Hijab/Mandila
Published by deviousdiva April 22nd, 2008 in Art.From Kathimerini, an article by Costas Onisenko
Muslim headscarf draws often unwanted attention in Greece
Despite isolated nasty incidents, many young women will not give up hijab
Greeks in general are not bothered by a young woman wearing a headscarf, but they will turn to look, as Muslim women soon discover.
Headscarves are not unknown in Greece. Not so long ago, they were a standard article of clothing among Greek women, especially those who lived in villages. But how do students react to a classmate wearing the hijab?
“I had never worn a headscarf until three years ago, when I visited my grandmother in Egypt,” said Nadia, a young Muslim who attends senior high school in the inner Athens suburb of Petralona. “Sometimes it upsets me when other children tease me, but I don’t think they do it out of malice. They’ve tried to pull off the scarf and they call me ‘mandila’ [headscarf] for fun,” she said.
At just 15 years of age, she says she would have been prepared to forgo the scarf for the sake of a career or love. As she explained, the headscarf is not obligatory: “I have a Muslim classmate who is from Turkey and she doesn’t wear one.”
The issue of whether headscarves should be permitted in schools made the headlines in Greece earlier this year. Parents had complained that the headmaster of a junior high school in Rendi had not allowed a pupil wearing a headscarf to attend classes. In response to their reaction, the headmaster said the fuss had arisen from a misunderstanding, and the pupil was allowed back in the classroom.
That may have been the only incident that made the news, but it was not an isolated case, Hala Akari from the women’s group at the Greek-Arab Culture Center told Kathimerini.
“Last year pupils at a school in Attica attacked a young Muslim girl, pulled off her headscarf and trampled on it,” said Akari. “The pupil herself didn’t want us to intervene, and she decided not to wear the scarf again until she goes to university.”
Akari explained that most Muslim schoolgirls prefer not to wear the hijab while they are at school. “Every now and then there are problems that the headmasters and teachers create on that subject, but usually they are solved quickly. State functionaries may not understand this religious feature, but they respect it.” She advises young Muslims not to wear the hijab if they are not sure about their faith or their own endurance. As Akari put it, wearing the headscarf is only meaningful for a believer.
Dimitra, a Greek who espoused Islam at the age of 24, isn’t bothered by the views of others. “As long as what I am doing is an expression of myself, no comment can affect me,” she said. “At first, wherever I went, especially on public transport, I felt people’s eyes on me. Now I don’t notice it anymore. I had a few ugly incidents in the street when I was jeered at by strangers,”
Her greatest problem was with her parents. “They couldn’t accept my decision. Every day we had tears, drama and threats,” she recalled.
Ahmet Moawia, coordinator of the Greek Migrants Forum, believes it is too early to draw any firm conclusions about the reaction of Greek society to the hijab. “Most Muslim women here are first-generation migrants who remain within the close confines of the home environment. They don’t have much to do with society,” adding with optimism: “I think Greek society is familiar with the image of the headscarf from its own traditions. I don’t think we’ll have clashes.”
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Interesting. I once wore a headscarf for three days in London as part of my thesis to see if people reacted differently to me. I didn’t notice any difference. That same experiment would be fascinating in Athens!
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I’m not sure, experience shows that seldom hijab or jewish kippah can be the cause of violent public reaction. As far as kippah, it draws attention but I feel it’s justified - the same attention is drawn to some orthodox nuns that have a variant of the burka that leaves the front face uncovered.
Now the question is what the persons personally believe or know when they see them but this is another subject.
abravanels last blog post..Burning jews…with a vengeance!
Will keep you posted about an EU project I’ve just started working for exactly on this subject. And we’ll be doing various “experiments”…so keep a look out for a big group of hijab’d women in the centre of Athens!
SmileyInside,
Looking forward to hearing more ! Keep us posted. If there is any about the project that you would like me to post, I’d be very happy to do that here !
I think any person wishing to live in a Christian society like Greece should obey Christian rules - just as many of my Christian friends working in Abu Dhabi have to obey the Muslim ways.
I think the point is that Greece is becoming more and more a multi-cultural (and multi-Faith) society, so is it really “Christian rules” that everyone should be abiding by?? And what are Christian rules anyway? Do you mean the 10 commandments? If so, these are the basis of almost every world religion anyway….including Islam.
Also if someone chooses to wear hijab in Greece are they breaking any Christian rule/law? Isn’t it just their personal way to express their Faith, which is upheld by the constitution and the UN human rights charter?
I would like to know as well, Jayjay… what Christian rules are being broken here?
As a foreigner in Greece - I am a guest in their country (whether or not you are told differently) and if something offends the majority (in a school for example to do with religion or other) then I should be asked to remove the offending object or live in another country where I am in the majority. You don’t see Western children in Muslim schools in Saudia Arabia without their heads covered out of respect for the local relgions/ customs - just as teachers I know from UK are asked to wear sensible length skirts (not trousers) and keep their arms covered to the elbow to respect local religions and customs.
Allowing children from other backgrounds to look different from other pupils causes unnecessary anguish on both sides! Try going to school in a full British uniform including tie and blazer and sit next to an Indian girl in a full colourful sari. What starts as envy soon turns to racism.
My comments are for both sides of the argument - I believe wherever you choose to live you should resepect that country’s religious beliefs and customs.
If a Greek moved to Nigeria and expected the people there to start eating souvlakia, listening to Rembetika, worshiping the Triune god, celebrating name days, read the memoirs of Makrygiannis and expect people to speak and understand Greek, one would call them a colonialist.
If a black woman goes to Athens, does not learn the language and has no interest in the local culture, one calls them an cool and trendy activist.
Strange days.
@ Jayjay:
I am still unclear as to how a headscarf might cause Greeks either angiush or envy. And are you also suggesting that Greek muslims should be denied the right to religious expression as well or does this intolerance extend only to immigrants?
@Ahistoricity
I am constantly amazed at the tolerance DD shows in allowing such snide and irrelevant remarks as yours on her site. If it were me, I would erase them without a second thought.
Paul - The intolerance (as you call it) should be to everyone - who decides to live in another country other than their own. Anyone wishing to live in another country (for whatever reasons) should abide by that country’s religious and traditional ways. Each country MUST keep it’s own identity … just look at what has happened to UK there is more hatred and racism as well as the fear of not being ‘politically correct’ than ever before due to the British people having to take a back seat to foreigners in their own country. Being told in a country where the country’s flag contains a cross that your gold cross necklace must be removed as it offends Muslim passengers in Heathrow airport is beyond belief!
So it’s acceptable for me to fly to a predominantly Muslim country and ask for the hijab to be removed as it offends me - I don’t think so!
The point about religious symbols is that if there are substantial religious minorities who are permanent residents, then the idea of one traditional identity is no longer valid. Such countries have become multicultural and mutual respect for each other’s religions [or secularity] is essential.
Of course, most undeveloped countries do not respect human rights adequately, and especially do not respect the right of religious freedom. That the Arabic countries are in this situation is hardly surprising: what is more problematic is when an EU country has the same backward mentality. This is because such a mentality is inconsistent with European contemporary values and European laws, which all EU countries are required to follow.
Of course, Ahistoricity, you are right that Greece fits in well with the political mentality of developing countries such as Nigeria. The question, really, is why is it in Europe and not on the African continent?
Finally, I have a few minutes to reply…
Jayjay, I think you misunderstand what people are trying to say. No-one is saying that Greece should change its “identity” (although all countries change over time because of migration, emigration, immigration, whether naturally or forced). There are Greek and foreign Muslims here and in a European country there is supposedly the right to freedom of religion and of expression. Comparisons to Saudi Arabia are not relevant here.
The bitterness that I read in your comments concerning Britain
is something that I’ve heard many times but I know no-one who has experienced it. It is a divisive argument used by the anti-immigration and anti-foreigner crowd and is a special favorite of the tabloid press. The same feelings were whipped up about black people not so long ago in terms of history but “we” have now turned our attention to Muslims.
Paul, I have allowed these comments because I think they speak volumes about some of the opinions out there, They are unpleasant (not as unpleasant as some that I don’t post but still…) but I also wish to have the opportunity to answer them publicly. I appreciate your concern. I used to get upset over these attacks against me, but I have come to realise that they come from ignorance and an unwillingness to actually hear what I am saying. My efforts are to try and counter that with calm and relatively polite answers of which I endlessly hope will get through.
Ahistoricity
You have no idea of my efforts to learn the language or of my interest in the local culture. I have admitted many, many times here that I am not linguistically talented but that should not detract from the effort I put in. I will say it again…
Personal attacks on people that you know nothing about are unhelpful and irrelevant. If you can’t follow the rules, please don’t comment.
Xenos, since when europeans share common values?Yes, we have different values than western europeans and a different history and geopolitical conditions too.We do have a lot of differences with western europeans for the reasons i’ve explained above and i can further explain if i have to.
And, since we’re discussing religious affairs, what about Roman Catholicism in Italy?I doubt Italians don’t consider Roman Catholicism as the dominant
religion just because a lot of Muslims immigrated to their country or because of some vague idea of common european values.
And i would really like to hear an explanation why radical ideas and movements are suddenly on the rise across Europe?Lepen in France, Lega Nord in Italy, right-wing politicians in Holland where recent events served to highlight everything is not going so well as liberals would like us to believe.I believe jayjay’s comments provide an answer.But since they are politically incorrect they are not very well received here.They reveal an unpleasant truth that politically correct postmodern liberals do not want to hear.
You can choose to close your eyes and ears, and pretend nothing is happening, but the reality won’t go away.
For the sake of informing our Greek readers, I should tell you that Italy forbids the display of the Christian cross in schools and other public places as it is a sign of intolerance of other religions. This is a clear indication that Italy accepts its multicultural status, and avoids offending non-Christians.
As far as right wing nationalists, fascists and Nazis are concerned, we did not lose them after World War II. This is nothing new. They are still fundamentally destructive and bitter people, and cannot be tolerated by civilised members of European society. Of course, the reality has not gone away, which is why the anti-fascist struggle continues. If Greeks want to support fascism, then let them: don’t pretend that this is a normal European position, though. It is a denial of everything that we have created in Europe since 1945, and of the basic human rights that very many people died fighting for in the last World War.
Well, i wouldn’t call Sarkozy a Nazi or a fascist.I wouldn’t be surprised if you do, but i would be lying if i told you i didn’t expect it.His strict immigration agenda and his strict immigration laws have attracted popular support though.
In case you haven’t noticed illegal immigration has been pretty high on the european union’s agenda recently.The problem is that apart from idealistic rhetoric the left can not provide realistic answers to the problems facing contemporary EuropeMaybe that explains the rebublican party’s dominance in the US for the most part of the last 30 years too?
Sarkozy, like most second or third generation immigrants who enter politics, is a nationalist rather than a fascist. He hides his own immigrant origins by attacking other more recent immigrants: this is a typical game of politicians and should be treated with the disdain befitting all hypocrisy.
Illegal immigration is an issue because politicians everywhere have kow-towed to the ignorance of nationalists and xenophobes, while the jobs have had to be filled by illegal immigrants instead of legal ones. Whose fault is that? I would suggest either the xenophobes or the politicians, but not the immigrants who are just looking for a way to survive. And it is not the fault of the Left that stupid people have been running things for the last few decades and causing these problems.
It’s very typical of the left to accuse voters of stupidity, when they turn their back to the left.
It’s true that most immigrants, if they had a choice, would choose to stay in their homeland.But do you believe that Europe can accommodate an infinite number of immigrants?
With unemployment in Europe being among the highest post-war levels it is true that immigrants may be used as a scapegoat so politicians can avoid implementing unpopular structural reforms.I’m not very sure that the left would support these painful and unpopular yet necessary reforms.It’s also true that at the same time, because of the free movement of capital, FDI in third world countries and immigrants serving as cheap labor, there are hard times ahead for unskilled workers.
People are looking for realistic answers about what should be done.If “you” can’t provide them, don’t blame them for turning elsewhere.
Greek peasant: as you seem to be asking serious and reasonable questions, I am happy to reply on these points. I think there are answers, but they are not pleasant ones. The first thing to say is that the problems of advanced capitalism do not have answers within the dogmas of Left or Right; since I do not categorise myself in this way, this is not of personal concern. It is of concern for our political systems, however. In other words, all political parties have got it wrong.
The second point to make is that unskilled and semi-skilled workers in developed countries face a difficult time: this is because they expect reasonable wages and employers do not intend to pay them. In some sectors, it is because employers cannot survive in their business if they pay good wages; in other sectors, they can esaily afford to do so and simply take advantage of the situation and prefer cheap workers. Some of these workers are part-time Europeans or Americans, others are young and on very low wages; some are illegal; and yet others are immigrants (legal and illegal). Basically, anyone without marketable skills is in a tough situation in the modern world.
The third point to make is that trade unions, after the fiascos of the 1970s and 1980s, have woken up to the realities of the modern world. Their approach to immigrant workers is that they must be legal and paid the same as native workers: anything else reduces the wage levels massively and also allows employers to abuse the legal and social rights of workers. Unfortunately, uneducated people take a very narrow view, and do not follow their unions: they simply blame immigrants for unemployment, or low wages, or excess demands on public services, etc.
What answers are there? There are some:
(1) in countries where there are unfilled posts, legal immigration should be encouraged because otherwise it turns into illegal immigration flows
(2) minimum wage levels should be set for every industry, and should reflect the profitability of that industry.
(3) people should not expect to be employed as a matter of right: skills and training are essential components of employability [this last point is very valid for Greece].
This is exactly what I think is wrong …..
Quote from Xenos ‘For the sake of informing our Greek readers, I should tell you that Italy forbids the display of the Christian cross in schools and other public places as it is a sign of intolerance of other religions. This is a clear indication that Italy accepts its multicultural status, and avoids offending non-Christians.’
Other countries out of Europe would never do that for Christians!
Devious Diva - It’s true what I say about the UK - my family and friends are there - they have to put up with soft laws concerning newcomers to UK (not necessarily Muslim). You came to Greece - you knew you had to work for your chosen life style - you knew there were going to be no handouts. However, due to very wrong laws in UK - new arrivals are given houses, handouts and basically a free ride on British tax payers money.
As you mentioned ‘blacks’ let me point out that lately it seems that now the more the non-blacks try to be ‘politically correct’ the blacks tend to get more and more racist towards whites. I watched a film the other day where 99% of the actors were black (I have no problems with this) but it was the comments that got to me ‘ Skinny white bitch’s ass’ and many many more! There are plenty of such films out now and a time when we are trying to fight racism. My neice (in UK) who is mixed race (she tends to forget she’s part white as well) is going to a ‘Black comedian night’ next week with pathetic comedians like Chris Rock from USA who is extremely racist. The content as advertised is totally racist towards whites. It seems it’s politically correct these days to make racist remarks if you are non-white but not if you are white.
Which goes back to my original comment. Why is it ok for one religion to request the removal of a certain symbol of their religion (cross) when it is not ok for another to ask for the removal of a piece of clothing that represents their religion (hijab) - Personally I think the world would be a better place if all religions were abolished and we were all made to be politically correct towards each other (what’s good for the goose is good for the gander’)!
Jayjay: much of what you say is true, and those of us who believe in tolerance and respect for others will agree with a lot of it. Yes, it is true that countries outside of Europe do not respect the rights of Christians (for example). It is also true (I have been a victim of it) that there is now racial discrimination practised by black people against white in the UK, and this is also true in the USA. I am not so sure that the alleged preferential treatment of new arrivals in the UK is true, as I have understood it to be equal treatment.
Nevertheless, the basic principle of equality and respect for others still stands. The fact that some countries and some people behave badly means nothing, other than we need to puish thee values more aggressively. I imagine that you respect the right to life, and would not condone murder. The fact that many murders occur does not make you suggest that we should reconsider murder as a crime. We have to distinguish between others’ poor behaviour and the standards that we aspire to.
In the area of Thrace there are places where the majority of the population is muslim and has a history of centuries residing in that area, whereas the majority of the christians are refugees that arrived from the 1923 exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. In these places should the cross be displayed? What is the “(greek) identity” in these places that many readers have referred to?
What are the “christian rules”? The term “jewish greek” is older than the “christian greek” and jewish greeks have lived in Greece for more than 2000 years. Do they need to abide by the “christian rules”, that jayjay invoked, to live in this country?
One can argue on the need to install to new immigrants the need to accept the rules of a society that is based on the acceptance but also on Civil Liberties. This means that marriage for minors or honour crimes are not to be tolerated. On the other hand this does not include whether one can wear a hijab or not.
And i would really like to hear an explanation why radical ideas and movements are suddenly on the rise across Europe?
FUD= fear uncertainty doubt
The changes in world economy and modern society are to blame and not immigrants. If it was the physical presence of immigrants neccessary for radicalism to grow, then in modern day Greece there should be no antisemitism since there are only a handful of Jews. And still we have a sharp rise the last 10 years.
ps. Italy does not remove crosses from schools and public buildings. The Supreme Court has denied such demand presented by a muslim italian.
abravanels last blog post..May 17th, Day against Homophobia
abravanel, we do not know whether the term Greek Jew is not older than Greek Christian because the term Greek was not used in antiquity. There are some references to “Greeks” in some Roman/Latin texts but this usually refered to some Hellenic tribes in western Greece. The term used to signify Greeks in antiquity was Hellene. Jews were referred to as Jews regardless of whether they lived in Corinth or Smyrna. Your attempts to revise history to legitimise Jewish claims to the Greece are ludicrous to say the least.
Your thesis that “radical ideas” are spreading because of fear, uncertainty and any other carnard you would like to bring forth is probably wrong. Is there more fear now than in the early 1980’s when nuclear weapons where being pointed across Europe? Is there more fear now than when oil prices increased and inflation spiked up in the 1970’s? Your assertions cannot be corroborated with the empirical evidence.
The reason why “radical ideas” (not sure why autonomy is a radical idea) are spreading across Europe is because the ruling elites confuse the normative with the positive i.e. a multicultural Utopia with the reality that people prefer to live amongst people of a similar culture. This is not disimilar than Israeli attempts to live apart from the “dirty peasant Palestinians” in Israel/Palestine. Are you in favour of a one state solution where in 10-20 years Jews will be outnumbered? Probably not. Therefore, this should help you to understand why people want to live somewhat apart from the Other. There is nothing wrong with this - it does not mean they believe the Other is inferior.
“this should help you to understand why people want to live somewhat apart from the Other”
What I understand is racial intolerance, bigotry and rejection of the right to difference. I also understand a complete refusal of many Greeks to accept fundamental principles of human rights law which is required for an EU member state. Fine: leave Europe and join the Myanmar regime type. I am sure some of the descendants of the 1967 Colonels would assist you. Until you leave the EU, you accept our rules and our standards, along with our money.
The jewish greeks that lived in Thessaloniki or Veria around 50CE spoke greek, had greek names and essentially were a part a “greek community”. How do I revise history dumb greek peasant? Who did Apostle Paul come to visit around that time? Isn’t it true that he was allowed to preach in the synagogue Etz Haim of Thessaloniki for three consecutive Saturdays? I repeat, are they less Thessaloniceans because the majority of the population today is christian? Or that jews who live in Thessaloniki for more than 2000 years should be segregated because they are the other?
By I forgot…there are the infamous jewish claims on Greece!
abravanels last blog post..May 17th, Day against Homophobia
“Until you leave the EU, you accept our rules and our standards, along with our money”
That’s somewhat arrogant, Xenos.Don’t you agree?If you are in any way involved with the EU i would suggest you avoid such arrogant behaviour when dealing with people in Greece or any other member state for that matter.
The jews were a very active community in Thessaloniki, which is my hometown by the way, until the Nazi occupation during WWII.They would still be had it not been for these tragic events.
The majority of the downtown shops were owned by jewish enterpreneuers and they were also involved in trade, and their contribution to the economic activity of the city was quite significant.
In fact, despite being more conservative than the rest of the country, we have a quite diverse history.
Greek peasant: what you wrote was arrogant. What I wrote is the law and also the political agreement made on behalf of the Greek population by the government when it acceded to the EU. The fact that Greeks don’t see why they should obey any rules is not of interest to me. You may think it arrogant to demand that Greeks obey the law and keep to agreements: most of the world does not.
Xenos:Judging by the tone of your comment, i doubt most people wouldn’t find it arrogant.
You didn’t make any reference to the common EU law or the EU agreements the greek government agreed to abide to when the country decided to join the EU.You mentioned *your* rules and *your* money(i fail to understand how anyone wouldn’t find THAT arrogant).
Seems more like a command to me, rather than any appeal to the EU laws, values or standards.That would have been more suitable coming from the head commander of an occupation force, rather than an EU official if you are one.
“Our” rules means the rules of European countries, as agreed through the Council of Ministers, ratified by the European Parliament and usually ratified by national parliaments. They have nothing to do with me personally. Those EU citizens who try to exact their rights in Greece are very aware of how little respect there is for the law in this country, and how little tolerance or acceptance of long-term residents who are not Greek. This is what we are talking about, not the fake arguments that you are trying to distract with.
As usual, your Greek method of discussion avoids the real issues and focuses upon personal attacks or crude political/nationalistic ideologies. It doesn’t matter who I am, what job I do, or even how politely I express opinions: the validity of these opinions is what should concern people.
While “our” money means a country is bought and paid for?Let’s let people decide whether your comment was arrogant or not.I don’t have any doubts though about the reaction of the british, or even the french and the german for that matter, people if a similar comment was targeted at them
Another petty attempt to cast a bad light on the greeks and Greece in general.You consider yourself the victim of personal attacks while you talk about my *greek*way of discussion.You are not referring to my way of discussion but my *greek* way of discussion.Snobist and racist remarks from someone trying to take a moral high ground?I think so.
If you want to concetrate on the real issues better talk about them, without making wild generalisations and remarks about *greek* ways of discussion.
And i think how politely someone expresses his opinions is as important as the very opinions he wants to express.
Ok, i’ll post as northerner from now on.Sorry, i’m not very good at picking usernames and that’s the best i could come up with.
I’m referring to deviousdiva’s request to change my username from greek peasant to something else.
abravanel, do not project modern conceptions of community back into antiquity. We do not really know if they were considered “part” of the community anymore than Egyptians or Syrians. There is evidence to the contrary. For example, Lucian in the 3rd century AD still felt to be inadequate because he was only half Greek by birth. If he felt like this considering his excellent command of the Greek language then Jews, who were considered to have very strange manners, may have felt even more isolated.
If we flip the situation around. Greeks have lived in what is today considered Israel at least from the 4th century BC. Are they considered less Israeli (although the stsate of Israel was only created in 1949) than some Jews who migrated there after the Nakba?
Northerner, the name is fine. Please consider sticking to it so that we don’t get confused as to who we are talking to. You don’t need the “formerly known as” bit!
A Greek with No Name… ok. same goes for you (about the “formerly known as”). I realise that changing your name for each discussion is funny to you, but it’s a bit tedious for those of us who are trying to communicate.
Apologies, Diva. I am just not sure what I should call myself. I am even considering dropping the “Greek” from The Greek with No Name because it may cause offense to someone.
That’s fine Greek with No Name. I know I sound a bit harsh about this subject of names but I’ve put up with almost three years of people “playing” with me here. Some people used to change their names with each discussion to get around my moderation filter. Now I have implemented a new system here it has become less problematic (i.e. If you post with a new name, the message will automatically be moderated).
My issue now is that it’s hard for people to have a “conversation” and build a picture of individuals who comment if they don’t realise that you are the same person who wrote something before. If that makes sense ?
Thank you for your understanding.
xenos, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but EU is about the Euro, free movement of capital, workers services etc ( all very good things by the way).
It is not primarily about human rights. the EU will tolerate huge abuses of HR to keep the economic project going.
Do you really think that countries like romania or bulgaria have better HR records than greece ? should I mention founding member italy and berlusconi who is trying to get rid of romanian roma EU citizens ? or the south dominated by the mafia ?
a lot of these problems are not an exclusive phenomenon to greece. I would never bring these examples up to justify the shortcomings of greece. I don’t believe greece has the right to ignore HR just because others do.
I just think it’s hypocritical to say greece should be kicked out of the EU, because if they started kicking countries out there wouldn’t be that many left.