Following the acquittal of self-proclaimed Nazi, fascist, racist, anti-democratic, anti-Semite Plevris on appeal, there have been some angry reactions and concerned statements made in the press. There is one issue that still needs to be made clear to everyone. In a statement from the European Jewish Congress, it is alleged that
a Greek appeals court has tacitly endorsed incitement of racial violence and hatred under the guise of freedom of expression
The actual truth is that
The court did hear arguments and motions related to freedom of expression and rejected them; hence, the acquittal meant that the book was considered by the court as not being racist
(via the GHM who brought the lawsuit against Plevris)
Coincidentally, I was watching Boston Legal last night, the episode entitled “Witches of Mass Destruction” which ends with this famous poem (credited to Martin Niemoller)
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
(Please note there are many different versions of the same verse)
I have yet to see any public outrage here in Greece.
I am posting reactions from various organisations below:
From the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece
This decision of the Appeals Court saddens, perplexes and causes concern among citizens of a modern democratic society as a self-confessed promoter of Nazism and racism remains unpunished though he not only distorts proven historical evidence, but even worse, uses his pen to incite hatred and provoke discrimination and violence against citizens of Greece and Europe. We stress that during the Appeal trial, K. Plevris “threatened” with “what would happen if Hitler was to rise from his grave”! Greek Jews never cease to stand by the forces of civilized humanity in the endless battle against racism and anti-Semitism, fascism and Nazism, in Greek society and society worldwide.
From the Antinazi Initiative:
This is a horrifying decision that blatantly infringes the antiracist law 927/79 and the international conventions ratified by Greece, and above all, it consists a direct shielding and encouragement of the anti-Semitic hate and violence propaganda that strengthens in our country in the last period.
In other words, it was judged that no penalty should be imposed on the glorifier of the Third Reich, Hitler, Gobbles, Himmler, of the “superior national socialists”, of the “heroic” SS who claims that «it will not be long until the dawn of the day that the flags of nazism will rise again», and who has written 1,400 pages trying to convince his readers that the “sub-humans Jews” must be exterminated and ousted from all European Countries.
That is, the court acquitted a nazi who produced only writings that consist nothing less than the definition of provocation to racist violence and hate.
This decision is not an isolated fault of a specific court consisted of specific judges, but comes as a capstone of a series of anti-Semitic positions expressed by judges who participated in this judicial procedure from its beginning. The most worrying aspect of this case is that this decision was taken within a certain political environment where parliamentary cadres of the party LAOS (“Popular Orthodox Rally”) defended the nazi in court and out of it. At the same time all the other parliamentary parties headed by the anti-Semitic «left», kept a stand of scandalous, guilty, and lengthy silence, blatantly favoring the defendant and LAOS.
Most characteristic is the silence about the provocative stand of the LAOS MP, Thanassis Plevris, counsel of the defense for the nazi in court, who went so far as to state that anyone has the «democratic right» to call for the extermination of any people even for the re-opening of Auschwitz!
Antinazi Initiative will not stop here: This judgment that consists negative landmark in the democratic course of our country, shame for Greece and for the Greek justice will become known to the Greek people, to Europe and to all democratic countries.
We call the democrats to react to the process of fascistization of our country before it is too late.
From the Simon Wiesenthal Centre:
In a letter to OSCE Chairperson-in-Office, Madam Dora Bakoyannis, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre’s Director for International Relations, Dr Shimon Samuels, expressed “outrage at the Greek authorities’ indifference to last Friday’s acquittal of hatemonger Kostas Plevris on charges of incitement regarding his 1,400 page antisemitic diatribe, ‘The Jews – The Whole Truth’.”
He recalled that, “on 16 September 2008, our Centre warned Greece that the following day’s Appeal trial of the pro-Nazi publicist would pass ‘a message to Greek young people on whether racism may be manifested with impunity ‘. We noted the irregularities reported during this ongoing legal case, including the expulsion of the plaintiff’s counsel from the Court, and the Public Prosecutor who, allegedly, denoted this Nazi text as ’scientific writing’.”
The letter quoted the French sociologist, Pierre-Andres Taguieff, who posited that, “if such extreme antisemitism is freedom of expression, then Jew-hatred has [perversely] become a human right,” adding, on behalf of the Centre, “thus rendering the Jew as non-human”.
The Centre argued that “Plevis’ book unambiguously justifies violence against Jews as individuals and as a collective, on grounds of their religion, their ‘Holocaust lies’ (despite over 90% of Greek Jewry having
perished) and the existence of the State of Israel. Since the appearance of ‘The Jews – The Whole Truth’, assaults on Jewish cemeteries and Holocaust monuments, throughout Greece, have increased exponentially.”See extracts from the book as quoted by the Greek Anti-Nazi Initiative. Such passages were deemed by the Court as not constituting a provocation of hate and violence, nor an insult, against Greek Jews.
GANI also noted that Plevris’ defence counsil, extreme-right LA.O.S. Member of Parliament, Thanasis Plevris, stated that the call for the extermination of any people, even for the reopening of Auschwitz, was “a democratic right”.
The Greek Helsinki Monitor has criticized this acquittal as a day it hoped would never come that demonstrates how “antisemitism and, more generally, racism, is deeply entrenched in Greek society, and widely tolerated”.
Samuels emphasized that “the most striking feature of this outrage is the lack of protest from Greek opinion-moulders, the political parties, educators, unionists, churches, media etc. Greece has raised the bar of indifference to incitement to a new threshold, showing contempt for its commitments to the OSCE in regard to the combat of antisemitism and racism.”
He continued, “Left without condemnation, this indifference makes the Greek authorities complicit in any subsequent violence against minorities and sets a disturbing challenge for all State-Parties of the OSCE region.”
The Centre urged the OSCE “to call Greece to account due to its violation of the OSCE’s 2004 ‘Berlin Declaration on Antisemitism’ and other related instruments.
From the European Jewish Congress
EJC President Dr. Moshe Kantor stated, “The decision by the Greek court of appeals to overturn the conviction of Costas Plevris, a self-avowed neo-Nazi and anti-Semite, is a miscarriage of justice and makes a mockery of the Greek anti-racism law. By overturning Plevris’ conviction, the appeals court has essentially given legitimacy towards further violence against the Jewish community – in Greece and throughout Europe. It is nothing short of an abomination.”
Kantor noted, “Only a coward cloaks his hatred and incitement against other people behind the comfort and protection of ‘freedom of expression.’ In a symposium on religious and racial tolerance held by the EJC and European Parliament just last week, the Plevris case and his incitement against Jews were raised in the presence of a host of European MEPs. The EJC will work with other civil rights organizations to repeal the court decision and to lobby Greek institutions and the Greek government to ensure that in the end, Plevris will in fact serve his sentence for incitement to hatred and that justice will eventually be served.”
Kantor added, “The way in which the Greek government and courts deal with this court decision and other cases of this nature will be the true test as to the seriousness with which Greek leaders view anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. We will be watching.”
From Press TV:
A Greek appeals court has exonerated the author of an anti-Semitic book who was given a 14-month suspended sentence in December 2008.
The court cleared Constantine Plevris of racial insults and inciting hatred and racial violence with his book The Jews — The Whole Truth.
Lawyer and self-declared neo-Nazi Plevris denies the Holocaust in his 1,400-page book, takes sides with the Nazis and threatens Jews.
Published in 2006, the book also accuses Jews of being sub-human and worthy of the firing squad.
Greece’s Central Jewish Council (KIS) expressed ‘disappointment and astonishment’ at the decision and vowed to take the case to the Supreme Court.
The appeals court verdict “does not protect freedom of expression but a self-proclaimed neo-Nazi and anti-Semite,” the KIS told AFP.
The case against Plevris, which was the first of its kind in Greece, was initiated by the KIS and the Greek minority rights organization.
Plevris had said that his conviction would only show that the judges had been “bought by the Jews.”
About 6,000 Jewish people live in Greece and anti-Semitic literature is freely produced and circulated in the country.
From the European Jewish Press
Plevris had been convicted in first instance in December 2007 and condemned to 14 months of imprisonment on probation for three years for “racial insult”, “incitement to hatred and racial violence” on the basis of the 1979 anti-racist law.
At the time, the Jewish community saw the trial as a key test of the Greek authorities’ determination to deal with anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial in a country where anti-Semitic literature such as the infamous “Protocols of the elders of Zion” is on sale in bookshops.
The charges against Plevris were also brought by the Helsinki Monitor and the “Anti-Nazi Initiative” organization, two human right Greek NGO’s.
He immediately appealed the sentence.
According to Moses Constantinis, the Appeals court prosecutor characterized Plevris’s defamatory book – which denies the Holocaust, calls the Jews “sub-human” and threatens them with the “re-opening of the crematoria in Auschwitz- a “scientific work”.
To express the resentment of the Greek Jews, the Jewish umbrella body has decided not to be represented at the European symposium “Building together the Future of Europe” which will be held next Monday in Brussels, “given that theoretical analysis and statements made by Greek MEPs on the denunciation and condemnation of anti-Semitism are meaningless”.
Technorati Tags: greece, plevris, anti-semitism, jews, racism, law
LiveReal on March 8th, 2007
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It seems anti-semitism is on the rise everywhere.
Earlier this year the Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, warned that anti-semitism was rising to “uncomfortable levels”. There were 532 anti-semitic incidents last year, the highest number since records began in 1984. Dr Sacks has warned that even speeches by public figures appear to contain “undertones of anti-semitism”.
Mr MacShane said many British Jews were living with an unacceptable level of anxiety and discomfort. “They are forced to spend much-needed resources on securing their schools, places of worship and community centres.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2.....tionpolicy
You are right, Michael and although my blog focuses on a very narrow area (ie human rights in Greece) I hope that doesn’t diminish the fact that ALL the issues I bring up here are relevant everywhere!
Thank you for your continuing input.
You’re doing a wonderful job in highlighting issues which are relevant to us all, DD.
To be honest, when i first discovered your blog and read the title “THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY”, I thought that Greece was somehow being treated condescendingly, as in: “This is not my country, i don’t want to associate myself with such a racist, homophobic, sexist country, i’m British after all”. I thought it was just another arrogant Brit talking down to ‘uncivilised southern European savages’ again.
But as we both know, having both been born and bred in the UK, that our country has a legacy of hate and human wrongs which far outweighs anything that any small European country has done or can do in the future. From slavery and centuries of mistreatment of blacks, asians and immigrants in the UK, to insitutional racism in our Church, Police, Legal Profession, Army, Anti-Semitism, and conversely Islamophobia, you name it, we Brits do all of it much “better” and for longer than anyone else.
We Brits and perhaps Americans, can probably add to your title:
“This is not my country, MY COUNTRY IS MUCH WORSE. We have no moral authority to criticise poor undeveloped countries of racism etc, when we have committed more human rights violations than any other country in the world and continue to do so.”
Deaths of Children and Noncombatants in Iraq, 2003–2008
For Iraqi females, and children, events involving air attacks and mortar fire were the most dangerous. In air attacks causing civilian deaths, 46% of victims of known gender were female, and 39% of victims of known age were children. Mortar attacks claimed similarly high proportions of victims in these two demographic groups (44% and 42%). By comparison, 11% of victims across all weapons types were Iraqi females, and 9% were children.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/a.....nejm-2009/
A moment for truth as Britain exits Iraq
the cost of British operations in Iraq since the 2003 invasion has been £7.836bn – the equivalent of £3.7m a day.
Critics say that would be enough to fund 25,200 teachers for 10 years and to build 107 new hospitals.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....02312.html
Britain accused of failing in its responsibility to refugees:Just 1,305 Iraqi asylum-seekers landed in Britain in 2006, a fraction of the 8,950 who arrived in Sweden and fewer than in the Netherlands (2,765), Germany (2,065) and Greece (1,415). They have about a one in eight chance of being allowed to remain.
The asylum applications of 88 per cent of Iraqis were rejected last year, with 12 per cent either being granted asylum or discretionary leave to remain.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....59540.html
EU report accuses Britain of racism
This is reflected in the xenophobic and intolerant coverage of these groups of persons in the media, but also in the tone of the discourse resorted to by politicians in support of the adoption and enforcement of increasingly restrictive asylum and immigration laws,” the report said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....53103.html
“We have no moral authority to criticize poor undeveloped countries of racism etc, when we have committed more human rights violations than any other country in the world and continue to do so.”
Careful there, lest you hatred of your own evil actions blinds you to the evil others do. Self-Criticism as well needs moderation, otherwise it becomes self-destructive (now if one wishes to destroy one-self, this isn’t bad, but I have a feeling you don’t want to do that) and useless in making the world a better place.
The fact that the U.S or U.K or Greece or any other country of the world has a dim or bad human rights record, shouldn’t blind you or constrain you from pointing out the actions of others as well.
That is a problem I tend to have with the liberal left. Sometimes it losses all sense of measure in it’s self-criticism and forgets or condones horrible actions. Not sure if it applies to the right, since they tend to be less self-critical (exceptions exist).
Travlos,
Did you vote for Obama or for McCain?
Travlos, i am acutely aware of the racism and human rights violations of my own country and I can offer my opinion and personal experience on human rights issues here in the UK.
The problem i have with us Brits pointing fingers, is our often condescending attitudes towards southern Europeans when we go abroad, and a few examples of these attitudes are evident in some responses in this blog, especially in some criticisms of a poor European nation like Greece. Let me know, and i’ll point these attitudes out to you if you like. They go beyond criticism but you have to be British to identify how condescending and sneeringly British these comments are…
Have you noticed that since i’ve been posting here and challenged this uniquely British arrogance and
exposed these snide traits that some of my fellow British posters have threatened to leave this blog if i wasn’t banned. In fact, at least 4 posters have left this blog because they have been exposed as the little Englanders that they are.
I know the condescending attitude so well among my own people
and it’s prevalent among ex-pat Brits in Portugal, it’s the default setting for any Brit who thinks it’s their birthright as a British subject to go abroad and take the piss out of the natives. I always like to remind these xenophobic ex-pat hypocrites living in their ivory towers in their gated communities:
THIS IS NOT OUR COUNTRY, OUR COUNTRY IS MUCH MORE XENOPHOBIC AND OUR PEOPLE ARE MUCH MORE RACIST, SO TAKE YOUR RACIST ATTITUDES BACK TO BLIGHTY AND JOIN THE OTHER CRYPTIC RACISTS IN THE XENOPHOBIC HELL-HOLE THAT IS THE UK, AND LEAVE THIS HOSPITABLE COUNTRY WITH IT’S LOVELY, WARM AND WELCOMING PEOPLE IN PEACE.
Michael please calm down. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t point out the problems in attitude but to temper your conclusions. Churchill was a drunk, but were his criticisms of the Soviet Union valid or not? There is no perfect country and no perfect being. Imperfectness shouldn’t stop one from pointing out the wrong in the world, among them ones own. Greece has a bad policy towards Muslims when it comes to religious sites. Does this stop me from pointing out that so does Saudi Arabia? Should I am refuse to see one because of the other? Greece committed ethnic cleansing in 1821. Does this make me inappropriate in pointing out that so did Turkey in 1922?
I am afraid I cannot follow this.
As for the U.S Presidency I voted for the current incumbent. So what?
Don’t worry Travlos, i’m not angry at you, i used capital letters in the spirit of the title of this blog: THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY.
You are free to talk about Greece and the subjects you know about, but please allow me to draw my own conclusions on the subjects i know about, such as the racism-ridden UK.
The problem i have, is not with the criticism of soutehrn Europeans, but with the manner of criticism – (“I’m afraid, anti-semitism is a fact of life in Greece”) as if it’s unique trait among Greeks to be anti-semitic, in total ignorance of our own MUCH BIGGER anti-semitism and racism problems in the UK.
And criticisms of the Greek Police who whacked Teacher Dude for photographing the Police while on a protest march. I made the point that British and American Police will not only give you a smack but will also arrest you for taking pictures of them – photographing the Police is an offence punishable by up to TEN YEARS in prison in the UK. But no-one adressed or commented on the draconian policies and barbaric actions of our own police force. But we talk from our ivory towers about how Portuguese police are too incompetent to solve Maddy McCann’s disappearance, while completely ignoring the thousands of unsolved cases and insititutional racism in our own police force. We criticise southern Europeans for “smoking on duty” while totally ignoring much more significant problems such as our Police force covering their epaulettes so they couldn’t be identified when they smashed and bashed their way through innocent protesters during the G20 riots in London, killing one man who the police claimed had a heart attack but was later found to have a ruptured stomach as a result of a police beating. http://www.socialist.net/g20-r.....tander.htm
When Greek police kill a protestor it’s a sign of a general southern european Police barbarsim and inadequacy, but when a British police officer kills a protestor it’s an unfortunate accident and is largely glossed over by Brits on this blog. Hypocrisy and double standards at their finest.
I fear that some people are criticisng the actions of a small European country with a typically British sanctimonious arrogance. Some of us Brits love looking down on people, instead of admitting and addressing our own much more historic and embedded bigotry. Four British posters preferred to leave this blog when i confronted them with the racist generalisations they used against Greeks on this blog. They moved onto other blogs where they can freely criticise the Portuguese, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards (“PIGS” countries) in a bigotted and condescending manner without being challenged by people like me.
In fact, we were too busy ripping into Greeks on this human rights blog, criticising the unfortunate beating up of a TV journalist while a MUCH LARGER HUMAN CATASTROPHE and DESTRUCTIVE WAR in Palestine was taking place and being COMPLETELY IGNORED by this blog. I had to remind DD to post a thread on a war which killed over 700 women and children. And the worst part of it is, some people came on saying that we shouldn’t talk about the humanitarian disaster in palestine – that this blog should be about Greece! Fair enough, then why did we have a thread about Barack Obama’s inauguration, not to mention the other non-Greece related threads?
I think that the human rights perspective on this blog risks being lost in our zeal to highlight Greek indiscretions. Yes, we should highlight the problems in Greece and people like DD are doing a thankless and spuperb job in highlighting these issues but this shouldn’t happen in an offensive way using generalisations or at the expense of much more significant human rights issues happenning in the world.
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for enough good people to turn a blind eye to the MUCH LARGER and MORE PRESSING problems in the world, many of which, are being perpetrated by our own countries, the richest most developed countries in the world.
@Michael Scowcroft
and I thank you for reminding me about threads that I have “promised” and forgotten or been late in delivering.
But I just have to say, that this blog is dedicated to Human Rights issues in Greece and that I (I’m just one person… with no paid minions!) cannot possibly deal with all the human rights abuses that occur all over the world.
The fact that I am British and living in Greece by choice and as an expat HAS been an issue for some people reading this blog. I understand that but as some people have pointed out, I come from a position of love for this country and a (small)commitment to making it better for ALL its citizens, old and new. Sounds trite but that’s where I’m coming from.
I totally understand that there are bigger and more urgent issues coming from my own country and other rich developed countries but I have always thought that Greece could do BETTER than to follow down that path. Anyway… most people that comment here now and in the past are not British expats so the argument is a bit moot.
The point is that human rights abuses in Greece are not going unnoticed just because it’s a small country and not as bad as everywhere else. That’s all.
DD, what was your motivation in naming this blog:
“THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY”?
Is there an element of truth in the suggestion that your title is borne out of this sentiment: “This is not my country, i don’t want to associate myself with such a racist, homophobic, sexist country, i’m British after all”? If not, then what were your motivations for choosing such a negative, angry and provocative title?
@Micheal
Goodness. It was a long time ago (almost four years) and it came from the title of a song I wrote. And nothing like
I am sincerely sorry that people find the title of my blog negative, angry and provocative NOW but it was not my intent at the beginning. Seriously, when I started this blog I never thought it would be read by so many people so I put little thought into the name. Now I really like it because it’s ambiguous. Many Greek readers have also told me that it rings true for them because the issues make this country become “not their country any more”
I know what they mean. And I know what you mean.
I hope this explains something if not all! Please email me if this is not clear.
Michael Scowcroft:
For me what is telling is that Devious Diva’s is one of the perhaps two or three blogs that I know of that deal with the plight of Roma people in Greece. It is telling because if you ask the Greeks whether Greek society is racist they will tell you “no more than European countries” (meaning the UK or Germany); if you ask them if they themselves are racist, they will tell you “certainly not, we’re all equal”; but in our everyday life we crush people like the Roma underfoot everyday and not even think of it as racist. For example, we freely use the expression “gyftos” (“gypo”) to mean “filthy” and never even make the connection of the use of that word with the situation of Roma people in Greece. Just try telling Greeks to stop using this word like that, or in any other way- you’ll get the same rant about “freedom of expression”, “language variety” and “political correctness gone wild” that you’d get from any Mail or Sun reader in little England if you told them they should stop calling Irish travellers “pikies” and so on.
The phrase you quote as paternalism against Greeks is unfortunately true. Antisemitism, in fact racism, and every known variety of institutionalised prejudice is a fact of life in Greece. What changes if it’s a Greek who says that, or if it is a British ex-pat? So it’s a fact of life in the UK also. What does that change? The people who criticise Greece for human rights violations may turn a blind eye on their own country’s violations. Sure, so do Greeks who critisize Israel’s or China’s human rights violations. Unfortunately, it’s the biggots and the nationalists who first pay lip service to human rights in order to advance their agendas. One reason is that they can’t seriously believe that there are people who really want rights for everyone. And they’re not that wrong on that. Most people find it hard to get over the prejudice and the xenophobia we’re brought up with. Hey- that includes me. If I hadn’t suddendly found myself part of a marginalised minority, I doubt I’d ever have cared about human rights. I had privilege, entitlement- why should I care abour rights? Especially others’?
Devious Diva lives in Greece and she speaks of the situation in Greece. Should she compare it to the situation in the UK? I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t even think it’s possible. It’s apples and pears. I often criticise British people, and my Greek friends who live here often tell me “you mean it’s better back home?” Well, it isn’t, but right now I’m here, in the UK and the situation in the UK worries me. Of course I’m also worried about the situation in Greece, but I don’t compare the two. When I talk about the UK, I talk about the UK, when I talk about Greece, I talk about Greece. I don’t reckon things are different in any country in the world. rejudice borne of ignorance is not a problem of cultures or ethnicities- it’s a problem of the species.
In the end, any comparison between two categories of people, can only have two conclusions: one, that people are different, or, two that people are the same. I’ve found that the ultimate goal of arguments that reach the first conclusion always turns out to be to prove that one category is better than the other. I think, if you really pursue a human rights agenda, then you should be focusing on the second goal, showing how we are all the same, even if it means pointing out our common flaws. I’m just not sure you are pointing at such a common flaw when you present British ex-pats as nationally arrogant, if you compare their arrogance to that of the people of “small” Greece. I’m sorry to say I also detect just a hint of national arrogance in your outrage also. Greeks rarely describe Greece as “small” anymore- not since the days of the German invasion (and Churchill’s dithyrambs, btw).
I remind you: we Greeks gave the lights of civilisation to the barbarians. Craddle of civilisation, Greece, innit? What can be more conceited, arrogant and conducive to prejudice than that?
(OK, I’ll give you that: “largest empire of all times, the Brittish Empire, innit?” can go toe to toe with it…)
I’m afraid that when two peoples’ overblown self-importance is clashing, no side is the right side.
[err... sorry about the size of this... too much time on my hands.]
Damn. I used “borne” in a completely incorrect way there dinn’I?
Stassa, you make valid points – It’s not the highlighting of human rights issues in Greece that I have a problem with, but some of the comments in this blog by some British (and American posters) have been downright offensive. I’ll find you some specific examples and perhaps you too will be able to identify and recognise the totally unnacceptable double-speak and arrogance of some British (and American) posters. It’s no coincidence that most of these posters have left this blog when i confronted them about their offensive generalisations and bigotted viewpoints. Maybe i overeact sometimes but i cannot accept people accusing others of being racist or anti-semitic while they make racist comments about the people they are accusing! I will not stand quietly by while these crypto-racists launch abusive diatribes and generalisations against a whole nation or group of people because of Greece’s treatment of immigrants/asylum seekers when our own house isn’t exactly in order. I will not accept British bigots pouring scorn on poorer countries’ attitudes to immigration and making vile ethnicity-based generalisations while ignoring our own country’s abysmal record of asylum for refugees from wars WE CREATED. I cannot accept the double standards and hypocrisy prevalent in many of the posts i’ve read on this blog from british (and American) posters. i will give you specific examples (give me some timwe) and you will not fail to identify the undeniable double standards and hypocrisy of these people.
British racism is embedded in almost every facet of our culture – most of us are xenophobic to the core. Let’s not pretend we have any moral authority to speak condescendingly to the wonderfully warm, friendly and hospitable southern European people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
My father was in the US Army in 1950 here in Greece and saw the Marshall plan in full swing, giving hungry people in Greece food, blankets and other sundries. He tells me they were very grateful for that. Unfortunately, as a person of color (my mother is African) living in Greece, I encounter hostility and mean looks from people in Athens. Sometimes to make myself feel better, I remind them that my Father helped feed hungry people in 1950 with the Marshall Plan (in Omonia square no less) so maybe they should be a bit kinder to immigrants like me since they were once in similar situations in their own country.
(^That’s exactly the kind of sanctimonious “holier-than-thou” attitude i’m talking about)
It’s a variation of the same racist theme:
“fair-minded and superior whites helping the destitute and ungrateful southern European savages”
“Ungrateful greasy Mexicans/Greeks/Spics/Degos/ biting the hand that feeds them”
“We tried to civilise them but they refused to better themselves”
BTW Smitty, are you George under yet another pseudonym? Your sneaking racism follows similar patterns as his.
Smitty, so you stayed in Greece after your father’s military service? You must have lived in Greece for a very long time (since the 1950s). We can learn alot from your experiences.
You must have some very specific examples of racism you and your African mother encountered while in Greece.
Please be more specific about the “hostility” you encountered in Greece, tell us what was said and by whom, you know, place names, circumstances (marketplace, garage, shop…), did they speak to you in English, tell us the exact words exchanged between you and the alleged racists.
Come on Smitty, you’ve had a whole weekend to “come up with” a few stories.
Smitty has never come back to this thread – he refuses to elaborate on incidents of alleged racism which he experienced in Greece. I wonder why?….Could it be that these incidents never happened?
I discovered this post today. Good work, a link will be added to your post, in my 2 recent posts against the Plevris acquittal.
As an aside, I think that perhaps a big problem in Greece is that (locally) the new “Red-Black” national socialism is NOT understood. It deliberately fuses together Fascist and Stalinist ideas. I mean… take a look at this:
http://nbf.rossia3.ru/
(Russian Nazi Bolsheviks)
Now… take a closer look here:
http://mavroskrinos.blogspot.c.....st_04.html
(Greek counterpart of the same International “Red-Black” trend; I picked a specific post, take a look at the whole nazi blog).
Finally, in my third comment I will give you many links to similar sites. The problem is this: That this new MUTATION of nazism is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO IDENTIFY. For example, the appear dressed EXACTLY like anarchists, they smash-up EVERYTHING, and in some of their manifestos (even in Greek) they advocate Full Solidarity with ANYONE violent, ANYONE smashing up everything. I.e. in the case of the Alexis Grigoropoulos riots last December, they were NOT on the side of the Police, but on the side of the rioters, AGAINST the police. They shared the Left’s anger against the murder of Alexis, but… from their own Nazi Red-Black position. The official Mass Media in Greek, most bloggers (99%) and most of the public are still NOT aware of this.
More recently, a violent attack against a Gay bar in Exarheia (Athens)… confused everybody, because nobody understood WHO were these guys, dressed-up like “Mohicans” and anarchists. Even the guys in “Indymedia” got worried in case the attack was launched by hooligans of the left. The truth, may well be VERY different, as I hope you will realize…
So, here we go. MORE links to the new “phenomenon”:
http://anthitoukakou.blogspot.com/
http://faiokokkinometwpo.blogspot.com/
No need to include more. Just follow the links in their blogroll. Believe me, it may be VERY WORTHWHILE, although… infuriating!
I placed this last, in case automatic spam-detection delayed it because of the links included.
Finally, I do NOT accuse the SPECIFIC blogs of doing anything illegal (to be honest). However, their ideas OPENLY advocate what I said. I have also seen some of their videos, stating their solidarity with ANY rioters, for the sake of rioting!
My third comment was mistaken for spam automatically…
It included two links; enough is enough!
Yeah, come on George, we know it’s you!
(SMITTY Eh!!!) good one. You can’t fool Michael and me, we know you’re also Singapore Sling and Dr. House, and XENOS too. Your writing style gives you away.
Now, not wanting to sound too desperate “Smitty” but now you’ve had over 80 hours to come up with an excuse. We’re waiting or are you just going to play this racist game with us?
Michael, why do we put up with these racists?
I returned to this post, in case something interesting cropped up, and I was perplexed by the last comment by “Hendrie” (April 27, 2009 at 6:40 pm).
Well, I am _certainly_ not “Smitty”! Of course… there are millions of Georges out there, and if we formed a Solidarity Pact with the Johns in Greece, we might even form a majority government.
However, I am NOT interested in governments.
Anyways, WHO are those racist guys you loathe putting up with?
Just give me names, I will perform Secret Magic, and they will wither away! haha
@DeviousDiva,
As regards the Plevris Acquittal,
the most recent post about it is
http://omadeon.wordpress.com/2.....f-justice/
…and the previous post was
http://omadeon.wordpress.com/2.....i-justice/
After a LOT of days full of hard work AND…. blogging madly, I am about to add links to your posts, at last.
I really haven’t read EVERYTHING in your blog, to be able to check various wild claims made here…
But I do read it often enough to know that the criticisms you make can often be useful for improving Greece.
It is really quite boring to deal with all the paranoia that you are “anti-Greek”. And… even if you were, SO WHAT? Nothing much would change, except different arguments would be in order.
just checking in on my emails etc and have to say LOL to you all! I am really busy with other things and taking a break. Please don’t hurt each other!
@omadeon Thank you!
Mr. Michael Scowcroft, i congratulate you, because you are a follower of the TRUTH. Your positions are honest, which is something VERY hard to come across in today’s leftist positions. I am really happy to read your HONEST posts in this blog, because i too have witnesed this disguised racism of anglosaxon posters against Greece. I suggest to you to move to Greece permanently if you believe that Southern European people are warm, nice, etc. You are not fitted to live in evil Britain, because, let’s face it, you people are the worst, you and the Americans, even the Nazis are “boyscouts” compared to what anglosaxons have done on the face of this planet! But, not you Mr. Scowcroft, you are a foreigner i would be glad to have living on Greek soil, and saying that should count for something because, believe me, i DONT like foreigners. And i say that not because you stand up for Greeks by what you said, but because you are for the TRUTH.
Mr. Travlos, you on the other hand are a sorry excuse of a Greek-named AMERICAN, sorry…
Omadeon, you never did post that ONE AND ONLY comment of mine in a single post of yours, in your god forsaken blog, did you? Damn, how did you find this blog? I hope you will not start here with the same numbers you were pulling with the Pontian Left Idiots, trying to convince them through 100+ comments that the traitorous scumbag Kostopoulos is something more than a piece of.. human digested and processed food? LOL! Go back to your beach to play, please!
“Smitty says:
My father was in the US Army in 1950 here in Greece and saw the Marshall plan in full swing, giving hungry people in Greece food, blankets and other sundries. He tells me they were very grateful for that.”
Food, blankets and sundries? Why don’t you stick them where the sun does not shine in the winter? How about some pieces of GREEK LAND, like Northern Epirus, you American hypocrite? You speak as though Greeks were not a part of the Allies, fighting the Axis. We didn’t get what we deserved, as part of the WINNERS of the war. Instead, Axis collaborators, like the Albanians and the Bulgarians, tried to keep their advances. As for Turkey, WELL WELL WELL, our good “american allies” became best friends with Turkey, while Turkey stayed neutral during the war, and treated Greece, the “ally” like a puppet state, regarding Greco-Turkish relations and the American overlords watching them from above..
A final word, on the “Roma”, or as are commonly called here in Greece, the Gypsies. I normally wouldn’t care to write info on that subject, but i do, for non-Greek people like Mr Scowcroft to read and maybe learn a thing or two. Now, i really do not understand what is DeviousDiva’s obsession with the Roma and i dont really care as a matter of fact. I m just going to point out the simple fact, that: “Roma” people, the Gypsies residing in Greece, are a population that LIVES THE WAY IT CHOOSES. They CHOOSE to live in the kind of “houses” they live in, they CHOOSE to live with the hygiene conditions they live by, they CHOOSE not to serve the compulsory military service for males in the country, they CHOOSE to NOT live and behave as Greeks. So, what is the problem? Where is the “racism” towards them? Maybe DeviousDiva would be happy if all Greeks adopted the “Roma” way of life??? Is this what we have to do? Lol, abandon our houses and dress up in rags, wash once a year and live primitively? So since these people are the way they are BY THEIR FREE CHOICE, i don’t understand WHAT the problems is. I ll tell you what the problem is, dear readers. It is in their freedom of CHOICE actually. Because they also CHOOSE to grow and sell drugs, namely large quantities of marijuana, they CHOOSE to cripple their children (of who they have a dozen each family) and then send them to the streets as beggars, they CHOOSE to steal, and as officials have claimed, the majority of unsolved CRIMES in Greece INCLUDING MURDER AND KIDNAPING (of children mainly) is attributed to the “Roma”, to the Gypsies. That is what the problem is.
Nemesist,
I live in Portugal for six months of the year (and I have lived in southern Europe for many years) and in my experience, there are no more warmer and friendlier people than those in Southern Europe. Far from being the xenophobic and racist people they are portrayed by some people on this blog, my experience is that Portuguese, Italians, Spaniards and Greeks are the most WELCOMING and HOSPITABLE people i’ve ever come across.
And many Brits are the most UNFRIENDLY, XENOPHOBIC and INHOSPITABLE people i’ve ever come across – we Brits have no moral authority to criticise ANYONE especially given our record and prevalent racist attiutdes in the UK (and we shouldn’t be criticisng anyone with our hypocritical holier-than-thou condescending attitudes).
As for the Roma, I do not know much about their preferred lifestyle but DD has highlighted a number of failings on the part of the Greek government which has negatively affected the Roma community in Greece. I do some work for animal welfare charities but wish i could do more to help disadvantaged people – I really admire the work of people like DD who are going out of their way to help people and communities who are being mistreated.
DD, how did you become involved in working to improve the rights of the Roma community in Greece? I take it you were involved with improving the dire conditions of the travelling “Gypsy” communities in the UK before you went to Greece?
Mr. Scowcroft, there have been you know, instances of the state freely providing ready houses to local Gypsy settlements. You understand that the state would not say no to new inhabitants that work, pay their taxes, etc. So they provided houses to them, but the Gypsies REFUSED to live in normal houses and stayed at their settlements!!! Now, lets assume i have no problem with the way the live (i do, mainly for reasons of public hygiene), they practically DO NOT WANT to have anything to do with the way the majority of Greek people live in their own country. It is the Roma’s CHOICE! What more can be done?
BUT, when special police units, armed to the teeth (because they had to), invaded a Gypsy settlement where massive quantities of marijuana were daily sold by the “innocent and maltreated Roma”, then the images on TV were used by some leftists to speak about “fasism”, “terrible opression of the Gypsies”, “police brutality” and the like.
Can you imagine, a Gypsy who practically lives in garbage cans, wearing extremely expensive golden jewelry? Where did the money for that came from? Now a very very small percentage of Roma in Greece actually at some point did begin to live inside normal houses and maybe do normal jobs. I don’t have a problem with those. But the others living on the streets i do have a problem with, because everyone inside a sum of people must offer something to the community. All these people offer is crime, and then demand public health by visiting the public hospitals, endangering normal patients, because of their hyigenaecally decadent “lifestyle”.
DD has some weird, i would call it “romantic” obsession with these people. It seems like a problem-free european who sees a gypsy child in a postcard and thinks “oh, this poor poor child”… but of course reality is NOT that simple and is much more cynical.
Just as a reminder, THIS post is NOT about generalizations that concern Greek people (and whether or not they are so and so) but about a court’s acquittal of a Nazi author, who broke specific Greek and international laws, inciting his readers to very serious racial hatred and absolutely murderous acts of violence.
So, the previous comment’s longish babble full of hate and rather extreme slander, flaming and name-calling, disguised in puerile literary fluffiness, is quite simply OFF-TOPIC (apart from being revoltingly insulting).
Furthermore, the person who commented, has indulged in repeated blatant lies, that can be proved and verified through simple textual comparison and elementary text-comprehension.
However, I was NOT aware that this slanderer (“Nemesist”) had commented at all, in my blog, in the past or that his comment “did not appear”. As a rule, I never censor anybody, unless in very extreme cases of… content-free abuse, which admittedly I _have_ stopped, very occasionally and very few times. The only previous comment I found (and NOT censored) by the same person in my blog, is the following bag… of insults, hurled against people from FYROM (in general), about a year ago:
Well, I did NOT censor this bag of nationalist filth, nor did I censor similar (or worse) kinds of rubbish written by “enemy nationalists”.
As regards my so-called “defense” of Greek author Kostopoulos, in the “Greek Pontian Idiots blog”, as Nemesist called it, it was NOT a defense of Kostopoulos himself, with whom I don’t always agree (and in fact also disagree strongly about certain issues, with him) but a defense of simple values like dignity and avoidance of slander, such as the kind habitually used by “Nemesist” both here and elsewhere.
P.S. I was referring to the comment made by “Nemesist” (bag full of hate deified) on:
May 2, 2009 at 6:54 pm.
In which the following passage concerned me:
Well, I happen to disagree with author Kostopoulos, but I would NEVER call anyone SO easily “a piece of human digested and processed food”, NOT would I ever argue against Slav-Macedonian ultra-nationalists by suggesting to them repeatedly that they are nothing but Monkeys (in the mentality of… Greek Goods like us -hehe).
Finally, I did NOT “discover” this blog now, but more than a year ago (and commented at that time), nor did I censor that piece of racist excrement calling Slav-Macedonians monkeys, when it was made in my blog.
All the rest is… toothpaste. I suggest that Nemesist tells us WHAT he thinks of the Plevris acquittal, and IF he is in favour of Plevris, I would not be surprised at all. Birds of a feather flock together…
P.S.2 “NOT” should be replaced by “NOR”. (fast-typing disease -hehe_
(and also “Greek Goods” should read “Greek Gods”!) a ha ha…
Well well well, omadeon, how touching of you to remember that comment of mine more than a year ago, i am really flattered. You do not mention what the Skopians did write just above that comment of mine, but of course, why would a traitorous fan of Kostopoulos like you do that?
I dont believe it is fair to call me a racist, after all i DID say i apologize to the monkeys for comparing them with Skopians, after all monkeys have offered a tremendous service to humankind, especially the advancement of human medicinal science, with their use as test subjects, in finding ways to cure human diseases. This is much more than one can claim the Skopians have offered.
Sure, omadeon, sure, you NEVER censor anything from your “democratic” blog, just like the Pontian Idiots claim, i m sure for their own. But your stalinist psychotic minds simply cannot resist the authoritarian need to “crush” down those national voices. You see, i m half Pontian myself, the other half from Ionia, and i sometimes read the Pontians. The only thing i ll give you credit for, is that you did feel correct about the Pontians, despite what the stalinist psychos at that blog claim (see: would like to believe), there are indeed Pontians today, who could not be called exactly “left-wingers”, if you know what i mean.. sorry, we can’t help it dude, it is history that made us what we are, and the Future that will give us ..vengeance. You know what i mean, right?
How are your trance remixes of Thodorakis goin? Bet you don’t get many remarks of admiration for those in your blog, eh?
As for your questions, i am an admirer of Pleyris, i believe he has done a lot for national ideals, probably more than anyone else in his generation, although he is a bit on the wild side. Well, no one is perfect, right boyo?
The traitorous Greek Neo-Nazi Plevris-sympathizer, habitual mud-slayer and pathological lyer @Nemesist, excreted thusly:
1)
Then, don’t be surprised to get the VERY worst, from me, from now on EVERY time I see you, in ANY blog, excreting your stuff, BE PREPARED to be naned and IDENTIFIED as a Neo-Nazi;
You are aso a TRAITOR of ALL the values reasonable Greeks LOVE, including democracy, freedom from the junta and fascism, etc.
Need I remind you of what the Pontians ALREADY told you, even though they had no idea you ARE an authentic Nazi-sympathizer?
2)
My remarks:
a) BEFORE uttering your favourite insults and piles of slander, CHECK the VALIDITY and PLAUSIBILITY of your wild claims, first.
b) I proved you a lyer yestersay; I don’t have to prove you, now. You ALREADY proved youself an absolute lyer, today.
Go figure out WHY! If you also suffer from a pathologicallu low I. then… sorry I can’t help. Go and see a doctor about it.
a) Wrong bet. I ALREADY got plenty of admiration F.W.I.W. but I do not feel surprised that an AUTHENTIC Neo-Nazi idiot like yourself, who loves Plevris, would allow himself to FEEL real admiration for ANYONE (but himself).
b) Widely read blog-posts CAN have very few (or no) comments; whether or not people comment, is NOT a function of how good a post is, but mostly a result of their own wish to comment, e.g. because of controversy or strong opinion. (I forgot however, that being a Total Neo-nazi idiot you haven’t realized this).
P.S. corrections: (need a new keyboard I think -hehe)
“BE PREPARED to be naned and IDENTIFIED as a Neo-Nazi”
->
“BE PREPARED to be named and IDENTIFIED as a Neo-Nazi”
“pathologicallu low I.”-> “pathologically low I.Q.”
[...] Reactions to Plevris Acquittal [...]
What’s the matter boyo? Got so excited you can’t write 2 paragraphs without making spelling mistakes? Come on, you can do better than that. Pull yourself together.
Well Omadeon, i m sorry, but you re not getting the oscar for the Theodorakis trance mix, not this year at least, hahahahahaha
You sad pseudo-leftist politically correct himbanjee, why don’t you try Angela Dimitriou in the mix perhaps. I see you do not waste any time, your stalinist little mind follows the known path… “neo-nazi”, “racist”, etc.. why don’t you stop yelling little grecophone monkey? I never said i am a neo-nazi, that is what YOU claim. All i said is that i admire Pleyris for his work and for his knowledge. I also admire Che Guevara. How about that? I never said i was a racist, either. A nationalist, maybe.
“the values all reasonable Greeks love, like democracy, freedom from the junta and fascism..” LOL, funny stuff!
“freedom from the junta” is a value, my little monkey? Lol, i guess it is, a value that gets you inside parliament munching on the Greek people’s fortune for the next 30 years. Right Omad-monkeyman? Democracy is in our days nothing more than plutocracy, a filthy decadent criminal economic oligarchy, as the Teacher(Pleyris) so brilliantly has analysed it in his books, including his last one.
How do you like living in a country where Pleyris is free to speak his mind, eh? Why don’t you request from Kostopoulos to work with him in his Ios place, you are of the same kind i m sure. Just hide these Theodorakis trance remixes, cause i think they will cost you that job if he ever sees your blog!
Hope you appreciate the fact that you live in a Free Speech country.
“Nemesist” is NOT the only Greek neo-nazi saying that he is “not a nazi”, while effectively excreting everywhere, inside the net, yet another mutated variant of classical National Socialism, mixed with his own “Hellenic Superiority” ideas and a well-known Crusade-like Internet-related Persecution Mania.
“Nemesist” is a Standard Troll in many blogs, trying to “save Greece” from the “traitors” (and the anti-hellenic Jews) where “traitors” is anyone becoming his target in virtual wars that boost his sense of identity (weakened because of globalisation).
However, Nemesist is NO LESS a nazi (compared to a “real nazi”) than… Otto Strasser was a real Nazi compared to Hitler. The true essence, i.e. the ideological CORE of Strasser’s ideology was to keep the electoral promises of “national socialism”, or a “people’s movement”, exactly like Plevris claims for Greece (explicitly applauding the “true” German National Soialists).
At some point, in fact, during his loooong Internet Crusade, this troll confused people in the “Pontos & Aristera” blog, who could not understand his position very well. When innocent people there concluded that he must be a Golden Dawn defender (Golden Dawn = Chrisi Avgi, a Greek NeoNazi political group) he vehemently denied this, while O.T.O.H. claiming (interestingly) that he would like the Golden Dawn guys to be “de-germanized”, to forget all the stuff that doesn’t fit in with Hellenism, etc.
(but… rest assured, these guys are Good guys, Patriots, etc).
To dispell any doubts, I might even collect all the evidence, writing up a special post, about this troll called “Nemesist” and about other Don Quixote-like Ultra-Nationalists or Nazis.
P.S.
Here are SAMPLES of Nemesist’s abusive Net-nazi “career”:
1) As regards the “Golden Dawn” (Chrisi Avgi) NeoNazi group:
[...]
(in “-Ömer Asan. Μια συνέντευξη”, pontosandaristera blog).
1) Nemesist advocates Ethnic Cleansing to create a Greek State in today’s… Turkey, but expresses it in a… most amusing way:
NOTE: My comment (now):
)
-κι ααααν δεεεν τους πείσουμε? κι αν δεεεν? (hehe
[...]
[...]
3) In favour of Karatzaferis (of “LAOS” ultra-right political party), while also advocating… “DEATH for all Anarchists” (but cleverly denying support for fascism; yeah right…) and also refusing to discuss known violent crimes committed by his… friends (X.A.):
(entire comment, NOTHING ommitted)
Vulgar abuse by “Nemesist” against a respected writer and blogger called “Nosferatos” (with Libertarian Left ideas):
Well, following INCESSANT ABUSE and systematic slander against almost everyone (but the ultra-right) this troll, “nemesist” (also known as “takis”) was BANNED in the Pontians’ Blog. A short announcement about this ban was posted on on the 11th of April 2008, by the (collective-)blog’s Moderator (Omer):
P.S.2 to VERIFY that these extracts are correct, just pick a few long phrases and use them in advanced Goodle Search, while keeping the word “nemesist” as a permanent extra AND-condition. (I didn’t give links to avoid automatic moderation).
P.S.3
As regards Nemesist’s abuse against other countries, especially “Monkeydonia” (FYROM), I never denied that THEIR abuse (i.e. the abuse spewed by FYROM’s extremists) was actually WORSE than Nemesist’s. A simple Google search will verify it, and I don’t deny that “they started first” (in one of my earlier quotes).
However, it turns out that it doesn’t matter so much: Nemesist’s pathological NEED to insult his opponents led him to use the same abusive terminology (of “monkey”) in various ways, unilaterally, e.g. against… me, as well!
So, one BIG difference between (most) non-Greek extremists and slanderous Greek nazis or nazi-sympathizers (like Nemesist) is the total lack of respect of the latter against.. fellow Greeks!
It turns out that this “ultra-nationalism” is also an EXCUSE for attacking _other Greeks_; demeaning them in every way, in order to boost the abuser’s own (weak?) ego! Extremists from other countries attack their own compatriots less much often;
I think this is a fact (and a possible topic of Net research).
Samples:
Yeah, right! ALL we need is “THE teacher”, Plevris, to state the… obvious truths, above (also said by us… lefties)!
)
Apparently, nemesist is a DEVOTED fan of Plevris “the Teacher”:
Oh, Yes: Nemesist LOVES the junta. But WHO said that *I* belong to any party, or have ambitions for the… Greek parliament?
Yeah, right! Plevris was in fact an ACTIVE COLLABORATOR of the Greek colonels’ Junta, in the late sixties and early seventies; as well as an Honourary Professor in the International NeoNazi and militarist cliques of Guadalajara University (Mexico). Ah well, if only he’d stop e.g. speaking out in favour of Hitler, then he wouldn’t be “on the wild side”, but a “True Teacher” ™ of True Hellenes!
Sieg Heil!
Finally, sometimes “from a child or a lunatic one gets the plain truth”. Here is a most amusing… confession by Nemesist:
Oh yessss, I do!
And the psycho’s essence is Vengeance; hence the name “Nemesis”.
Τς τς, πόσο καραγκιόζης είσαι ρε Omadeon? Απορώ μαζί σου, όλη μέρα κάθεσαι στο pc και ασχολείσαι με τις μαλακίες που ασχολείσαι; Τέλος πάντων, ας απαντήσω στα αγγλικά στις μαλακίες που αράδιασες:
““Nemesist” is NOT the only Greek neo-nazi saying that he is “not a nazi”, while effectively excreting everywhere, inside the net, yet another mutated variant of classical National Socialism, mixed with his own “Hellenic Superiority” ideas and a well-known Crusade-like Internet-related Persecution Mania.”
I dont understand, why do i suffer from “persecution mania”?
““Nemesist” is a Standard Troll in many blogs,”
And which blogs are these, great investigator? Lol, i ve only posted once in your god forsaken blog, and i was trying to discuss with the Pontian psychos, untill their stalinist reflexes finally took over by banning me.
“trying to “save Greece” from the “traitors””
thats right, omadmonkey, and there are a LOT of those in Greece..
” that boost his sense of identity (weakened because of globalisation).”
No, idiot, it is not my “Ego” that is “weakened by globalisation” it is the physical and mental existence of me and my people that is litterally and methodically destroyed day after day by this kind of economic globalisation. “My people” excludes professional “anti-racist/fascist” new world order thought police himbanjees such as yourself of course.
“Yes: Nemesist LOVES the junta. But WHO said that *I* belong to any party, or have ambitions for the… Greek parliament?”
Did i mention anything about my positions on the junta? No i didnt. I also was not referring to you, you unimportant little self-righteous blogger. I was referring to the people that practically made that big step in democracy, sinking our country to corruption for the last 30-40 years.
As for your analysis, you imbecile, do you think i am bothered if monkeys like you categorize me as a Golden Dawn symbathiser or simply as an independent national socialist, or simply a nationalist? These are ideologies and political theories that are perfectly accepted by my standards, so either way, it doesnt really matter what the outcome of your “analysis” will be. In the Pontian blog i was simply trying to make my views clear to them, but of course they didnt really care, in doesnt make such a difference in their stalinist little minds.
As for me being racist, i already said it: i am sorry for being racist. I apologize to the MONKEY species, for the way i have been using their name, because humankind owes tremendous gratitude to these creatures, for their services in the advancement of medical science and battling human diseases. I differentiate between races of people, so there is nothing else i should feel sorry about.
By the way, i hope Theodorakis does not find your blog by chance, because he will surely leave this world a bit earlier that he would, if he listens to your trance remixes.
Ρε Τραυλέ, άντε ρε τράβα να αλλάξει το όνομά σου πρώτα. Γελοίε! ‘Ωστε ήσουν Αλεξανδρούπολη ε; Που; Στη Λέσχη Αξιωματικών φαντάζομαι βρωμόβυσμα ε; Το που υπηρέτησα και που όχι θα το συζητήσω με πραγματικούς Έλληνες, όχι με τύπους που λένε αυτά που γράφεις εσύ εδώ μέσα. Ήσουν και εύζωνας; Και γράφεις τέτοιες μαλακίες, ότι οι Έλληνες κάνανε εθνοκάθαρση το 21; Ά γαμήσου από δω πέρα.. Το χρέος είναι εφ όρου ζωής και καθημερινή υποχρέωση προς την πατρίδα, δεν είναι 12 μήνες αγγαρείας και ψευτοεκπαίδευσης (όπως έχει καταντήσει ο στρατός), με απώτερο σκοπό φυσικά το να αφήσεις κάτι ΚΑΛΥΤΕΡΟ και ΑΞΙΟΤΕΡΟ, στα παιδιά σου, στις επόμενες γενιές του ΕΘΝΟΥΣ. Αλλά που να τα καταλάβει αυτά ένας καταναλωτής.
Νεμεσίστα, Τσογλανάκι και….Εκδικητή του ΚΩΛΟΥ, άσε τα σάπια και ΜΗ βρίζεις επώνυμους και θαρραλέους όπως ο σχολιαστής κ. Τραβλός.
Είσαι ΕΛΛΗΝ ΕΞΩΤΕΡΙΚΟΥ και ΠΟΛΥ ηλίθιος ΚΑΙ φανατίλας, fan του Νεοναζιστή Πλεύρη που τον θεωρείς μεγάλο “Δάσκαλο” (ίσως “τον σημαντικότερο της γενιάς του” κλπ).
Αντε και χώσου στην τρύπα σου ή βρες τους ΔΙΚΟΥΣ ΣΟΥ εδώ
http://web.archive.org/web/200.....p-info.tk/
Dear @DeviousDiva,
I have some serious problems accessing your site; it causes crashes related to “amazonews.com”. So I am reposting this from another browser; if you ALREADY saw it appearing, please remove the OTHER copy of the same comment:
NeoNazi-Plevris-Devotee Nemesist spewed thusly:
No problem, racist dude! WHERE is your OWN blog then? …as a kind of MINIMAL prerequisite to… QUALIFY as a civilized being, and “not one of these inferior monkeys”?
(As a MINIMAL proof that you HAVE created SOMETHING of value, HOWEVER LITTLE, as a contribution to HUMAN civilisation?) huh?
Well, it is your known…. STANDARD asshole behaviour, to demean ALL your (disagreeing) compatriots, according to the Axiom “ΙΣΧΥΣ ΜΟΥ Η ΜΕΙΩΣΗ ΤΗΣ ΑΞΙΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΑΛΛΟΥ”.
However, FOR THE RECORD, you serious misinform people here, in a serious issue, about which you are -probably- _completely clueless_, i.e.
-Mikis Theodorakis HIMSELF has listened extensively to ALL my trance remixes of his music, we have met twice for several hours each time. >He has ALSO signed an OFFICIAL LETTER expressing his admiration of this work AND his approval of it.
Anyone bothering to dive into my music site for a few minutes will ALSO discover a scanned copy of his signed personal letter:
http://www.soundclick.com/omadeon
There are, however, some _problems_:
1) The absolutely ruthless attitude AGAINST Mikis and his Orchestra by the Greek state, depriving the Orchestra from state funds (that would allow them to cooperate with my VERY MINOR contribution to the variety of works derived from Mikis’ music)….
2) The mysterious silence of SOME of Mikis’ collaborators, who have for a long time avoided answering my phone-calls, after a certain point…. DESPITE the fact that he explicitly asked them to take a strong interest in these remixes and help me actively (both in writing AND in speech). I TEND to suspect that some people in Mikis’ environment are NOT in favour of the remixes, or of me personally, for some reason (irrelevant here). However, I also have to earn a living as a programmer, I blog a lot, and have had little time to deal with all this, till now.
So,
Perhaps it’s time to start again, then…
Well, NOT EVERYONE hates trance music (or my own remixes); and CERTAINLY NOT… Mikis himself, about whom there are MANY posts in my blog, as well as his own positive statements about it…
“Νεμεσίστα, Τσογλανάκι και….Εκδικητή του ΚΩΛΟΥ, άσε τα σάπια και ΜΗ βρίζεις επώνυμους και θαρραλέους όπως ο σχολιαστής κ. Τραβλός.”
Τι λε ρε μπαγλαμά, καραγκιόζη μπλόγκερ, άχρηστε, θα βρίζω όποιον γουστάρω, ειδικά κάτι μπουχέσες σαν και σένα. Άμα θες τα λέμε κι από κοντά να σου σπάσω το κεφάλι, φιρφιρίκο.
“Είσαι ΕΛΛΗΝ ΕΞΩΤΕΡΙΚΟΥ και ΠΟΛΥ ηλίθιος ΚΑΙ φανατίλας, fan του Νεοναζιστή Πλεύρη που τον θεωρείς μεγάλο “Δάσκαλο” (ίσως “τον σημαντικότερο της γενιάς του” κλπ).”
‘Ελα ρε, είμαι Έλλην εξωτερικού και δεν το ξερα;; Και σε ποια χώρα μένω, μεγάλε Σέρλοκ Χολμς; Λολ, μα τι ΜΑΛΑΚΑΣ ρε πούστη μου είναι αυτός; Δε μου λες, το διάβασες το τελευταίο βιβλίο του Πλεύρη; Έχεις διαβάσει κανένα βιβλίο του;
“Αντε και χώσου στην τρύπα σου”
..or what?
ΤΙ θα γίνει αλλιώς ρε μπαγλαμά;
Να θυμάσαι ότι απλά γράφω υπέρ ενός Έλληνα πολίτη που εκφράζεται νομίμως και δικαιωματικώς μέσα στο καθεστώς δημοκρατίας που ζούμε και που αθωώθηκε πρόσφατα μετά από συκοφαντίες διάφορων αλλοεθνών, και ημεδαπών κουκουλοφόρων. ΜΗΝ ΤΟ ΞΕΧΝΑΣ ΑΥΤΟ. Πλεύρης – Εβραίοι=1-0. ΜΗΝ ΤΟ ΞΕΧΝΑΣ φιρφιρίκο!
Οπωσδήποτε ΔΕΝ ξεχνιέται η αθώωση του Πλεύρη,
διότι -ορίστε το ΑΠΟΤΕΛΕΣΜΑ- αποθρασσύνει ΕΛΕΕΙΝΟΥΣ και ΑΣΥΝΕΙΔΗΤΟΥΣ νεοναζί τραμπούκους όπως ο Τσογλανοεκδικητής Νεμεσίστας.
Αμα κάνετε τη χώρα ναζιστική, ίσως καταλάβουν ορισμένοι ΠΟΥ το πάτε. Ομως… χλωμό βλέπω να το καταφέρνετε. Εχει ο καιρός γυρίσματα. Και ο κόσμος μάτια.
κύριε Τραυλέ,
ας μου επιτραπεί ένας… ασήμαντος αστεϊσμός, που σας αδικεί κάπως.
ΔΕΝ ΕΙΣΘΕ ΚΑΘΟΛΟΥ ΤΡΑΥΛΟΣ.
ΕΙΣΘΕ ΚΥΡΙΟΣ.
Ο νοών νοείτω… αχαχαχα
I would like to apologize for not posting the last two posts in English. But somethings need to be told in Greek. I know that this is hijacking the thread, and I do apologize for it. But I do not walk away from insults.
I wonder, Travlos, now that Emetist knows you’re a tall, strong lad (having been an evzon) if he’s going to challenge you to meet face to face so he can bash your head in like he challenged omadeon. Whom, being a programmer, he must assume is flabby and weak.
Oh but I forget. The fascists never meet you face to face as in one to one- they meet you face to face in the sense the Hydra met Hercules face to face. One face of yours with many of them.
I am sorry Stassa but I was not an evzon. I was in the Presidential Guard, but in the Command Company. To be an Evzon you must be in the Evzonic Company. I was considered big enough ,though, to be part of the honor guard in the President’s Christmas Reception. The interior of the Presidential manor is awesome. They have one of the biggest equestrian portraits I have seen. I think it’s King Constantine A. Irodou Attikou is one of the best places to walk in Athens. Also a great place to live if you got the money.
As for threats. People make them all the time. They just use their actual names. Treats from non-existing names do not count.
A ha ha ha…. WELL SAID, Sassa!
Except… TOTALLY WRONG!!!
I’m a regular Winter-Swimmer, in perfect shape!
I can throw the guy into the frozen sea, ANYTIME.
(oh damn it… I forgot it’s NOT so cold these days…)
agoo
Ah sorry. I don’t know much about the army
Er, that was supposed to go:
Sorry, I don’t know much about the Greek army after the first century BC
Omadeon:
Yes I imagined it would be something like that. Btw, since you’re a programmer, do you know anyone looking for a Prolog programmer?
Stassa “do you know anyone looking for a Prolog programmer?
NO!
I don’t know of…
anyone looking for Prolog programmers (PROgrammers in LOGic).
However,
since I am…. NOT looking for
anyone looking for Prolog programmers
I wouldn’t really know (EVEN IF they were looking)!
hehe
As an aside, quite unexpectedly, you raised an important point about… Irrationality, brain-washing, and Fascism:
A society of people with true Logic Skills would probably never tolerate fascism (which is an irrational ideology); would never be vulnerable to any Hitler or Plevris. To become an obedient sheep, a follower of such psychos, one NEEDS to be illogical, or minimally clueless about Logic and Reasoning.
But before we start… celebrating joyfully the Great Progress made by our Species, we should look deeply into the eyes of most of our leaders, people like Bush, Sarkozy or Berlusconi or K-boy and G-boy here in Greece, and start wondering if our LOGIC powers (of detecting Big Bad Wolf) have been tricked.
A society of obedient sheep NEEDS to remain UNAWARE of Logic, and -conversely- the Wolves DON’T like the sheep to think logically (or to Program logically -hehe).
Well, I didn’t think you would to be honest. But you know how it is, I ask around you never know.
What you say does strike a chord. Logic is my favourite maths subject obviously
It’s funny though, but if you see Nemesist’s last comment to me, he also claims to always “use logic and knowledge” when he speaks. I’m afraid the problem is that people are not machines, so our ability to follow a rigorous process of proof to a correct conclusion is limited.
I have always hoped that one day even courts of law could use some software to check their facts and their reasoning and not be swayed by sophistry and rhetorics for example. To hope that such a tool would be used by “common” people in our everyday exchanges is too much to even fantasise about. Oh well.
On the other hand, I really think that the problem with the fascists is that they’re insensitive arseholes, and not necessarily stupid- they just don’t care that’s all. The stupidity is of course in that they don’t understand how their callousness eventually comes back and bites them in the bahoogies but eh, what do you expect…
Stassa, everything you said seems quite valid.
I am glad you reminded us of the “sensitivity factor”, which I had forgotten, perhaps because I take it for granted. It is NOT so…
It is NOT possible to be completely human without sensitivity and emotion. However, my naive first guess is that a person without sufficient sensitivity, would most probably NOT become a fascist or an extremist anyway, if at least equipped with Reasoning powers. He or she might become dull, or feel depressed, etc.
But I have never seen a fascist without strong emotions, either. It’s the irrationality which probably plays a strong part in _moulding_ his emotions to lack a certain sensitivity This is in itself a contradictory or irrational situation; to be emotional but ALSO insensitive is at the core of a fascist’s strong irrationality.
There have been many studies about this issue, and not one single factor can account for everything.
Logic is not a mechanical thing, as well. Inextricably linked with emotion, it is also a constituting element of sensitivity. It is wrongly associated only with electronic circuits. Reason, or the capacity to think rationally, are not just mechanical things; they are inherently also very emotional things, because the mind discovers through them all those… unpleasant things that a closed mind tries to avoid knowing.
A fascist has the ability to deceive himself, to indulge in a deep irrationalism which APPEARS consistent to him, but it’s the exact opposite. Take for example reasoning about the holocaust, which nazis seem particularly incapable of doing; in order to NOT face the horrific facts, they need to use a very strong element of irrationalism, of self-deception.
The fact remains, that your point is just as valid, except that sensitivity without strong reasoning ability feeds the… soap operas and the masses of deceived sentimentalists; NOT the fascists.
Ultimately, we need ALL our dimensions to be Wholesome; just as my comment needed yours to attain a more balanced view! hehe
P.S. As regards Plevris himself, he has written Masterpieces of Total Irrationalism, disguised as reasonable discourse. Some blogs have made long posts analysing his rubbish; it has an outrageous number of revolting inconsistencies, even with itself. However, the EMOTIONAL CHARGE of a mind-set like Plevris’ manages to hide the irrationality even from itself. We are dealing with something remarkable at work, this process of deception is astonishing!
My creations O-mad-monkey are mainly real, not virtual. Blogs are mostly egocentric boring places, created by people with no life. Life is out there. Not IN here, you pathetic professional troll.
So, are you a Cretan O-mad-monkey? The situation is obvious: Theodorakis was being polite, saying he “likes” your stuff, then told his work assistants to ignore that cretin who trance-ified his songs! Hahaha, i m sure you re in denial, by not accepting this. By the way, why dont you TELL US A FEW THINGS ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOUR IDOL, MIKIS THEODORAKIS, IS A WORLD-KNOWN ANTI-SEMITE??? HE HAS BE CHARACTERIZES AS SUCH BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND GRECOPHONE NEWS FOR SOME THINGS HE SAID, WHICH ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PLEYRIS SAYS. WILL YOU SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS CONTROVERSIAL BEHAVIOUR OF YOURS, you worthless hypocritical litte weasel?
I do not reject trance music, but not the sissy stuff you play, i like psychedelic trance, only Greek groups, my favorite are ‘Opsis’ and ‘Metallaxis’… But I m sure you ve never heard of them..
Μα εγώ δε θέλω να γίνει η χώρα ναζιστική, καθυστερημένε προγραμματιστή. Τι θα πει δηλαδή να γίνει ναζιστική; Να γίνει όπως η Γερμανία του 30; Πόσο καμμένος είσαι; Αρκετά έτσι;
Υπάρχω… κι όσο υπάρχεις… θα υπάρχω… σκλάβα τη ζωή σου, θα χω..
Ποιον “αριστερό” ή “δεξιό” είπα εγώ ότι θαυμάζω;;
Υπάρχουν στιγμές στην ιστορία των εθνών που χρειάστηκε να πολεμήσουν ή να υποταχτούν. Ο Χίτλερ, δεν ήθελε τον πόλεμο, τον πόλεμο τον προκάλεσε η Αγγλία μέσω κυρίως των εβραίων που είχαν θέσεις εξουσίας εκεί. Όλα αυτά τα γράφει με αποδείξεις ο Πλεύρης στο βιβλίο του. Αλλά βρε ξεφτίλες, τουλάχιστον ΔΙΑΒΑΣΤΕ το βιβλίο και μετά βρίστε, ο μόνος που το έχει διαβάσει εδώ μέσα είμαι σίγουρα εγώ.
Και για ποιο λόγο να διατυμπανίσω κάτι τέτοιο; Είμαι φυσικά ΚΑΤΑ της σφαγής αμάχων. Εννοείς για να ενσπείρουμε το φόβο στους εχθρούς;
Μάλιστα. Και με αυτό βέβαια, δίνεις βήμα στον κάθε Τούρκο να σε αποκαλεί δολοφόνο στους διάφορους διεθνείς οργανισμούς, ενώ εσύ ξέρεις ότι ο Τούρκος είναι η αιτία ανείπωτης πίεσης, αίματος και κατοχής, τα τελευταία 1000 χρόνια. Όψι, αμοιβαία παραδοχή λαθών, γίνεται με νοήμονα πλάσματα και με καλόβουλα, όχι με Τούρκους..
Και εγώ έτσι αισθάνομαι, είδες που συμφωνούμε σε κάτι;
Κύριε Τραυλέ, δεν έχω κανένα συνάφι. Είμαι απλά ένας πολίτης με τις απόψεις του. Πως ορίζεται η αγάπη για τους ομοεθνείς μου; Να αγοράσουνε όλοι SUV για να είναι happy? Να έχουν ένα αξιόπιστο και μη διεφθαρμένο κράτος; Να εξελιχθούνε ως εθνική κουλτούρα και πολιτισμός; Οτιδήποτε από αυτά, όπως κάθε πράξη, πρώτα συλαμβάνεται στο μυαλό ως σκέψη, που αποκαλείται και μια ιδέα. Οι τέλοιες ιδέες, προάγουν την όλο και μεγαλύτερη τάση προς τελειότητα των ανθρωπίνων πράξεων, καθώς η τελειότητα αυτή καθαυτή δεν δύναται προφανώς να υπάρξει στο θνητό μας πεδίο. Αυτά είναι στοιχειώδη ζητήματα κύριε Τραυλέ, μαθήματα νηπιαγωγείου θα κάνουμε τώρα. Υπάρχει βέβαια ένα θεματάκι, ΖΗΤΕΙΤΑΙ και η ύψιστη προσπάθεια για επίτευξη των βέλτιστων δυνατών στόχων. Αυτό θα προσέκρουε βέβαια σε γνωστή νεοελληνική στάση ζωής, γνωστή ως ελάσσονα προσπάθεια ή και ως “δε βαριέσαι”….
Δεν είναι έτσι. Όσον αφορά τους Γερμανούς, με τη θέλησή τους προχωρούσαν προς το θάνατο, σε έναν πόλεμο που δεν θελήσανε. Αυτό λέγεται και Ηρωισμός. Το μόνο που θέλανε είναι ‘ζωτικό χώρο’ σε περιοχές με συμπαγείς γερμανικούς πληθυσμούς. Ας μην μπούμε όμως στα του Β παγκοσμίου, περασμένα είναι. ΣΗΜΕΡΑ, το δημοκρατικό μοντέλο, αυτό που αποδέχεστε όλοι εσείς, έχει κάνει τις μάζες πολτοποιημένους και ομογενοποιημένους καταναλωτές. Που ελέγχονται από μερικές πολυεθνικές εταιρείες. Βασίζονται εκτός των άλλων και στη δίψα των λαών για ειρήνη, λόγω του δικαιολογημένου φόβου των γενικευμένων πολέμων που υπήρξαν στο παρελθόν, ΠΟΛΕΜΩΝ ΟΜΩΣ ΠΟΥ ΤΑ ΙΔΙΑ ΑΥΤΑ ΣΥΜΦΕΡΟΝΤΑ ΔΗΜΙΟΥΡΓΗΣΑΝ ΤΟΤΕ..
Δηλαδή αγαπάς έναν καταναλωτικό όχλο, αλληλομισούμενο και αλληλοκατηγορούμενο, χωρίς καμία αίσθηση συνοχής, πέρα από ευκαιριακές συμμαχίες με σκοπό το κάθε φύσης έγκλημα και τον κάθε είδους παρασιτισμό. Αυτοί είναι οι Έλληνες σήμερα (στην πλειοψηφία) τους, ή κάνω λάθος;
Μα δεν υπάρχει “ακροδεξιά παγκοσμιοποίηση”, ο κάθε ένας ενδιαφέρεται για το δικό του έθνος, ίσως αμυδρά και για τη φυλή του γενικότερα. Τι με νοιάζει τι κάνανε οι Ιταλοί και οι Ρουμάνοι ακροδεξιοί;
“Stassa”, i too am a tall and strong person, with quite a good physical condition. I do have the ability to bash someone’s head, even if that someone is tall and strong too.
Tραυλέ, you lucky guy, σου ‘φεξε, i think Stassa likes you!
Not everyone is the same, and since i do not belong to any group i can meet YOU in person alone, if you want. Που κάνεις πιάτσα;
Τhey count, if there is an actual person behind the name.
Πω ρε πούστη, τι περιπτωσάρα είσαι εσύ; Γιατί δεν κάνεις το καλοκαίρι όπως όλοι οι άνθρωποι ρε ψυχανώμαλε; Ένας προγραμματιστής trollgger (αντί για blogger), επαγγελματίας αντι-φασίστας κ αντι-ρατσιστής, χειμερινός κολυμβητής, με ειδικότητα στα trance-remix του Μίκη Θεοδωράκη!Εσύ δεν είσαι άνθρωπος, ανέκδοτο είσαι μεγάλε!!!!!!!
No, “Stassa” did not “raise” any points at all, all “she” does is behaving in a negatively womanly manner, evading questions and resorting to insults.
You really are worthless. The above constitutes an argument?? A kindergarden child could write better than you. Any kind of ideology or political system requires Logic to be produced and processed in the minds of its creators. However, only a few systems and ideologies are actually BASED on Logic. Nationalism, is of course the one with the most bases in Logic. Democracy on the other hand, like the western form of today, has a solid base on man’s lower instincts, that is why it goes hand in hand with mass capitalism, whose overlords kindly offer to mass produce the material things that will satisfy these lower insticts. But a scapegoat is always handy. At this present time, scapegoats are the losers of the latest war, where capitalism won, demonizing the losers. It is ironic though, that had the losers won, our planet and the environment would not have been raped to the point they are today, by mass capitalism, because the national socialist racial theory was pro-ecology, pro-vegeterianism, pro-nature in general.
Could be one of the stupidest things i ve ever read. So, you are, apart from all other things, a specialist in detecting the Big Bad Wolf? Come on, why dont you just admit the truth? YOU are the Big Bad Wolf, omadeon. You, and everyone, anyone as a matter of fact. You got it in you, everyone does. You for example could make a very good warden of a concentration camp. One that has gathered neo-nazis and nationalists, lets say. Stassa for example would have made an excellent warden-interogator in a concentration camp that holds fanatic heterosexual males for example. You cannot deny that.
Wow! Did you think of that all by yourself?
Logic is a maths subject? What school teaches that?!
Speak for yourself, Stassa.
χμ, τι θέλει άραγε να πει ο «ποιητής;»
Well, the great CSI investigator omadeon, who claims I reside in a foreign country, now has become an expert in fascist psychology! Hahaha
The above must be on of the most worthless things ever written. Logic and emotion are opposites. Even a retard knows that. But not omadeon!
We DO face the horrific facts. Facts such as that Greek victims of the second world war, including famine victims, executed victims by the occupying forces, heroic soldiers, are NOT memorized, but instead we are supposed to pay our tributes to a mythological figure (6 mil) of victims of some middle eastern “peoples”.
How about you omadeon? Are you a tough guy, or a soap opera man?
Oh yes, you are so wise, a guru! Peace yo!
So, which books of Pleyris have you read, programmer?
I REPEAT, why dont you TELL US, Omadeon, A FEW THINGS ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOUR IDOL, MIKIS THEODORAKIS, IS A WORLD-KNOWN ANTI-SEMITE??? HE HAS BE CHARACTERIZES AS SUCH BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND GRECOPHONE JEWS FOR SOME THINGS HE SAID, WHICH ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PLEYRIS SAYS. WILL YOU SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS CONTROVERSIAL BEHAVIOUR OF YOURS, you hypocritical litte weasel? IS IT OK FOR MIKIS TO SAY ANYTHING HE LIKES, BECAUSE OF HIS LEFTIST TRADITION? SHARE YOUR VIEWS ON THAT ONE, you professional antifascist. I am waiting..
First of all I am surprised that Nemesist goes on and on.
People here are just TOO nice for him. I think he is a challenge on free speech. He raises age-old questions about fascist speech.
Secondly, we are dealing with a psychotic of high … verbal output, but who is ALSO quite capable of extreme and perverse violence. He may be ten times worse than the Pontian guy who killed a few others before killing himself.
Thirdly, I spent TOO MUCH time, talking and writing about Mikis Theodorakis, NOT agreeing with some of the things he said, while agreeing with other things; defending him from slander, while distancing myself from certain statements he made. This was a VERY TIRING process, and a challenge for my own honesty.
There are LONG, LONG discussions about the statements of Mikis both in my own blog AND in other blogs, most notably the blog of Abravanel. Drawing the line between truth and untruth was hard at times. So hard, that I got disgusted. I got disgusted of slander against Mikis, but also got VERY disgusted of certain political circles that INFLUENCE him and inspire him to make _very_ unfortunate statements, from time to time. So:
So, when an article by Mikis appeared in the infamous “Resalto” magazine, I STOPPED TRYING to get in touch with certain people that he himself recommended, about remixing his music. It was not a conscious decision, at first. I got tired and postponed it, more and more, till I realized that it was semi-intentional.
Resalto is Red-Black fascism. It can be identified, comparing it with its international counterparts: The “Nazbols” (National Bolsheviks) of Russia, the “Folk and Faith” Christian eco-nazis in the States, and also… most probably the specific mutant neonazi circles where Nemesist belongs.
Δυστυχώς όμως… δουλεύω κιόλας, αυτές τις μέρες.
Buy for now, Stassa, I am NOT JUST a Prolog programmer:
http://prologsource.wordpress......pa-prolog/
As regards Mikis Theodorakis, I think the statement of May 9, 2009 at 1:32 am is a grossly slanderous over-simplification. I have spent a LOT of time dealing with this issue, both in my own blog as well as e.g. in the blog of Abravanel.
I do NOT agree with slanderous stereotypes, but I also I don’t agree with everything Mikis has ever said. When an article by Mikis appeared in the infamous Greek Red-Black (nazbol) mag “Resalto”, I experienced a big disappointment. So big, in fact, that I _almost_ lost my interest in continuing the remixes….
There was another comment of mine here, which didn’t appear yet, probably because of a link it contained.
On the whole, most people are totally clueless about the ideas that dominate the mind of Nemesist. In my opinion, this new type of fascism is grossly underestimated.
People don’t even know who Julius Evola is. HOW could they suspect the depth and the seductiveness of these ideas?
Αυτό είναι έμμεση ομολογία, βέβαια… χεχε
Πάντως, αφόρι μου εγώ σου εύχομαι να προοδεύσεις, να αναδειχθείς.
Να συναντήσεις τις ιδέες των ιδεολογικών συντρόφων σου και να συστρατευθείς. Η παλιά ακροδεξιά είναι τελειωμένη πλέον. Χωρισμένη όπως οι Ιταλοί και οι Ρουμάνοι που λέγαμε, δεν έχει μέλλον.
Ενώ εσείς, οι νέοι μεταλλαγμένοι εθνικισθαί, οι έχοντες μέχρι και… οιΚΩΛΟγικάς ευαισθησίας, οι μελετώντας τον Ιούλιον Εβολα και τον μέγα Otto Strasser, έχετε λαμπρό μέλλον.
ΚΑΝΕΙΣ δεν θα μπορεί να σας αντιμετωπίσει, ίσως, στο μέλλον, πλην… ημών των ολίγων “τρελλών”, των συστρατευομένων υπέρ Ανθρωπιστικών Ιδεών, ΕΣΤΩ ΚΙ ΑΝ η ανθρωπότητα εξεχαρβαλώθη… κατέστη εύκολη ΛΕΙΑ στα βρωμόχερά σας, ω νέοι Αθάνατοι.
Εμείς ΧΕΣΜΕΝΟΥΣ σας έχουμε, και προχωράμε δημιουργώντας τη ΔΙΚΗ ΜΑΣ συλλογικότητα, που θα είναι το ΜΟΝΟ αντίπαλο δέος σε ΕΣΑΣ.
Νάστε καλά, παιντιά μου, να πνίγεσθε σε υψηλές ρωμαλέες ιδέες!
As a defense of classical German national socialism, nice try!
Nearly all the red-black fascists today profess anti-globalisation ideas, under the auspices of “Third Positionism” (look this up in Wikipedia, whoeever is interested).
Of course, nationalism as well as this new breed of fascism delude themselves that they are “based on logic”. The father of many such ideas, strangely enough, is not Hitler or Plevris but… Plato (and to a certain extent) Aristotle.
This is why, I never believed that Ancient Greek ideas are ALWAYS good; never believed them to be “more democratic” than everyone else’s.
As regards Plevris, I didn’t have to read his books. There are VERY LONG extracts of his books, published on-line and criticised widely in many blogs. If you really WANT a good fight, Nemesist, you should go to these blogs, and discuss his ideas with the people who HAVE read him widely (and exposed him rather well).
Nemesist made another statement, which probably nobody realized HOW important it is.
(“I am of course AGAINST slaughtering civilians”).
Well, this statement PROVES (if anything) my dear Nemesists, that WE HAVE WON the War of Ideas. Who is this “we”?
It’s the HUMANISTS, the ones who profess Human Rights and Dignity, who won the war in EVERY MIND, including YOURS.
You may flirt with fascism, nationalism, or any “-ism”. In the end you come back to US, you come back to HUMANISM, and you express a SPONTANEOUS RESPECT, a RECOGNITION of the fact that innocent people should never again be harmed.
Yet, you are UNAWARE of the contradiction implied by this.
Rest assured, however, that your so-called threats make me laugh.
I am a survivor of a rather intense incident of being beaten up; ever since this happened I am almost completely fearless.
The problem with this analysis is the assumption that Holocaust deniers have accepted the facts but choose to be irrational (consciously or through an unconscious process).
Holocaust deniers do not “face” the horrific facts because they dispute and refute the veracity of the presented facts. There can be no “self-deception” when the facts are not accepted by deniers to begin with.
By denying free speech and open debate on the Holocaust, we are making martyrs out of the deniers and giving them publicity and exposure which will drive the sales of their books even more.
It seems that we are untiwittingly giving strength to the deniers’ argument by making laws to “shut them up” – and by curtailing free speech, we are encouraging more and more people to ask the question :
“Why does the Holocaust need protection from the law? The truth does not need to be protected by laws”.
Γεία να δώ αν μπόρω να απαντήσω
«Ο Χίτλερ, δεν ήθελε τον πόλεμο»
Έχεις διαβάσει το «Ο Αγών Μου?»
Αν ναί που το βασίζεις αυτο? Ένα καθεστώς και ένα άτομο που έθετε των πόλεμο, και δη των φυλετικό πόλεμο σαν απώτερο σκόπο ύπαρξης του έθνους δεν ήθελε τον πόλεμο?
Γίατι, άφου πήρε τα κομμάτια τις Τσεχίας που είχαν Γερμανικο πληθυσμό, μετα κατεργησε την ανεξαρτησία του Τσέχικου έθνους?
Γίατι αφου νίκησε την Πολωνία, δεν αρκέστηκε στα Γερμανόφωνα κομμάτια και εφέγε ολο το εθνος, παρέα με τον φιλαρακο του τον Στάλιν.
Γίατι κύρηξε τον πόλεμο στις ΗΠΑ δίνοντας στον Ρούζβελτ ένα θεόσταλτο δώρο. Οι ΗΠΑ το 41 κύρηξαν πόλεμο μονο στην Ιαπώνια, και ο Ρούζβετλ δεν μπορούσε να πείσει το Κονγρέσσο να κυρήξει πολεμο στην Γερμανία. Ο Χίτλερ του έκανε την χάρη. Και μην μου πεις οτι το έκανε για συμπαράσταση, γιατί οι Ιάπωνες του είχαν ξεκαθαρίσει οτί δεν θα τον βοηθοΎσαν ενΆντια σε ΕΣΣΔ. Πες μου εσύ γίατι ένας ηγέτης που δεν ήθελε τον πόλεμο να ξεκινήσει έναν με έναν νέο έχθρο?
«Είμαι φυσικά ΚΑΤΑ της σφαγής αμάχων. Εννοείς για να ενσπείρουμε το φόβο στους εχθρούς;»
Είσαι ο πρώτος εθνικιστής που εχω ακούσει αν το λέει αυτο. Συνήθως το τροπάρι είναι είμαστε κατα τις σφαγής των αμάχων αν την κάνουν οι Αμερικάνοι και είναι κατα Σιμιτικών λάων, αλλα εντάξει αν είναι Αλβανοί, Τούρκοι, Κροάτες, Βόσνιοι.
Και όχι ουτε και για να ενσπείρουμε φόβο στους εχθρούς. Έγω Μογγόλος δεν είμαι.
«Μάλιστα. Και με αυτό βέβαια, δίνεις βήμα στον κάθε Τούρκο να σε αποκαλεί δολοφόνο στους διάφορους διεθνείς οργανισμούς»
Και σε αυτήν την περίπτωση ήρεμα τους επισημάνω τα «έργα» του κράτους τους. Την ισοτρική αλήθεια δεν την έχω για όπλο, αλλα για να είμαι ένταξει με την ψυχή και με το έθνος μου.
«Όψι, αμοιβαία παραδοχή λαθών, γίνεται με νοήμονα πλάσματα και με καλόβουλα, όχι με Τούρκους..»
Ξερείς πολλούς Τούρκους προσωπίκα, έκτος απο κανα Γκρίζο Λύκο με τον όποιο ανταλάσσετε μαχαιρίες?
«Οι τέλοιες ιδέες, προάγουν την όλο και μεγαλύτερη τάση προς τελειότητα των ανθρωπίνων πράξεων, καθώς η τελειότητα αυτή καθαυτή δεν δύναται προφανώς να υπάρξει στο θνητό μας πεδίο.»
Ναί και στο όνομα αυτον των τέλειων ίδεεων, του τελείου ανθρώπου, του τέλειου έθνους, της τελείας ιδέας, εκαττομύρια έχουν σφάχτει και θα σφάχτουν. Όχι Νεμεσιστ οι τέλειες ιδέες δεν φτίαχνονται στο μυαλό. Φτίαχνονται σε έναν αιματοβαμμένο βώμο όπου εκκατομύρια θυσίαζονται.
«ως ορίζεται η αγάπη για τους ομοεθνείς μου; Να αγοράσουνε όλοι SUV για να είναι happy? Να έχουν ένα αξιόπιστο και μη διεφθαρμένο κράτος; Να εξελιχθούνε ως εθνική κουλτούρα και πολιτισμός;»
Όπως το ορίζει ο καθένας ελέυθερα. Ο καθένας κάνει τις επίλογες του και ζεί και πέθαινει κατ’αυτες. Αν για κάποιον το νόημα της ζώης (ανόητα) είναι ένα SUV δικαίωμα του. Αν είναι μια ζώη ενάρετη και γένναια και παλι δικαίωμα του. Ούτε έγω ούτε έσυ είμαστε θέοι για να ξερουμε την αλήθεια, ποσο μαλλον για να την επιβάλλουμε.
«Όσον αφορά τους Γερμανούς, με τη θέλησή τους προχωρούσαν προς το θάνατο, σε έναν πόλεμο που δεν θελήσανε.»
Αληθεία? Για αυτο το 45 τα SS στο Βερολίνο τρυγυρνάγαν σκοτωνόντας των ίδιο τους τον λάο. Ρώτησε ο Χίτλερ τους Βερολινέζους όταν έδωσε την διατάγη στον Σπηηρ να καταστράφει η πόλη? Και δεν θελήσανε τον πόλεμο? Τότε γιατι δεν ξεχηθήκανε στον δρόμο να διαμαρτυρηθούν το 41 οταν ξεκίνησαν έναν νεο πόλεμο? Ένας αντίλογος ήταν οτι ο Στάλιν σκόπευε να επιτεθεί. Το πρόβλημα είναι οτι ο Στάλιν δεν είχε στρατό να επιτεθεί. Μολις είχε σκοτώσει το μεγαλύτερο μέρος της στρατιωτικής ηγεσίας, και ξεκινίσει ένα πρόγραμμα ανασυνταξης του στρατού που τα είχε κάνει όλα άνω-κάτω. Ένος στρατού που δεν εμπιστεύοταν λόγω Χειμερινού Πολέμου. Ίσως να επιτεθόνταν το 48 ή το 50, αλλα με τίποτα το 41 ή 42. Και ο Χιτλερ το ηξερε, αλλα ηταν τοση η διψα του για πολεμο, που δεν μπορούσε να περιμένει να τελείωσει με αυτον που πολεμούσε ηδη.
«Ηρωισμός»
Ηρωισμός ήταν η προσπάθεια εκαττομυρίων Γερμανών να επιζησούν την τρέλα του αρχηγού τους και να ξαναφτίακσουν την χώρα τους με ενα δημοκρατικό πολίτευμα και μια οικονομία που μπορεί να εγγυηθεί μια καλή ζωή. Όλα τα άλλα είναι ανθρωποθυσία στον βωμό της τρέλας. Στον βωμό του Χίτλερ, και εκείνου του άλλου εγκληματία του Στάλιν , και του άλλου μπαστάρδου του Τσώρτσιλ Σαν το Λόπεζ της Παραγούαης που «ηρωίκα» θυσίασε στον βώμο της πατρίδος το 60%(90% του ανδρικού) πλυθησμού της χώρας του. Αλλα έσωσε την τιμη του έθνους! Αναρωτίεμαι αν οι χιλίαδες χήρες και ορφανά νίωθαν περηφάνια για την τιμή του έθνους.
«Δηλαδή αγαπάς έναν καταναλωτικό όχλο, αλληλομισούμενο και αλληλοκατηγορούμενο, χωρίς καμία αίσθηση συνοχής, πέρα από ευκαιριακές συμμαχίες με σκοπό το κάθε φύσης έγκλημα και τον κάθε είδους παρασιτισμό. Αυτοί είναι οι Έλληνες σήμερα (στην πλειοψηφία) τους, ή κάνω λάθος;»
Ναι υπάρχουν τα παραπάνω, αλλα υπάρχουν και αυτά : το φιλότιμο (και ναί υπάρχει άκομα), οι παρέες, οι νέοι που δεν το βάζουν κάτω και πάρα τους χαμήλους μίσθους κοιτάνε το μέλλον, χωρίς όμως να γίνονται μίζεροι και να πανικοβάλονται. Τον φαντάρο που ναί μεν θα γρινίαξει, αλλα θα προτιμίσει να κάνει την υπηρεσία του παρα να πάρει χάρτι γιατρού για να μην πουλήσει τους συναδέλφους του. Τον κουνίαδο μου που ξυπνά χαράματα με το χαμόγελο στα χείλη για να πάει να δουλέψει στην λαίκη, οι των κόσμο της πρωίνης βάρδιας που αλληλοκαλημερίζεται. Τους φίλους μου που την μία μέρα τσακονώμασται και την αλλη βγαίνουμε παρέα. Έκει που έσυ βλεπείς έναν όχλο έγω
βλέπω άτομα με όνειρα, κάποια που θεωρώ φτήνα και κάποια που θεωρώ ενάρετα. Άλλα αυτό που βλέπω ειναι ελευθερία. Ελευθερία του να αποφασίσεις αν θες να έχεις όνειρα αξία του ανθρώπινου χαρακτήρα σου ή όχι. Κια φυσίκα η ελευθερία σημαίνει διαφορές
και συγκρούσεις. Άλλα το αν αυτές η διαφορές θα λύνονται με λογική και επιχειρήματα, ή με χυδαιότητα είναι επιλογή του καθενώς.
«Μα δεν υπάρχει “ακροδεξιά παγκοσμιοποίηση”, ο κάθε ένας ενδιαφέρεται για το δικό του έθνος, ίσως αμυδρά και για τη φυλή του γενικότερα. Τι με νοιάζει τι κάνανε οι Ιταλοί και οι Ρουμάνοι ακροδεξιοί;»
Και για αυτό δεν θα πετύχουν ποτε να διαλύσουν τον καπιταλισμό. Τουλάχιστον οι κομμουνιστές έχουν αμυδρά κατανοήσει το χαρακτηρα του εχθρού τους. Οι εθνικιστες ακομα…
«I do have the ability to bash someone’s head»
Καλή ικανότητα αν θες να γίνεις μαφίοζος.
«Τhey count, if there is an actual person behind the name.»
Ποίο το Νεμεσιστ? Το λέει και στην ταυτότητα σου?
«Nationalism, is of course the one with the most bases in Logic. Democracy on the other hand, like the western form of today, has a solid base on man’s lower instincts, that is why it goes hand in hand with mass capitalism, whose overlords kindly offer to mass produce the material things that will satisfy these lower insticts.»
Το πρόβλημα σου είναι οτι ο Εθνικισμός (ρομαντικός εθνικισμός του 19ου αιώνα), Φιλελευθερίσμος, και η Δημοκρατία ηταν άρρηκτα δεμένες έννοιες με μέγιστη έκφραση τα κινήματα του 1848. Μετα εσεις η εθνικιστες πουλησατε μεσω Μουσολίνι την ψυχή σας στον κολλεκτιβικό δίαβολο.
«by mass capitalism, because the national socialist racial theory was pro-ecology, pro-vegeterianism, pro-nature in general.»
Βεβαία γίατι τη άναγκη έχουν τις μηχανές οι χαρούμενοι ιδιοκτήτες εκκατομυρίων σλάβων σκλάβων.
«Logic is a maths subject? What school teaches that?!»
Αν κάνεις θεωρία πιθανοτήτων γνώση της Λογικής είναι απαραίτητη. Ειδίκα στο εξωτερικό. Το LSE σίγουρα τα συνδυάζει.
«mythological figure (6 mil) of victims of some middle eastern “peoples”»
Μεσα-ανατολιτες? Τι μαλακίες είναι αυτές που λές? Απο που και ως που τα 3 εκκατομύρια των Πολωνό-εβραίων που έφαγε ο Χίτλερ, και ζούσαν στην περιόχη από το 1600μχ ήταν μεσανατολίτες. Δηλάδη οι Αιγυπτίωτες Έλληνες και οι Πόντιοι ειναι και αυτοι μεσανατολίτες? Και άσε τους Έβραιους στην άκρη, ο κανακάρης εφάγε 4 εκκατομύρια Πολωνούς καί 3.6 εκκατομύρια Ρώσους αιχμαλώτους πολέμου. Σου φτάνουν αυτοι η αριθμοι? Η’ είναι και αυτα σκευωρίες? Ή τους 100.000 Ρόμα που έφαγε ή τους 80000 ψυχικά ασθενείς , πολίτες του ίδιου του του κράτους?
Και δεν αρνούμαι και οτί οι άλλοι κάνανε εγκλήματα πολέμου (Συμμάχοι και Σοβιετικοί). Να στήσουμε ένα μνημείο σε όλους τους αθώους που θυσιαστήκαν στον βωμό των ιδεών κάποιων. Άλλα βλέπεις ο κοντόφθαλμος εθνικισμός του αν δεν είναι δικοί μου δεν με νοίαζει, καλά κρατάει.
Εν τέλλει Νεμέσιστ, δεν έχω πρόβλημα να αναγνωρίσω τα προβλήματα του τωρινού πολιτκού συστήματος, ήταν τις προκλήσεις ένος οικονομικού συστήματος που βοήθησε εκαττομύρια να βγούν απο την φτώχεια, αλλα συνάμα δημιουργεί κινδυνούς. Αλλά απο το να εμπιστευτώ το μέλλον σε αποτυχημένες ιδέες (αριστερές ή δεξίες) και να τα διαλύσω όλα στο όνομα ενός στοιχηματος με την ιστορία, οτι ίσως αυτη την φορα δουλεψουν η ιδέες σας χώρις να σκοτώσουν εκατομημύρια, προτιμω να δω το τωρα και πως μπορούν να ανιτμετωπιστούν τα προβλήματα και να διορθωθούν χωρίς η λύση να είναι εξίσου χείριστη με το να μην αποτολμηθεί λύση. Στο κάτω κάτω εχείς ζησεί στο καθεστώς που υποστιρίζεις για να μου πείς αν αξίζει των κόπο? Ίσως μια επίσκεψη στην Βορεία Κορέα να σου επιτρέψει να μου δώσεις μια απάντηση.
Και εν τέλλει να θυμασαι την βασική διαφορα μας. Στο δικό σου καθεστώς είτε θα είμαι νεκρός ή έγκλειστος σε ψυχειατρείο (που αν ο Χίτλερ είναι παράδειγμα, ουσιαστικά νέκρος). Στο δίκο μου καθεστώς είσαι ελέυθερος να εκφράζεσαι οπως θέλεις.
Και μια τελευταία φιλική παρότρυνση. Αν θες να διαβάσεις καμία σοβάρη κριτική της αστικής δημοκρατίας και του φιλελευθερισμού, αντι για τον «πράκτορα» της Ορχανα, τον Πλεύρη , διάβασε σοβαρούς διανοητές’ Ο Παναγίωτης Κονδυλης και τα βιβλια του Χρίστου Γιανναρά είναι μια καλύτερη κριτική του φιλελεύθερου καπιταλίσμου απο όποια μπορεί να κάνει ένας «δικηγόρος».
Michael,
You raise very important points.
However,
1) I am not advocating the censorship of ANY speech, including holocaust-deniers (and their books). After much thinking I concluded that holocaust-deniers should be fined, or sentenced to other penalties (like… compulsory service towards victims of racist attacks); possibly also forcing their books to be published with a… Fraud Warning on the front-cover (or together with other printed material forcibly included TOGETHER with their own printed material, stating facts).
2) You are absolutely right about the problem being deeper than naive irrationalism; it’s a problem about FACTS, but my contention is that their irrationalism influences their Mind’s SELECTIVE ACCEPTANCE of facts. I.e. whatever does not fit into their preconceived ideas is filtered-out to begin with.
We are accustomed to health warnings on cigarette packets. Perhaps we should consider the possibility of “fraud warnings” on the front / back covers of books as well, if they are full of lies. However, I don’t expect this to happen in the near future. It requires a society with a much greater respect for Reason than ours. Our societies THRIVE in (self-)deception.
I wholeheartedly agree with ALMOST everything our friend Mr. Kostantinos Travlos has written (in Greek). The minor issues where we differ slightly are irrelevant (e.g. I wouldn’t consider Giannaras as my best choice of writer, but… WHO CARES?
)
As regards the VERY IMPORTANT points raised by Michael Scowcroft, his last comment is worth VERY serious consideration. It is an example of a comment that HELPS civilized dialogue, and it also helped me remember certain things that were NOT mentioned.
E.g.
1) One Jewish person MOST opposed to the censorship of David Irving was a Jewish-American lady who is his most vehement opponent (forgot her name). She would agree with you Michael on everything.
2) We need better, more humane and more CREATIVE measures against holocaust deniers, as well as against ALL other kinds of written material which violates established common truths. I would like EVERYTHING to be freely publishable, but… I would ALSO like to see NEW LAWS that force “Fraud Warnings” and force the inclusion of “truth-restoring written material”, on any book condemned to be a FRAUD. This will be a big step forward.
3) Michael’s critique of my NAIVELY expressed (short) version of Irrationalism is absolutely correct. However, if I wrote a long diatribe about this topic, we would probably agree in the end.
4) My contention is that irrationalism is so deeply rooted in human thinking that today we are only beginning to see it more clearly and criticize it. And also that -primarily- it’s a subtle process of SELECTIVE AWARENESS that influences our choices of WHICH facts to accept and which not to accept.
5) As regards the irrationality about the holocaust, and the need of holocaust-deniers to distort reality, it’s a result of SELECTION of what to believe and what not to believe as facts; but it’s also the result of INSENSITIVITY towards the horrific sufferings of people who were prisoners in the death camps. Hence, or otherwise, an “open-minded Court of Law” in the future, may… FORCE Mr. Irving to READ ALL the books written by Primo Levi (holocaust survivor) and… PASS AN EXAM about them!
Plevris’ acquittal signals that authorities in Greece fail to take firm action to curb racism
http://www.minorityrights.org/.....cism.html#
17 April 2009
Minority Rights Group International on Thursday expressed concern that the inconsistent implementation of laws against inciting racial hatred in Greece may result in targeted attacks against Jews and increased anti-semitic sentiments in the country.
The comments from the London based human rights organisation follow a recent Greek Appeals Court decision to overturn a 2007 conviction and acquit Kostas Plevris -author of the book “Jews – The whole truth” – from charges of inciting racial hatred. MRG says the decision signals the authorities’ failure to restrain signs of racism and put an end to the promotion of Nazi ideology.
MRG says the Appeals Court decision points to clear inconsistency in implementing Greek anti-racism law, on the basis of which Plevris was found guilty in 2007. The December 2007 court ruling convicted the author- who denies the Holocaust and promotes the Nazi ideology in his writing- of inciting racial hatred through his book and sentenced him to 14 month suspended imprisonment. Plevris filed an appeal and the March 27 2009 the Appeals Court found him not guilty.
According to MRG a spate of recent attacks against Jewish religious and historical sites including synagogues in Volos and Corfu, the Holocaust monument in Corfu and the Jewish cemetery in Athens and Ioannina could result in feelings of intimidation amongst the Jewish community. After the desecration of Volos synagogue on 1 January 2009 for example, religious services had to be cancelled. The community was also been put in a vulnerable position by the anti-semitic statements of extreme right-wing party leader George Karatzaferis during the attacks on Gaza.
Following her September 2008 visit the UN Independent Expert on minority issues Gay McDougall raised concern that according to Jewish representatives anti-semitic views continue to be expressed in the extreme right wing press, in mainstream newspapers and also by public figures. The acquittal of Plevris does not support government statement in the report about the success of positive measures to confront anti-Semitism, MRG says.
Minority Rights Group International calls for the Greek authorities to condemn and punish all forms of racist manifestations by consistently implementing laws against incitement of racial hatred and to give clear signals that religious and racial harassment are unacceptable. MRG also call on the Greek authorities to fulfil their international legal obligations such as the provisions of Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which clearly prohibits inciting racial or religious hatred.
The Board of Deputies of British Jews
6 Bloomsbury Square, London, WC1A 2LP
Media Contact: Mark Frazer Tel: 020 7543 5408
E-Mail: mark.frazer@bod.org.uk; Web: http://www.bod.org.uk
Representing the interests of British Jews since 1760
BOARD CONDEMNS DECISION TO ACQUIT GREEK NEO-NAZI
UNSPEAKABLE HATRED GOES UNPUNISHED BY GREEK AUTHORITIES….
LONDON – (8th May 2009) – The Board of Deputies condemns in the strongest terms the recent decision taken by a Greek court to acquit a neo-Nazi author, who wrote a book entitled ‘Jews – The Whole Truth’ which praises and justifies the Nazis’ actions while calling for Europe to be rid of its Jews.
Kostas Plevris, the author of the book, was originally given a 14 month suspended sentence in 2007 for violating an anti-racism law which prohibits incitement to racial discrimination, hatred or violence, but an appeal was held in April this year. The Appeals Court decided to overturn the decision and acquit Mr Plevris completely.
Mr Plevris’s book, is littered with unspeakable hatred, and overt antisemitism:
• “The history of humankind will hold Adolf Hitler responsible for the following: He did not rid Europe of the Jews whilst he could.”
• “Wake up – the treacherous Jews are digging a pit for the nations, wake up and throw them in for they deserve it.”
• “…that’s what the Jews deserve, for it’s the only way they understand: a firing squad within twenty four hours.”
• “The civilised world is to blame for tolerating those international pests called Judeans, the time of retaliation has come.”
The 2007 trial was held in a highly antisemitic atmosphere, with the presiding judge and public prosecutor seeming to defend Mr Plevris and the ‘scientific’ nature of his work, whilst reportedly threatening and intimidating the Jewish witnesses present. One witness was told by the prosecutor, “This court is indulging you, but I can’t tolerate you…I will have you arrested and locked up in a cell.”
Following the trial and in the lead up to the appeal, the Board of Deputies made contact on several occasions with the Greek Ambassador to the UK, to express its concerns at the proceedings of the original trial. The Board was also in constant contact with the Greek Jewish community.
Despite the outrage that broke out, the appeal trial was conducted in a similar manner. The counsels for the complainants were sent out of the court by the Judge who told Jewish witnesses that the court could defend them instead.
The Board of Deputies now intends to start an awareness campaign to draw attention to the injustice that has taken place. The Board’s Chief Executive Jon Benjamin observed that “we cannot sit back and watch while human rights and freedoms are ridiculed and abused in a fellow European country which claims to be a modern democracy. Legislation against hate crime has been created and therefore must be implemented in such a clear cut case as this.”
***For more information or to find out more about the awareness campaign please contact the Board of Deputies office.***
Media Contact: Mark Frazer Tel: 020 7543 5408
E-Mail: mark.frazer@bod.org.uk; Web: http://www.bod.org.uk
Greece whitewashed by EU Rights Agency on anti-Semitism – “Burning of Judas” pract
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
19 April 2009
http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3451
Greece: Acquittals in three trials for racist texts – Racist speech continues to go unpunished
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
18 April 2009http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?sec=194&cid=3450
Greece: Jewish, Greek-German and anti-Nazi NGOs react to neo-Nazi’s acquittal
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
17 April 2009
http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3449
«In Greece that refuses to discuss its anti-Semitism, we have no option but to become ‘Jews’»
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
17 April 2009
http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3448
Greek court vindicates Nazi Costas Plevris – MFA states he insulted Greek people as a whole
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)
11 April 2009
http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/ind.....p;cid=3447
Τι έγινε βρε μπαστάρδι; Με απειλείς ρε ξεφτιλισμένε ψευτο-ανθρωπιστή καραγκιόζη; Λάθος σου αυτό και πολύ πιθανό να το μετανοιώσεις. Λέγε γαμώ τη μανούλα σου και το σπίτι σου, που βρίσκεσαι, να έρθω να μου γαμήσεις το σόι και τον “κωλοχριστό”. Να δούμε από κοντά πόσο γενναίος είσαι γαμώ το αίμα σου μωρή κουράδα που θα με απειλήσεις κιόλας, σκατόφλωρε ψευτοδημοκράτη. Περιμένω.
*Dear english-speaking posters, omadeon while in english supposedly tries to refute what i say and the ideas i speak about, in Greek he has just threatened to kill me and all my relatives while swearing on jesus and my “fcuking life”! Seems that omadeon is a big fan of violence after all, despite the tons of useless crap he writes, HOW typical of an “antifascist”, whose nauseating hypocrisy has just been exposed. Of course the monkey crap-DJ programmer does not stand a chance, all he is good for is spreading his worthless BS in words over his pathetic blog and the blogs of others…
Excuse me, WHO issued clear physical threats in this discussion, TWICE?
CERTAINLY NOT me. However, whoever threatens me physically gets the abuse he deserves.
Asshole Nemesis, it is YOU who has to reveal your IDENTITY, not me. I never implied any intent to harm you, but if you DO implement your threats I AM entitled to self-defense.
WHAT kind of MORON is this guy? Doesn’t he realize that his LIES are OBVIOUS to ANYONE who can READ GREEK?
I said, and I REPEAT in English (AFTER being physically threatened with my head being smashed by Nemesist, in previous comments and AFTER insults repeated in the comment preceding mine):
“…IF YOU COME ANYWHERE NEAR ME, I will bla bla bla”.
Let me get this straight, ONCE AND FOR ALL.
I have NO problem to DEAL with physical threats. JUST by sheer coincidence, it so happens that I don’t. But this is not true of recipients in general.
I DO have a problem with guys who ISSUE THEM over the net, attempting to TERRORIZE PEOPLE, ANY PEOPLE.
Let me make it clear ONCE AND FOR ALL, to this asshole:
Physical threats over the net are ILLEGAL.
Nemesist, you are EXPLICITLY a SELF-CERTIFIED CRIMINAL THUG.
Furthermore,
the EVIDENCE brought here by Mr. Dimitras indicates that the Plevris acquittal has HARMED GREECE, to an extent which is significamnt, if not alarming.
Thugs like Nemesist, who… instead of feeling CONCERNED about the sad consequences of the Plevris acquittal, are using it instead to justify their own criminal behaviour, are (therefore) TRAITORS.
Yep, CRIMINAL TRAITORS OF GREECE.
Instead of DEALING with their treason, they will no doubt start grumbling once again about the pros and cons of Mr. Dimitras’ organisation. However, WHATEVER the truth or falsity of such complaints, the NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES ON GREECE are FACTS.
Even if Mr. Dimitras did not exist, the bad consequences of the Plevris acquittal would still exist, pretty much the same. So, DON’T BLAME OTHERS, BLAME YOUR CRIMINAL SELF, Nemesist.
To be fair, this is an argument that could be levelled against Holocaust believers as well as deniers. For example, deniers claim that it’s “irrational” to believe some of the Holocaust survivor testimonies that were relied on in court to convict and put to death German camp guards (testimonies made by Jews who said that there were different colour smoke emanating from the crematoria according to the nationality of Jews being burned i.e. Polish Jews gave off yellow smoke, Russian Jews gave off black smoke etc…).
My point is that the facts are ACCEPTED SELECTIVELY by both sides to support a particular point of view; but there is ONE undeniable fact: only one side seems sufficiently uncertain of their argument so as to require the protection of the law. This does not look good. By curtailing the deniers’ freedom of expression, we’re giving validity to the deniers’ argument solely for the reason that they are not allowed to express their opinion without going to prison.
If open debate was allowed and encouraged instead of being avoided and legally sanctioned, maybe the Holocaust deniers could be finally and publicly discredited, instead of constantly being made into free speech martyrs.
Your last paragraph Michael, says it all! I agree 100%.
Open debate can never be justifiably avoided or sanctioned. What remains is to protect the UNINFORMED from being misinformed. They can’t ALWAYS come here, on-line and… enjoy the pleasant company of people like… Nemesist!
Hence, or otherwise, people who MISINFORM others, should be dealt with through other means, e.g. forcing a book-label saying “This book may seriously damage your intellectual health”, etc.
Michael,
In the end, perhaps this whole issue reduces to something very similar to the problem of Quackery, selling fake medicines, etc.
Intellectual products can be seen as any other products. Someone buys a book about the Holocaust, wishing to learn about it. If the book is Irving’s, the reader WILL BE CONNED, tricked into something which is fowl; Untruth, equivalent to a false bad medicine or a plastic toy that can poison children. WARNINGS are in order here. As well as (perhaps) obligatory ANTIDOTES (“This court sentences you, David Irving, to ALWAYS PRINT AN OBLIGATORY additional text, at the prefaces of all your books, stating all the facts you denied and the truths you violated”).
This is VERY EASY, except that it can be easily done only by a more reasonable society; a Society which VALUES KNOWLEDGE and PROTECTS PEOPLE FROM DISINFORMATION (likely to be even more harmful, in the current emerging Age of Information Overload).
Omadeon and Nemesist you both got out of hand. Either converse in a civilized manner or go to some other place for a fight. And I do not care who started it. You aren’t children for the “he started it” excuse to work.
And just a note, the police can find the identity of internet threats. So weight in the possible consequences before typing something.
Κώστα, “στην άδικη μοιρασιά ο Θεός ζημιώνεται”.
Και επιπλέον, είναι ΝΟΜΙΜΗ η απειλή ότι αν κάποιος υλοποιήσει την απειλή του θα συναντήσει αντίσταση.
ΔΕΝ ΕΙΜΑΣΤΕ ΝΗΠΙΑΓΩΓΕΙΟ. Ξυπνήστε.
Ούτε βόθρος. Ουτε απραίτητα αρένα
Τέλως πάντων ο καθένας οπώς μπορεί.
After about 14 years of internet dialog, I do know what is legal and what is not.
e.g.
If anyone threatens you to come near you and smash your head, then you ARE entitled to retaliate, AS LONG AS you imply ONLY self-defense, STRICTLY in response to the other’s attack.
I must apologize, however, to DeviousDiva and to others, for my use of… VERY VERY bad (Greek) words. So Kostas is actually PARTLY CORRECT.
Coming back to the discussion, Michael has raised some extremely valid points. So valid, in fact, that perhaps it’s worth thinking seriously about certain alternatives to prohibition.
As a matter of fact, Michael, the internet has made it impossible to censor anyone’s books. E.g. David Irving’s books, although banned in certain countries, have been made available by him for download, at no cost! Think about it (I’ m sure you already have).
Although I am the first to agree that Plevris should go to jail, strangely enough I am against banning his books. It took me a long time to arrive at the “alternative proposals”. They started as a joke, in one of my blogs (on futurology). However, they are not science fiction but perfectly implementable measures.
Instead of banning a book, which is unlikely to stop it from spreading around through the net, if the book contains serious distortions of known and verified facts, it should be possible to implement a “Fraud Warning”, obligatory on the book’s front cover, as well as obligatory explanations to be printed inside the book itself, e.g. before the preface.
Of course, Greek society tolerates… Liakopoulos, who actively pollutes young minds with sheer rubbish, and nobody can stop him. However, perhaps the only reason “Fraud Warnings” and obligatory text amendments are not used, is that the world is FULL of fraud!
Just list under Fiction:)
Haha…
Kostas,
Imagine the looks on the face of Liakopoulos, if e.g. a court of Law FORCED an obligatory red stamp, on every page of every book he wrote, with the inscription “REMEMBER, THIS BOOK IS FICTION”!
You know the funny thing is that if you take them as what they are, fiction, some of the books Liakopoulos sell are actually enjoyable (the ones about aliens). I don’t think, from the little I have read of Plevris that he has that.
From what i read about Kostas Plevris book, he has made some pretty inciteful comments and this is unnacceptable, he has crossed the line from historicial revisionism into anti-Semitism – but when authors are being banned and imprisoned solely on the basis that they offer an alternate or unconventional opinion of the Holocaust, then, we are going down a slippery slope of censorship and curtailment of freedom speech.
It does not look good when a civilised society stops you from having a different opinion.
It does not look good when you threaten others with imprisonment if they don’t agree with your argument or your version of events.
By making a crime out of debating the Holocaust, we are making martyrs out of anti-Semites and neo-Nazis.
“REMEMBER, THIS BOOK IS FICTION”
^Shall we write this on the Bible as well? Who should be the arbiter of what is fiction and truth? There are people who believe the most outlandish things but shouldn’t readers be afforded the freedom to believe what they wish without the threat of imprisonment for their beliefs?
We are living in the “age of information”, we can find the “truth” (or our version of the truth) in a few clicks on the internet, so issuing mental health warnings or “this is fake” labels on books is pointless. People will always seek that truth which coincides with their beliefs/preconceptions and in a civilised society, they should be free to do so.
Forcing people to conform to “our way of thinking” through fear of imprisonment or trying to “shut-them-up” using the law is not representative of a healthy, open society – in fact, it has more in common with the fascist, “burning books” National Socialist nightmare society …oh the irony.
Michael, with most of what you said I agree; on some of it no.
First of all, as regards Plevris, I believe he was condemned for his inciteful statements; not for his ideas, or for Holocaust Denial. The law was very specific, and it was broken by him.
The initial sentence imposed on him was mild and symbolic. A signal to people that inciting racist violence is not acceptable socially.
This is regardless of the rest of the book, of whether or not it contained truths or lies. So, I do think, quite simply, that he SHOULD go to jail, but that (also) his book should not be banned.
(To some people this may seem a contradiction, but I don’t think it is).
Secondly, if a court of law can VERIFY that a certain author has indulged in serious falsifications of established facts, in order to incite racist or other harmful views, I don’t see why it can’t also pass some form of sentence to the author found guilty. It is certainly detrimental to Freedom of Speech to ban his book, on this I agree. But if a court can simply DO NOTHING, then… VERY WELL, Michael, PERSONALLY I don’t have ANY problem about this.
However, look at some logical consequences:
1) Instruction manuals on how to kill your mother-in-law, cut her body to pieces and fry it in the oven, will be LEGAL, of course!
2) If you… don’t hate mother-in-laws, but you do hate e.g. the government, technical manuals on how to blow up parliament without getting arrested, will CERTAINLY become best-sellers!
3) Now for some SERIOUS stuff, then: The “Paedophile Hitch-Hikers Guide to Raping Children” will be sold freely on every shop.
Do you really want me to go on?
Ultimately, although freedom IS a precious thing, experience has shown that ANYTHING, when taken to its absolutely extreme limits, can become extremely negative and harmful in its consequences.
WHERE do we “draw the line”?
Well, personally, I would insist on the “This book is full of false facts” or “this book is fiction label”, EVEN IF you got worried it might be applied to… the Bible.
Religions can be simply EXCLUDED from such penalties (although personally, YES, I WOULD like to see such a Warning Label on the bible as well – but I don’t expect anyone to agree with this!)
“Forcing people to conform to “our way of thinking” through fear of imprisonment or trying to “shut-them-up” using the law is not representative of a healthy, open society”
Good point, but you know the simple reality is that full freedom is not conducive to a healthy society either. Have you forgotten that freedom doesn’t mean only freedom to do as you will, but also that it ends where another person’s freedom starts. As Michael said if freedom is simply the respect of all and any views, then laws against pederasty are unlawful. For the people who indulge in this, they see no problem, it is no worst then writing a book on the Holocaust, or reading a paper, or watching “Prison Break”. But society, i.e the majority, sees this action as evil, and harming both to children and the social whole. And I have to ask how writing a book where one say’s people X,Y,Z are “rats”, “vermin”, reveling in their “extermination”, and calling out for hat extermination is not somewhat similar.
I am not saying that you are a supporter of the rights of pederasts. But you did make the slippery slope argument. Well Michael that slope can go both ways. And in reality human social history is always a precarious balance on the top of a hill with steep slopes everywhere. That is why I will always be against all “perfect” ideals. They are like the winds that will take you and throw you down the slope.
Ultimately society has a right (the only really collective right I am willing to recognize) to impose restrictions on personal freedom when that personal freedom threatens the social whole. But the criteria should be clear, and material. And in the end, if you don’t like your society you have the choice of leaving it, rather then staying and destroying it (especially in democracies).
[...] in English, about the Plevris Acquittal (in other blogs) include Reactions to Plevris Acquittal as well as Incitement to Violence [...]
Greece will be examined by UN CERD on 10 and 11 August 2009. Following a GHM-MRG-G report to CERD (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/.....erds75.htm) the Committee sent the following questions to Greece. After Greece received the questions, a Supreme Court Prosecutor on 2 July 2009 filed a motion for cassation on behalf of the law against the Plevris judgment. If accepted by the Supreme Court, it will remove the judgment from the case law but wont have any impact on Plevris (if the latter was desired a proper motion for cassation had to be filed 15 days after the publication of the judgment ie 9 June).
COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION
OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
Seventy-fifth session
3 to 28 August 2009
QUESTIONS BY THE RAPPORTEUR
IN CONNECTION WITH THE CONSIDERATION OF
THE SIXTEENTH TO NINETEENTH PERIODIC REPORTS OF
GREECE
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/.....C-Q-19.doc
Article 2
1. Please provide updated information on the application of Law 927/1979 “on punishing acts or activities aiming at racial discrimination”, including the number of convictions and the sentences imposed. What measures have been taken to ensure that acts of violence against members of ethnic minorities are always promptly and effectively investigated and prosecuted?
2. Please provide information on measures taken for the implementation of article 79, paragraph 3 of the Criminal Code, which states that when a crime is motivated by racial, national or religious hatred, this shall be considered an aggravating factor. Please also provide examples of cases in which this article has been applied.
3. Please provide statistics on “incidents of discrimination or unlawful use of force” by the police mentioned in paragraph 158 of the State party report, insofar as they relate to the scope of the Convention, and indicate what sanctions, if any, were imposed for such crimes.
Article 4
4. Please indicate whether organizations and groups promoting or inciting racial discrimination in the State party, including Neo-Nazi groups, have been legally banned and their organizers prosecuted.
5. Kindly provide information on the monitoring of compliance with Presidential Decree 100/2000, which provides that “television stations may not broadcast programs which incite hatred between citizens on the grounds of their different race, religion, citizenship or gender”.
6. In light of the provisions of article 4 of the Convention, which require that the dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or hatred be punished by law, please comment on the recent reversal by a Greek appeals court of a 2007 conviction in the case of Costas Plevris, for the publication of his book “The Jews – The Whole Truth”. Is the book still available and sold in the State party?
Article 5
7. Please provide statistical information regarding the participation of members of ethnic minorities in central and local State bodies, in the police force and the judiciary and, in the case of inadequate representation, on measures adopted to improve the situation.
8. According to the independent expert on minority issues, Roma children did not have full and equal access to education at the time of her visit in September 2008. Please provide clarification on the concrete level of integration of Roma children in the education system and on measures taken to eliminate discrimination against Roma children in school due to stereotypes, their lack of knowledge of Greek or the unavailability of teaching in Romani. Please also provide information on the results obtained by the project for the education of Greek-Roma pupils mentioned in paragraph 69 of the State party report.
9. Please provide information on the level of achievement, if possible with statistics and examples, of the aims and priorities of the “Integrated Action Program for the social integration of Greek Roma” as well as on progress made with regard to the Integrated Action Plan for the integration of third-country nationals legally residing in the Hellenic territory.
10. Are ethnically Slavic Greeks in general allowed to use their mother languages in private schools and publications, including Slavic Macedonian? Are Slavic names accepted for children of Greek citizens?
11. Please elaborate on the Government’s view of the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights which found that Greece violated the right to freedom of association by rejecting associations bearing the name “Turkish”.
Article 6
12. Please provide information on measures taken to guarantee the independence of the Office of the Ombudsman and to enhance its capacity to deal with discrimination in various fields.
13. Please provide statistical information on the number and nature of cases regarding racism and racial discrimination dealt with by the Office of the Ombudsman, the Committee for Equal Treatment and the Labor Inspectorate during the period 2007-2009.
14. Please comment on reports concerning obstacles encountered by Roma seeking an effective remedy in Greek courts. Please provide information on measures taken to ensure the equal treatment of Roma before civil courts and in the Criminal Justice System. Examples will be welcome.
Article 7
15. Please provide information on training programmes and courses on human rights issues for members of the judiciary, law enforcement officials and other public officials and indicate whether such programmes or courses include components focused on the rights and obligations set forth in the Convention.
16. Please provide information on measures taken to disseminate the State party report and the Committee’s concluding observations, including through translation into Greek and posting on relevant Government websites.
Additional information
17. Please indicate if the State party intends to make a declaration under article 14 of the Convention, thus accepting the Committee’s competence to receive and consider individual complaints.
18. As a matter of clarification and understanding, and without implying any criticism on the part of the Rapporteur, please explain the reasons why Greece signed (in 1997) but never ratified the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.
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