Open Thread 1
Published by deviousdiva June 17th, 2008 in open thread.It’s a gorgeous day and I am looking forward to having a leisurely lunch with a very good friend. I love summer especially when it’s cooler in the evenings like it is right now. Summertime for blogs is a different matter. People go out more, spend less time at their computers tapping away. That’s a good thing. I love to think of my regulars taking trips, sitting on beaches, visiting friends and generally having a life. For dedicated bloggers it can be a slow and sometimes frustrating time, with fewer visitors and fewer comments. It can seem like no-one is reading the important stories that you are posting.
So, I’ve decided to look at this positively and try an experiment here. An open thread ! It’s not a new idea. Lots of bloggers do it. It’s a free for all post. Pop in to say hello. Bring up something that’s on your mind. Drop me a link that might be of interest. Promote your own blog or particular posts. Sing a song. Pull a face. Whatever you like.
[My blog rules still apply though. If you are not sure that you should post something, you probably shouldn't.]
I’ll kick off this thread by saying I was very sad to see Greece knocked out of Euro 2008. Yes, I was rooting for the Greek team ! And I am even sadder to hear that the very dishy Antonis Nikopolidis (the George Clooney of footie) is leaving international competition.
From the International Herald Tribune
Time is merciless _ this moment comes for everybody. I had hoped for something better at this tournament, but I had taken the decision to retire before it started
He is 37 and in sporting terms, that’s old. I know what he means by time being merciless ! I am sure he will continue to have a great career coaching or perhaps he will take up something completely different.
I wish him all the best in whatever he decides to do.
Bet you didn’t know I was a bit of a football fan !
I for one am glad the greek team is out. Immigrants are safer that way, you know.
Ο Λύκος της Στέππας | St3pp3nw0lfs last blog post..Η ανάπτυξη.
To the very sad person who keeps pestering me about censorship on this blog, let me explain. It is exactly because of people like you that I have comment moderation in place. The filth that you have written will never get posted so you might as well give up. You know who you are.
I would also like to apologise if any decent comments have not appeared here. I hit delete all on my spam folder and then realised that some legitimate comments do get filtered there by mistake. I get about 300 spam comments a day and had decided to just delete without reading but for some reason some regular users still get filtered there (Craig, I know you’re one of them and I still can’t figure out why). So again, my apologies to you.
Onto better and brighter things… anyone have any good news ?
No tears for Nikopolidis. That he was error prone was proved by his fit of madness against Russia. Maybe if the search for a replacement eventually ends with the young Greek-Australian Dean Bouzanis (currently in exile at Liverpool FC of all places) this might have a little positive effect on conceptions of what it means to be Greek. But generally I think international football is a cause of international violence and conflict. I remember German language students being terrified by locals in England (was it Euro 96?) and Albanians being violently attacked in Greece (after the World Cup qualifier that Greece lost and, I think, on another football occasion). Probably best it was stopped. For that alone reason itr is a shame England were not at Euro 2008: their fans have the capacity to screw international football for ever!
They were crying in their Ouzo the day Greece was eliminated including my sweetie, sigh…well at least the Germans still have a chance, I have my flag all ready…ciao
rosittas last blog post..The Human Right To Not Be Offended!
It’s an interesting debate whether international football stimulates violence or merely channels it into a different format. My feeling is that as national football shows just as much violence, although along regional or club lines, then it is probable that international football simply refocuses the fault lines along national borders.
It wont bother me, though, Papa Duck if you ban football:-)
It’s very sad that football has such a history of violence and racism. You’re right of course that international competition can bring out a more focussed type of nationalism but I think the violence at club level is just as prevalent (if not more so). I must admit that when Greece lost to Russia, I immediately hoped that nothing horrible happened to any Russians living here.
I also find it very sad that I am unable or unwilling to take the kid to see matches for fear of the violence and destruction that takes place after so many games. I love the game but prefer to watch from the safety of my living room.
Papa Duck, I agree that Nikopolidis has been prone to serious errors of judgment but is also capable of moments of brilliance. I also have a bit of a crush
BTW: CNN has a week long series on racism in football. And Kick It Out is a campaign to stamp it out.
An open thread is an excellent idea, DD. I will probably be applying it on my blog in the future.
I really don’t care much about football. It is not just the violence and destruction that bugs me, it is also the groupthink mentality that it promotes, the irrational regionalist/nationalist pride, and the stupidity of fans acting like orangutans over a bunch of young men of no particularly virtuous upbringing, who earn in a year more than the average fan will earn in a lifetime, for kicking a ball about the grass.
Come to think of it, you did not use this open thread idea as an excuse to throw a thread on such a lame subject as… football, did you?
You asked whether anyone has any good news, well, I do have some good news, in a few days I will be a father.
Regarding your spam problem, unfortunately Wordpress sucks on this aspect. Aren’t there any “captcha” plugins that you could use?
Regarding the hate comments and censorship, please tell me: what do you think of my “spittoon” / “hall of shame” idea? (I wrote about that on my English-language blog.)
Διαγόρας (Diagoras)s last blog post..WordPress feature request: Hall of Shame
Of course, Diagoras ! You know how devious I can be
I love the spittoon idea. I think I commented. I’d use it most definitely.
As for spam… it’s an ongoing battle. I have askimet and it catches it all but it’s such a drag wading through it. That’s why I was just hitting “delete all”
And wishing you courage and much love on becoming a father very soon. I’ll be thinking of you. All the best.
Xenos and DD, I think you are missing the point. Club football, at least in England, has a very ugly side to it. But at least it can help subvert the simplistic nationalism of the majority. Die hard fans of United would love any foreign teanm to beat Liverpool (sorry DD). When Beckham was vilified for letting England down in France ‘98 the United hard core fans response was to sing ” you can sick your f***ing England up yor a*se” and ” Argentina” (pronounced with a Spanish ‘g’ (that is an English ‘h’ or Greek ‘x’) mind you!). I am not naive, I do realise that a lot of these fans opinions would not be mine, but still I think this is positive. It would be nice if Greek fans were able to have the same attitude i.e. a bit more club spirit, a lot less nationalism (but, of course, with a lot less violence). I feel for you DD in not being able to take your kid to a match. However, I do think this you are wise not to do so. I think the atmosphere, even, in England, is not really good for kids (I wish I had never taken mine to OT as it has bred a completely irrational hatred of scousers in him).
Hmmm, I am not sure PapaDuck is completely correct. I remember Maradona when playing for Argentina in Italy90 in Napoli, he got many italians to boo Italy in the match Itl-Arg. But that’s maybe the famed lack of nationalism of the italians who display an extreme degree of regionalism instead.
But also in Greece fans of OSFP or PAOK would rejoice over the defeats of either opponent. And I mention these cause I’ve seen examples of both and they’re admittedly the worst examples of violent behavior. This doesn’t mean that they’re not nationalists, just that they feel that the opponent is “bad” enough, as not to deserve the solidarity his greek descent gives him.
My view coincides with that of xenos, the amount of violence in football is incredible - especially in regional level.
abravanels last blog post..Φαιοκόκκινη Συμμαχία ή αλλιώς “Είμαι πράκτορας της Μοσσάντ”
@Papa Duck. I do know what you’re saying. My problem is that both club and international matches are ruined by violence which is just as mindless and destructive whatever the reason for it.
I had a friend who grew up in a small village in Yorkshire which had a tiny river running through it. Every so often the boys from one side of the river would meet to beat up the boys from the other side. For no other reason than that they were from the other side.
I am all for healthy competition. I was very seriously involved in swimming teams as a teenager and loved competition events. But I was brought up believing that the joy of taking part and doing the best I could WAS the competition, not the winning (although that was good too).
I have never understood that extreme feeling of wanting to attack someone on an opposing side whether it’s football or swimming or whatever.
At the risk of upsetting people here, I do want to mention that I think this is mainly a problem amongst young men. I am wondering if this is because of the way boys are socialised and taught ? I’ve seen even very very small boys being encouraged to stand up for themselves by fighting (literally “beating your enemy”).
Is this just a generalisation ? Is it just a small minority who are causing problems (not just in football) or is there a bigger problem in Britain ? I don’t know but I am very troubled by the rising violence in my country of birth. I know alcohol has played a huge role in fueling some of this mindless violence in the last 30 years or so but I don’t think that is the whole picture.
What do you think ?
deviousdivas last blog post..Blog Additions
It is not a generalization, but you are looking for the answer in the wrong direction if you are considering it to lie with nurture rather than with nature.
Perhaps you will find the book “Chimpanzee Politics” by Frans De Waal interesting. It was written in 1982, but it has been such a success that there exist a 1998 and a 2007 edition which can be extensively reviewed by starting from here:
Chimpanzee Politics
In case the above link does not work, here it is again: http://books.google.com/books?.....&cad=6
Διαγόρας (Diagoras)s last blog post..WordPress feature request: Hall of Shame
Far be it from me to suggest I have all the answers but I do think DD’s questions are worth an attempt.
1. Rivalries and violence. I think we have to take these as given and ask what are the more destructive channels.Racism is the worst, nationalism and religious hatred somewhat behind and local/football rivalries way behind. Before you accuse me of ignoring sexism I should state that I regard this as a special case not belonging in this ranking.
2. Boys and violence. Not sure anyone should be upset. It is fairly obvious. And a lot of recent research suggests that certain skills and aptitudes have a lot to do with testosterone. Nurturing would probably have to be very strong to withstand the power of nature. This is not to claim that one sex is superior or that all members of it have similar characteristics.
3. Rising violence in Britain. The British Crime Survey suggests that victimisation peaked in 1995 at a staggering 40% of the population over 16 and has been falling since (23% in 2005/6). Murder victims and those under 16 don’t get the chance to report so it is not the full picture. But to put you at your ease (or perhaps not!) the latest statistics show 1.7 murders per 100,000 population in Greece and only 1.55 in England and Wales. Oddly Athens and Pireaus do well in comparison with London (0.55 against 2.38). I think there is a moral panic in England disconnected to reality (except perhaps among certain groups in certain areas - tragic for these people and possibly a threat to cohesion but not the whole picture by any means). That said, I do think standards of civility have declined - loutisness and road rage being the obvious manifestations. But that’s another story.
A good post, Papa Duck. One point of clarification on murder rates: normally, the highest rates are in capital cities where the greatest general violence is typically observed. In Greece, the capital has the lowest rate of murder for any major city in Europe (as I recall) but the average rate for Greece is bumped up by the very high rural murder rates. These latter are more typical of less developed countries, since they are associated with family feuds and vendettas.
Thus, the types of murder in Greece and the UK are very different. In Greece, in the countryside it is Greeks killing Greeks, and in the cities it is (to some extent) immigrant mafia killing each other. In the UK, it is mostly Brits killing Brits (as far as I know).
Xenos, I almost hazarded a guess along the rural vendetta lines but it seemed so archaic and out of keeping with my image of rural Greece that I refrained. I was aware of fearsome feuds in the Mani in times gone by and that if one travels north in the Balkans one comes across some extraordinary codes of ethics (the Kanun - sworn virgins and social men and all) and to the West the Cosa Nostra is capable of extraordinary violence (especially now that so many families are run by women- I am beginning to think I am arguing for the ‘nurture’ hypothesis). I imagine one does not have to travel as far as Kurdistan in Anatolia to find honour killings (given the recent shocking revalations about this phenomenon in the Kurdish and Pakistani communities in Britain). But 21st century Greece? Not that I view this society through rose tinted glasses, the blogosphere has seen to that. It’s that one of the reasons given by Michael Skapinker of the FT (who used to work in Athens) for the low crime rate in the city was the maintenance of social networks from the villages and islands. That might have been the case in the 60s and 70s but even then it sits oddly with your ‘vendetta’ thesis. Why this form of social control should not have broken down by now is a mystery. More questions than answers I am afraid, but perhaps ones that you and DD have a grip on?
The low crime rate of Athens (which is now spiralling upward) is explained by delayed urbanisation — that is to say, that typical patterns of behaviour in cities were not observed in Athens. Rather, until recently people behaved as if in extended villages, maintaining their links with their villages of origin or islands. It was a loose relation, though, and not one that normally encompassed the family feuding that can often be found in rural areas. Therefore, it was neither urban nor rural, but some strange Greek composite of the two.
Most recently, Athens has started to show signs of more typical urbanised social behaviour: this includes social segregation of housing by area (rather than floor) and a more difficult economic situation merely for survival. The result is likely to be more usual European city patterns of crime and violence, within the decade: it has already started to be visible, slowly.