I am very happy to announce that Gazmend Kapllani’s book “Μικρό ημερολόγιο συνόρων” has been translated into English under the title “A Short Border Handbook” (translated by Anne-Marie Stanton-Ife)
A review by Maya Jaggi appeared in the Independent on Friday
Last weekend I stumbled across a far-right rally in Thessaloniki, Greece’s second city. The signature cadences of an aspiring fascist demagogue, and the small crowd’s robotic chants, were unmistakable even before I caught sight of the capo sawing the air at the waterfront under a statue of Alexander the Great. The dark-uniformed neo-Nazis then paraded their Greek flags through town in the run-up to this Sunday’s European elections, flinging about leaflets stamped with a swastika-like Hellenic emblem and urging that “illegal immigrants” be sent home.
Gazmend Kapllani, a prominent Greek journalist born in Albania, believes it was supporters of the same neo-Nazi group, Chrysi Avyi or Golden Dawn, who tried to beat him up two weeks ago at a public reading of this memoir. It was held in Aghios Panteleimonas, effectively a migrant ghetto in central Athens named after the “saint of charity for all”. At Thessaloniki’s book fair, Kapllani told me that he had taken refuge in a nearby house for several hours while some 20 neo-Nazis rampaged – unhindered by police – terrorising children in a playground, then blogging that they had cleared the district of “scum” like him. Earlier, an Orthodox priest was attacked for distributing food, and his church firebombed.
Anne-Marie Stanton-Ife’s translation of A Short Border Handbook could not be timelier. Born in 1967, Kapllani entered Greece with many Albanians in 1991, six years after the dictator Enver Hoxha died, and soon after the gates of the prison-state were opened. Kapllani, who had taught himself Italian and French for a clandestine window on the world, worked as a builder, cook and kiosk-attendant in Athens while learning Greek and English, studying philosophy and earning a doctorate. Now a columnist for Ta Nea, Greece’s largest-circulation left-wing newspaper, he is one of the few to have “made it”. Yet he feels a “mixture of deliverance and perplexity”, a symptom of what he terms “border syndrome”.
Read the full review here and then go and buy the book.
The timing is perfect.
Gazmend Kapllani blog (in Greek)
Technorati Tags: greece, albania, gazmend, kapllani, border, immigration, migration
Hate Graffiti 2 on October 9th, 2006
Hate Graffiti on October 4th, 2006
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Nazis that terrifying children and innocent people are usually people that need psychotherapy, special doctor treatment and some serious medicine therapy.
For sure, their ideas and tactics are not liked in Greece. Be sure that everyone feels just uncomfortable only the sight of them.
However in all countries there are ultra-nationalists.
I believe is unfair to mark all Greece as a fascist nation since nobody of us is proud of these people.
After all, Greeks have a great sense of democracy.
I also don’t think anyone made that case but it is a concern I’ve seen before. By pointing out “a few bad eggs” people seem to think that that means everyone. My problem is that a “few bad eggs” tend to multiply…
Democracy a few thousand years ago does not excuse the present move towards fascism. And please don’t tell me I’m exaggerating.. It’s happening whether you choose to see it or not.
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I’d like to say that many things are happening around us. The question is what we are able or what we want to see.
Nationalism is a term as old as the term “Nation”. We must not see nationalism as a source of pure evil. Fascism however, I am sure you agree, is a sick ideology and yes, it’s a source of pure evil.
Fascism as an idea, needs two things to exist: bad education and bad economics. I guess this is a satisfying explanation why fascism is increasing in all over the world… However the numbers in Greece are staying low, even if Greece have too many open foreign issues and a highly increased immigration numbers.
Now, the other side…
Mr. Kapllani left Albania some years ago and came to Greece, where I am sure he didn’t found these hard, unfair situations that all Albanian people suffered back then.
Yet he decided to write a book where there is not a single good reference to this country. On the other side, many foreign people are choosing to give bad critics to Greece, especially in the issue of human rights…
I mean, when you experience situations like this he describe in his book, at a daily basis, you just leave, you don’t stay 15 years. So I guess mr. Kapllani and many others must thing twice.
Saying that by living in Greece, they didn’t saw any good progress in their way of life, let me say it is a lie, or just empathy in the worst case. Greek government did many things the last years to help Albanian people. Just to let you know, Greek country can give Greek citizenship to Albanians in 1-2 years instead of some other countries (for example Poland) where Greek citizenship needs 10-12 years (!)
Criticism in the human rights issue is always well desired, but in these days of this hard economical crisis, where people loose their jobs and minds every day, let me tell some people ask too much.
Thank you for your time.
These days of economic crisis, immigrants ask too much, you say. OK, so what about when the borders opened and the first Albanians came to Greece? What was the excuse then?
I do remember those days quite clearly. A “good Albanian” was called a “Northern Hepirote”, whereas a bad one was just “Albanian”. Regardless they were all packed in buses and sent back to Albania, in those dreadful “epixeirisi skoupa” of the police.
Those days, there was not a shade of an economic crisis in sight. Today we still don’t treat immigrants any better. So it’s not the economic crisis. It’s just the ambient xenophobia and racism of Greek society.
Dear Stassa,
“Epichirisi Skoypa” happened for controlling criminals that entered Greece along with good-heart people when Albania’s jails opened – not for kicking out just foreigners. All EU countries have same operations and you know it’s not something illegal. Straight to the point, now…
Greece doesn’t have heavy industry. Back then, there were not so many immigrants, market could adjust their number. Today the number is big and growing. Since so many people are looking for job, the competition is rising and they have to work almost for free in attempt to survive. Salary, work and living conditions are going bad, steady and slow. The crisis make all these worst.
European Union reports warning Greek government for serious troubles in the future. People start worrying too… That’s why some people protest for un-controlled immigration or trying to join nationalistic political groups (so we face situations like this in the “Short Border Handbook”).
Greek government put the label “Racism and Xenophoby” in every serious suggestion or complaint about this situation.
High numbers of immigrants in a country with not serious industry will lead them to slavery. Some of them will steal. Their women and daughters will be prostitutes. Some maybe die starving, poor, helpless, homeless, sick… Greece had serious rates of unemployed people a long ago before immigrants start approaching numbers like 2.5 millions. This is a subject Human Rights organizations should focus on… But they do other things.
Please, are you being serious? The skoupa operations of the 1990s were carried out only when Greece had arguments with the Albanian government. This is well-documented by Greek researchers. Furthermore, the 200,000 deportations a year were unlawful and were stopped after interventions from the Ombudsman. No other EU countries has ever illegally deported people, and certainly not in the hundreds of thousands!
The actual number of imnmigrants in Greece is actually unknown, so it is a matter of opinion to say how many there are. The standard estimate has been for several years around 900,000 (excluding homogeneis). There is limited evidence to suggest that there may even be fewer than at the time of the Olympics, when Greece had a lot of construction work. The only thing that has changed clearly in the last year is that a few thousand arrive every month across the Turkish border into the Greek islands. Even with that, the number is not so much the problem anyway.
Dear mr. Xenos.
They didn’t deport everybody in sight. They deport people without documents. It is legal whatever the number is. The last years Greek government changed some laws so now if they found a foreigner without documents he/she can stay for some days and later with a pack of laws he/she can stay longer.
Other EU countries have same operation schedules as “skoypa”. I have to admit they don’t use it in same scale as Greece. The basic reason is that they don’t have many people without documents since their border control is much better than border control in Greece. So people can’t enter so easy. However be sure when they find people that stay illegal in these countries they kick him out pretty fast. They don’t care if is 1 or 10.000 people.
All the other I wrote, whatever the number is, problem is still the same. Slavery and immigration are walking hand by hand in the new millennia.
Excuse me for pointing out the obvious, but the reason that all the immigrants in Greece are without documents is because the Greek state has since 1929 decided that there should be no legal immigration. Thus everybody arrives as refugees, tourists or irregular immigrants. This has always been the policy of Greece.
And no, it was not, and still is not, legal for the police to arrest people and deport them without legal process. There is Greek law and international law to be followed, not a fascist idea that the police or the government can do as they like. This is the problem with Greek people’s ideas about democracy: you have no conception of what the rule of law actually means, because everything in Greece is illegal. So all of this claptrap about democracy and freedom is bullshit, since nobody has the slightest idea of how things are done in countries where the law actually matters.
And your last point, that in other EU countries the migrants are kicked out pretty fast is bullshit too. If you knew anything about the situation, you would know that the UK has a track record of deporting about 10% of people who have gone through any legal processes (with legal counsel and free translation) whereas Greece provides no legal counsel and no translation, with all documents in Greek only. The comparison with most other EU countries and Greece is black and white: Greece offers no legal protection, no financial resources, no rights… It is not that the other countries are so good, as human rights activists will tell you: it is merely that Greece is a disgrace.
Well, mr Xenos, for once more I have to disagree with you.
If Greece is such a bad place, why some people walking 3-4 days to come here? Whey they stay here for years and they don’t go to a better place and leave this hell behind?
Why they don’t go to other EU countries, countries with better economy, better health and insurance systems, better salaray, better way of living, better law, and more? Why they don’t go to Sweden or Germany?
For sure the opinion that an open-border county is a heaven of democracy is really interesting. To me it looks like a kindergarten nation. A house with wide open doors and windows. You use this model with your house mr Xenos? I don’t see the reason to do this with a country.
Other countries may have better Human Rights systems….
But I don’t know if Germany could let immigrants to public celebrate the creation of Berlin’s Wall or if the USA citizens could allow the public celebration of the 9/11 terrorist attacks…
However in Greece, muslim immigrants public celebrated the capture of Constantinople by the Turkish, like we all recently saw…
Aneprokopos: At no point did I tell you or other Greeks that you should open your borders or allow anyone at all to come into Greece. Every EU country is restrictive in this respect, and illegal migration is commonplace partly because of the difficulty of migrating legally anywhere within the EU. My points were about the legal obligations of Greece — not only to immigrants but also to Greek people. The Greek state is a small disaster even for Greeks…
As far as both legal and irregular migrants are concerned, many do try to leave for Sweden, Canada, UK and other countries. The Afghan camp in Patras is there precisely because they try to cross illegally into Italy, and from there to northern countries. However, under the Dublin II agreement, all EU countries are legally obliged to return such migrants to Greece. Very large numbers are returned, and they are deprived of correct legal process in terms of the Geneva Convention.
I was not aware of any Muslim demonstration celebrating the sacking of Constantinople. I suppose such things are allowed anywhere under the principle of free speech, but personally I dislike the celebration of historical violence. I agree that it is not a very nice thing for Greek people, but perhaps it was done in reaction to the strong Greek nationalism and anti-Muslim behaviour…
@ Aneprokopos
If you ask most people who arrive in Greece without papers what their intention is, they will tell you that they do not want to stay here. Many want to go to Britain because they believe they will have a better life there. I don’t think many dream of making it to Greece and living better here.
Sorry people but Greece is not the destination of choice. Most simply find it easier to get here and then are stuck in limbo by the overwhelmingly difficult process of legalising their presence.
Also, the Dublin agreement says that if people are caught traveling on without papers, they are sent back to the first European country that they entered ie Greece.
I remember very well the hysteria of the “immigrants taking over” and “being outnumbered” that was common in Britain. In reality, the percentage of immigrants within the population has remained about the same for more than twenty years. The same will happen here (and in other European countries). People emigrate to other countries in order to find a better life not to annoy the host country or to take over.
@xenos
We must have been writing at the same time!
Sure. But as opposed to which enlightened example of a liberal democracy, pray?
would love to live there! lol
Stassa: I agree that we are bit short of enlightened examples of liberal democracy. Sometimes Canada is portayed as one, but I am unable to comment.
Really, my point is that Greece is so much worse than the other long-standing EU countries with the extent of illegality and corruption — and nothing is being done to improve it. ND was elected with this mandate and far from improving the situation have made it far worse with their own corruption added to the previous lot.
In such a country, is anyone genuinely surprised that irregular immigrants from third world countries are involved in the Greek black economy, or worse, in criminal activities? The problem is not with immigrants, it is with Greece.
“If you ask most people who arrive in Greece without papers what their intention is, they will tell you that they do not want to stay here.”
That is why I argued for a two-tier system. http://deviousdiva.com/2009/05.....ent-109017
If you don’t want to stay in Greece, you should be processed differently from those who want to stay.
There is no perfect country. Moore’s UTOPIA is supposed to be, but IMHO it is a hellish place.
Saying who is responsible for a situation is always easy mr. Xenos…
The hard part is to suggest solutions…
“It’s his fault” was always the best line at the edge of big problems…
Makes people feel good in a way but it never makes things better.
I only told that incoming immigrations should be controlled.
And I think we all agree with that.
For sure the problem is not Greece since Greece is not a person.
You probably mean “Greek people is the problem”.
Do you mr. Xenos?
Aneprokopos,
Yes, that’s exactly what he means. He despises Greeks for some reason (i think it stems from the time when some Greeks stole money from him in the past – he just can’t let it go – he has dedicated his life to being a miserable bigot). He thinks Greeks are culturally prone to being homophobic, are prone to taking bribes, are keen on corruption, are afflicted with a peasant mentality, are beggars etc…He is a racist and bigot in every sense. The fact that he has been allowed to spout his offensive nonsense on this blog for four years absolutely baffles me.,,
Konstantinos,
At least the Greek people feel moved enough to riot. We Brits can’t even be bothered to get off our arses and hold a few placards to protest against the years and years of MPs stealing tax payers money as “expenses”.
Whenever they have a grievance, or there is a political scandal or government corruption, the Greeks and French protest, or go on strike or riot.
Whenever we Brits get angry with our politicians, we vote for the BNP. I prefer the French and Greek way of expressing dissatisfaction with the system….(although i disapprove of violence)…
Mr. Scowcroft…
I didn’t want to say that…
Actually, I believe Greek people are the problem in most cases.
People have the power to create or destroy in every society.
For the problems of my house, I am responsible and nobody else.
Sorry, i didn’t mean to put words in your mouth – i only want to clarify where racists like Xenos are coming from. I know British racists, I know the problems of my house as you put it….
DD,
I completely agree.
Also, the invention of British Parliamentary Democracy a few hundred years ago is no excuse for the recent move towards fascism in the European elections by the UK electorate.
Unfortunately, mass immigration causes many bigots to come out the woodwork no matter what country they come from. However, some of our fellow Brits in Yorkshire and Humberside have managed to propel the fascists all the way to the European Parliament – Greeks haven’t gone that far (yet).
yeah ok.
no worries.
i should be more careful when i writhe english.
it sounded bad or ironic in a way.
i’m sorry, it was not my mention
Xen,
It would be nice to have some factual basis to your anti southern European mudslinging. I mean seriously, you say you’re a “lecturer” who “teaches” university students and “publishes” books and “research works” in Greece but all you’ve given us so far is a load of racist vitriol and unsubstantiated claptrap. In fact, for a person who is so involved with “teaching” and “research” you’ve given us bugger-all when it comes to evidence to support your claims.
Let’s try to “back up” what we say in here by giving a few links to websites or articles and such like – let’s be a little more constructive in here rather than making outlandish claims and ethnicity-based attacks. And please, put things in context, i.e. there is a black economy in Greece which is mirrored in Italy in terms of scale – and dwarfed by the Russian black economy – let’s not single out “Greeks” for taking backhanders
When you said “Greeks are keen on corruption” and “Greeks have a peasant mentality” and “Greek culture makes Greeks more likely to be homophobic”, if you’d made the same comments about Nigerians or Africans you’d be up on charges of incitement to racial hatred. Why should it be any different when you make these generalisations about southern Europeans? It’s a disgrace that you think it’s acceptable to make such obviously offensive comments about a group of people. And you have the audacity to make these comments on a human rights blog!
By the way, you STILL haven’t told us three things that you like about the Greek people and their culture. You haven’t been able to tell us three measly things that you like about Greek culture in order to prove to us that you’re not totally hateful. I know that some Greeks nicked your money in the past but your hatred is getting beyond a joke. You keep banging on about the southern Europeans as if they are inferior in every way to your royal highness, why don’t you say something nice to prove that you’re not a total misery guts?
A quick Googling suggests that you are wrong (and not for the first time either).
Illegal deportation of 227 Libyan immigrants from Italy
http://libcom.org/news/italy-i.....a-07052009
A family of Afghan asylum seekers sent back to Germany last month in a military aircraft were unlawfully removed from Britain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....legal.html
Thirty eight Egyptians will be flown to Cairo on Tuesday, the first group to be deported from Italy under the new plan.
http://www.javno.com/en-world/.....nts_219476
^ and these are only the first few hits…
Let’s not mention the illegal deportation of prisoners from the UK, rendition flights, illegal deportation to Guantanmo etc which flout just about every single internatinal deportation law known to the civilised world. Let’s not even go there…let’s ignore our country’s illegal deportations and let’s focus solely on the neanderthal southern European stereotype that you like so much, shall we?
DD: I repeat my request for those who make personal insults to be banned from your blog. I am not interested to have any form of discussion with ignorant politically motivated persons who do not even know anything about Greece. This person Scofield is just offensive and ignorant. Nobody wants him here, and I object very strongly to his nasty little tricks of taking attention away from Greek problems and pretending that the problem is with me or anyone else who disagrees with his line if political correctness. At least in Greece we normally escape that shit, and now we have it on top of all the other problems…
Cheer up, misery guts
No worries Aneprokopos
DD,
Well, the Dublin agreement is clearly not workable. Did we activists campaign against this clearly unworkable agreement which was causing misery to immigrants and their host countries? It’s clear that poor countries lack infrastructure and can’t cope with such a high level of immigration at this present time but we are more concerned with attacking the symptoms rather than the causes.
Immigrants themselves don’t want to settle in the poorer countries who lack the capabilities to take them – wouldn’t it make more sense and be more conducive to the principles of freedom and human rights to allow immigrants to settle and work wherever they wish? Did any of us campaign against the unfair Dublin Regulation instead of campaigning against countries which lack the economies and infrastructure to accommodate such an unprecedented level of immigration? Surely it’s a breach of immigrants’ human rights to force them to settle somewhere that they don’t want to settle and where conditions are poor – they want to pass through Greece and to the richer countries, why not allow them to do as they please?
But sometimes, we human rights activists find it easier to attack the people and their countries, rather than the system that is forced upon them. Laws and Regulations are meant to be changed if they’re not working and it’s clear that the Dublin regulation was not working for countries like Malta, Portugal and Greece. Thank god that the Members of European Parliament finally got off their arses and backed the proposals to change the Dublin Regulaton.
But there was scant coverage of the changes to the Dublin agreement in this blog – too much ranting against southern European people’s xenophobia clouding the real issues, I suppose….
DD,
That “was” common in Britain? Surely you mean “is” common in Britain – DD, you know as well as me that the majority of Brits are perenial complainers about immigrants coming over here taking our jobs – so much so that a massive number of us voted for the BNP into the European Parliament. In all, almost 1,000,000 of us voted for the fascist party and a great many others voted for UKIP which has it’s roots in the far-right.. That’s an awful lot of ordinary Brits voicing their support of fascism – I agree with Konstantinos, it’s Britain and other “civilised” EU countries which are moving towards fascism because as far as I know, Greece has not elected any members of the far-right in the Euro elections.
And the BNP didn’t have candidates standing in all UK regions, imagine when the BNP has representatives in all constituencies – the BNP will be voted-in in their droves.
So, we cannot talk about British xenophobia in the past tense. British racism and xenophobia is alive and well and has just been given political legitimacy and a European mandate by the British electorate.
DD,
I don’t believe that’s correct. The UK population is soaring as a result of immigration – rich countries like the ours are saying they can’t cope with mass immigration, imagine what the poorer countries are going through.
Tougher rules aimed at curbing population rise
http://www.guardian.co.uk/poli.....nts-system
The first figures from last year’s census to be published next month are expected to show that the population of the United Kingdom has risen above 60 million and is expected to reach 65 million by 2025.
With the indigenous population producing fewer children, immigration is now the principal motor behind the growth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....ecade.html
Until mid-1999 the increase in births and decrease in the death rate accounted for the largest proportion of the change in the UK population. Latterly, immigration has been the largest single factor – in part due to increased mobility of EU citizens. In mid 2002 immigration accounted for 70% of that year’s increase in the population. http://www.aboutimmigration.co.....ation.html
Some people on this blog are carrying on as if the governments of the poorer EU countries possess a magic wand that they can wave and magically improve infrastructure and economic conditions but they refuse to wave it because of inherent xenophobia.
We have to realise that the poorer countries such as Greece are overburdened and just can’t cope with the level of immigration.
Instead of harping on about poor countries having a terrible records on immigrant rights, we should be looking at constructive and realistic ways to granting immigrants the right to choose where they want to work and settle in. This appraoch is more correlative to human rights than forcing immigrsants to accept a life of misery in a poor country overburdened by a mass influx of people.
And things are changing, but it’s passing under the radar of human rights activists because we’re often more concerned about attacking people and their countries rather than changing the system.
The recent proposal by the European Parliament is finally here; it contains a provision under which immigrants will not now be sent to member states that cannot offer them appropriate reception conditions and asylum procedure access.
This means that relatively poor countries such as Portugal, Greece, Malta, Cyprus etc will not be expected to shoulder a responsibility that they cannot bear and which should belong to all (especially the richer countries like mine which start illegal wars and create a mass exodus of people and expect other poorer countries to accommodate them…).
The new proposals show that European Parliament has finally come to it’s senses to help overburdened southern European countries like Greece which simply can’t cope.
European Parliament backs asylum package
http://www.ecre.org/files/ECRE.....y_2009.pdf
About time too.
@ Michael Scowcroft
You’re right. I did use the past tense but then I haven’t lived in England for more than 15 years ! And also this blog is only 4 years old (way younger than the Dublin Agreement!)
Always looking…
I know you are DD..
Aneprokopos, the following is factually wrong:
There is no difference in the statutes between immigrants from Albania or Poland when it comes to acquiring citizenship. Of course Poles, being EU nationals, have a leg up on the Albanians when it comes to their rights. But both categories need to have maintained a certain presence in the the country for a large number of years with employment before they apply for citizenship. Which can be rejected – thank God or else certain UCK types I know would now have a Greek passport.
The only thing that changed the last 2 years is that the Greek state decided to stop treating Greeks from Albania as an intermediate type of homogenis (ie. with the right to a homogenis card and a different status but with no right to eventual citizenship). The reason that Greece has been avoiding conferring citizenship to immigrants from Albania and Turkey of Greek background has been its foreign policy goal of not allowing the minorities in Albania and Turkey shrink any further in size. The homogenis themselves (that in most cases have no intention of returning or even cannot return as they are wanted – in Turkey for not serving in the army) have been the victims of such a policy.
Finally if only 10% of illegal immigrants are deported from the UK I can only assume that either:
a) They are miraculously almost to the man asylum cases
b) The UK authorities are easily fooled into believing economic migrants are asylum seekers
c) UK law is so lax that it allows non-asylum seekers that have not engaged in criminal activity (beyond crossing the border illegaly) to stay in the country
I find (a) hard to believe, (b) difficult to comprehend and (c) a disaster-in-the-making.
Oath Taken: the answer to your question about why only 10% in the UK were deported, with the highest ratio being Greece at about 70% (I think), is that the legal procedures and rights of illegal migrants are quite substantial in northern EU coutries. And yes, they all apply for asylum.
The southern countries simply refuse to give legal aid or proper procedures in the asylum process and certainly don’t conform to the jurisprudence of the ECtHR for irregular migrants and even general legal process.
However, my data are a few years old and the UK and others have deteriorated since then, coming to look more like the terrible Greek case — but still not quite so bad.
One general comment on demographic trends in Europe: almost every EU country has zero natural growth of population (Ireland excepted, and UK partially) and relies on immigrants for its labour supply and also to boost its young population. Italy, Germany and Spain are the worst cases, followed by Greece: they are all absolutely dependent on immigration and immigrant births for population growth. The uk is not so dependent but has a very serious problem of mass emigration of the highly skilled since 1980 — and now has the largest stock of highly skilled diaspora in the world. The result is, of course, a rather lower standard of education and comprehension of the Brits left in the UK. There is plenty of corroborating evidence to be found, even in this blog.
If you’ve got something to say to me, come out and say it clearly and with conviction, don’t hide behind ambiguous and tentative insults…but that is normally the way of the racist, you shout offensive generalisations about people but when you’re confronted, you crawl back under your rock, mumbling barely decipherable insults….
I wonder if you’d be brave enough to say the offensive generalisations to people’s faces..I wonder what would happen if you went up to a Nigerian and made the same comments you made about Greeks:
“Nigerians are keen on fraud”
“Nigerians will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly”
“Nigerians have an African villager mentality”
“Nigerian cultural values make Nigerians likely to be homophobic”
All i’ve done is subsitute “Greeks” for “Nigerians”.
Can we apply some sort of consistency in here and agree that Xenos is a bigot? Or is it somehow more acceptable when these foul and abusive generalisations are applied to southern European people? After all, all I’ve done is substitute one nationality for another….
Xenos should be identified as the out and out bigot he is. No ifs buts or maybes…
I’ll go back and read the rest of the post later. For now:
No, it’s the UK’s fault for not taking them in. We’d gladly send them that way if we could but our hands are tied.
This is such a serious covnersation.
Hahahahaha! Good one, Stranger…
So essentially you are telling me it is (b) because of such easily manipulated laws that a bit of legal aid is enough to subvert the system. Having lived in the UK for three wonderful year in the beginning of the 1990s and seen the British state functioning (as opposed to the Greek state limping along) I find it very hard to comprehend how the British have let good intentions (protection of asylum seekers) screw up their own system.
As for the argument that uncontrolled immigration of more difficult to integrate destitute people is the solution to Europe’s population crisis I don’t buy it. Neither did the French apparently and their population is beginning to pick up. I see the rifts in the social fabric and the resulting rise of the far right (which had hung its head in shame for most of the two decades following 1974) as one of the very unfortunate results of that.
Well, I am not surprised at your responses. Basically, you just don’t get it: namely, that strong legal rights that cover all residents of a country are the basis of modern democracy. The Greek state is a failed state in many respects, and is unable to guarantee basic rights even to Greek citizens: the jurisprudence of the European Court is very clear on that. The fact is that in a well-functioning country, everyone has rights and you should not (and cannot) deport people without going through legal challenges to the authoritarian power of the state or government.
Insofar as taking in legitimate refugees is concerned (the Geneva Conventions) this is part of our European post-war democracy. The same applies with the European Convention on Human Rights and the associated Court. If Greek people don’t accept these values, why are you in the European Union? The Arabic mentality is perhaps more to your taste, since that is the policy Greece has tried to follow: only “our” nationality is welcome; everyone else is tolerated with temporary permits to work, then they should leave; you will never get citizenship, because you were not born an Arab/Greek…
This is a fundamental issue, and the current hysterical debate on irregular migration in the Eastern Aegean is ignoring it, and is simply politically motivated. Blaming immigrants for the terrible mess that Greece is now in, is a very attractive idea for the ND government, and they are going for it in a serious way. As usual, Greeks never accept resposibility for anything.
Jesus Christ. Will you stop it with the Greek-bashing you horrible little man? You’re British aren’t you? Well you have some cheek lecturing others on how modern democracies are based on human rights. Greeck corruption and human rights violations are nothing compared to the appalling human rights record of the UK, whose government officials and military keep threatening to pull out of the European Convention of Human RIghts because “it makes their job of protecting their citizens harder” and “it’s little more than a villain’s charter” and so forth.
Not to mention the disgusting tactics of its police forces that keep coming to the fore, the cameras everywhere of course, the postcode lottery in medical treatment and rape convictions, the illegal deportations of asylum seekers and their illegal detentions until then, the participation of British agents in torturing of UK citizens in foreign countries, the control orders against suspects who are tried without even hearing the accusations against them, the repeated condemnations of the country by the ECHR for violations against the rights of every minority under the sun, the fact that British people just can’t get it in their big dumb heads that they actually do have a right to not be kicked out of their jobs because the management isn’t making a high enough bonus, the employment prospects of pregnant women, the treatment of children as criminals in breach of every human rights concept imaginable, the demonisation of youth in the press and the use of a noise-making device to keep them away from shops, the bloody tabloid rags already!, the way the government bamboozled its people in support of the Iraq war against any sense of abiding to international law or… whatever, I could go on.
Just cut the crap, some of us here live in a “proper Western democracy”. Yeah, Greece has its problems. Clean your own nest first and then come and tell us how to behave properly.
Mr. Xenos,
Why you speak for the Greeks as a group?
How can you be sure about some millions of people you don’t even know personaly?
I know myself 28 years and yet some times I can’t predict my acts.
How can I be sure about for another person?
I don’t think that your opinion about the Greeks feets the bigest part of them. Surely, it feets a minority of them. A very small minority actually…
Please think twice, next time.
No, Stranger, you know what? I’ll give you that: you’re a perceptive little bugger (though it doesn’t take much to notice, if you actually live among us). You realise that Greeks, in particular, have a superiority/ inferiority complex worth 5000 years of history. They’re always on about how “those things don’t happen ‘abroad’”. And you think you can piggyback on that complex and browbeat us with how “abroad” (ekso) is so much better indeed.
Well, I’ll let you in on two little secrets: a) your “abroad” is shit. A country like France, a country like Germany, perhaps, or Austria, Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Turky even- those “abroad” have history, a history of a cutlure that goes beyond “we were a bunch of bearded savages until the Romans built our Aqueducts and then we had the biggest Empire ever”.
That kind of “abroad” is worth contemplating and it’s especially those first countries in the list that are actually close to the “abroad” that Greeks imagine when they speak of the ills of Greek society. Yours, is a bunch of self-hating, beliggerent, uncouth and illiterate barbarians worth every syllable of the word. b) It takes just one week living in the UK to realise all of the above, which is why the vast majority of the Greeks who come to study or work here bugger off back home in a hurry when they’re done with what they were doing. We actually like our country and our way of life, we actually like each other and can even learn to like strangers, like, for real, not like the sad politically correct self-hating idiots you go on about here. We, unlike you, are happy people. And you know why?
Because we don’t have to live in the bloody UK all of our damn lives.
/rant.
Oh. And we know how to make a proper cup of coffee.
Stassa: it is interesting to debate with you, because you express yourself directly and have some values that can be identified. This is good. What is not good is for you to think that my nationality is relevant. I am not responsible in any way for the appalling activities of the UK government over the last decade or more.
You make two fundamental errors in your arguments. First, is that I am implicitly promoting Britain or British values as the epitome of democracy. Not at all, there are good reasons to look much wider across Europe for standards — not least, since (as you say) there are some problems in the UK with certain rights.
Secondly, you fail to make a distinction between the state and government: in developed democracies these are very distinct and the state is an effective bulwark against rogue governments. Greece has no such protection because the state is so weak and corrupted. In particular, what I was talking about is the value of a strong, honest and independent judicial system, esepcially one that priorities citizens’ rights over those of the government or state institutions. The Greek judiciary is a scandal — corrupted and incompetent, merely fawning to the manipulations of politicians and the extreme rich.
So, please do not think like a nationalist: try to think like an idealist. When I lived in the UK, I was politically active and fought against Thatcher: I regret very much the decline of so much there. As I mentioned above, a very large proportion of the intelligentsia has fled the UK since those days, and the country has visibly dumbed down. You have only to look at the top-selling “newspaper” called The Sun to realise how low the intellectual level of the population actually is.
In the case of Greece, you have not addressed my point that your approach to immigration is basically Arabic. You should be worried that Greece’s claim to being European lies in ancient history and current geography, rather than in the values being promoted by its governments and behaviour. Very worried indeed.
While that of the EU as a whole is largely Byzantine, ha ha. Anyway, you’re wrong: Greece is simply lacking an answer to the issue of immigration, which then of course becomes a problem, but that is the reality for the EU as a whole anyway. We (European citizens and our governments) have no idea what to do about the people who come to our countries to stay. Welcome them? Throw them out? Treat them as friends? As a threat? You expect Greece to solve a problem that is of the EU? Why? And why would you expect the EU to solve a problem that is of human history? Your perspective is narrow and biased and I don’t see it proving anything but “Greeks suck, whinge whinge”.
If you want the truth, there are no easy answers about immigration, or any of the social and economic issues that Europe is currently facing. But instead of the truth, you decide to find someone to blame. Why? I’m not going to psychoanalyse you, but it’s not a choice you make based on logic and reason- it’s one you make based on personal emotion. Oh well. Such is the internet.
Of course not. I’m only assuming you’re British because of your use of the English language, I haven’t noticed you comparing Greece to the UK. However, you accuse Greece of not belonging to Europe, not being a proper European democracy and so on- you must be comparing it to some model-European democracy. Name the one, then we can discuss the comparison more specifically. Until then, I am comparing my country with the UK as an example of a European Democracy- and I find the comparison actually in favour of Greece.
And this of course is why we have Human Rights’ treaties and a court of human rights in the European Council: to protect the individual from the state… which of course is why the UK government (our example European Democracy government) wants to pull out of the Human Rights treaty. Because it’s not really separate from the state at all.
Forer effect! :p
Stassa: I don’t have an overly emotional reaction to Greece and its immigration management, other than indignation at the illegal behaviour of the state and the lack of rights in the judicial system. Today the European Court of Human Rights issued yet another judgement with an opinion similar to mine. Extracts are pasted below.
In terms of policy solutions, you may find the Greek newspapers reporting my specific proposals in the next days. My previous policy advice was reported in detail in 2001 in most of the Greek press, although little was taken up by politicians. Immigration is a tough nut to crack, but thus far Greece has done EVERYTHING badly. The current proposals are basically stupid, and will solve nothing — but I believe that that is the intention of ND to create a bigger crisis.
The European Court of Human Rights has today notified in writing its Chamber judgment in the case of S.D. v. Greece (application no. 53541/07).
The Court held unanimously that there had been:
• a violation of Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading treatment) of the European Convention on Human Rights, because of the conditions in which the applicant had been detained in holding centres for foreigners; and,
• a violation of Article 5 §§ 1 and 4 (right to liberty and security), because of the unlawfulness of his detention and the fact that he had been unable under Greek law to challenge its lawfulness.
1. Principal facts
The applicant, S.D., is a Turkish national who was born in 1959 and lives in Athens. Having been subjected to detentions and violence by the Turkish authorities because of his political convictions and his work as a journalist, he left Turkey and swam to Greece in 2007. On arriving in Greece he was arrested by the police for entering the country illegally. From 12 May to 10 July 2007 S.D. was detained in the holding facility at the Soufli border guard station.
S.D. alleged that he had immediately asked for political asylum, but no such request was registered. In 1990 he had already submitted an application for political asylum to the Greek authorities, but it had been rejected.
When he arrived in Greece on 12 May 2007, proceedings were brought against him for using forged papers and entering the country illegally. Although he was acquitted – the court found that he had been forced to leave Turkey because his life was in danger – the police arrested him again and deportation proceedings were initiated. He was placed in the holding facility at the Soufli border guard station pending his expulsion, but he was not deported because in the meantime the authorities had officially registered his asylum application. During his detention S.D. was not allowed to go outside or make telephone calls, and had no access to blankets, clean sheets or hot water.
On 24 May 2007 the applicant’s appeal against the decision to deport him was rejected by the District Police Commissioner, on the grounds that he represented a threat to the country’s peace and security.
The applicant’s objections against his detention were dismissed by the Administrative Court, according to which such objections were admissible in Greek law only if the person concerned intended to leave the country within thirty days, which was not the case here, as the applicant had applied for political asylum.
After an initial rejection, the processing of the asylum application (which the applicant’s lawyer had filed on 15 May 2007) was adjourned on 12 July 2007 as the authorities were awaiting additional information, including the results of medical examinations. This information was received on 19 September 2007 and confirmed the ill-treatment inflicted on the applicant in Turkey, which resembled torture, including electric shocks, ‘reverse-hanging’ (hanging naked by the arms with the wrists tied behind the back) or isolation in “F-type” cells.
On 10 July, while his asylum application was being processed, the applicant was transferred to the Petrou Rali holding facility for foreigners in Attica, where he remained confined to his cell until 16 July 2007, to be brought before the Advisory Committee on Asylum for an opinion on his application. On 17 July 2007 the applicant was issued with an asylum seeker’s certificate valid for six months, which has since been renewed twice, giving him the right to work and to receive medical assistance.
S.D. renewed his objections against his detention before the administrative tribunal, which allowed them on 16 July 2007. The court held that, in general, the expulsion and removal of a foreigner who had entered Greece illegally and applied for asylum there were prohibited. In the case in point it found that the examination of S.D.’s asylum application was pending and ordered his release.
3. Summary of the judgment2
Complaints
Relying on Article 3, S.D. complained about the conditions in which he had been detained for two months in the Soufli and Petrou Rali holding centres – without physical exercise, contact with the outside world or medical attention. Relying also on Article 5 §§ 1 and 4, he complained that he had been detained while he was an asylum seeker and that the Administrative Court had refused to examine the lawfulness of his detention.
Decision of the Court
Article 3
In reply to the Greek Government, who emphasised the limited duration of the detention (two months), the Court pointed out that the amount of time during which a person was subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment was immaterial, particularly where, as in the applicant’s case, the person’s state of health was fragile.
The applicant alleged that the Soufli holding facility had been overcrowded and the blankets dirty, and he had been deprived of outdoor activities, medical treatment, hot water and telephone calls. The Greek Government did not explicitly deny those allegations.
The allegations were in fact corroborated by several reports by international institutions – including the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and Human Rights Watch – confirming the deplorable conditions of detention in all the holding facilities near the border between Greece and Turkey.
The Court considered that, even assuming that the applicant had shared a relatively clean room with a bath and hot water with one other Turkish detainee, as stated by the head of the Greek section of Amnesty International when she visited the Soufli holding facility on 18 May 2007, S.D. had still spent two months in a prefabricated cabin, without being allowed outdoors and without access to a telephone, blankets or clean sheets or sufficient hygiene products. He was subsequently held in Patrou Rali and confined to his cell for six days, in unacceptable conditions as described by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture following their visit in February 2007.
The Court concluded that S.D., while an asylum seeker, had experienced conditions of detention that amounted to degrading treatment in violation of Article 3.
Article 5 § 1
The Court noted that S.D.’s asylum application had not been registered until the third attempt, on 17 May 2007, and that the authorities had then failed to take his asylum seeker status into account. His detention with a view to expulsion had in fact had no legal basis in Greek law after that date since asylum seekers whose applications were pending could not be deported. His detention had therefore been unlawful, in violation of Article 5 § 1.
Article 5 § 4
The Court noted that in Greece people who, like S.D., could not be expelled pending a decision about their application for asylum but wished to challenge the lawfulness of their detention found themselves in a legal vacuum. Greek law did not permit direct review of the lawfulness of the detention of an alien being held with a view to expulsion.
S.D. had been unable to have the lawfulness of his detention reviewed by the Greek courts. There had been no possibility in Greek law for him to obtain a decision on the matter, in violation of Article 5 § 4.
DD,
Even more reason to allow immigrants to go where they wish (allow them to bypass Greece and look for jobs and settle in the UK and Germany etc..i.e. countries which can cope with immigration). Thankfully, the Europeam Parliament has seen fit to accomodate the views of poorer, smaller countries like Greece, Portugal, Malta etc…..
I know you’re talking about immigrants DD, but i feel i must talk about people who DO consider Greece and southern Europe the desination of choice.
We Brits can’t get enough of the southern European sun, the safe environment to bring up a family, the warm hospitality and the wonderfully friendly people.
This is the reason why an awful lot of us leave our crime-ridden and dirty cities and come to the much more hospitable, friendly and culturally-sophisticated environment of Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. For a lot of us, Greece IS the destination of choice, it’s our choice to live in such wonderful south European countries, isn’t it DD?
Xen,
What a patronising gobshite
Basically you’re a bigot.
You don’t generalise much, do you?
You made one schoolboy error – you thought that your racism can be obscured by peseudo-intellectualism on this blog. I’ve got to admit, you’ve got away with it for four years. But not anymore…
Is there any such thing as an “Arabic approach to immigration”? What the hell is this bigot on about now?
For a person who is always talking about Greeks are peasants, Greeks are homophobes, Greeks this, Greeks that, you are very protective of your own nationality. I am actually embarassed that I share the same nationality with you. You and the 1,000,000 other racists who voted for the BNP are a disgrace to my country.
What a load of nonsense.
According to you, Italy is also a “failed State” because it suffers from a “black economy” similar to Greece’s (approx. 20% of GDP) and it has ECHR rulings against it’s immigration policy. I suppose Portugal is also a “failed state” because the European Court has ruled against Portugal’s abortion policies, or Austria is also a “failed state” because the ECHR has ruled against it’s gay marriage policy.
According to Fund for Peace, Greece is nowhere near to being a “failed state” but you won’t let the facts get in the way of your incessant Greece-bashing. http://www.fundforpeace.org/we.....Itemid=175
If i was Greek, I’d be profoundly offended by your ethnicity-based attacks – but i’ll refrain from being offended on their behalf.
However, I’m offended as a human being that racists like you can spout their bigotted nonsense under the guise of “highlighting the issues” – you are an offensive bigot who enjoys being able to make offensive remarks without people cottoning-on to what you’re actually doing. You’re using this blog to attack all Greeks because at one time in your life, some Greeks stole your money. You are using this blog as catharsis to soothe a hurt ego – go see a shrink, get over it, life’s too short to hate.
You’ve been given considerable leeway on this blog to carry on your attacks against Greek people – DD has deleted some of your more blatantly offensive posts and she has the patience of a saint – you’ve been spouting your filthy racist garbage on here for four years – that’s more than enough shit-kicking bigotry for any human rights blog to take – do us all a favour, take your views to racist sites like Stormfront where your “Greeks are peasants” comments will be more than welcome.
This verges on the conspiracy-theoretical. It’s simplistic to propose that the already elected government of a country has any interest in destabilising its society. Even if it’s not elected next year, ND already had a couple of terms and they will still hold considerable power as shadow government. Not even LAOS will really profit from a serious crisis. Basically, nobody will and it takes a 15-year old with a balaclava not to see that.
I will have a look at the press to be impressed by your grand proposals, but if they are along the lines of “Greeks are a bunch of vlachoi” and “The country should be kicked out of the EU” (not overtly emotional, you say?), then I’m afraid they won’t find a better reception than they did last time. Of course I haven’t got a clue what your name is, so I might miss it anyway.
I am of course aware of the ECHR judgment you quote and I could not possibly disagree that it is a complete disgrace, and not the first or the last of its kind. However- you keep accusing Greece of standing out in a long line of inefficient and corrupt European nations who treat the Court’s decisions as little more than suggestions, or being lectured by a concerned parent. You force me into the very uneasy place of having to stand up for my country and its government (when I do not really believe in nations and am certainly not affiliated with the government in any way) for the simple fact that you are being exceedingly prejudiced against both. And of course, let’s not forget that when you call Greeks vlachoi and gliftes, that means me too (being Greek).
Nationalists insisting that Greece is the best country in the world and you insisting that it’s the worse case of a failed democracy in Europe aren’t much different. Just fringe and extremist views both, ‘mafraid.
Stassa: It is a common worldwide practice for governments to create unneeded crises when they have failed miserably in their governance. The usual tactic is to create some sort of war situation: this is to some extent what has already occurred with the Greek state’s position on Muslim immigrants in Athens. They have avoided making a political declaration on that, since it would be too obvious, but their refusal to apologise for the police desecration of a copy of the Koran (and the ensuing riot) makes it clear. Furthermore, the stated intention of putting all undocumented immigrants residing in Athens city centre into concentration camps is a clear political game to appeal to Greek voters.
Insofar as my professional activities are concerned, I do not make policy proposals that focus on the cultural characteristics of the Greek nation. Such comments have arisen on this blog in the context of very aggressive nationalistic and personal attacks on me. However, it is the case that there are real difficulties in Greece with making positive policy changes because of the specific cultural attributes of much of the population along with the low quality of contemporary Greek politicians.
Xen,
I think you’re being disengenuous again – you’re insinuating that the Greek state has “refused” to do something when asked to do so, which isn’t true.
You are also implying that a state must apologise whenever one of their instruments such as the Police or Armed Services acts illegally or in violation of human rights. In that case, i am still waiting for an apology from my government for taking us into an illegal war in Iraq, an apology for the racially-motivated bodged Police investigation of Stephen Lawrence’s murder, the killing of unarmed Tom Atkinson by British Police during the G8 protests, the cold-blooded murder of Jean Charles De Menezes by Police on the Tube, etc etc…Maybe states should apologise when their state instruments or institutions act unlawfully but let’s not pretend that it’s obligatory to do so.
Whatever justifications you make for your paranoid and hate-filled theories about southern Europeans, you can’t escape the fact that you’ve been making offensive remarks against Greeks and their culture for four years on this blog.
You go way beyond “highlighting the issues” – you consistenly cross the line into offensive generalisations and downright bigotry. You clearly HATE greeks because i have asked you many times to tell me three things that you actually like about Greeks and their country but you haven’t been able to find a single thing! Only a truly hateful and bitter person cannot find a redeeming feature for the country and people in which he lives and works.
Pretending that you’re a “lecturer” or “policy advisor” will not exhonerate you from the undeniably foul and abusive comments you’ve made on this blog. Notwithstanding your bad language (where you’ve told me and others to “fuck off”), you’ve made remarks that would be considered offensive to ANY nationality.
In fact, i’m flabbergasted that DD has allowed you and others to spout your offensive diatribes against southern Europeans on here for so long but she cannot possibly read everything which is written in her blog.
Honestly now, do you find the comments you made acceptable? (All i’ve done is substitute one nationality for another in the hope that you may be persuaded that these comments are universally unnacceptable):
“Nigerians are keen on fraud”
“Nigerians will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly”
“Nigerians have a peasant mentality”
“Nigerian cultural values make Nigerians likely to be homophobic”
Do you have any regrets or second thoughts about saying this about Greeks at all?
Man what a train wreck. DD the only way to save this is to start a Xenos vs. Stassa vs. Micheal entry
Actually, it’s more like Xenos vs. the tolerant and civilised world. Arguing against people like Xenos is like challenging all racists and all racism.
Hi DD, I didn’t want to leave this on your last post because there was a good, loving vibe.
Just wanted to show you this.
http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=55898
“Strawberries and Barbarism” — Basically, someone suspected two immigrant strawberry pickers of stealing sheep, and instead of reporting it to police, he tied them to his motorcycle and dragged them around the village.