a hard time dealing with this “proper” Greeks issue.
And the “one drop” rule is REALLY disturbing to me because it was used for the OPPOSITE reason in America, South Africa etc. One drop of Black blood meant you were less worthy of equal rights and dignity. Here it seems to be “one drop” makes you Greek. Unless you happen to be of mixed heritage…
I have an example for Post Disagreement: Two sisters at the kids primary school have a grandma who was from Ghana. She married a Greek man and came here to live. She had a mixed race daughter who also married a Greek man and had the two little girls (who went to school with my son). They are mixed race (obviously!). Their mum grew up here and identifies as Greek. She speaks English only because she learned it here. The kids are totally Greek or are they, Post Disagreement? They are Greek and they are black. Is that possible to you?
Ugh! It’s late and I’m tired so I’ll leave it there for now. I’ll answer the rest of you comment tomorrow.
PS
I understand what you are saying. You don’t have to be patronising. What I want to know us where your marker is for being a “proper” Greek. I have a problem with those little girls having to clarify that they are Greek but not really ? It might not have been you who said it in the end (sorry if I’m wrong) but I had a whole conversation with someone who thought that you could only be Greek if you had two “ethnically pure” Greek parents?
Amaliada, I don’t think you understood me at all.
“In the US, ANYONE born in the country is automatically an American, and a citizen.”
Yes, everyone BORN IN GREECE is automatically a GREEK CITIZEN as well. For the rest, see my above post.
I’m sorry if you were talking to “Post disagreement”, though. I mostly disagree with his posts, as well.
)
Actually, re-reading the last two, I mostly agree with an exception regarding the “baptizing of millions(!)” part.
“I’m as English as the white person standing next to me.”
What are you if you don’t mind?
I’m sure the difference in perception lies in the different nation-building processes in the respective countries…but again this has (or at least, should have) little to do with citizenship.
I also don’t think that Greeks generally have any problems accepting visible, and I’m not referring only to appearance , “outsiders” as fellow Greeks (again, I’m not talking about citizenship) though this only comes from personal experience and not serious studies.
Oof, the difficulties of inadequately-defined social groups…
The whole issue of “Greekness” started with the creation of modern Greece and did not exist as a problematic concept until then. This is essentially because there never was a country called Greece: there were originally city-states, later followed by complex empires (Roman and Byzantine. Greek identity was an ethno-cultural idea without a legal framework.
Now, in the modern world Greeks have nothing but problems with their out-of-date conceptions. Even the Supreme Court has made muddled and silly rulings about what Greekness is, and over the last century some 60,000 Greeks had their citizenship removed for not being Greek enough. Essentially, the claim that all Greeks are genetically linked with “Ancient Greeks” [whatever they are supposed to be!] is foolish and misguided. Greeks are Greeks by virue of their education, Aristotle tells us — thus making it a cultural concept and inclusive one at that.
Basically, Greece has to drop its 19th century racism and move into the twentieth century (while everyone else in the 21st) and face certain facts. Genetic diversity is one of those, and a very good thing it is too. Second is that being Greek should reflect an attachment to cultural values and beliefs, which can be acquired as in all countries. However, the attachment does not exclude other attachments: the Greek hypenated diaspora is massive, and often without Greek citizenship (e.g. Americans). Thirdly, Greek citizenship should denote membership of a modern state — and remove the linkage with religion. This too is horribly out of date and drags Greece back into a grisly past.
IN other words, Greece needs to become like a normal modern European country, and try to include within its citizenry all those people who were born here, belong here and will probably remain here.
Yes, everyone BORN IN GREECE is automatically a GREEK CITIZEN as well. For the rest, see my above post.
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actually this is not true.
and to answer Diva…
everyone has their own opinion…but those girls that are part Greek and part Ghanaian. to me since they are both blood Greek for lack of a better way of putting it, and the were raised in Greece to they are Greek. They are Greek and Ghanaian at the same time simultaneously.
This has nothing to do with racism mr. xenos..there are such things as unqiue races, cultures, religions …we are all human but that does not mean we are the same..i am talking about worthiness..just distinctiveness. are not we told repeatedly to celebrate diversity?
Well if we are all the same and there are no distinctions then there is no diversity..
Instead of pretending that different cultures, religions have no differences we need to be honest about that and how that could be a cause of social conflict.
The whole point of the creation of Greece was to provide a homeland for the Greeks. this does not denigrate the value of non-greeks in Greece. Its our house people here legally and love us can stay..you hate us…go back where you came from.
BTW you do hate us..stop lying to yourself. mr. xenos.
Again I am not against some amount of immigration and I am not against the imigrants per se as individuals…but most of Greek society feels that the number here whether legal or illegal etc..is too much now. we need to cut off the spigot.
We need expel those here illegally, grant asylum to legitimate asylum seekers within the means of the country to absorb them and the rest who will stay need to be loyal to Greece and assimilate to Greek culture..not bring there sharia and cliterodectomies etc. here.
I better correct this…the word NOT makes a big difference:
This has nothing to do with racism mr. xenos..there are such things as unqiue races, cultures, religions …we are all human but that does not mean we are the same..i am NOT talking about worthiness..just distinctiveness. are not we repeatedly to celebrate diversity?
i.e, we are all human, saying someone is not greek is not saying they are evil or bad or worse or less…so calm down.
“over the last century some 60,000 Greeks had their citizenship removed for not being Greek enough. ”
True, but the majority of those that lost their citizenship where Cham Albanians that fought on the side of the Axis powers against Greece during WWII. Even in the liberal west treason at a time of war gets punished, sometimes with death.
DD
England? You mean the UK. I would ask if Scot, Welsh, Anglo-Saxon, Irish, Cornish is devoid of cultural meaning? You say you are English. I would say you are British. You can’t be English because you are not Anglo-Saxon. Do Irish or Welsh see themselves as ethnically the same as Scots or Cornwall people? Then again I do take a very deep historical view to ethnicity. Actually were is your descend from?
In the end I think that PD makes a valid case. If we accept diversity then we do accept a certain amount of differentiation, and indeed celebrate it. The Celebrate the things that unite us is all nice and good, but it also signifies the existence of important elements that separate us. And to be frank, the glory call of post-1968 Liberalism is to celebrate those differences. And if diversity means may cultural identities I would ask if one can be a member of more than one or two? When does diversity just become shallowness? Or when does it become dicisivness. To be fair PD is not that wrong in pointing out that he has a right, just as everyone else of promoting his cultural identity, celebrating it and safeguarding it. This is the call of the age from left and right (in diffrent ways true), with some old stuanchy classical (with socialist leanings) liberals like yours truly being skeptical. As he/she has said he doesn’t necessarily identify nationality with citizenship.
I have to respond to Xenos a bit more:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Greeks are Greeks by virue of their education, Aristotle tells us — thus making it a cultural concept and inclusive one at that.
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Except that I would argue even this definition of Greekness does not allow for this free for all immigration diva and you and panayote advocate.
Honestly, I think certain cultures can produce people with that kind of desire for Greek education..philosophy etc.
But the people trying to break into our country are looking for Euros not to be acculturated to Greek civilization ancient o modern.
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Basically, Greece has to drop its 19th century racism and move into the twentieth century (while everyone else in the 21st) and face certain facts.
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Its not racist to note there are races
and what country besides the USA and some anglo-saxon based “idea” countries. do not have some kind of kin and kith view of who is one of them and who is not…
None of Greeces neighbors thats for sure..
Not Germany…Not Japan…Not China…
Are filippino catholics who work in saudi arabia and have kids there saudi arabians?
of coruse not.
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Genetic diversity is one of those, and a very good thing it is too. Second is that being Greek should reflect an attachment to cultural values and beliefs,
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Should not the native Greeks get a say in what being Greek should or should not mean. Hello.
And anyway dont you believe our cultural values and beliefs are f–ed up anwyay…from reading your other posts…it sounds like it.
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which can be acquired as in all countries.
Doubtful..this is not how human nature works.
maybe abstractly a papua new guinean could be greek, but no likely.
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However, the attachment does not exclude other attachments: the Greek hypenated diaspora is massive, and often without Greek citizenship (e.g. Americans). Thirdly, Greek citizenship should denote membership of a modern state — and remove the linkage with religion.
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Greek citizenship is not linked to religion there are greek citizens who are mormons, jews, catholics, orthodox of course, evangelicals, atheists, polytheist etc.
But Christianity none the less and specifically did and does informthe culture.. religion is part of culture.
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This too is horribly out of date and drags Greece back into a grisly past.
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really so to be advanced we should have an atheistic state?
Would you apply the same to israel and , and saudi arabia and islam..
what are you talking about.. YOU CAN be whatever religion you want in Greece
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IN other words, Greece needs to brecome like a normal modern European country, and try to include within its citizenry all those people who were born here, belong here and will probably remain here.
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Again you are using this American Idea of you were born here so you are prt of the nation..theory which actually is not the case with most european countries.
basically whats annoying is this promotion of the idea of Greeks being racist or evil because we do not want to be overwhelmed by people so unlike ourselves and our majority culture.
Would Muslim Turkey welcome millions of chinese buddhists and indian hindus and celebrate diversity…no.
even the socalled modern european countries natives not the elites…have a ethnic view of who they are…
Diva maybe British, but she is not English unless her mum or dad or someone up the chain is descended from the original native people of England..Anglo-saxons.
notice i did not say she is less human less worthy etc..just not English thats it.
Citizenship is not the same as ethncity.
Why dont you critique the society you originate from xenos and tell them how to be. and if they are so perfect tell us who is this race of superhuman super liberals that we should emulate…i.e what are you?
Xenos:”Greeks are Greeks by virue of their education”
No, sorry, the nation is a social group, not (necessarily) a cultural, or racial (! of course you agree with this), one and that’s where I strongly disagree with “Post disagreement” as well. I agree with the rest you’ve written. (Where does Aristotle say so, btw?)
Post Disagreement:”actually this is not true.”
I might be mistaken but I’m pretty sure it is. I’ll ask a friend who is familiar with the law. If it isn’t, it should be.
Btw, I think that most of your concerns and fears should be easily dispelled if you’re reminded of the diversity of the populations that constitute the nation (just look at the Greek case since you’re probably more familiar with it)…
Of course, “shared education” might work towards building a “shared identity” and hell, education” has been one of the most effective tools of nation-building.
A couple of quick points from several posts.
1: only those born in Greece to Greek parents can take Greek citizenship. This is the clear law. It is extremely difficult to acquire Greek citizenship (by naturlisation) without having Greek ethnicity or marrying a Greek.
2: The figure of 60,000 who had their citizenship removed includes Slavs and Vlachs in the 1930s, Communists in the 1940s and Muslims since 1950. The Tsami have nothing to do with it, as their number was small, many were murdered by Greeks and the rest fled to Albania.
3: the attribution to Aristotle is often cited, but I dont know the source. There is an older attribution to Isokrates: “So far has Athens left the rest of mankind behind in thought and expression that her pupils have become the teachers of the world, and she has made the name of Hellas distinctive no longer of race but of intellect, and the title of Hellene a badge of education rather than of common descent.”[Panegyricus, 50]
4: it is well established by genetics and social science research that objectively there are no “races” but that race is a social construction. The latest scientific thinking shows that we are all descended from Africans, with the differences between us determined by (a) when our ancestors migrated from Africa and how long they lived in other climates; and (b) what our personal genetic material actually is — e.g. how genetically mixed you are. Most people in connected parts of the world have very mixed genes and their physical appearance is often poorly correlated with genetic reality. Racism is predicated on how other people see you, not on how you actually are.
4) Entirely correct but this still means little. Racists (much like nationalists), who in reality couldn’t care less about the biology, will still exist.
1) The relevant article regarding the citizenship of those who are born in Greece, untranslated:
“Ν 3284/2004: Περί κυρώσεως του ΚΩΔΙΚΑ της ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΣ ΙΘΑΓΕΝΕΙΑΣ
Άρθρο 1
1. Το τέκνο Έλληνα ή Ελληνίδας αποκτά από τη γέννησή του την Eλληνική Ιθαγένεια.
2. Την Eλληνική Ιθαγένεια αποκτά από τη γέννησή του και όποιος γεννιέται σε ελληνικό έδαφος, εφόσον δεν αποκτά με τη γέννησή του αλλοδαπή ιθαγένεια ή είναι άγνωστης ιθαγένειας.”
3)
Saggat;
Why should a nation offer citizenship to someone born in its borders if neither parent is a citizen?
that practice is only established in the USA only and even there there is a movement to change that. as its a misreading of their laws and it isbeing abused by illegal alians who want to get into the US to lay an egg and get citizenship for their kid, and then by extension themselves and of course get the benefits of a first world society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
Actually race is a biology fact, there are differences between races and that is well established. just look at how different people are in their appearance.
Africans have more melanin and thus have black skin and its good that they do, because this protects them in the sun..and guess what there is more sun exposure the closer you get to the equator. People in northern europe are pale and this allows more light to come in to give them vit D in their cloudy environment. however, if you take a black to northern europe they will have vitamin d deficiencies..if you take a white person to nigeria they will likely sun burn easily.
There is nothing racist or malicious about noting that there are races and differences between people. ITs not about inferior and superior just being different.
Saggat:
First of all, the rules on Greek nationality and citizenship are very complex, so you cannot take one piece of legislation and understand things from that.
Secondly, to provide an interpretation of what you have pasted, here is (my) translation:
Article 1
1. The child of a male or female ethnic Greek [i.e. not necessarily a citizen] acquires from birth the Greek nationality.
2. Greek nationality is also acquired from birth by a person who is born on Greek territory, provided he/she does not obtain by his/her birth a foreign nationality or he/she is of unknown nationality.
Several comments: Greek nationality (but not the word as used in international law) means an ethnic Greek. It does not mean that the person has a Greek passport or other official ID.
A Greek Citizen is a person of Greek nationality who is duly registered in the Records of a Municipality of the Hellenic Republic.
The Greek words for citizenship and nationality are a big mess and do not tranlate either legally or linguistically. They are frequently confused with each other, since by “nationality” Greeks really mean ethnicity, whereas the rest of the world means legal membership of a state.
The meaning of Art. 1.1 is that Greeks are born to Greeks, regarldess of where they are born. The meaning of Article 1.2 is approximately zero, other than to state that those born stateless in Greece will be awarded Greek nationality. In my opinion, it is a piece of legal fraud, trying to give a better impression of Greece than the reality…
The concept of an “ethnic Greek” (or member of the imagined “Greek nation” or whatever you want to call it) does not exist in law as far as I know. Where it says “Έλληνας” or “Ελληνίδα”, it means “male/female Greek citizen”, e.g. an Albanian couple who have acquired the Greek “ιθαγένεια” (now that is a difficult procedure) are considered “Έλληνες” by law.
As for 1.2, that’s my reading of it as well, legal fraud or not.
About terminology, I don’t disagree, though it doesn’t really matter as far as we understand what we’re talking about. Studies on the nation don’t always help, either, since some writers frequently equate ethnicity with “shared cultural characteristics”, while others use it to denote “shared ideas of kinship”. And we all know the difficult with translating the English terminology into Greek (έθνος, εθνότητα etc.).
I do disagree with your, actually very frequent, comments about “Greece vs the world” since I highly doubt that such a dichotomy exists. I think that you’re just being overly critical – applying high standards to your country, or whatever you feel Greece to be to you, is fine and even commendable but there’s no need for such generalisations.
*difficult = difficulty. no edit feature? >:(
Well, I am not an expert on Greek citizenship/nationality law. I need to get advice from colleagues who are, about the real meaning of Article 1. You may be right, that it is not a conferment of Greek nationality to homogeneis, but it definitely does not require the parent to be a registered citizen of Greece or resident in Greece.
I am also having second thoughts about my translated terminology, although I stick to the view that there are serious problems with the concepts.
My comments about “Greece vs the world” are not about high standards, but about deviant state behaviour. We can find other countries, such as Israel, also with institutionalised racism in their citizenship approach. For general legal or constitutional deviance, my own country of the UK takes the prize. However, the UK has been rapidly converging onto European norms, whereas Greek politicians seem very afraid to do so.
I am a British citizen of mixed heritage (English and Jamaican), born and brought up in England. That makes me English. I was not saying that Scot, Welsh, Anglo-Saxon, Irish, Cornish is devoid of cultural meaning at all ! I’m not sure why you get that impression ?
Well, actually, there IS something slightly wrong with being Bulgarian, Polish or Pakistani, if you are standing on GREEK SOIL. Especially if you are the Pakistani one…
There is no such thing as an “Albanian Greek”. There are ALbanians who live and work in Greece, with their Albanian children. And there are Greeks of Northern Epirus (Southern Albania) who live with their Greek children in their Greek villages of Northern Epirus.
Exactly. Thats is why your country is a corporation, NOT a nation, like Greece and the majority of the “Old Europe” countries.. Get it honey? And you should more likely be using the world “Amalia” which is a female name, instead of “Amaliada” which is a PLACE. OK?
This is not Greece. This is Hellas.
Nope, we can’t agree on that honey. To disagree with someone, he/she has to know what he/she is talking about. You don’t! Sorry honey, we can’t agree on anything. Go gome and have some cheesecake and a milkshake.
There is no ethnically English in England??? LOL!!! I assure you there are white English who would not agree with being as much “english” as you. But of course you know that.
No, you don’t get it correct, one drop of NON-GREEK blood, makes you suspiciously mixed, thus not a NORMAL Greek. Get your facts straight people.
Black Greeks? NOT POSSIBLE. Greek-speaking blacks who happens to inhabit in Greece? Sure. If they are legal and not bring their whole village here too. If they are an exception.
Come on man, relax. Why don’t you like LAOS? They re nice people. Take it easy man, have a pint.
In Ottoman times, Christians were second class citizents with their life in many cases being subject to the will of Sultans and Turk officials. Rivers of Turkish blood have sealed the fact that Greeks did not like that period. What more do you want? Come on man, don’t be like that, where are you, i ll buy you a drink and you ll agree you are not seeing things correctly.
How many books did you have to read to come to the above conclusion?
By “the modern world” i suppose you refer to the anglo-saxon New World Order, that your co-patriots along with your former colony and the Zionists have created to enslave humanity. It is a title of Honour, not to belong to your ranks, Xene.
Says a former(?) barbarian. Understandably.
Ehm, do your homework again, do you mean Isokrates maybe? Isokrates was a follower of the Macedonian Dynasty and of Alexander and he wanted Greeks under the leadership of Alexander and the Macedonians, to rule upon all barbarians of the world. Yet you believe he would claim that “Greek” is something refering simply to education. By repeating what the leftists and monkeys have said in Greece, you sound twice as ridiculous. Isokrates simply said that since Greeks were the ones who possessed the knowledge, apart from the force, the term Greek means ALSO an educated person. Being Greek is firstly a race issue, then an ethnicity issue and then, a culturally inclusive issue. For example, a Harvard professor of classical Greek history may culturally be “Greek”. He ll never of course be racially Greek.
Now we re not entirely sure about that, are we??? No one knows what the future has in store!
Of course you don’t.
Xene you re living in Greece and express your opinions about Greek issues. Why haven’t you answered me what it is you are doing here exactly? Are you afraid of something? If you think you are entitled to an opinion here, even in the internet, then you must be doing everything correct. Why not answer me then? What are you hiding?
Well, it took five days for the racists to come out and play.
Sorry, I don’t play or talk with racists. They only know how to throw bombs, sometimes they are word bombs.
Name one racist thing i said.
Don’t you? But you re already INSIDE our playground, if you live in Greece, don’t you realize that?
Typical of anti-greek hatred and jealousy. “No, there are no more Greeks left, you are all mixed, bla bla bla, bla bla bla. Typical barbarian maliciousness towards the Hellenic Nation.
What is your point?
There is no sense of English ethnicity for the simple reason that the massive migration movements into England over the last 1,000 years make it very clear to everyone that they are originally of mixed race. Thus, citizenship was always granted on the basis of birth on the territory. This is less true of Welsh and Scots, who have some sort of ethnic identity, but again with an awareness of genetic mixing. Thus, the inhabitants of the UK do not fall into the trap of thinking that they are a race — in the way that the Nazis did, and some Greeks also seem to think.
The history of Greek historical migrations is very different, which led to the use of “ius soli”, or citizenship acquisition by blood. Of course, there was massive racial mixing with Greeks travelling and marrying all over the world. Now, Greeks are as genetically diverse as the British and you can see this even in varied skin colours and hair types, etc. The linkage with Ancient Greeks is very weak, after 2,000 years of migrations and intermarriages. Therefore, the idea of being “racially Greek” is nothing more than a bad joke — otherwise known as racialism.
Insofar as “right to an opinion: is concerned, Nemesist, are you aware that Greece has been a member of the European Union since 1981 and Citizens of the Union have full rights to live wherever they like, vote in local and EU elections, and express their opinions as freely as they like? The law on this is very clear, despite the fact that Greek politicians try to pretend it is not.
There is no sense of English ethnicity for the simple reason that the massive migration movements into England over the last 1,000 years make it very clear to everyone that they are originally of mixed race. Thus, citizenship was always granted on the basis of birth on the territory. This is less true of Welsh and Scots, who have some sort of ethnic identity, but again with an awareness of genetic mixing. Thus, the inhabitants of the UK do not fall into the trap of thinking that they are a race — in the way that the Nazis did, and some Greeks also seem to think.
The history of Greek historical migrations is very different, which led to the use of “ius soli”, or citizenship acquisition by blood. Of course, there was massive racial mixing with Greeks travelling and marrying all over the world. Now, Greeks are as genetically diverse as the British and you can see this even in varied skin colours and hair types, etc. The linkage with Ancient Greeks is very weak, after 2,000 years of migrations and intermarriages. Therefore, the idea of being “racially Greek” is nothing more than a bad joke — otherwise known as racialism.
Insofar as the “right to an opinion” is concerned, Nemesist, are you aware that Greece has been a member of the European Union since 1981 and Citizens of the Union have full rights to live wherever they like, vote in local and EU elections, and express their opinions as freely as they like? The law on this is very clear, despite the fact that Greek politicians try to pretend it is not.
Xenos you are way off in basically asserting that the English are mixed race..they have melded over time with Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Celts and Norse people.. they formed their own state and all these people merged together under a common culture.
Same with Greece. I disagree with you..most Greeks are descended from ancient Greeks. its possible that all nations have had admixture but they were in doses not waves of people in one or two decades from far flunged places of the earth like Nigeria, China, Pakistan.
Anyway at the end of the day it does not matter.
Most Greeks do not want Greece to be over run with non-Greeks and do not want to have a flexible view of Greekness as you may like..to bad.
Besides the US (and actually even in the US for a long time) being considered part of the nation meant having cultural and blood ties to the place. i.,e even in the USA they originally only welcomed Northern European Protestants as immigrants…No country and I am sure that includes the country you come from that is based on your ethnic heritage..says oh welll bring in hundreds of thousands of people with different religions and cultures and we will jsut say that they are us.
End of the day..most Greeks do not want so many non-Greeks living here and immigrating here, for a variety of reasons including social cohesion, social stability, economics, political stability, preserving our homeland for our own people etc.
A country to most people is like a house and its citizens like a very loosely related extended family. People may be adopted , marry in but if someone breaks in they are an invader in a sense and arrogant to demand acceptance..No one invited them.
You can believe what you want but I do not believe the vast majority of these people are legit asylum seekers..but rather economic migrants. And even if they all were legit..there is a limit to the number of people a society can accept and acomidate.
Diva: since you are by blood part english then of course your English or at least part English..but your Jamaican parent is not…you obviously know the difference between ethnicities, stop trying to confuse people.
You gave me an example of a girl who had parent one Greek and one Ghanaian. But before that you were talking in general about people born in Greece or who grew up in Greece and got educated in Greece etc..implying of course that if you are in no way ethnically Greek and your parents illegally entered or overstayed their visas in Greece and birth you here..you should now be considered Greek….so you see how you are trying to confuse people.
Most Greeks do not want Greece to be overwhelmed with masses of people from all over the globe with many different cultures and religions and languages etc. Some immigration and cultural exchange is fine but when it reaches the point where the majority is threatened with becoming a minority in their own homeland in a few decades if this rate continues..then you are asking too much.
I sense that Xenos must be of Muslim heritage and possibly Albanian, Turkish or of some tribe that has a vendetta against Greece and Greeks..because he would …with the policies he wishes Greece to adopt make Greece into a majority non-Greek state ethnically speaking with those policies.
Problem with this immigration is the numbers already here and the numbers continuing to come in.
Secondly the source…I think its preferable that a European country choose to take immigrants from those countries that have a similar culture, religion, etc as the majority for reasons that are obvious to most honest social observers…people assimilate if they are similar the less similar they are in culture, traditions and religion the more difficulty in assimilating.
Put it this way you can marry in, be born into being Greek, or be adopted, but if you break in you are an invader..regardless and do not have a right simply because you demand it to become part of the tribe.
SO no way does someone simply being born and raised in Greece make them Greek. You are going to tell me a Pakistani Muslim born and raised in Greece is a Greek and we share the same culture and identity?
And lets be honest here..these people could give a fig about being considered Greek or properly Greek..would not fight and die for Greece or to protect its borders…. they want citizenship in an EU country to solidify themselves in Europe and the advantages that European societies offers over their own failed or distressed states of origin.
Post Disagreement: I think I know my own country well enough to comment on its ethnic background, thank you very much. Of course, I am talking about older migrations than the USA has experienced, but they are nevertheless massive and important. The original indigenous population of the UK was Celtic, which was overrun by Romans, Angles, Saxons and others. The very idea of Englishness is ridiculous, and one prime minister (Major) made a fool of humself in trying to go down that nationalist road.
Equally, the idea of Greekness is faked, but unfortunately has a lot of support. Of course, no country wants to be invaded by hordes of foreigners: Greece has not been, and all of these perceptions that it has been are the result of propaganda and lying statistics along with some issues of visibility of non-Greeks. There are some inner-city problems, but there would be other problems in those areas anyway, regardless of immigration.
The idea that I am Muslim is somewhat amusing. My heritage is predominantly Celtic, with some Anglo-Saxon, and a little Jewish (I think). I am a typical genetically mixed British, and reject the whole concept of the desirability of “racial purity”.
Oh you do, don’t you?
YET YOU TRY TO TELL US THAT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN US, THE ETHNIC BACKGROUND OF OUR COUNTRY???
Englishness is a fact and it refers to the predominantly Anglosaxon=Germanic population which “happens” to inhabit in England mostly.
No, you ignorant foreigner, you are NOT the one to decide what Greeks fake and what they don’t.
What the hell does that mean? These areas would have been quiet streets where families would take their children for a walk, HAD THEY NOT BECOME places of illegal activity by illegal immigrants.
A little Jewish? That changes everything. I thought i was talking to the mainstream english boozer. That EXPLAINS A LOT… your hatred of the Greeks.. when is the next Hanuka?
No, you are not a “typical” mixed British, “typical” British are NOT part Jewish. “Typical” British are anglosaxon, celtic, or a mix of these two. Of course you are not a fan of racial purity, you are a mongrel for fcuks sake! So is DD. It is so obvious, it is comical. All people of mixed race, become advocates of “human rights”, “equality”, “anti-racism”, etc, in order to make themselves feel at home, regarding their mixed racial origins. You just try to make yourselves feel good, feel normal. I see right through you.
Name one racist thing i said.
Don’t you? But you re already INSIDE our playground, if you live in Greece, don’t you realize that?
Typical of anti-greek hatred and jealousy. “No, there are no more Greeks left, you are all mixed, bla bla bla, bla bla bla. Typical barbarian maliciousness towards the Hellenic Nation.
What is your point?
Xenos:”The history of Greek historical migrations is very different, which led to the use of “ius soli”, or citizenship acquisition by blood.”
I think you mean “ius sanguinis”
Citizenship acquisition in Greece is hard, unfortunately…
Nemesist must be pulling the blog’s collective leg, I mean statements such as “Typical barbarian maliciousness towards the Hellenic Nation” can only be said in jest (and well, he can be quite funny in all his pretense racism).
Despite my differences with DD, i ve got to hand it to her, she did a very good critique of the PASOK 8-point plan for illegal immigration in Greece. It seems that even Africans have realized the truth about the pathetic gang of “socialist” professional thiefs of PASOK.
Hey, stoopid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_Africa_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....stribution
Yeah, guess who else is African.
Just to clear the confusion about English etc nationalities that some fellow Greeks have. “Britain” is the geographical area where the United Kingdom is located. It used to be known as “Great Britain” then got self-conscious about it and turned to UK, but its people are still known as “British”. England is one of the countries that comprise the United Kingdom- Ireland, Scotland and Wales are the others (I think the islands in the Manche are also in the UK? Not sure). So “English” is a person from England, the country, of United Kingdom, the nation.
And one more thing.
Of course. Plateia Koumoundourou, Omonoia, Peiraios, Athinas, Psyrri, Metaksourgeio, Xafteia, Plateia Vathis… those were quiet streets where families took their children for walks, until those bloody foreigners came and there went the neighbourhoods.
They were so quiet, indeed that nobody set foot there after 10 o’clock. Except whores, travesti, junkies, dealers, hustlers… all family people taking their kids for a walk.
You just haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about, have you?
Even the Africans! Wow, just when I thought you couldn’t be any more insulting and patronising, you manage to sink to a new low.
“It used to be known as “Great Britain” then got self-conscious about it and turned to UK,”
I always thought UK = Great Britain (= Scotland, England, Wales) + Northern Ireland.
Oh dear, I had a brain malfunction and wrote “ius soli” instead of “ius sanguinis”. Sorry for the mistake.
On the various confused names for the little island grouping in the north-west of Europe… Let’s try, anyway (it’s as much a mess as the naming of Greece, Ellada, Ellas, Yunanistan…)
So:
The British Isles is the geographical name for the whole group of islands, including Ireland.
The UK is the legal abbreviated name for the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. The “united” refer to the kingdoms of Scotland and England (with Wales as a principality of England for centuries). Now, there is a regional parliament for Scotland, an Assembly for Wales, and something or other (LOL) for Northern Ireland. There is no parliament for England, since Westminster is in London.
Great Britain is what the mainland used to be called when it had the British Empire (including all of Ireland); the name carried over for some time afterward.
Britain is what historians tend to call the mainland, and British journalists also love to do so contemporaneously. Nobody really knows what it means, and it seems to be a backformation from “British” — after all, it’s obvious that the British live in Britain!
The islands of Guernsey, Jersey, Sark and the Isle of Man have their own parliaments and laws, and are not part of the UK or of the European Union. They are Crown Dependencies, which means that the UK is responsible for their defence and international relations. The UK also has the right to dissolve a parliament and appoint an administrator, which was threatened a few years ago when the Isle of Man refused to obey a European Court of Human Rights ruling on the criminal offence of homosexuality. They rapidly passed a new law when that threat was made clear
)
Confused? Don’t worry, British people don’t understand any of this either!
LOL!
I also think there has been a trend towards calling Britain the “UK”. I suppose it depends what circles you were in and what papers you read but I don’t recall people saying “the UK” as regularly and commonly as they do now. When I returned after being away for so many years, it was a pronounced shift. I had NEVER heard my own family members and friends referring to the land as the “UK”. I am wondering if the move towards calling it that has anything to do with the fact that we dropped the “Great” in Great Britain. To restore some sense of pride ? There was the whole “Cool Britannia” nonsense and (it seems to me) that was when the UK was adopted again for everyday use. Just wondering…
What is wrong? Don’t you have an african origin? I didn’t call you anything else, apart from: African! You are an african, aren’t you? Do you consider the word ‘african’ an insult? Why else would you be insulted?
I simply said that, it is extraordinary that-apart from Greeks who see what has been going on in the country for generations- even Africans that live in Greece, see through the PASOK plague. I congratulated you for your insight. A thank you would have been nice you know.
Well yes, apart from the foreigners, before they came actually, there were the usual domestic garbage that made these areas dangerous at night. But a family could have a walk there in the morning. You know, you should be really carefull where you sell your trannyself at night, because one of these days, a kind and horny customer who wants to take you to a dark place to play, or to his house, may not be who he appears to be. Appearances can be deceiving. I m saying this out of interest for your safety, of course. We wouldn’t want to suddenly lose such a dedicated blog member, would we?
Sure i do.
I m talking about taking out the garbage, both the ones in material and human form. Athens must be essentially PURGED of the perverse and decadent scum that roam her streets, along with other measures, in an effort to make her a city for humans again, not the worst in the world in quality of life and pollution as research has shown.
There is no mess about the name of Greece, except in the demented little brains of mongrels like yourself. It is very simple: we call ourselves Ellas or Ellada which is the same word a bit extended. Foreigners, Europeans especially chose to call us Greece, which is a name we do not really accept. Yunanistan is the Arabian name, that Arabs call us along with Turks. And the Chinese have probably an even stranger name for us. Is it TOO COMPLICATED FOR YOU to realize that there will be differences in a word across the different human languages?
Is it?
Nemesist: you are just an old-fashioned racist bigot. Nothing else. So don’t expect to be taken seriously, when the hallmark of such people is a low level of education and low social class.
The Chinese name for Greece is Xi La, and for Greeks Xi La Ren.
That’s not how I read it and you know it. You have insulted almost everyone on this blog so why would you be surprised that people react to your comments. You have to be careful how you phrase things. People are already angry and upset with you so your careless words get picked up on. HINT: I was not reacting to the word Africans or insulted by being called African. If you need further explanation, please ask.
A thank you is nice and I always thank people for enlightened comments, interesting links, positive feedback and any number of “nice” things people say on this blog. You do not fall into that category so please don’t hold your breath for affirmation from me!
What, in the kendro? They’d take a walk to enjoy the clean air and the beautiful countryside, eh? Riiight. Like I said: not a clue. That place is the immigrants ghetto because it’s always been a ghetto, for the past 30 years, the place where everyone who ever started falling and couldn’t stop ended up. It’s the sinkhole in the center of Greece that sucks up anyone who can’t hold on to something. You could have known that if you knew the first thing about anything, but you’re just some loseroid with a slow connection and bad trolling skills stuck in the butt of the Balkans, with no life and not enough money to go get yourself some decent pr0n, have a wank in private and leave the rest of us in peace.
For the record, I’ve been stabbed a couplea times, had guns pulled at me, a guy tried to run me over once and I’ve ‘been roughed up plenty. So, you know, when people are actually dangerous as opposed to bloody twats, I can tell. From a mile away.
Bored now.
Kentro especially around Omonia, and the area between Agiou Konstantinou, Pireos and Deligiorgi (around the Zinonos terminal bus stations) was a downtrodden area since the 1990s, long before the immigration influx. Actually some of these areas are now better because they have become family zones of immigrants. Others have become worst. My mother remembers the time it was nice and that was back in the 1970s early 1980s when Greece was sending Greek immigrants out rather then receiving.
Yes, Travle, rather than deporting immigrants it would be a better idea to deport Greek criminals and thugs. We should start with the political parties, who are largely reponsible for the crime and low standards in Greece. The idea that immigrants are responsible for the mess now is so childish and ridiculous — as usual.
Well, i may be what you say i am, you may not even take me seriously. However, you DO KNOW that it is people like me that own Greece, and this is what upsets you the most. Keep telling yourself i am of low level-education and of low social class, lol.
You re kind of funny, you know. Your life experience has made you such, although your real story rises behind you in all its tragicness. A psychiatrist would make a good client out of you.
See, this is why i suggested you be careful, but you took it the wrong way, obviously. People are mean, and get meaner when you insult and threaten them. You may not be so lucky next time.
What, no customers tonight? Tell me, do you have any Pakis of Athens riding you, or does Islam fordib them to do it with transvestites? Just curious.
I wish those protesters with the signs oxi stin islamophobia would be willing to take those same signs down in karachi pakistan and protest against the treatment with signs saying no to anti-christianism..
Name one islamic country that truly respects its non-muslims minorities?
i can hear the shrill but what does that have to do with Greece.. everything if you want us to be flooded with Muslims..
when muslims are the majority fact is christians or really any non-muslim become second class citizens.
oxi to anti-hellenics who want us to become a minority in our God given homeland.
“God given homeland.”
God wished the Ottoman Empire to survive. That’s exactly what the Orthodox priests believed. What, you don’t believe that the Ottoman was God’s punishment for your sins?
Has anyone else noticed how our nationalist Greek friends (who presumably attend Church once in a blue moon and are not really Christians) are obsessed with religion? Obsessed in the sense that it makes them always right (God-given) and others are always wrong and bad people.
My family used to attend (Protestant) church twice every Sunday and usually several times a week. I never heard them talking about people of other religions as being less worthy, nor did I hear anything about things being God-given. Rather, religious belief for them meant doing the right thing, trying to be better people, and worrying about those in greater need than they were. A far cry from the abuse of religion that we see from some of the Greeks here: they remind me of the Israelis and their “Holier than Thou” attitude.
Who got lucky? One guy who stabbed me spent more time in hospital than me. The guy who tried to run me over, the cops saved him from my hands. If I ever get my hands on you (it’s a small world, you never know) you’ll spit your mother’s milk. Θα φτύσεις το γάλα της μάνας σου.
Yeah, with you. You’re just dumb and stunted, intellectually and emotionally. There’s a huge and beautiful world around you and all you want to do is keep it away from you. I’ve met plenty of people like you and they make me more sad than angry in the end. It must really suck being you.
You’ve never been to Athens. You’ve never even left your home town, have you?
Of course, it’s “Patris, Thriskeia, Oikogeneia” all around. But don’t be so proud of the nice and loving protestant people. Small-town England is full of them: they hate gays, immigrants, lone mothers, the continentals, muslims of course and just about everyone who is not exactly like them- except the royal family. Bunch of biggoted twats the lot of them and the only difference with Greek Orthodox fanatics is the way they cross themselves.
Nemesist here would fit right in with those pricks. That is, if he wasn’t one of them foreign chappies himself.
“My family used to attend (Protestant) church twice every Sunday and usually several times a week. I never heard them talking about people of other religions as being less worthy, nor did I hear anything about things being God-given”
Them Evangelists sure do so.
LOL Stassa! Well, I am not an enthusiast of religion at all, but I do think that some deeply religious people follow a moral path that is not intolerant of gay people, single mothers, other religions, etc. There is certainly some distance between them and other groups, but nothing like hatred of them. The bigots are to be found everywhere, in every religion, and every political party, etc.
Sure, there’s misanthropes in all walks of life. But Christians and Muslims seem to have more than their fair share of some particular varieties. You know how there’s a huge row about gay bishops and generally homosexuality within the Church of England. So some deeply religious folks are going to have trouble following their heart, if their Archbishop tells them gays are sinners. For example.
But anyway, religion is just institutionalised morality. Its practicioners are going to be prejudiced at some point, however hard they try to love their neighbour.
Just saw this. Greek Ambassador in Nigeria allegedly labels Nigerians as thieves.
http://www.vanguardngr.com/200.....s-thieves/
Haha, Where is malaka Scofield when he is needed?
No, seriously. Where is Scowcroft?
I think this name more accurately reflects what happen’d.
Xenos, hold on now. You ve got to clarify to us just how much percentage JEW you are, in order for us to know how infected you are. THEN, we will decice if it is worthy to keep replying to you.
Damn! How could this guy miss running you over? It can’t be that difficult. The world would have been a better place, having one less disgusting disfigured perverse piece of tranny shit. Cause that’s all you are, Stassa. I already said it’s not that difficult to get to me, so that you can try to make me “spit my mother’s milk”. Come on you worthless piece of perverted meat, come on you freak, come and meet your fate. Ξεφτιλισμένο τραβέλι, θα σου γαμήσω ότι έχεις και δεν έχεις ρε σκουπίδι… έλα ρε κοπριά, έλα θα περάσουμε καλά, ξεφτιλισμένο κομμάτι κρέας.
Cut the crap you worthless freak. I don’t care about the world, there is a nation that has rejected you, you pathetic bag of shit. I am going to prove this rejection to you when we meet. Worthless perverse demented parasite.
Nemesist, you’re so entertaining. >XD
Hey say something- your mother, does she fart in Bulgarian, or in Turkish?
Xenos,
You’re always quick to disassociate our country and culture from those pesky inferior Greeks. But you completely gloss over how ungodly we brits are, especially when compared to southern Europeans.
For example, even though most of us Brits hardly set foot in the church (apart from the odd christening) we’re always bringing up how “Britain is a Christian country” (mostly in the face of Muslim immigration to our country).
We’re always proclaiming how Britain is a “Christian country” even though most of us have never set foot in a church to worship. Especially the majority of British youth, who only visit church to drink the free mulled wine at Midnight Mass at Christmas time.
So, before you accuse others of “not being real Christians”, look at our own godless country, and then cast the first stone
As this article states, “If the Church in England was the national football team we would have sacked the manager long ago. A European social study (published in 2002) put the UK at the 4th lowest rate of Church attendance in Europe.”
http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php
54.6% church attendance in Godly Greece (third highest in Europe, after Poland and Ireland)
18.6 % church attendance Godless Britain (4th lowest in Europe).
She shares alot of views with Xenos then, they both share the notion that nationalities and ethnicities are prone to thievery, corruption, etc. Disgusting bigotry and racism by the both of them.
DD,
Maybe that’s true in your experience DD, but in my experience, I can safely say that people of colour will NEVER be truly accepted as being “proper English” among the indigenous Anglo Saxon population.
Mixed race people like you and all Asians, blacks, Greeks, Italians born in Britain are seen as “British” and nothing more…pretending that the indigenous population accepts you as equals is wishful thinking.
After all, we are probably the only nation in the world which has so many alternative and derogatory names to identify people of colour as a form of differentiation from us “whites” (darkies, half-caste, half-breeds, cross-breeds, mongrels, wogs, nig-nogs, pakis, wops, bubbles, etc) – Anglo-Saxon English are constantly trying to disassocaite themselves rather than identify themselves with people of colour.
Racially, the Anglo-Saxon population in England will never accept a person of colour as “English” in much the same way as an Iraqi or Pakistani won’t be accepted as being Greek by Greeks. Let’s not think the refusal to grant equal status to people of colour is solely a Greek phenomenon.
If a Briton of Italian origin or Greek or African origin said he was “English”, a white English person will most likely say “yeah, you’re British” – they will have a very hard time in accepting that you’re English, this label is only reserved for Anglo-Saxons.
The sad thing is, beneath the veneer of tolerance and diversity in British society, we white English will never accept people of colour as being “English”, even if they were born in England.
I’m saying what almost every white Briton believes but would never say out loud in multicultural and politically correct Britain. We will grudgingly accept non-whites as “British citizens” but people of colour will never be accepted as English because it infers that whites are on an equal footing as person of colour, and that can never happen in predominntly racist British minds.
The majority of white Anglo-Saxon Brits don’t want to equate themselves in any way to people of colour because this would take away from our feelings of superiority over the “darkies”, so we cannot accept you as “English”. “British” is as far as we’re prepared to concede.
The indigenous English family will never accept “darkies” as being equal to them because we believe only whites can truly be English.
Despite what people will say to you in public DD, in my experience, behind closed doors and amongst themselves, the majority of Anglo Saxons from all corners of England think in this way.
The majority of English still believe in the adage:
“British by birth, English by the grace of God”
i.e. the majority of Anglo-Saxon English perceive that we are superior to everyone else including other brits not to mention “darkies” from third world countries (darkest africa, greasy greeks, Sweaty Spaniards, Dirty Wops I-ties etc). We believe that our superiority over all these people has been bestowed upon us by God.
So, in essence, we Brits are no different than Greeks when it comes to accepting who is proper English or properly Greek, so let’s not pretend we are any more accepting of people of colour than Greeks.
Saggat,
Of course they don’t. This kind of stereotyope only exists in the mind of bigots and people who think they are generally superior to other nationalities.
We English have BIG problems accepting darker outsiders as being fellow English”. Even though they are born here, children of immigrants will never be accepted as being “English” by the majority of white English society, the most we are prepared to grant them is a British identity, they can never be “English”. Even with a british identity, studies have shown that people of colour are still discrimiated against because of their colour regardless of their British status (Macpherson Report). The label of “Englishness” is reserved only for whites because it has connotations of superiority of Anglo-Saxons and they will not accept people of colour to be associated with it. Sad but true.
Xenos,
The only person having problems with their out-ofdate conceptions are bigots like you. Your ethnic stereotyping reside firmly in the Middle Ages.
There is only one person who needs drop the racism.. we all know who that is…
Your hatred of greece is truly saddening. You somehow perceive that southern European people have not evolved and their culture is inherently inferior and primitive – there can be no greater example of racism than your inability to find ONE redeeming feature of a culture that you live and work amongst. There can be no greater example of your bigotry than that.
Anyone who doubts that you have an obssessive and hysterical hatred of Greeks has only to take a gander at this thread:
http://deviousdiva.com/2009/06/19/open-thread-8/
You couldn’t even write ONE positive thing about Greeks and their culture. That says it all.
Tell us one more time how “respected” you are in Greece and how you “know Greece” and how “every educated Greek agrees” with you. …we’ve heard it all before….you’re just a miserable Brit who’s gone abroad and thinks he can civilise the natives and then patronise them on blogs such as this…Get over yourself.
Post Disagreement,
You’ll find that this is the unfortunate hypocrisy among us Brits – we “holier-than-thou” Brits and sanctimonious Americans often like to bring attention to what we perceive as inferior southern European culture (and inferior Mexican culture for Americans) while ignoring the fact that we have exactly the same social problems in our own countries – we do this because we like to elevate ourselves higher than the average southern European peasant (to use Xenos’s vernacular).
We like to think that we exist in a higher moral plane than the backward Greek, Portuguese, Mexican, Chicano, Wop, Greaseball etc. We cannot accept that we share the same human characterisitcs as these perceived inferior people. We don’t like to admit that our own societies and communities are just as racist, just as xenophobic, just as homophobic, as other cultures. (In fact, our British history and contemporary attitudes to race are far worse than any southern Europe attitudes).
We like to stroke our egos by implying some kind of superiority over the southern European “peasants”. We Brits especially like to boost our self-confiedence by denigrating others, especially by implying that poor southern European countries shouldn’t even be in Europe.
In fact, we want to get out of Europe because we want to disassociate ourselves from what we poerceive as inferior nationalities – it’s the delusional British superiority complex.
We constantly want to disassociate ourselves from those we feel are inherently inferior. That’s why you get Brits like Xenos saying he’s Anglo Saxon and implying some kind of superiorty and great knowledge over the Greek people. In fact, he likes to assert his British superiority constantly on this blog, implying inherent Greek culture flaws are to blame for most of the problems in Greece, when in fact, the problems for any country and are far more complex than that.
You see, Brits like Xenos constantly draw attention to the failings of “inferior southern Europeans” while ignoring our own cultural backwardness and moral deficiencies – Brits like me and DD (and probably Xenos, though he’s loathe to admit it) we know that southern European culture has much more going for it than our own “broken Britain” culture, that’s why we flock to southern European countries such as Greece to live out our lives and dreams but on the whole, Brits are not prepared to admit it – we like to live the dream and enjoy what a superior culture has to offer but we cannot bring ourselves to admit that it is a superior culture in many ways (you noticed how Xenos couldn’t bring himself to say one thing he admires or likes about the Greek culture) – it’s much easier for us Brits to bash the southern European “peasant” culture while living and enjoying the same “peasant” culture! We criticise the culture and love it at the same time! We Brits are masters of hypocrisy.
In actual fact, we Brits know that southern culture is more conducive to bringing up a family and enjoying an excellent quality of life among the wonderfully warm and hospitable people of Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal etc rather than endure the hell that Britain has become.
Statistics show that over 2 million Brits have upped sticks and moved abroad, we Brits are faliing over ourselves to come to Gorgeous Greece, Incredible Italy and Sumptous Spain. We can’t wait to get away from dreary, miserable and inhospitable UK with it’s culture of inner city gangs, knife culture, drinking culture, highest teenage pregnancy in Europe, institutionalised racism in our Church, Schools, Police Force, Armed Forces, racist attacks on immigrants, racist attacks against “Gypsy” communities, Islamophobia, paki-bashing, gay-bashing, the rise of fascism, rising BNP popularity, ethnically-segregated communites, MP expenses scandals, high taxes, etc etc
Let’s face it, given the chance, the Brits who have choices in life would move to southern Europe in a heartbeat. We’re leaving “broken Britain” in our droves to enjoy the culture of southern Europe, so whatever criticisms we have of southern Europe, we obviously find it a much more hospitable and friendlier and more accepting place to live than our own countries.
In fact, we live in southern Euope because we realise that the UK is much more fragmented and broken than any southern European country.
Scowcroft, back from his psychiatric treatment, writes insults about me and other British people, whilst pretending that Greece is not going through a very bad period of racism and physical assaults on immigrants. My non-friend, you are completely off your head.
Xenos,
I never said that – you always put words in my mouth so you can deliver your nonsensical arguments to things i never said.
I believe that Greece and it’s people are no more prone to committing physical assaults or being xenophobic towards immigrants than any other country (i gave you examples of when Brits attacked Romaninan immigrants to counter balance your rather one-sided views).
You, on the other hand, seem to believe that Greeks are pre-disposed to being xenophobic, prone to corruption and generally having a “peasant mentality”. You couldn’t be more offensive if you tried.
Scowcroft: you have consistently underplayed the problems of xenophobia and racism in Greece (in a country where you don’t live or know anything about!!) while going on and on about how racist the UK is. You have no grip on reality. Furthermore, you find statements of fact — such as the peasant culture of Greece — to be unacceptable and “racist”. This is yet another indicator of your mental condition.
Xenophobe,
No. EVERYONE on this blog finds those kind of comments unacceptable. This is a human rights blog, alot of us campaign against this sort of language and bigotry so don’t be surprised when people find this language unacceptable. That sort of talk goes down well on sited like Stormfront, not a human rights blog.
No. I called you a racist and a bigot. Your comments are unacceptable, offensive, stereotypical and insulting generalisations.
Yes, Greece is following Italy because there is a distinct lack of a Europe-wide legislation to share the burden of immigrantion. Silvio Berlusconi vowed to crack down on illegal immigrants because of the demands and the DEMOCRATIC WILL of the people and said that those involved in crime were part of an “army of evil.”
Berlusconi said Italy would cooperate with its neighbors in “deporting non-EU citizens who are here and do not have work or home and are forced into crime in order to live.”
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/arti.....41,00.html
I think you’re attacking the symptom rather than the cause. It’s obvious that something drastic needs to be done to alleviate the pressure felt by Mediterranean countries which are bearing the brunt of the immigration that our country (and the USA) is largely responsible for. If we don’t address the source of the problem, let’s not be surprised when individual countries try to address the symptom by enacting their own harsh laws.
There are some real pressure points in the Mediterranean. Spain, Italy and Greece are struggling to manage large flows of illegal immigrants from developing countries
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor.....667169.stm
Instead of criticising countries who cannot bear this level of immigration, we should be demanding that these countries get extra help (which was the focus of the Global Post article) as well as addressing the causes of why people want to flee their countries in such large numbers in such a short period of time.
We should be protesting against our country and the USA gallavanting around the world causing wars and destabilising countries and causing the mass exodus of people fleeing our bombs and missiles that we are paying for (as tax payers) .. Secondly, we should be a little more sympathetic to the problems faced by countries such as Italy, Spain, Greece and Malta who do not have the infrastrutcure to cope with the mass influx.
Greece is reacting in the same way as other European countries who are suffering similar problems:
Maltese Interior Minister Tonio Borg called on his European Union counterparts to help his country deal with a wave of illegal migrants trying to reach Europe.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/arti.....05,00.html
Malta fires at EU ‘immigration policy’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlzpJiCKPeI
These countries aren’t xenophobic by nature, they are struggling to cope with immigration. There is a massive difference and i only wished people like Xenophobe realised this.
In fact, the only political party which has wished ill on immigrants is our own BNP, a proudly british party, as mentioned by stassa, so before we start ponting our fingers at foreign politicans attitude to immigrants, we should flag up our own racist political parties who we elected into the European Parliament. As far as I know, no Greek fascist/racist party has been given a mandate in europe by the Greek electorate, whereas we Brits have.
Let’s not attack the symptom, let’s attack and address the source of the problem and simultaneously help the poorer European nations instead on criticising them in condescending ways.
It seems that a lot of comments on this blog are not constructive at all – there is no comparative analysis or criticism of problems faced by all of Europe and especially the poorer countries of Europe – there was an interesting article by Global Post which highlighted a European-wide problem but the focus of many people on this blog was more on asserting blame on the southern European governments rather than acknowledging the pressure felt by these frontline countries.
Greece is being singled out in an unfair and unsympathetic way, as if Greeks or Italians are genetically prone to being xenophobic or abusive towards immigrants. i.e comments on Greece’s illegal deportation illicit responses such as “I can’t believe this is happening in a European country, Greece should not be in EU”, and sadly, these comments are not only coming from the usual bigotted contributors such as Xenos.
By all means highlight the issues but for the sake of fairness, recognise the complex problems in terms of the real pressures felt by frontline immigration countries – and don’t assert that these countries are necessarily xenophobic by nature. Only racists and bigots think in such simple terms.
Illegal deportation is a fact of life in almost every country including Britain but it effects poorer frontline countries more than any other. We don’t even acknowledge that such a problem exists in the UK. The hypocrisy is astounding.
Successive investigations have revealed systematic, racist abuse.
http://www.noii.org.uk/
Malaka Vretane: you don’t know anything about the immigration situation in Greece, you don’t know anything about Greeks and racism, and you know fuck all about anything else either. Get some more medical treatment.
^Somehow, i don’t think that’s a compliment
Obviously, I hit a nerve. You have no argument, so you resort to personal attacks and abusive language. You did the same with Stassa and god knows how many others. (The funny thing is, you are the first to call out people to be banned for personal attacks but you don’t seem to fussed about attacking others..typical hypocrite).
It’s funny how you say I don’t know anything about this and that but i have substantiated my opinion with facts and links to websites which support my point of view, whereas as all you have provided is offensive diatribes based on your hatred of the Greek people.
I know southern European culture very well and i know the kind of sanctimonious Brits like you who live in southern European countries and abuse the locals. You think you exist of a higher moral plane than the inferior southern European greaseballs and that you can civilise the natives by offering them the gems of your British wisdom. Do you really believe that you’re helping anyone by saying Greek culture makes greeks likely to be “homophobic” and Greek people are “peasants”? You seem to forget that this is a human rights blog and most people reading this blog do not approve of that sort of offensive stereotyping and insulting language.
You constantly make condescending and offensive remarks about the Greek culture and it’s people but you offer nothing constructive to address the real and complex problems faced by people in Greece (you claim to be a scientist but you offer no science). Saying “Greeks are peasants” is not scientific and will not help anyone nor will it help us understand or alleviate a particular problem in Greece. Don’t you realise that?
You are as much use in here as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.
Ask for a stronger medication.
I bet you do get entertained by men being abusive and insulting towards you. This is your status, that of a “human” sick in the soul and sick in the body. Listen Stassa, you need to stop waving around the shit of your soul in the internet, but then again that’s all you CAN do, isn’t it? You know it, that i am a straight male citizen of Greece, i represent Greece. You, are of the scum that live and lurk in the shadows, your perversity has made you a freak that hides from people and from society.
Well, dear english-speaking blog members, we can see that the sad sad freak of nature “Stassa” (his real name is Baggelis), now resorts to insults towards my mother. This is the result of a sick life, and of society’s life-long rejection.
How about your own mother then “Stassa”? I bet your parents have killed themselves knowing what you have become? An aggressive anti-hellenic transexual prostitute, the lowest form of life in the Athens-wasteland. Even the Pakistani illegal immigrants of Athens deserve more respect than you do! Yes, i say that in full consciousness.
Άκου να δεις Βάγγο, όποτε θέλεις να έρθεις στη Θεσσαλονίκη να τα πούμε, σε περιμένω. Όταν σου γαμήσω και τη μανούλα και της ανοίξω δεύτερη κωλοτρυπίδα, τότε θα κλάνει σίγουρα “ελληνικά”. Οκ ξεφτιλισμένο σκυλί; Ουστ γαμώ την ψυχή σου σίχαμα… έκτρωμα της φύσης.
Yo my man, is this HOW THEY REFER TO YOU IN GREECE? ΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑ
You need to watch out in the summer, don’t get too far in the sea, many people drown each year.
Tsk tsk, Nemesist. When did I insult your mother? Bodily functions are not a shame! Everybody farts. And people of different countries fart in different languages, because they have different-shaped arseholes. Its a scientific fact.
In your mother’s case, her arsehole is your shape, obviously. So whatever language her arse speaks it must be with an accent. Amirite? I know I’m right!