The First Gay Marriage in Greece
Published by deviousdiva June 3rd, 2008 in Gay Rights.It seems I missed it ! I’m waiting for the pictures…
Congratulations to you. I wish you all the best for your lives together.
Let’s hope that the Supreme Court prosecutor George Sanidas doesn’t spontaneously combust. 
UPDATE: The marriage took place at 7.10 am this morning on the tiny Greek island of Tilos. Thank you Luc for the contact page for leaving comments for the mayor of Tilos who stood his ground and supported this landmark marriage. If you would like to send a message to him, please go here.
UPDATE 2: Details were kept secret until after the ceremony since the previous attempt to perform same-sex marriages in Athens were blocked. There were in fact two marriages. Evangelia Vlami, who is a member of gay rights group the Lesbian and Gay Community of Greece (OLKE), married her partner and Dimitris Tsaibrounis, a long-time gay rights activist married his. The mayor of Tilos who performed the ceremonies yesterday is now facing legal proceedings brought by a prosecutor in Rhodes. There are more details here from the New York Times and here from Pink News and here from the BBC
I still can’t believe that someone would be prosecuted for defending human rights
Tassios Alfieris
Mayor of Tilos
UPDATE 3:
More at Flubberwinkle.
Technorati Tags: greece, gay, lesbian, marriage, civil union, gay rights
For those who want to support/congratulate the mayor of Tilos, you can send him a message on the Tilos website’s contact page: http://www.tilos.gr/en/index.p.....p;Itemid=3
lucs last blog post..More motorbikes and helmets
Excellent news, that there are some decent people in Greece prepared to stand up for basic human rights. Unlike you, DD, I do wish that some of these public prosecutors would spontaneously combust.
Congrats to both couples and the mayor, who sifted through all the legal bs and discovered that there is no law specifically banning gay marriage in Greece.
Baby steps…two more states in the U.S. are allowing gay marriages, there *is* hope for the future.
melusinas last blog post..Happy landings are all alike
Congratulations to the two couples and to the mayer of Tilos! Being Dutch, living in Belgium, being gay is not really an issue, both in my family and in my work, but I realise it’s not always easy elsewhere. Good luck to my Greek brothers and sisters!
Wim
Brussels
Belgium
Congratulations.
At last a piece of news that doesn’t make me feel ashamed i live in this country.
Congratulations to the newly weds!
I am a Greek of what I describe a staunch patriot! Not the kind who easily take down all the Anti-Hellenic hysteria of Dimitras and Friends Abroad that so frequently has infest this site!
But what we are speaking here is about the happines of individuals so everybody has to support them in whatever decission will make their individual life happier and better!
LONG LIVE GREECE!
ZHTO H ELLADA!
Baby steps…two more states in the U.S. are allowing gay marriages, there *is* hope for the future.
I truly fail to see why this is some form of “hope”? What exactly is so “hopeful”? The anything goes attitude? Casting away societal norms and traditions? To me, this makes a mockery of marriage and family. For those not in tune with what marriage and family were prior to the incessant attacks from “hopeful” people, it is a union of two people in order to PROCREATE and further society. There was a time when people cared about society and others and not only their selfish selves. This current state of homophilia is not progress, in my opinion.
That’s so awesome. What great news!
Elaine Vigneaults last blog post..The Visitor
Hooray! Congratulations!
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One would think that gay marriage was the most important issue impacting the Hellenic Republic judging by the responses above. Is this really the most important issue? If the Greek birth rate does not begin to rise above the 1.3 per children per couple then there will not be a Hellenic Republic for people to have gay marriages in. Where is the hope?
Oh, I see now. Marriage should only be allowed between two people who are willing to procreate. So I guess we should make the marriage laws a bit more strict, eh?
Hope is allowing love to be expressed. Hope is not being denied access to your lover who is dying in the I.C.U. Hope is being able to build a life with someone you love. Gay marriages do not affect heterosexuals in the least, and as to making a mockery of marriage, what about heterosexual couples who get married for green cards? Insurance? Tax purposes? Plenty of so-called “real” marriages make a mockery of the institution.
As to the low birth rate, not everyone is so irresponsible to think “hey, we are married now, let’s have a bunch of children even though we can’t take care of them properly!” Some couples simply cannot have children for medical reasons, others choose not to (or to wait) for financial reasons, some couples simply aren’t ready for the responsibility. Is that selfish? I don’t really think so. Every child deserves to be born to parents who can take care of them and love them. If a couple isn’t ready, they aren’t ready.
melusinas last blog post..Happy landings are all alike
Melusina, I so totally agree with you! Besides, let us not forget forced marriages arranged by the family/parents. How tragic!
I really don’t get the point you are making, Greek with no name. Are you suggesting that gay people should be forced to marry and have heterosexual sex because the birthrate is a bit low? I hope not, because it would cast serious doubt on your sanity!
If you are really concerned about the low birthrate, then perhaps you should worry about the shitty wages that youg people are paid in Greece, how they are forced to live in their parents’ houses, how they never really grow up [and produce their own children] at least partly because of these things. But this has nothing to do with gay marriage, does it? Or do you think that all Greeks are gay, so this is a serious threat to the continuation of the species? LOL
Melusina, you have to make way for children. How is that Greeks of yesteryear had so many children despite even lower wages, poor diet and even famine, war and occupation and today they barely have one and the country is almost on par with northern Europe in terms of standard of living? Yes, I think it is selfish. People today are more concerned about trivial matters like gay marriage rather than their place in history or overcoming mortality which is most easily achieved by bearing children.
Xenos, the “shitty wages” are going to get “shittier”. The Greek state is running a massive fiscal deficit. Where do you think money for wage rises will come from? There are several ways the situation can improve: liberalise product markets so people get paid what a good is really worth; liberalise labour markets so people get paid what they are really worth; reduce the state sector. Of course that would mean that most of those people protesting (including unemployed English “experts”) will be out of a job and then they will have to compete with Pakistanis. Then we will see if they care about migrants.
The Greek with No Name, who are these unemployed English “experts” you refer to ? I got a comment last week from someone else accusing me of being the unemployed english **@%%#$ (I didn’t post it). If you are referring to me then can I just set the record straight for you. I have a kid and I am raising him as best as I know how. Yes, I am a stay at home mum but generally that means I am over-employed doesn’t it ?
I also have no idea how the birthrate argument is relevant here. In England of yesteryear people had a lot more children than they do now. Nowadays, people are better educated and have more choices than they did in those days. Infant mortality has also fallen thanks to medical advances. It’s not selfishness. It’s choice. Some of us choose not to have children at all. Some want one child that they can support to the best of their ability. Some want big families. Some want to have children but cannot for one reason or another. Some want to adopt children. Some choose to foster children for short or long periods.
It’s called choice. And we are lucky enough to live in a place where we have some.
The HOPE that you don’t seem to understand is that our children will grow up in a world where human rights for ALL are respected, where ALL people are really equal, where no-one dies of starvation or easily preventable diseases, where we care more about human beings than about borders and nations.
I wish I had more time to comment. I have a lot more to say… but time is not on my side right now. Running out of the door right now…
Greek with no name: Greece is in this situation with wages because of corruption and laziness. If Greek businessmen could be bothered to get up off their asses to make sure that their workforce and technology was up to standard, if the Greek colleges and universities didn’t employ people’s friends and relatives, if Greeks bothered even a little about the standards of their work….
Quite what the current economic mess has to do with foreign experts I fail to understand. But this is the usual story: it’s always other people’s fault, never a Greek’s.
Greek with no name: Do not despair. Although the Greek birthrate is 1.3 as you said, I’m sure the immigrants living in Greece will pick up the slack, and the Hellenic Republic will move forward as it always has. Maybe it will be less homogenous but I’m hoping that Greece and Greeks will abandon the silly notion that you have to be blood connected to be Greek.
I say anyone born in Greece period has to be Greek. This is what progressive countries like the USA do, and look how far it’s taken us. America became in superpower in less time than Greece built a lifetime of history and culture. Maybe with the help of Immigrants, Greece can rise from the incompetence and muck of the Greece of yesteryear and make something of itself.
Long Live Greece and the Immigrants who make Greece a better place to live!!!
Congrats on a very important step for which, my personal feeling is. that the greek people have no objection whatsoever and it’s simply a vocal minority which denies the full implementation of the Constitution.
abravanels last blog post..The Last Greeks on Broome Street
Devious, when the situation deteriorates will you remain in Athens or will fly back to London and leave the some of the people that gravitate around you? How much effort have you made to assimilate with Greek culture? How much effort have you made to get a job? All the women I know work and raise children after the child is more than 12 or 24 months. Who pays your bills?
Why do you tolerate the insults of George and Xenos on your website?
Stating an opinion of Greece is not considered an insult. This is the common misconception of Greeks. Giving a non-favorable opinion or stating facts is simply that. This whole “Your either with us or against us” mentality that Greeks have is very childish.
Is it any of your business what I do in my private life The Greek with No Name ? No, it’s not. Your obsession with my assimilation etc is getting rather tired. Please let’s stick to the subjects of my posts.
deviousdivas last blog post..A Victory for Roma Rights
As far as I am concerned, I have done more than my fair share of trying to make Greece a better place for everyone.
I know that DD and many others posting here have also made big contributions to Greece.
This is in marked contrast to some egotistical Greeks (presumably, including “Greek with no name”) who systematically despoil the country for their own selfish ends. The laughable thing is that they seem to believe that foreigners should assimilate into the Greek “culture”, i.e. steal, embezzle, cheat everyone possible, do as little work as possible… What a joke!
Hope is allowing love to be expressed. Hope is not being denied access to your lover who is dying in the I.C.U. Hope is being able to build a life with someone you love. Gay marriages do not affect heterosexuals in the least, and as to making a mockery of marriage, what about heterosexual couples who get married for green cards? Insurance? Tax purposes? Plenty of so-called “real” marriages make a mockery of the institution.
Expression of love, building a life and so on is not determined by having a certificate by the city or the church, is it? Of course not because there are many hetero couples in western lands that are NOT married yet are able to express their love and build a life. This is just the latest in a relentless stream of attacks against the church, in general and marriage, specifically.
Your list of unethical and sham marriages is a strawman as I do not recall saying those should be allowed, did I? No, I did not.
The HOPE that you don’t seem to understand is that our children will grow up in a world where human rights for ALL are respected, where ALL people are really equal, where no-one dies of starvation or easily preventable diseases, where we care more about human beings than about borders and nations.
Not to sound too jaded, however, why is it the responsibility of the western world to bring up the “unwashed masses” to modernity and “equality”? Tell me Diva, do you do all the things necessary for daily living for your child in order to “help” him or do you allow him to learn and make mistakes on his own? I venture to guess the latter. Why then, do we as adults, do the former for others around the globe? A bit contradictory to me.
We have approximately 4 billion people in the continents of Asia and Africa that have no intention, nor are interested in giving lip service to universal respect and equality you drone on about. Yet here you are, browbeating a nation of 10 million or so. Can you see now why native Greeks may become a bit upset with your off the mark, cause celebre?
What’s with the moderation?
Cyngin, please read my moderation policy at the top of the page.
I will be back tomorrow to answer your other comments.
@Cyngin: I know that most people (regardless of their nationality) don’t particularly appreciate it when “foreigners” come and point out the rotten spots in their host country. This is not only true for Greeks, I’ve seen this many times in other countries where I’ve lived. I’ve been at the receiving end of such criticism (towards my country) myself. I’m with you so far. I can empathize with that. I’ll give you even more: before I moved to Greece, for more than 15 years I’ve frequented many Greeks in my country of origin, and I’ve never heard them criticize the system of their host country. Never even once. I’ve concluded that it’s not in their character to do so, whatever their motives for not doing so, they simply never did this. I’m leaving it open for debate whether that’s a blessing or a curse.
What I don’t understand is why you call deviousdiva’s causes “off the mark”. That is simply not true. You’re an intelligent person, you must know that. I find myself very often a silent witness of Greeks discussing the exact same things with much harsher criticism towards the system they are part of. The difference is that after such discussions most of them go home and do nothing about it. People like deviousdiva — and she’s not alone, there are others, also native Greeks — do try to make a difference. It’s okay if it pains you that a foreigner points out these things, I can understand that it can hurt, but deep in your heart you must know that her causes are right.
luc,
I am a Greek in North America. I was born and grew up in the US and currently reside in Canada. I did not try to “change” either country so that is was good for Greeks or humanity as a whole. Neither did my ancestors who came here. We came to better ourselves, our families, hopefully our nation, and to assimilate into our new country. Take that for what it’s worth.
What Diva writes about is not without merit, though it does come with a price. That price is paid by the natives of the country. Let’s take the Roma for instance. While sympathy inducing, most people who know the Roma, and this transcends national boundaries, know them to be not the innocent little victims that Diva portrays them to be. Distilled to the simplest, they are invaders, squatters, parasites with criminality following close by. The Roma came from the Indian sub-continent and right back they should go if they feel so mistreated. But you know what, the mistreatment they would receive from our Indian brothers and their unforgiving caste system would be orders of magnitude greater than what they get from the Greeks or Europeans in general.
A nation is a bordered land mass that has a history, peoples, culture etc. It is not a borderless place that anyone can go to, squat on, demand the place and its people change to suit them and not vice versa as the “new leaders” are attempting with Europe of late. In short, it is a privilege to be in a country that will take you and allow you to work and live better, safer than your native country. No one says Greece does not have all sorts of faults. It does. However, if that is all you see and complain about without attempting to assimilate, then maybe it’s time to move on.
“Do not despair. Although the Jewish birthrate is xx as you said, I’m sure the immigrants living in Israel will pick up the slack, and the Israeli State will move forward as it always has. Maybe it will be less homogenous but I’m hoping that Israel and Jews will abandon the silly notion that you have to be blood connected to be Jewish.
I say anyone born in Israel period has to be Jewish. This is what progressive countries like the USA do, and look how far it’s taken us. America became in superpower in less time than Israel built a lifetime of history and culture. Maybe with the help of Immigrants, Israel can rise from the incompetence and muck of the Jews of yesteryear and make something of itself.
Long Live Israel and the Immigrants who make Israel a better place to live!!!”
Let’s see if that is offensive to people?
The latest comments here are way off topic, but I would like to answer some of the criticisms that Cyngin and The Greek with No Name have leveled against me and other “foreigners” here.
I have been present at many, many discussions about the faults of England and the English. with Greek friends who live or have lived there. Everything from “our horrible food, our cold and aloof nature to, our abandonment of our children when they reach 18, our lack of hygiene, our arrogance, our lack of artistic ability, our lack of political involvement, our sheep-like behaviour when it comes to following the rules and countless others. It’s not easy or pleasant to sit there and feel that you are being told that you are inferior by people you really like and respect.
I used to feel the need to jump in and defend myself and the country that I was born in. I felt very hurt that my friends should have this opinion of me. The truth is that they did not think I was inferior at all but where simply discussing some of the faults of England that are undoubtedly there even if they were exaggerated in their criticisms. (We do have SOME good food in England ! LOL).
I eventually realised that they do not hate me or the English in general. In fact, there is a huge amount of love there. After all, they study/studied, work/worked or live/lived there and made a life there.
I once had the opportunity to work with some people at the Greek theatre in London. It was at that time (many many years ago, I am not sure if it still exists), a vibrant and daring place bringing art and theatre from around the world to not only the Greek community but to all of us. Some of the projects they ran for inner-city kid, minorities, immigrants etc were outstanding. What I am trying to say, very clumsily perhaps, is that it is possible to live in another country, be entirely assimilated without losing your identity and to work as hard as you can to improve the situation in your host country for the benefit of those less fortunate than you. I don’t find it insulting.
Many hundreds of thousands of immigrants and children and grandchildren of immigrants have worked for change in their host countries. To me, this is a positive thing not a negative one. I am not asking Greece to change its language. I am not asking Greek Orthodox believers to become protestant. I am not asking Greeks to give up or change their music, dance or theatre. I am not asking Greece to change its food !
What I am asking is that Greece adheres to the human rights policies that it has undersigned. I am asking Greece to treat ALL its citizens fairly and equally. I am asking that people who come here seeking asylum or work are not abused. I am asking that no-one who lives here (Greeks or foreigners) is exploited. I stand by all those Greek people who are working extremely hard to improve this country for the good of ALL. People who work for disability rights, gay rights, women’s rights, children’s rights etc etc. I have an extensive archive here and you will see if you search under any of those subjects that I am not advocating only for “foreigners”, but for Greeks as well.
I hope this clarifies some of the issues you have raised here and in the past. I am sure you will both have more to say and that you will still misunderstand my motives but I have to try…
When Cyngin writes that “a nation is a bordered land mass that has a history” he is in fact denying the whole history of modern Greece. The Greek nation state was first created with a violent revolutionary struggle supported by Albanians, and later the British amongst others, and the state in 1832 stopped just north of Thessaly. Everything north of that was taken by terrorist and military action of the Greeks, killing or evicting all those Slavs who would not convert to Greek habits, and eventually all Muslims (even those who were Greeks). This national state did not predate the Ottoman Empire: it was created artificially by violent means.
The consequence of this artificial state is that Greeks were left scattered all around the region, in other countries. Of course, those in the rump Greek state had the opinion [as they still do] that they were the only true Greeks — despite 30-40% being Albanian. It was not until the exchange of populations that Greece had a majority of Greeks in it.
So, where does this leave us now? With the fiction of a long and continuous history of a country callerd Greece. In reality, this region has been populated for a very long time by a wide range and very large numbers of many other ethnic groups: Greeks were a minority for most of the last 500 years. Now that they have become a majority, they decide to behave like little Hitlers: a clear case in point is that small weak country to the North of Greece, which wants to call itself by the name it has had since coming into existence.
Cyngin: history tells us nothing other than military force is what counts. Now, in the early 21st century some of us are trying to invoke the rule of law, and some basic principles of human decency and rights. You and many other Greeks would deny this, because Greece (like Israel) is founded on terrorism and violence. Human rights are rarely embraced by terrorist types. Is this where you want to be placed, in the catalogue of human behaviour?
Diva,
I do understand you and what you try to do. Without sounding too unappreciative of your humanitarianism, I like the place the way it was and even the way it is, warts and all. Sure some things need changing, though, I prefer to change it back to when it was safe to roam the cities and countryside without any fears. Forced egalitarianism is an unnatural phenomenon. The reason it was safe years past was not because of some super strict laws that had people in check. It was because people knew each other.
Xenos,
I can agree with some things you say, though one needs to understand that humanity has fought wars for land since the beginning of time. I reject your notion that Greece is like Israel. I also reject your notion that these two countries are the only ones that fought for land. What we are seeing now in Europe is a weaponless invasion and conquering. You seem to like that version versus the bloody ones that have occurred throughout history. To me, if you want to take something, you must fight for it. I do not want to give up countries and a continent because those ARE homelands to people. Not some land that anyone can set up shop in.
You and many other Greeks would deny this, because Greece (like Israel) is founded on terrorism and violence
Actually all states are founded on terrorism and violence, (anarchists got that one right).
Now that they have become a majority, they decide to behave like little Hitlers:
Greeks do not behave like litle Hitlers. Comparing anyone with Hitler means that you don’t have the slightest idea of what nazism is and what it has done.
I think that this conversation has been trolled, ie trolls like our friend without name flame and many people here take the bait and become more regal than the king, (I doubt if this saying in english has the same meaning as in greek
). The whole discussion on whether greeks were a minority is historically wrong because the term “greek” changed during the centuries and there is no “greek bloodline” that says that these 1000guys are greek and therefor are a minority in Greece inhabited by 5000people.
abravanels last blog post..The Last Greeks on Broome Street
Now that I think of even the term Greece is somewhat vague. Greeks may have been a small minority in Thessaloniki but were the majority in Smyrna/Izmir.
And a small advice to xenos, (if I may): things are not black and white. Be less prone to fall for the “small weak country” clichè. No one has the exclusivity in “macedonia” and it is not less wrong to try and attribute the copyright to greece than to f.y.r.o.macedonia. Nationalism is always nationalism and when the Metropolite of Skopje talks about “lost homelands”, he is no less dangerous than the Metropolite of Thessaloniki. Having said that my course of action is dictated by think globally - act locally and I am primarily against the nationalism of my own homeland.
abravanels last blog post..The Last Greeks on Broome Street
Two quick replies to Abravanel: “little Hitler” does not mean exactly like the Third Reich, but a pale imitation of it. As far as the Rep. of Macedonia is concerned, it is a very weak and unstable country: that does not mean that I support its own nationalism, but it is no real threat to Greece because it has no military capacity. Generally, all this nationalism is disgusting: we agree on that point.
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