UPDATE:
Two farmers from the Peloponnesian town of Nea Manolada, alleged to have tied two Bangladeshi immigrants to a motorcycle last Thursday and to have dragged them through a central square, were yesterday released on bail of 3,000 euros each. The two suspects, who are alleged to have assaulted the migrants in order to punish them for a suspected theft, were released after testifying before an investigating magistrate, on the condition that they report to local police twice a month. The migrants were also released and barred from leaving the country.
Please note that the locals who saw this horrible incident intervened and called the police.
Farmers held for cruel attack on immigrants
Two farmers from Nea Manolada, a small town in the Peloponnesian prefecture of Ileia, faced a prosecutor yesterday after allegedly tying two Bangladeshi immigrants to the back of a motorcycle on Thursday and dragging them through a central square in a bid to punish them for a suspected theft.
According to locals, who called police on witnessing the scene, the two suspects beat up the farm laborers after suspecting them of stealing sheep and goats from them. They are then alleged to have tied the migrants to the back of a motorcycle and driven through the square. Some locals intervened to stop the brutal spectacle and the migrants reportedly emerged with minor injuries. Speaking to Skai yesterday, Antonis Seretis, mayor of nearby Vouprasia, described the assault as “unacceptable and reproachable” but stressed that it was an “isolated incident.”
Also, an article about the incident in Greek
Technorati Tags: greece, immigration, migrants, abuse,
Citizenship Battles on February 17th, 2010
Being Greek on February 10th, 2010
Laos Against Citizenship on January 25th, 2010
The Immigration Debate on January 22nd, 2010
Lack of Humanity on November 2nd, 2009
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Η λύση είναι μία, σύνορα στην Κορινθία! *laugh*
Nice blog you have here. Condemning racism and giving voice to the voiceless, in all the cliched glory of these phrases, is admirable.
Ελπίζω να μη σε ενοχλεί που σε ρωτάω, και φυσικά μπορείς να μην απαντήσεις, αλλά ποια είναι η καταγωγή σου; Αν είσαι “ξένη”, έχεις κάποια ποστ με τη γενική σου γνώμη για την Ελλάδα καθώς και τις συγκυρίες του ερχομού σου; Ευχαριστώ προκαταβολικά.
@ObladiOblada
I am originally from England and although I don’t have a specific post about the circumstances surrounding why I’m here, there are several posts that I think give you some ideas as to my personal opinions about Greece.
Please see here under Important Posts
I believe there is only one single conclusion we can safely come to about this incident.
They will not STEAL again!
See this is a great example of why generalizations are bad. Two of the people of the village acted like animals and “peasants” but most did not and stood up to them. It is sad that such barbarism has seeped into some Greeks but it is heartening that most people in this case did the decent thing.
Nemesist: If they stole them. Innocent until proven guilty you know. Both the Greek and English articles do not say that they stile them. Indeed the poor sod they were torturing wasn’t even under suspicion but just used as bait. They have been charged but not proven guilty. This isn’t a medieval country yet where you are guilty until proven innocent.
Generally I am very suspicious when herders claim there animals were stolen. My dad grew up in a animal herding household, and I still have family that do this. The usual story is that when somebody loses an animal he/she has an incentive to declare it stolen since he/she can get government compensation. A lot of animals that were lost to natural causes are claimed ot had been stolen before the 90s by other herders, and after the 90s by immigrants. I am not saying that people don’t steal animals. They do. Both Greeks and immigrants. But I am saying that most cases are actually attempts to get goverment handouts.
On another vein, a Greek journalist has been arrested by the mullah junta in Iran
http://www.in.gr/news/article......gDtrID=244
Just noting it.
@ Nemesist
What a heartless and despicable comment! Even if they did steal, we have to condemn this (as Travlos Konstantinos suggests) medieval action by the farmers. Or are you ok with people becoming vigilantes and handing out their own “justice” as they see fit. I am pretty sure you would not say what you said had it been two Greeks being abused by two foreigners on suspicion of stealing.
What a disgrace. Here’s hoping those farmers get a judge who comes down on them like a ton of bricks.
Btw, I found a blog a week or so ago through your Roma posts, and it’s been…well, ‘enjoyable’ isn’t really the right term due to the subject matter, but certainly very informative. I live in a section of Athens with a high emigrant population, and I’ve been definitely disappointed by some of the attitudes I’ve encountered (nobody with a potentially violent attitude, but just little snide comments that have been raising my blood pressure, especially since people seem to casually share them with me expecting me to agree-the hell?).
Anyway, keep the great posts coming, I’ll definitely be watching!
DD,
I seem to remember reading some older posts about why you chose Greece as opposed to England to raise a family etc…There was a thread about it post from some years back, here it is i found it:
I can’t say i blame you for choosing Greece, DD. Unless you’re financially secure, Britain is a sh*thole. At least in southern Europe, you have friendly people who would invite you to eat with them if you were skint or put you up for the night if you were without shelter. Southern Europeans are by and large, warm and wonderfully hospitable people.
In Britain, you’d probably get a door slammed in your face if you knocked on your neighbour’s door asking for a bit of help (especially if you’re black or Asian). Let’s not even mention the “knife culture” where almost every British kid thinks he’s an “original gangster” with something to prove to his mates – certainly not a place to bring up a child.
Like you, I’d choose the hospitable and child-friendly culture of Greece (or any other southern European country) to bring up a family rather than the poor state education system and increasingly dangerous gang-culture of the UK.
SORRY Michael. I edited your comment to remove some details that I would rather not share anymore. Too many threatening people out there and I don’t want to make it any easier for them to find me !
@Michael Scowcroft
Wow ! I can’t believe you found that ! Thank you.
They obviously DID. The herders watched them one night, they just couldn’t catch them at the time. Well, they caught them eventually.
Sure, that goes for society’s members that obey the law, pay their fcuking taxes, pay their social security, carry an ID, vote, respect their community. That means NOT for illegal immigrants.
Who cares what the English one says re Travle? Are you joking me, we re talking about Greece here. If you want to, you can go ahead and locate Stassa and have some quality fun you two on the British Isle. Otherwise, it is Greek issues we should discuss here.
You are right.
Wow, TRAVLOS, the great hope of Greece. Way to go, claiming that all Greek herders or most of them are thiefs that PRETEND to lose their animals, in order to be compensated by the state! I haven’t heard about this practice before re Travle. Maybe your family members do it, or did it, but it is the first time i hear of this. And if our state was so reliable to compensate every lost or claimed lost animal, thousands of animals would be “lost” each year. Listen Travle, animal theft of the kind you speak, that is executed by other herdsmen may occur in parts of Crete, you know that. And if it does, it will be of at least hundreds of animals. You know of many Greek herdsmen that would risk going to jail for a couple of animals, like this case?
NO Darling, not that easy, you will NOT portray me again as the “bad guy” here. What would you people do if you couldn’t find any enemies, you’d have to invent ones, wouldn’t you??
Of course they STOLE animals from the farmers. Dont underestimate the perceptive capabilities of a mainstream greek farmer. The action is of course condemned, but it can surely be EXPLAINED. Do not use words that do not suit the occasion darling. “Medieval” means “Western European”. We didn’t have Holy Inquisition and horrible torture machines like the ones you saw in the London ‘museums’ here in Greece. It was the Byzantine era here for us.
In your usual tone, you urge your readers to “please note”. Note what? That locals did not approve of brutal behaviour. Of course, as usual the WAY you express it, means something like “please note, dear reader, that although normally, these Greeks would join in and lynch the two thiefs, at THIS PARTICULAR one time, they surprisingly intervened and called the police. So please note that, and don’t come to your usual conclusions about these third-world fascist Greeks”. Nice, thanks again.
I don’t have a problem with that. If someone enters my house to steal from me, i will surely injure him. If he threatens my life, i will take his, if i can. That’s the way it goes, when the law is not near to protect you. If for example, a gypsy (“Roma”), enters my house in the night and i hear him, he is as good as dead. I m not like the helpless old ladies these filthy beasts spot, stalk, break in their houses, rape or beat them to death and of course steal any money these poor lonely souls may have. That’s why they won’t come to my house.. (too bad).
The point is, simple as always. These immigrants who illegally entered and lived on these villagers’ lands, are poor, they are hungry. They stole animals, probably to eat them! But, the Greek farmers are also poor folks. This is not Switzerland. So, since people in rural areas are in every country more brute in a way, they decided to punish these thiefs, to make an example for other immigrant thiefs as well. I don’t admit this is the best choice they could make, but i say that i can understand their anger.
Now wait a minute, what does that mean? You are talking about two Greeks abused by foreigners for stealing, in GREECE? I don’t think that would be possible. You obviously refer to two Greeks that live abroad. I would not be happy if i heard such a thing, but stealing is stealing. If it happens in a foreign country, so much for the worse, for the thief.
But you see, things are not that simple. Let’s take an Aphgan for example. He is an immigrant in Britain. He knows that Britain has taken a part in the destruction of his country and of his family/home. He is illegal in Britain. SHould he have respect for this country? Obviously NOT. If he steals in Britain, it’s ok by me, the British owe him, in a way. If the same person, illegally comes to Greece, should he respect this country? Of course he should. Should he steal? Of course not, we haven’t done anything to him, or in any way caused his forcefull migration. If he simply doesn’t like Greece for being a European country, he is an enemy anyways. This is my simple logic.
But the best thing to do would be to stay in his damn country and struggle for his life. You see, if Greece was completely destroyed for some reason, (don’t get your hopes up anti-greeks, it’s never going to happen again), i would go to a village or to the mountain and grow tomatoes, and live by that. I have the dignity and SELF-RESPECT to be willing to do that illegally migrate to some foreign country to be some foreigners slave. Get it? This is ANOTHER reason why illegal immigrants don’t really deserve much respect. They fled instead of fighting for what is theirs.
Well, what do you know… more words of truth from Mr Scowcroft, and we learn a little bit more about you, DD. So, you chose to bring up your child in Greece, didn’t you. AND become a ’soldier’ for human rights, racism, bla, bla, bla.
Ooh, what’s the matter? London has become a bit “tense”, right? Brixton not a good enough place to raise a child? You see Honey, i ve lived in London too, and the things that DAILY happen there make Greece appear as a kindergarden’s playground. So, London is just “tense”, while Greece is where all these awful, AWFUL things happen, that you describe in this blog. Seems to me you should first have made a blog about London and it’s inherent criminal element that strikes fear to the hearts of its inhabitants. Post some of these blacks at King’s Cross station for example that may physically attack you at broad daylight, IF they are not trying to sell drugs to you. These are people you are also related to racially, aren’t they. But instead of judging those who FORCED you to leave a country for another, or those who are racially related to you, you JUDGE the people of another country, where you found a safe place to live and where the people that live here, you don’t really know anything about. How “democratic” of you.
*be willing to do that, THAN illegally migrate to some foreign country
Hwy Nemesist grand to see ya.
“Sure, that goes for society’s members that obey the law, pay their fcuking taxes, pay their social security, carry an ID, vote, respect their community. That means NOT for illegal immigrants.”
Nope man, it is a human right recongnised by both the Greek Constitution, the Greek State and most civilized states, not a civil right. Illegal immigrants are guilty of the crime of illegal entry, but for all other crimes you have to prove it. Otherwise why not just commit a crime and throw on an illegal who is automatically guilty of it.
“Wow, TRAVLOS, the great hope of Greece. Way to go, claiming that all Greek herders or most of them are thiefs that PRETEND to lose their animals, in order to be compensated by the state!”
Ok correct most to many. There is an incentive to do this, and it comes from the compensatory politics of CAP. Because CAP will not compensate over-production, but it will compensate theft or destruction, there is an incentive to play such ploys. And farmers in all of Europe, NOT JUST GREEKS, do it. So it is not about inherent love for stealing, but rational economic gain. As you say I do not condone but understand. And on numbers it makes more sense to do this with the surplus production rather then with large numbers that a) can get the authorities suspicious b)actually cost the herder.
“In your usual tone, you urge your readers to “please note”. Note what? ”
Or maybe this was directed to Xenos who might jump to portray this as proof of Greek “peasant mentality”. I am not saying he would do it, but DD knows him longer and takes appropriate measures in her writing.
“If someone enters my house to steal from me, i will surely injure him. If he threatens my life, i will take his, if i can. That’s the way it goes, when the law is not near to protect you. If for example, a gypsy (”Roma”), enters my house in the night and i hear him, he is as good as dead.”
This is self-defense which is quite legitimate. My grandfather has done this and it was in accordance with the law.
What these guys did is instead of going to the police and asking for investigation they decided to play it KuKuxKlan, and do their own “investigations”. Let me put it simply, it is like someone broke in your house and stole something and instead of reporting to the police you go and start beating your neighbor, or the homeless guy down the street to tell you who did it, or abducting a guy and saying that if the perpetrators don’t come out you will torture him. Now please tell me how is this self-defense? It’s not, it is like the good old KuKluxKlan in the South US. A white woman was raped and automatically they would lynch a black guy who they suspected, no trial no police (if the police wasn’t helping them). Or there is war with Germany , something is stolen and automatically they will lynch a person with a German name.
“So, since people in rural areas are in every country more brute in a way, they decided to punish these thiefs, to make an example for other immigrant thiefs as well.”
So the fact that only two guys of the whole village did this, and the rest of the villagers put a stop to it, makes people in rural areas more brutal. Here is an alternative. The two guys who did this are psychologically unstable, while the rest of the village is normal human beings. Let us see which holds more : two guys did it, most villagers stopped it-> villagers brutal or two guys did it, most villagers stopped it-> two guys have psychological problems. I let you decide eh?
“Let’s take an Aphgan for example. He is an immigrant in Britain. He knows that Britain has taken a part in the destruction of his country and of his family/home. He is illegal in Britain. SHould he have respect for this country? Obviously NOT. If he steals in Britain, it’s ok by me, the British owe him, in a way. If the same person, illegally comes to Greece, should he respect this country? Of course he should. Should he steal? Of course not, we haven’t done anything to him,”
Nah, if we follow every good nationalists mantra that history is the most important thing, and that it determines life even today, then the Afghan actually should be ok to steal, since he would be getting back for Alexander’s Afghan campaign. Eh? Makes sense. Or is it just recent history?
“Do not use words that do not suit the occasion darling. “Medieval” means “Western European”. We didn’t have Holy Inquisition and horrible torture machines like the ones you saw in the London ‘museums’ here in Greece. It was the Byzantine era here for us.”
Actually the Greco-Roman period ended in 1204 with the sacking of Constantinople by the 4th Crusade. After that feudalism was the norm for both Greek and non-Greek realms in the Balkans and Asia Minor.
As for the Byzantine era it had the religious persecutions of the Monophysites, Nestorians, Arians, Bogomils and the Economachia. We didn’t get an Inquisition because in the Orthodox tradition the Emperor was the head of the church. No point in creating a parallel ecclesiastical authority when the state did the same job. Furthermore while Byzantium did not create sophisticated torture machines it did a) blind as a form of punishment (Belisarius got that, as wel as the 7000 Bulgars), b) behead, c) castrate, d)boil alive (done to the babies of marauding Turkic tribes during the Asia Minor wars) e) tear apart by lynching f) thrown to animals (in the early empire). So while it was in ways during it’s heady more “civilised” then some of the western states (the Italian cities followed the Roman system like Byzantium, while the Norman Sicilian Kingdom was renowned for it’s fair and civilized law system), it was by no way not cruel.
Look I actually don’t see the problem here. They shouldn’t had done that whether they had a legitimate reason or not. You agree with this from what you wrote. Many illegal actions can have moral excuse. But that doesn’t make legal, and they still should be castigated and punished, otherwise you are quickly going to end up like Northern Albania where clan blood law, and vigilante justice rules supreme. Not that nice eh? If the illegal migrants committed the crime they should be punished and deported. But so should the guys be punished for a) taking the law in their hands and b) employing workers without proper documentation, I am sure to avoid tax evasion.
And to go further on the vigilante issue. How do you think the KKK started. In the beginning it actually was a defensive organization of poor white ex-confederate soldiers against northern carpet-baggers and their thugs (white or black). But it quickly became a terrorist organization. That is the problem of vigilante justice. Sooner or later the society that practices it will become a nasty-unjust place. You have to obey the law whether you think it is fair or not.
That is up to the courts to decide not the farmers. They could have watched them and called the police.
No. The right to a fair trial is for everyone.
I posted two articles covering the same issue. Readers who do not read Greek (including many “hyphenated” Greeks abroad) are interested in what goes on here in Greece. just because something is written in English about Greece, does that make it irrelevant to the issues we are discussing? If that’s the case, why do read my blog and why do you care so passionately about it?
I do not feel the need to portray you as the bad guy. You do a great job all by yourself. You were the one that wrote the comment and I found it “heartless and despicable”. And please don’t call me “darling”.
If they stole the animals it should be proven in court. If the farmers are so sure it was them, they should have no fear of going through the proper channels to seek justice. As for the medieval comment, you know exactly what I mean.
Once again, you misinterpret what I write (deliberately I think). You know as well as I do that I am accused by a vocal few on this blog of being negative towards ALL Greeks and accusing ALL Greeks of racism etc. Perhaps clumsily, I wanted to point out that the article stresses that this was the action of the two farmers NOT the locals of this village. I shouldn’t have to explain that to you. I know that you know it.
Well, I do have a problem with vigilantism. As Tavlos so eloquently points out in his comments:
It is more than likely that they were illegally “employed” too. Just because people are poor, it does not follow that they are incapable of seeing the wrongness of their actions. The other people did and they were likely to be as poor (or poorer)as the farmers themselves. They were able to see the brutality of vigilantes and put a stop to it.
Ah yes, of course… Greeks don’t steal from foreigners here in Greece! How could that be ?! Do you live here, Nemesist ? Obviously not.
Very SIMPLE logic, I would say. How can you have a justice system based on who owes what to who. How far back are you going to take that “logic” ? Does it include rape, murder, abuse, torture ?
My logic is that people living in a country have to obey the laws of that country. If they disagree with those laws, there are peaceful ways of bringing about change. This happens ALL the time across the globe. Laws are changed through due process by ordinary people and lawmakers. It is possible to change outdated or unfair laws but this must be done in the proper fashion.
Sorry but you wouldn’t get very far in feeding your family with a patch of tomatoes in the mountain
Your simplistic view of what happens when your country is destroyed is quite offensive actually. How can you even imagine what situations people are facing when their country is REALLY being destroyed? How can we imagine that terror and fear that causes people to flee their homeland? People rarely leave their place of birth with nothing and risk life and limb to get to another country for trivial reasons.
It is obvious that you have no respect for anyone who does not follow your “logic”, let alone immigrants who have suffered more than you can imagine and are simply trying to survive.
I agree with you for once!
That’s not what happened. My child was born here. He’s thirteen now and I started this blog four years ago! Your timeline is a bit off ! I did not decide to become a “soldier” for human rights and racism. I have always been involved in these areas but this blog started as just that… a blog where I began to write about the issues I cared about. I never imagined that it would have the success it has had but I am happy that I have been part of the network (and it’s not just us ex-pats) who are talking about human rights in Greece.
Yes, London is a tense place for me (wonder why you imagine that I lived in Brixton? Hmmm). I also do not compare Greece to England. I have stated over and over again that many of the problems I talk about in Greece occur everywhere in Europe. And you would be unable to find a single sentance from me on this blog that says London is a bit tense but Greece is bl*&#y awful. NOWHERE.
I left London fifteen years ago. I don’t think people had blogs then
and anyway, I didn’t have a computer or even know how to use one! The “blacks who are racially related to me” had NO part in my decision to move here whatsoever. The crime rate in England is absolutely shocking to me (and frightening). Crime committed by people of any colour. Your implication that the crime problem in England is somehow mostly to do with black people is deeply troubling.
I am blessed to be here. I have said that many times.My child is growing up in a place with a relatively low crime rate, in a child-friendly environment, in a neighbourhood where we are accepted (by the majority) and loved by our neighbours, where we can walk the streets in relative safety, where I can still buy fresh food and under-consume the trappings of modern life. Where we don’t feel the pressure to be up-to-date or “beat the Jones”. Where I can enjoy all the benefits of an outdoor lifestyle. Where I can soak up some essential sunshine.
I have lived here for fifteen years. I have a wide circle of friends (both Greek and foreign). I pay my taxes, contribute to this society and obey the law. I have learned and am learning all I can about Greece. Language (not gifted in that department
but I try very hard), culture and history. I have never pretended to know it all and have often said “I don’t know” (for which, again, I am belittled and humiliated).
I give you space on this blog to make your comments (including your rudeness towards me personally). Let’s get off the subject off me and my motives and discuss the issues. I know…I have extended the “DD and her evil plan” discussion by writing this long comment but I did want to answer your long comment.
And please, don’t call me darling !
@Ishtar and ObladiOblada
Thank you for taking the time to comment and welcome to my blog!
Nemesist seriously you don’t have any relatives that had to emigrate in the 50s and 60s to escape crushing poverty? And believe me that was nothing compared to what happens in War torn places like Afghanistan (whose situation by the way was bad since 1970, and not new, what changed is that the U.S invasion broke the travel bans created by the Taleban)or in Africa.
Grow Tomatoes in a garden? Nemesist you are smart enough to know that isn’t that simple. You know let us do a thought exercise using stories a friend of mine that works for the UN Refugee Relief organizations has told me.
Let us say you are Sudanese Christian. The Darfur region has broken down. There is no law or order. You take your family and go to a remote region to grow tomatoes. You also have a gun. At some point a patrol from one of the armies shows up (let us say Muslim militia). You scare it off. Great you feel good for yourself. Next day they come in numbers. You fight but are overpowered. For challenging their “authority” they take your produce, burn your hut. Then the real horror starts. If you have a daughter they make a point of raping her in front of you, and then taking her with them as a prostitute. If you have a son they may do the same, or just take him to become a child soldier. They do the same to your wife. They probably mutilate you as well as a warning to other would be resisters. If they don’t kill you, they leave you at the smoking ruin of your sanctuary. But let us say you are a extra tough guy. You start again over. They come again. And you start again, and they come again. And again . and again, and again. When do you leave tough guy? When they cut of your limbs? When they rape you?
Nemesist if you weren’t Greek I would had been sure that you are a right wing NRA American conservative as you spit forth the same foolish ideas they do. Here is a good book for you since you agree with them so much
http://www.amazon.com/Ted-Whit.....1596985550
He holds the same views on guns, vigilante justice and immigrants.
Look some people are tough guys. The majority of humanity is not. I agree with you that if you can do something to help your country then you shouldn’t leave. But most immigrants are poor, uneducated or poorly educated, with no power or voice in their home countries. And to say they should do something about it misses some important facts.
Popular uprisings only happen where communal ties are strong (As in the German peasant revolts of the 16th century or the Communal Wars of the Italian cities against the Holy Roman Emperor {by the way Rutger Howard is playing Barbarossa in a new Italian movie about the communal wars-AWESOME go and check it out, I do think you will like it Nemesist, since we both kinda seem as history freaks). In most of these countries communal ties have been shattered by chronic civil war, government inefficiency or famine. In this cases to get a movement you first need a charismatic leader. You know this guys and gals don’t come around that often.
Nemesist, I’m in Greece for the summer. I wouldn’t mind spending some quality time with your kolaraki. You’re welcome to come looking for me in Kavalas avenue. Many kisses.
Some food for thought:
http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=48542
Travle, are you some kind of greek-american liberal? Why would you believe i am interested in the history of rednecks or of anything of the sort? I already told you that i am here to discuss issues of Greek interest. Are you somehow trying to be “friendly” to me? Even with your level of pperceptual ability, you must have realized i consider your views idiotic and some of them harmful and TRAITOROUS to Greek interests. Apart from the following comments i don’t think we have anything more to discuss with each other in the future.
That’s what i said, isn’t it? It was directed to the usual anti-greek audience of this blog, including of course the suspicious anti-hellenic propagandist known as ‘Xenos’.
Well, you can try this ‘logic’, when you adress an audience of the asylum for the mentally retarded. Ok? I did not write ‘brutal’ in a negative manner. I meant, more straightforward, more physical, more “raw” in their behaviour.
Oh, how “clever” of you to describe it that way. You forget to mention that there are people in Afghanistan today that remember Alexander as the one who civilised them. Not as an enemy. Are you sure there will be such people in 2500 years from now there, that will say the same about what the british(and americans) are doing there now? If the answer is yes, only then would your pathetic argument make any sense. Go ahead and find out, i will be waiting for the result..
Now thats a real crime, isnt it! So, tell me Travle, what should Greek employers do?
NOT give any kind of jobs to immigrants and just let them starve to death?
Adopt them and let them live in their house with their family? Go ahead and do that, and i ll follow. Come on you great “humanitarian”..
Illegal immigrants are ILLEGALY in Greece. Their employers cannot pay for their social security etc even if they wanted to, because they would found to be illegaly in Greece and be deported! You grasp this or is it too hard for you?
Right, well maybe they re also reading your blog, so who knows maybe they ll take your suggestions under consideration.
I read it because i like to be informed about what is said and written about my property, my backyard if you will, which is Greece. That’s what a thoughtfull owner does. I don’t know what you mean by “care so passionately about it”, i do care to confront those that offend my property, physical or cultural or national one.
Oh, i forgot you are also a feminist, right? I should have reffered to you as “ungendered fellow human being”, correct?
And i know that YOU know it that your foreign readers would surely come to the conclusion that i described, because that’s the kind of readers your blog attracts.
Oh yes, how “eloquent” Travlos is… the sickening hypocrite Travlos, is preaching to ME about the LAW, when all i say is that ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who BREAK THE LAW in the first place should be deported! The law is the law and we should OBEY it always no matter if we think it is fair or not, RIGHT TRAVLE? SO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS APPROACHING THE COASTS OF GREECE SHOULD BE EITHER SHOT ON THE SPOT BEFORE THEY BREAK THE LAW AND ENTER OUR BORDERS OR THEIR BOATS SUNK, but the second choice would still break THE LAW because their dead bodies would be probably washed out on the Greek shore, passing the borders and thus BREAKING THE LAW. You do agree with Travle, eh?
Obviously you don’t know where i live. It is possible for Greeks to steal for foreigners that they secretly employ here in Greece, because there is not kind of control of this labour. ANOTHER negative fact caused by undeclared labour, which is CAUSED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Thanks for proving me RIGHT once again.
Well, i wouldn’t expect you to understand, it’s more of a male thing. A woman would not have the physical strength to cause her a thinking of that kind.
I would get a pig or a lamb from time to time, dont you worry.
What is OFFENSIVE is, as i noted before, your continuous megative judgement of a country and its people who you know nothing about, cannot understand at any level, have no racial or cultural relation to and who have provided you and your family with a safe and humane environment to live for 15 years.
My grandparents lived in a destroyed country, in war and famine. Through a most destructive civil war. And you have the nerve to tell me that i don’t have any clue what these immigrants go through?
No you DONT. Check again, i was just quoting Mr Scowcroft.
Human rights of Greeks, are the rights that should be discussed in this country.
Because you re black?
Yes, of course it is troubling. These blacks think it is ok to bother you and to turn violent for no apparent reason. Real troubling if you ask me. But you re right, the Pakis are not much better, especially when they re in groups. The white English, have their share too, but they mostly express their criminality when drunk, so it is managable to avoid their drinking gathering places. It is not that simple when it comes to the other two aforementioned racial groups.
Yet all you keep posting about about is those “oppressed Roma” and those “racist incidents”.
Right
Yes, you did start allowing my messages to appear at some point. You can always change that of course. There are certain limits to how much democracy each self-proclaimed democratic person can stand.
Oh its Stassa again!! Our resident transgendered person. This has to be one of the most ridiculous “threats” i ve ever received! lol
How exactly are you going to ‘perform’, “honey”, since you are a castrated transgendered ..being? Sorry, i m afraid you ll have to play with the other “girlfriends” of your like again..
By the way, what kind of swimshuit do you wear? I m really curious. A swim-shorts and bikini?
Well if the law says they have to be deported they have to be deported. Go read my posts again. I never said that illegal immigrants should be permitted to break the law, I have said the law should change to be fairer and minimize the amount of illegal immigration. You know, in democracy laws change.
I did not write ‘brutal’ in a negative manner. I meant, more straightforward, more physical, more “raw” in their behavior.
brutal doesn’t mean these traits. It means physically violent. So use the right words for what you wish to mean. Not my fault if you don’t.
“You forget to mention that there are people in Afghanistan today that remember Alexander as the one who civilised them.”
Sources? If you mean the Kalash they are not in Afghanistan. THey are in the borders between Afghanistan and Pakistan. And they are a tiny minority. Most Afghans don’t give fig about Alexander. They have their own heroes. Also Afghanis had several thousand years of exposure to Persian, Harrapan Aryan and Classical Indian culture, before Alexander reached them. And if you read Arrian you will see that his Afghan campaign was the most brutal.
-NOT give any kind of jobs to immigrants and just let them starve to death?
Adopt them and let them live in their house with their family? Go ahead and do that, and i ll follow. Come on you great “humanitarian”..
If they are humanitarian they can vote a party that will make fairer immigration laws. They don’t need to break the law, and the immigrants will not starve. THey will be deported.
“SO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS APPROACHING THE COASTS OF GREECE SHOULD BE EITHER SHOT ON THE SPOT BEFORE THEY BREAK THE LAW AND ENTER OUR BORDERS OR THEIR BOATS SUNK,”
No, they can be arrested and deported. And humanitarian people can agitate,campaign and push for meaningful immigration reform. Democracy remember, laws can change. No need to blow up or sink people. Obeying the law doesn’t mean being inhuman. And if the law is inhuman it should be changed by democratic means.
“My grandparents lived in a destroyed country, in war and famine. Through a most destructive civil war. And you have the nerve to tell me that i don’t have any clue what these immigrants go through?”
Yes, THEY lived. Like mine did. NOT YOU.
“Yet all you keep posting about about is those “oppressed Roma” and those “racist incidents”.”
Why, they don’t happen?
“There are certain limits to how much democracy each self-proclaimed democratic person can stand.”
I agree. Democracy should not tolerate those who will overthrow it.
So long Edmund (my new name for you since you do seem to follow Edmind Burke in the theory that political differences should be accompanied by hatred).
Nemesist, like I said, come and ask for me in Kavalas. Or stop speaking and start clucking.
All of this hypocritical crap about law is about a country where the politicians, companies and swathes of the Greek population routinely break every law they can. Furthermore, one has only to look at a handful of the recent ECHR cases that Greece has lost, to see that Europe’s leading judges consider the Greek legal system to be incapable of adequately protecting basic human rights.
For the information of all of you legally ignorant blabbermouths, immigrants (including undocumented ones) have legal rights. The fact that there are so many undocumented immigrants here is basically because there has never been any serious attempt to recruit legal immigrants, partly because Greeks want illegal immigrants for their cheap and vulnerable labour, and partly because the politicians know that the racism and xenophobia of Greeks would not support having legal immigration.
You reap what you sow, folks. Quit whining.
Stassa, I think your amorous advances should be directed towards Xenos. If anyone needs a good Greek rogering, it’s him.
Xenos, after years of shafting Greeks on this blog, you might just get a good shafting yourself.
You reap what you sow, Xen
I suggest you find a good psychiatrist, little English pousth. You have nothing to say.
If anyone needs a good Greek rogering, it’s him.
A yes, the world-famous “Greek style”. We Greeks discovered homosexuality after all (I know ’cause a Brit told me. True story).
And you think that’s not a stereotype there, eh?
Besides, Scowcroft, my “advances” on Nemesist address his comment about me and Travlos “spending some quality time together” (earlier in this thread). Being the homophobic dickwad he is he thinks he can use my sexuality as a weapon, against Travlos’ dignity. And now you’re doing the same. Like him, you must think it’s something horrible to happen to someone, to be “shafted” by the likes of me. Of course, what Nemesist will get in the arse if he dares show his face where I work is a good kicking. I don’t use sex as a weapon. That’s the prerogative of sexist dickheads like Nemesist- and you apparently.
Not that I’m surprised, or even offended anymore at this point in life, but will you kindly not drag me into your little dikwaving contests with Xenos or whomever you project your own prejudice on, in the future? Thank you so much.
@ Nemesist
I’m not going to answer all your points because much of it was quite confused. Just want to respond to a few of your more extreme words.
It’s a shame because I think you have something to learn from your fellow Greek.
No. That’s not what you said or implied. You suggested that I was being divisive (as usual) and that I was putting down Greeks in general.
What is SO wrong about pointing out that SOME Greeks behave badly and use situations for their own advantage. This is a common trait and not restricted to Greece. Illegal immigration happens regardless of employment opportunities (because of war, famine, poverty and persecution) You imply that Greeks have no choice and that they are being kind because they employ immigrants without documents. No. If they wish to employ ANYONE, it should be legally and properly. With contracts and papers and insurance. And not use the fact that they are vulnerable to their own ends.
lol. You seriously don’t think I’m that stupid?
Well, I beg to disagree. I think you do care passionately about my blog because some of the things that are written here make you think. If it’s just confrontation then why bother. I’m just a blogger not a politician. Perhaps your time would be better spent somewhere else (in the political arena?) if you really care about the things you say you care about?
I am a feminist but I have NO problem with my friends calling me “darling”. I have a problem with you doing it because you don’t know me, you use the phrase in a derogatory way and in the end, I have a right to ask you to stop calling me “darling”. Sorry. Makes my skin crawl when you do it!
Not sure what you mean?
No, I don’t know where you live but as the cliche goes “what planet do you live on?” You think that Greeks only steal from foreigners because of some sad conspiracy theory not because some Greeks are criminals? I have no idea why you think I proved you right!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Good luck with that! lol
Oh I think I did! You just want to deny the fact that we could perhaps see eye to eye on something!
Human Rights for all in Greece is what we are discussing.
Obviously you don’t live in London either. Black people live all over the place not just in Brixton. I used to go to Brixton once in a while, for the chic restaurants!
Ugh! So whites just get drunk and then they mug, rape and kill people? But black people are inherently violent and awful ? AND seriously, do you still say “Pakis?”. You really don’t live on the same planet as I do.
.
Yes I do because I may be blessed but others are not. Don’t YOU care about those less fortunate than yourself?
Right!
Yes I did! And there are limits but I really believe that you care enough about my opinion that I think it’s worth the effort trying to answer you and perhaps finding some common ground. Maybe it’s an exercise in futility but I think it’s worth the effort because you keep responding. Perhaps one day you can have respect for me in the same way as I have respected you (and others who have opinions different to mine)
but then again, now you’re just being silly and offensive.
Well, it appears that we cannot come to an agreement.
I have to note, that after all this fruitless discussion, there is only one point that everybody here agrees to: it is the simple point i made in my first answer to this post, the only thing for sure is that those immigrants WONT STEAL AGAIN!
Travle, you are persistent, what exactly are you trying to prove? And you didn’t answer me, are you a greek-american or not? If you are, then it would make my opinion of you even more negative, dear american.
Just to point out that what you said is the ultimate state of hypocrisy. You are a believer in totalitarianism. Democracy is all about majority. So if a social majority are nazis, then it is the democratic thing for that society to become Nazi-like.
Democracy supposedly tolerates EVERYONE, remember that Travle? Even those who would overthrow it, that’s what makes it so “democratic”. What a dillema for the poor little capitalist-democrats. It’s not a problem for me, since i don’t believe in it. You can’t argue about that Travle, one more argument you lost. Now go read about the hardships of the Sudanese and the Mao-Mao folks and leave Greece alone. Bye bye.
Kavala’s? What the hell, why would you think i would familiar be familiar with
all the filthy roads and alleys you “people” “work”? I ve never heard of that, i m in Chalkidiki right now, you can come visit me any time, i m just not sure if the circus is in town yet.
Stassa, you are a mockery of a woman, yet you threaten me? How do you hope to complete your threat, if you are castrated? Strap-on? Don’t you realize how funny you sound? You know very well that “people” like you, don’t even want to get near people like me, so i guess the internet is a place you can fantasize. You know it would be unthinkable to challenge me in real life. You are only excused because you are sadly a sick soul living in a tormented unholy body. Repent! Hahahaha
Xenos! Yo my man, how you doing? Taking breaks from boozing down at Faliraki, to read the latest posts on the blog? Alright!
You are VERY RIGHT. Greeks break the laws! You speak the honest truth.
This is the reason only a dictatorship will make this country work at our present times. We are not ready for democracy yet, it is the sad truth. Not after only 200 years of semi-independence. It is the only solution.
Not in Greece they don’t! LoL!
You re not being fair. We just don’t want them to be muslim or dark-skinned (ok, or slannty eyed). [or English]
So will the illegal immigrants!!! It’s coming!
Edmund I have answered this very question for you in the past. But again let me tell you again: I have grown up in Greece, lived there for 23 years, gone to pre-school, kindergarden, elementary school, junior high, high school, university and the army. So yes I am Greek. Is that clarified?
“If you are, then it would make my opinion of you even more negative, dear american.”
Not weird for an Edmund.
“I ve never heard of that”
i.e you have never gone to Athens (kinda hard to miss one of the main thoroughfares of the city)
“Democracy is all about majority.”
No, nope. Democracy is about checks and balances, and respect of human rights. A ephemeral majority has no right to overthrow constitutional laws. Otherwise it has 0 difference with authoritarianism. The majority argument is made by Fascists and Communists who between them have killed more then enough people. So you and the majoritarians are the real totalitarians. Simply put we have different views of democracy. Although to be fair yours should be called oxlokratia as per Aristotle. And while you don’t take actions in the name of your ideas, I got no problem for you to speak them.
Nemesist, Kavala’s is Kavala’s avenue in Athens. Of course you know it and you’re just a big chicken (kota, kotoula) and you pretend to be in Chalkidiki and can’t come and find me.
But just for the sake of conversation: where in Chalkidiki?
I travel a lot.
Nemesist: i agree that modern Greek democracy has failed, at least in recent times. However, I do not agree that dictatorship is needed: this is a third world solution and Greece can do better. Actually, what is needed are political parties that reflect the needs and interests of Greek society, rather than their own personal greed. It would also be a good idea to set a minimum IQ level for cabinet ministers — although that won’t solve the problem of corruption and nepotism.
For the record, I drink around the same amount as the average Greek, I don’t know where Faliraki is, and I rely on Greek sources for my information. I should also say — despite the malakies that certain bretanoi write here — that my views on Greece are closer to those of the Greek population than to those of foreigners…
I wonder, why havent you ever discussed the actual REASONS that drive these people to illegal immigration? It is because you are in DEFENSE of those nations and powers that have made the Third World a “Third World”! It is because you actively protect the hypocritical political correctness these powers have created to cover up their crimes against the planet. That’s who you are, DD..
(lol!)
Confrontation is struggle. Life is struggle. Haven’t you got any clue about the nationalist ideology? War is the Father of all things.. the King of all..
So you don’t consider me a Greek gentleman?
What is so funny?
No, seriously. I was JUST quoting Mr Scowcroft, i dint WRITE that text.
That is, of course, ridiculous. It is a sovereign nation we re talking about, not a charity event.
I dont. I said i VE LIVED there in the past.
Yeap, unfortunately.
You mean the KFC’s?
I am not analysing the crime statistics according to race. All i discussed was what a person may run to, on the streets. Organized crime is another issue which goes to the highest levels of governments. I was discussing the things that an innocent and unsuspicious and irrelevant person may come across in London and in the UK. And of course i stick to what i already said in the previous message.
You got to say something to separate them from the Hindus.
I do. I m just a huma of different race, ethnicity, tongue, religion, mentality, etc..
Sometimes, if i think they deserve it.
Right, no matter what you say now, the blog’s title is still “THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY”. Did you forget that honey? And of course it practically WILL never be your country, since you are of a different race and ethnicity, but at least if it FELT like it was your country, to you, you would discuss the GOOD PARTS of it. So spare me you fake words of respect and love for this country, you dont really have none.
I admit that was a bit touching.
No, the word Democracy in our times refers to the way the government is elected and re-elected, which is by the majority. Even schoolchildren know that, damn Travle.
The ephemeral majorities overthrow whole governments Travle. Governments that alter the constitution the way they please, WITHOUT checking with the people or even the majority, when they do so. THIS IS your democracy, you cretin!
Of course it doesn’t. Todays parliamentary democracies of the West are masked totalitarian capitalist-globalist corporations.
What the hell are you talking about? I believe in the excellence of the Chosen few, of the Aristoi, who will try to elevate a whole nation to their steps. I don’t believe in the plebeian majorities. Dont get confused.
Oh, you think so??? Finally, you got, you rocket scientist Travle. Democracies OF OUR TIMES are the front covers of mafia-like television-ruled capitalist super-market countries.
Yeah, its where democracy leads to, in its ancient form. TODAY’S form is another issue as i described above.
Everything in its time Travle. The day will come….
I already said, you pseudo-female persistent joke, that i don’t know where it is. Probably because I AM NOT FROM ATHENS, I DONT LIVE THERE. Get it now “baby”?
I AM in Chalkidiki. Have you forgoten that Greece extends outside Athens?? So what do you want me to do, leave Chalkidiki to come to the concrete hell of Athens in the middle of the summer for a transexual? I would hardly do that for a REAL woman!
Sithonia. Deytero Podi.
Listen Stassa, you stupid unclassified gender-wise person: it seems you got a thing for me, alright, i can understand why you are attracted to vibrant young men like me. I have already given you a chance, asking if you are castrated or not. If you ARE, maybe i ll think about filling your other end, to satisfy you and maybe reduce your psychic pain. But you dont answer me. That’s not my fault.
Third world solution? Are you joking? You know very well that the worst dictatorships today are the ones of the strongest western nations. Of course, they are masked as “democracies” and they “spread” democracy (their rule) around the globe. Don’t talk to me like you would to a retard, because i happen not to be one. Greece can do better, of course, but in the present times only fear of punishment can FORCE Greeks to obey ALL the laws ALL the time, and eventually lead to an organised country.
The primary “needs and interests” of Greek society are the ones that the tv’s brainwash people to have. Meaning, the consumerist products and lifestyle of much richer and much more stable and organised western countries. Which make Greeks eventually greedy and their political parties the same. A return to national ideals and identity and common national goals will save us from the comsumerist storm that has come from abroad and altered Greek living.
It’s not a bad idea. We seem to agree on certain issues after all, compadre. Most importantly i would suggest a minimum IQ for the right to VOTE, pre-excluding of course foreigners, immigrants, non-working populations, etc., from that right.
Oooh, i see. And where do you live then, what do you do here for a living?
I do have my doubts on that.
“Damn Travle”
Yes, yes recourse to curses Edmund!
“Everything in its time Travle. The day will come….”
I don’t seek civil war, but if it come it comes. And as it happened it will happen again. Your ilk has never, NEVER won a battle against the forces of modernism. So let it come. We will give you your apotheosis in fire, just like your spiritual leader.
Sorry, Travlo: it’s not my reading of Ottoman history. I think, given the choice, I would much prefer to have been one of the Ottoman Romoi than a peasant in Britain or most continental countries. The bad period starts, and ends, with the emergence of the Greek nationalist movement for independence: you could hardly expect the Empire to accept its own breakup without a fight.
Not my reading.
1st) During the Ottoman rule the economic situation of mainland Greek areas deteriorated, although those of the islands had a better situation (most of them coming into Ottoman rule later, or having special rights). The heavy taxation is an unmistakable fact, and follows similar practice by Aurangzeb in Mughal India (taxation as a incentive to change ones religion). And at least in the 15th and early 16th century Greeks did suffer the dervisme (in the 16th century and 17th century it hit Serbs and Bulgars primarily, the last effective Dervisme was in 1648. The last unsuccessful in `1703 and it caused a rebellion and slaughter at Naoussa)
2nd) You forget the persecutions of Selim I, as well as the more intolerant policy of Sultans after the 17th century, with enforcement of specific clothing for Christians and some prohibitions.
3rd) Greece faced the burnt of the Ottoman-Venetian wars. It was devastated by both armies.
4th) You make a mistake. Dissolution of Ottoman authority started long before a Greek nationalist movement. The SUltan had a hard time ruling his pashas at least since after 2nd VIenna. Indeed the movement gained the support it did by common people and local lords exactly because of the complete failure of the Ottoman central government to effectively rule. The Janissaries in Serbia, Ali Pasha, Mehmet Ali, and other local rulers had large freedom to be rapacious as central authority was broken. In due time is it weird that people started looking for efficient government outside a failed and increasingly greedy and incompetent central authority.
The only difference between a continental peasant and a romios peasant was that the first had a 1 in 100 chance of getting conscripted. Both suffered from rapacious or arbitrary rule. But the Greeks also were financially punished for their faith (And sometimes under some Sultans in other ways as well).
It ends with the Greek nationalist movement? Really? Then what happened in Bulgaria? Armenia? Crete? Incidents?
The Ottoman period is a lot more complicated then presented. But simplistic stories on both sides of the spectrum (all bad, all good) are foolish and wrong.
vibrant young men like me
I honestly can’t tell if that was told in jest, or you really think of yourself that way.
Ah, whatever. I’d really love to find you and give you a gero xeri ksylo, but you got me there. I wouldn’t travel all the way to Bulgaria just to kick a little chicken around. Lucky you.
How do you say “kota leirati” in Bulgarian, btw? Bougatsa me kota or something?
Travlo: you know full well that interpretations of history vary according to the story-teller. I don’t dispute all of your story above, but enough to cast doubt on the relative hardships of Greeks as opposed to peasantry elsewhere. The narrative of Greek suffering is couched within the nationalist movement, and not at all convincing to my mind. Nor do I accept that the Ottomans wished to convert Christians to Islam en masse: far from it, they were seen as very useful for raising raxes!
Xenos
But that is not valid. You can’t compare unique historical circumstances and say people A had it better then people B. Where does it stop? The Holocaust? pah, nothing compared to what happened to the millions the Mongols raped, burned alive and killed. The situation of American Indians? Pah what is that compared to the destruction of the Ainu?
Comparisons are insidious when used to nullify the historical experiences of a people, by saying you had it great! Stop whining! Do you tell a person who just lost a loved one to an accident, to be happy since the guy next door lost his loved one to murder? I think not.
Now this doesn’t mean that historical reality can be used as a excuse for actions or inaction, or as a demand for preferential treatment. Well I guess for a far-right nationalist yes, but not for me. What happened in the past happened in the past, and you are judged by your actions today then by the actions of people thousands of years ago. But alas humans are not like that, are they. And Greeks are not the only ones doing this sport:)
“Nor do I accept that the Ottomans wished to convert Christians to Islam en masse: far from it, they were seen as very useful for raising taxes!”
Most Sultans did not, some like Selim did. And it was different depending on area and era. Just look it up. Don’t read Greek or Turkish sources, read others if you want. Also those kinds of taxes tended to kill economic prosperity. Most Mughal emperors (all in all a more enlightened bunch) tended to avoid them. Ottomans did not. To be fair such taxes were not just a Muslim policy. They were also used against Jews by Western Christians, against Christians by Pagans, by Pagans against Christians, by Hindus against Muslims and etc. Anyway to make money eh?
Stassa
While understand that you have a big bone to content with Edmund (who doesn’t on this blog)
Please do not call Greek Macedonia Bulgaria. I actually have family from Katerini and it hurts, when Southrons do so.
Sorry Travlos. But obviously I don’t mean you- you’re a good Northerner. When I say “Bulgarian” I mean the arshole Northerners, same as when you say “poustis” you mean the bad homosexuals, not the good ones.
Nemesist obviously is a total komitatzis. You know the kind- they scream louder than everyone about how “Greek” they are when in reality they’re nothing but damned Slavonic dregs. Or Turks maybe.
Maybe but you do understand if someone was actually Bulgarian a Turk he would be offended by the way you are using their nationality. Just call him good old individual names, if you need to.
“Civil war”? Now you show your true face, always traitorous, always ready to turn against other Greeks. Who said anything about civil war re Travlo? So as it happened it will happen again? Only an enemy of the Greek people would so lightly speak of civil war, hear me traitor? And by the way, maybe you haven’t heard the news, but YOUR KIND have lost in the last civil war in Greece, which they CAUSED. I don’t have any spiritual leaders by the way, you unevolved pseudo-humanitarian monkey.
Well, yes, obviously.
I m not sure what you mean Xene. The movement for independence was led by the ideas of the French Revolution which led to the formation of national states in Europe. And you SURELY are aware of the fact that it was the big european powers of the time that had pre-arranged the break up of the Ottoman Empire (powers like BRITAIN), encouraging and helping national movements.
Possibly TOO compicated for a non-greek to comprehend.
Reply Stassa says:
You re welcome to try ANYTIME, you pathetic creature!
Alright, no more jokes. I promise you that if we meet i am gonna cut your non-working little shrimp (if you still have one between your legs) and make you eat it raw.
I ll tell you when we meet, if you still have a head and two ears to listen, you worthless anti-hellenic perverted piece of meat. Ok?
Travlo, you re a joke. Yes, keep on discussing the sufferings of the Ainu and the Amerindians, you great humanitarian. Just leave us GREEKS alone! Damn cretin.
Eimaste kai kontoxorianoi re karagkiozi Travle? Ts ts..
But when we say “traveli” we mean ALL disgusting creatures like you.
Well, it seems our resident ANTI-RACIST transexual creature, has something against Slavs and Turks. What happened to your equality preaching and words of humanitarianism, “Stassa” (Baggeli)?
Re kseftilismeno patsabouri, kopse tis apeiles kai tis malakitses sou me mena giati tha to metanoioseis sto telos, eipame einai to internet kai o kathenas poulaei tin trelitsa tou alla den einai kai akatorthoto na se bro. T’ akous re kseftilismeni yparksi?
Who say’s I’m “ANTI-RACIST”? I’m 100% racist against the progeny of Slav and Turkish agents like you. Your parents where only sent here by the communist or fascist government of your nation to spy on us and destroy our communities. Obviously, the only reason they stayed behind is that nobody likes traitors.
If it wasn’t for bloody foreigners like you, infesting the pure blood of the glorious race of Greece, I wouldn’t have to be here and read your drivel. Your behaviour is clearly barbaric, anti-Greek, counter to everything that the enlightened Greek spirit has taught the world. It’s so obvious you’re even less Greek than Xenos, or even that poor wretch Scowcroft. You’re less Greek than the “Pakis” that you like to bash so much. Hell, you’re less Greek than my shoes and they were made in China.
As about your pathetic excuse of a threat, I told you where I am. I’m easy to find. Just ask. Of course I know fascist little shits like you only come in packs, and wearing hoods.
I cater to all tastes, mind.
Please, I know what I’m doing. No Turks or Bulgarians where hurt while making this flame.
Except for Nemesist. Obviously.
Edmund
How should I take your comment “Everything in its time Travle. The day will come….” in response to my comment “And while you don’t take actions in the name of your ideas, I got no problem for you to speak them.”
Especially from a person that revels in physical violence as you have either said clearly or hinted at. After words what is left? And you think I will just stay put while you impose your “ethnosotiria” dictatorship which you have said that you will (fear of death is the only thing that will make the people,,comment). Sorry and forgive me if I have misinterpreted your political inclinations? Please do explain what will happen with the day will come, and I will happily apologize here on this blog for my reference to a civil war.
And yes we are kontoxorianoi, unfortunately so is Liakopoulos.
As for the civil war, sorry mate I don’t support dictatorships left or right. The Commies got what they deserved, a pity that due to their actions a lot of bastards deserving death for collaboration during the Axis occupation got the off the hook and they continue haunting this country with their Nazi drivel.
Look Edmund, you hate me, consider me a traitor, and would probably kill me if you had the chance. I don’t considered you a traitor, just blind to the reality of your ideas. You love this country and agonize over it but the ideas you put forward would destroy it. I can see the harm and good mine have done in the world, and balance them to make a decision, or attempt to fix the problems. Your obviously can only do good. So you are blind in my book. And I am a traitor in yours. So let us leave it at that.
Alright you “brave” trans creature, we ll take it from here then.
So if i understand correctly, your pathetic case of sickness is that your feminist subhuman grandmother turned a boy into a transgendered whore creature. How pathetic…. if you didn’t try the threats and the insults i would just feel sorry for you, like all the rest of the world does. But not now, after the things you wrote..
I’ll tell you what’ ll happen. Tha ksypnisei o Marmaromenos Vasilias, tha paroume piso tin Poli kai meta…
???
PROFIT!!!!
Nem:
Yaaaawnzzzzzzzzz….*
Konstantine, why do you think there’ll be a new junta, or a civil war? You know Greeks, we’re good at barking, but when it comes to biting… The Civil War happenned at the tail end of WWII, and all the events that followed it, up to the invasion of Cyprus they were all in that era. Today we’re in a different world, the Cold War is over, we’re part of the EU, even the Americans are starting to realise guns don’t solve problems. I’m worried about the rise of fascism in Europe (you know, Italy, Austria, the UK etc) but it’s going to take a lot to convince today’s Greeks to put their arses on the line and welcome a military dicatorship.
Much as Xenos will protest, Greece is not a banania anymore.
Er. We just have a bad habbit of voting in our past leaders’ grandsons, that’s all. But even that works for stability and against the collapse of the politevma.
Xenos,
What does “little English pousth” mean? – i had a Greek Cypriot friend who said “pushtee” as slang for “poofter” (derogatory). Are you being homophobic?
Racist, bigotted, homophobe. Not good characteristics, Xen.
Not to mention a filthy Jew! REALLY bad characteristics if you ask me!
Nemesist – sod off. Xenos is a despicably offensive individual but compared to your racist drivel he’s a saint. While I despise the guys’ guts you’re the type of lowlife that belongs to prison keeping company to Periandros. The most pathetic part about Greek anti-semitism (or Greek anti-jew feelings – to keep all those that correctly point out that Arabs are semites as well, disregarding the fact that the word “antisemite” has had an established meaning for a very long time now) is that most of the people that espouse it do so on an entirely theoretical level based on banal hearsay and conspiracy theories: They have not met, much less interacted for any protracted amount of time, with a single Jewish person. There are few of them that have (and become antisemites because it was not a good experience). Them, including some of my relatives, I can understand although I publicly disagree with them. The rest are entirely inexcusable in their bigotry.
Travle, don’t bother with history lessons on Xenos – he’s on record on this blog that the first independent Greek state included Thessaly! and when confronted he tried to weasel out of it when in fact the context of what he said did not support any “slip of the tongue”.
All you have to do is read up on the MMO’s reports on immigration and Greece he’s authored and realize his German ethnocentric type of understanding of the Greek nation which makes him complain about 30-40% of Greeks in 1932 being “Albanians” (speaking of the Arvanites – the number is too high anyway according to contemporary sources like Finlay) and claim that Greece shipped Greeks to Turkey in the population exchange (meaning the Greek speaking Vaalades of Western Macedonia and the equally Greek speaking “Turkocretans”. I will assume that his reading of Kotromilidis has not really been that illuminating as he is incapable of understanding how Romiosini and the “Genos” morphed into the modern Greek nation and how in that context to consider the aforementioned groups as Greeks is ludicrous.
Oath: you area boring little worm who persists in personal attacks. Granted, you have some understanding of Greek hastory (which itself is remarkable for a Greek) but it is a very arrogant and pedantic interpretation which claims a monopoly of “truth” that is simply not sustainable. That you choose to disagree with me about “Greekness” is no great surprise. That you choose to express it in arrogant and offensive personal terms is also no great surprise either, as I have previously alluded to in referring to Greek peasant culture as an important explanatory variable.
Basically, you are an arrogant peasant who uses his education to bolster his self-importance rather than search for explanations and wisdom. This is why modern Greeks can never replicate the achievements of Aristotle, Plato et al. Your acheievements are confined to mocking others and promoting your own ego.
“Granted, you have some understanding of Greek hastory”
Judging by your comments in Oath’s links, you have none.
“This is why modern Greeks can never replicate the achievements of Aristotle, Plato et al.”
We don’t give a f@k about Plato and Aristotle. Κίχου βρε σου λέω.
Xenos,
^This, coming from a person who called a woman (stassa) an “arrogant prick” and told her to “f*ck herself”. Stop whining about personal attacks when you’re guilty of the foulest and most offensive insults on this blog. Your hypocrisy is staggerring.
That is the most ridiculous and unscientific statement i’ve ever read in here! “Peasant culture” is an “important explanatory variable”? What the hell are you talking about?
There you go again, calling southern European people “peasants”. You are a disgusting bigot who has transformed this blog into a hate-site. I wonder how long DD will put up with such blatantly offensive language (no to mention you’re foul and abusive language towards individual members in here). Imagine a child was doing a school project on immigration or human rights in Greece and came across this blog. Imagine him/her reading your foul and abusive language “fuck u, arrogant prick, fuck off,” etc. Just have a little bit of respect and refrain from using such language.
Who on this earth can replicate the great pioneers and thinkers of Ancient Greece?!!! Ancient Greece is the foundatiuon on which modern Western culture is built.
You’re being disingenuous again, attempting to show modern Greeks in a bad light by comparing them to a culture which marked a golden age of enlightenment, discovery and is revered and respected by all modern cultures.
When compared to the great minds and thinkers of ancient Greece, WE ALL HAVE AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX
it’s not only the modern Greeks who can never replicate the achievements of ancient Greece.
Can you imagine our own British chavs and their uneducated, drinking, buffoon-culture being compared to the ancient Greek culture? Hahaha.
At least the majority of modern southern europeans can hold a decent conversation about politics or the books they’ve read and they don’t need to get tanked-up on booze to have a good time when going out.
Let’s not talk about “peasant” or “inferior” cultures shall we? We Brits lag well behind in that regard. In fact, we’re often trying to emulate the “continental culture”, not the other way round.
Ask for stronger medication. It is important to have some grip on reality.
There is no cure for your jealousy of the Greeks and their wonderful culture