Insofar as the ethnic composition of the region’s population is concerned, there are several points to be made. [None of them has anything to do with things on WP.] First, the historical evidence is very clear that the inhabitants of the region did not consider themselves to be Greeks or Bulgarians, but “Macedonians” regardless of which language they spoke. This is not derived from Ottoman census data, but from various historical investigations which can easily be found. THe Ottoman population datasets tend to show a low proportion of “Greeks” in various definitions, and in some regions of modern Greece in 1904 there were no Greeks at all. The ambiguity arises in that many people spoke Greek and could be classified as Greeks; for centuries, Greek was the language of educated people, and this had been very aggressively promoted by the Church. Therefore, speaking Greek meant little, in terms of identity. However, this tends to be the definition that Greece favours — for obvious reasons.

THe accounts of the atrocities of the Balkan Wars are well documented too, but few Greeks want to hear about them. The villages that were left alone tended to have Greek speakers living in them; those without, were mostly burned down and their inhabitants killed or fled as refugees. Insofar as concerns who participated in the Exchange of Populations, you will note that Greece exchanged only about 500.000 Muslims: some of these were Greeks anyway, so the whole exercise was flawed. Very few “Bulgarians” were exchanged with Bulgaria, and most of these people remained in Greece and just adapted to the status quo.

My point is not to promote the irredentism of the Republic of Macedonia: what was done was done, and we cannot reverse history. It is simply to tell you that Greece does not own the name of Macedonia. The Greek borders must be left as they are, and stability is needed in this region. The nationalism of non-Greek Macedonians is not aceptable either: this is where the arguments should be directed, not with absurd propositions of cultural authenticity and suchlike. And I still insist, that economic and political power matter more than anything else in shaping realities: this is the way forward for Greece.

If the ones that were not slaughtered were all made refugees who the fuck was exchanged with Bulgaria and Turkey? The Martians? And who formed the Slavomacedonian separatist units during WWII? Confused Greeks? While in the case of Kilkis and environs especially indeed one can speak of the creation of vacant spaces (it was largely Bulgarian-inhabited and ethno-cleansed of Bulgarians in the same manner that Serres were cleansed of Greeks by the Bulgarians) the vacant spaces were created mostly by ~400000 or more Muslims that were exchanged (the biggest single group in Greek Macedonia as the more numerous Christians were divided along religious as well as ethnic lines). I guess Greece should have distributed the lands they left behind to their Christian neighbors and left the exchanged refugees to live in permanent poverty to satisfy your humanist sensitivities. Ethnic cleansing (employed by all sides in the Balkans, not just the Greeks) is definitely shameful (although there’s enough hypocrisy to go around as the colonial Western powers that would do the criticizing at the time were very much involved in it elsewhere at the time). But the first in modern Western history? I guess if you start it in 1912…

And why the quotations marks around “Bulgarian”? Do you have a source where Greeks themselves claim to be killing “Macedonians”? Or you’d rather go back in time and teach them that they were not killing who they believed to be killing?

Regarding the 20% etc. - thankfully some people actually took some of the material in Wilkinson’s definitive work on the ethnography of Ottoman Macedonia and put it up on Wikipedia so anyone can understand (that is if they want to understand rather than reproduce the same tired talking points).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D....._Macedonia
The numbers are extremely fluid depending on what ones defines as Macedonia (which Ottoman administrative regions) and also on whether one uses language or religion as a more clear indication of national allegiance. Not to mention that each source reflected the interests of their side (directly or indirectly) on Macedonia. But even Bulgarian and Serbian maps show the bottom half of Greek Macedonia as Greek (so much for “the region was never Greek”) and they considered all Slav speakers to be non-Greek irrespective of the fact that they stuck to the Greek side in the face of a lot of pressure to switch to the Exarchy. And the line between the Patriarchate and the Exarchy dominated areas was much further to the north.

As for the name changes - which happened all over Greece in the 20’s and 30’s in an effort to cleanse the non-Greek toponyms - what do they mean exactly? My father’s village in the border of Roumeli became Pelasgia from Gardiki (think of the Slavic Grad). Your point?

Finally the nonsense about making them dependent on us: Despite the massive investment they still talk of an occupied Aegean Macedonia. I guess they don’t understand your superior Western logic. Maybe instead of telling Greeks how silly they are you should teach them a lesson as to how they should react. But I forget - it’s only Greek nationalism that gets to your sensitive nerves.

You guys can have Texas.

Just leave New York, California and Florida alone, OK ?

Secondly, the real issue now is the viability of this tiny country which calls itself Republic of Macedonia. Greece should be very concerned about this, for several reasons:
(a) Greece is the biggest investor there
(b) The country has real political instability with 30% Albanians, concentrated in the border region with Albania
(c) the USA has taken too strong an interest in that country.

What would be the intelligent thing for Greece to do? [forgive me for laughing at this concept]: it would be to make Macedonia so dependent on Greece politically, economically and militarily such that there is no danger to Greece. Instead, we have this childish nonsense about who “owns” the name, or the flag, or this or that. Far from making an ally of the country, Greece has made itself an enemy.

So, when it all falls apart and Greece is marginalised in political and military reality, nobody will have any sympathy. Greek nationalism will have taken you there, and you will pay the price for that stupidity.

AS MACEDONIA , 1) BECAUSE THE STATUS QUO OF

AMERICAN IMPERIALISM REALMS THAT THERE BE A STRONG

ARMED COYNTRY TO DEFEND AMERICAN INTERESTS ,,MAINLY

THE “BOYRGAS-TIRANA ” OIL PIPELINE , IN ORDER TO KEEP

IN CHECK THE WORLDS OIL , THIS COYNTRY WILL BE

ALBANIA WHICH WILL ANNEX A PART OF EX-MACEDONIA

ESPECIALLY THE PART WHICH THE PIPELINE RUNS THRU .

AN AMERICAN ARMY BASE ALREADY HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED

ILLEGALY BETWEEN

ALBANIA-FYROM MACADONIA .

IT IS THE LARGEST ARMY

BASE IN THE WORLD , CONSISTING OF SEVERAL BATTLE READY BATTALIONS

OF SEVERAL THOYSAND (SOME SAY 5300 , READY TROOPS –300 APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTERS ?)

I MEAN ARE THEY WAITING FOR ALL HELL TO BREAK LOSE ?

OR ARE THEY GOING TO INCITE UNREST…?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,ANYWAYS WHATEVER DOESNT STAY WITH ALBANIA

THRU SOME KIND VOTE ,,

WILL PROBABLY HEAD ON DOWN SOUTH OF THE BORDER

AND GET A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP AS AN ANNEXED GREEK TERITTORY

OR IN ALL HUMILIATION THE AMERICANS WILL BUY IT AS COYNTRY

(AND NOW THEY CAN BUY SOME HISTORY , BECAUSE WHEN YOU DONT HAVE ROOTS AS A COYNTRY ,, YOU BUY SOME ,, SIMPLE AS THAT.)
/
/
/
/(MAYBE MAKE A MOVIE IN HOLLYWOOD
ABOUT ALEXANDER THE GREAT
……….BEFORE TO SOFTEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE )
/
SO THEY KNOW WHAT KIND HISTORY COMES WITH THE COYNTRY
/
THEIR BUYING………………….!
/
/
/MAYBE MAKE ANOTHER MOVIE TO PISS OFF THE IRANIANS(PERSIANS)
LIKE the “300″ SPARTANS ……………..thus piss off the arab population in general against the greek population ,
.

when americans ever since HENRY KISSINGER
(FOREIGN STATE -NIXON PRESIDENCY)
.
used to say about greeks , that their anarchists and cant be controlled,
so lets wipe them off the map , take away their way of life
LANGUAGE , history , change them ……betray them against natural allies
as is the arab world ,

well i think the time is nearing ,,, as it (THE EVIL EMPIRE )
heads closer to my home, ,,…….FOR a showdown with craziest of the lot .
.
your funeral guys, personaly i’m gonna die defending my coyntry
what are YOU dying for ,, besides cheneys riches….xmmm?
.
.
blowin steam ….. thank you =Z A R D O Z =
.
.
.
.
.
P.S. macedinian ,,,.? what macedonian ethinicity..?
.
.I HAVE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS ON THE SUPPOSED MACEDONIAN
ETHINICITY , BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS ITS ROOTS IS LIKE
.
TIBET ,,,,long long time ago in the kingdom of tibet
there lived a beautiful tibetan princess , one day
a roving prince of th hu dynasty passing by for trade in india
saw her , and fell in love . …..long story short
communist china (edo gelane) remembered 700 years later
that the tibetans hadnt payed a dowry when the 131ST crown prince
stole the tibetan princess . so they proceeded to take over the whole
coyntry .
This macedonian issue apart from what i am writing on top
is somewhat the same with the tibetan issue.
……………….
……….i think ITS 1380 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
AND 20 TO 30 FAMILIES BREAK OFF FROM THE
BYZANTINE EMPEROR APARENTLY PUNISHED FROM HIM
THEY ARE TRYING TO BREAK AWAY , AND MAKE A NEW KINGDOM ,,?
OR OTHER.
THEY DONT MAKE IT
THE EMPEROR STRIPS THEM OF LANDS AND TITLES AND RICHES
and they are left with nothing .
Seeing as this takes place geographically between todays city of veroia
and the old city of syrakou(now an abandoned village) in IPIRUS
they were all displaced all over, even in romania and austria and moldavia.
result and this is the story as i get it and my own personal view,
these are the remnants of an old story to go against the emperor
.
and restore the macedonian kingdom
(gave them somethin to gather about
something like arthur and the round table fable).
.this gave some people asense
of local ethinicity , the supposed macedonian dialect is the greek byzantine dialect of this story ,

anyways some people have remained in the past,
trying to find ways to get back lands and riches of forefathers
long gone .

just the same if their are two people or more that want to be called
a macedonian minority thats fine .

if i can help fine ,
BUT IF ALTERNATE INTERESTS OF OTHER COYNTRIES
ARE AT TOP OF THE AGENDA , USING SUPPOSED MACEDONIANS

AND THEY USE ETHNIC GROYPS AS A CARVING GAME
FOR THE DISMEMBERING OF COYNTRY AS IS ,
THIS IS PROBLEM , ON A PERSONAL BASIS.

……SO … TOO BAD.!.

–P.S.—–SAY GEORGE ,,

I’M gathiring a petition of people with common upbringing
.
in the united states , see if you can sign
.
were already 15,000 thoysand strong
.
we think thats enough to proclaim a part of attica

as the ” new texas ” what do you say,,

lets stick it to ol”’e george W bush…………….=Z=

The USA looks out 100 years. Since the world in the next 100 years will be merging ever so united (i.e., United Europe, United Asia etc), it’s only a matter of time before none of this nonsense over names really means anything.

If you follow the trend toward one world government that seems to be where we are heading the USA recognition of Macedonia truly doesn’t really matter.

By all means, let’s recognize a Macedonian minority in Macedonia (in the same vein that we would talk of a Welsh minority in Wales) and with one simple move accept their logic and interpretation of history that says that Greeks are foreign occupiers and colonizers in Macedonia. After all, the natives of Wales are the Welsh etc…. As for the Greeks that were living in Macedonia before 1912, the ones that were speaking Greek were in fact (self-)Hellenized Macedonians, Vlachs and Albanians as Dimitras’ friends and funders in MHRMI can very well explain to you - all others were sell-outs to their true nations of Macedonia, Albania and Wallachia/Rumania. Of course if one actually believes this crap there’s nothing wrong with arguing that Greece should do it to avoid the bad press… In fact we should go even further and demand that all of us with non-Greek speaking roots break the shell of our faux-Greekness and embrace our minority status so that Greece can get some good publicity for it’s multiethnic mosaic! ;->

Anyway, Dora the other day acknowledged the existence of SlavoMacedonians in Greece while at the same time noting their lack of numbers - easily seen by the electoral support for their party (in Euroelections none-the-less where there can be no excuse for not voting for the only party claiming to represent a large oppressed minority). Unfortunately she and many other Greeks seem to think that a minority needs to meet either a special numerical strength test or be described in a treaty to qualify as such (a type of logic that might have been OK in the past but is not in vogue in a world where the tiniest minority is being sought out). It’s probably because they think that bestowing the label minority immediately implies the requirement for special treatment (including schooling etc.) which would be the case if Greece had ratified the FCPNM. It has not and does not plan to AFAIK.

But let’s assume for a moment that the greek government were to come out tomorrow and state the obvious: that beyond the muslim (which mostly self-identifies as Turkish) minority in Thrace that is under a special status due to the treaty of Lausanne there are some other groups of citizens in Greece that do not identify as Greek nationally, including some Slavomacedonians. The usual crowd would be up in arms because the minority’s right to self-identify as plain old Macedonians is infringed upon. Screw the fact that acceptance of that name without any qualifier would make all other Macedonians settlers and 2nd rate inhabitants. Screw the fact that the same groups’ forefathers actually used the Slavo- prefix in naming their separatist guerilla organization SNOF during the German occupation. This is self-determination after all! And please spare me the nonsense Dimitras’ friends in OT serve her excellency the SecOfState and Co. about “ethnic Macedonian” being enough of a qualifier - an ethnic XXXin is obviously the native of XXXia while a Greek or Bulgarian XXXian is just an inhabitant. Anyway, as Greeks are apparently proven - by DNA studies - to be sub-Saharan African settlers of the Balkans (again compliments of Dimitras’ friends - as we say “show me your friends and I will tell you who you are”) I guess they are probably right.

As for the ECHR decision in 1998 (Sidiropoulos and Others vs. Greece) a little bit of accuracy would be nice: The charge was “freedom of association” regarding the registration of the “Home of Macedonian Culture” and not the non-recognition of a minority.

As for the idiotic about “great honor” and the restaurant name it’s not worth responding to.

I leave you with a photo/video of the protest “about the name” (the huge United Macedonia banner speaks volumes about what their national ideal stands for) that the Greek media chose not to report:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=L97Q3G_4Mok
Notice the salute with the 3 fingers and the circle at the end - it stands for the 3 parts of Macedonia (theirs, Greece’s and Bulgaria’s) united (the circle). And now for a photo of the PM of our neighbour paying tribute to the same flag:
http://img.photobucket.com/alb.....er7/1q.jpg

I think these people are as macedonian as it can possibly get.
what I have issues with is not that they call themselves macedonian, but that the nationalists among them (and nationalism there is rife -just like in northern greece) make all these ridiculous historical arguments involving alexander the great and phillip and vergina etc, and talk about “freeing” macedonia from the greeks.
I repeat : it is hypocritical to denounce greek nationalism and not its various counterparts.
I could use tit-for-tat arguments about how they don’t recognise their own bulgarian minority for the same reasons we don’t recognise theirs, but I really think that this leads to a vicious circle where human rights are dosregarded because “the others are doing the same”.
I really wish the greek people had the maturity to understand that the thing about human rights is that they are universal, and do not only apply to greek minorities abroad (see istanbul, northern epirus, cyprus etc) but also to the non-greek minorities living in greece. however this would involve being taught about human rights in school, i.e. the political will (that involves a great deal of risk) to want to change things…

anyway, guys I am soon off to the airport for a weekend in berlin, so please don;t be offended if I don’t answer as promptly. If four days later anybody still wants to pick up this conversation, I will gladly engage them

I agree with Condi who said we should move on past antiquities.

All Greece does is bring more bad press to itself by this childish behavior.

As Dimitras has said, whether or not a name is recognized, the minority will be recognized.

As far as conspiracy theories go (and Greeks are fond of them), I heard my neighbor say that maybe Karamanlis and Bush have an agreement that Greece will veto Macedonia’s entry into Nato, and in the end Karamanlis will look strong in the eyes of the Greek people, standing up to Bush.

Then, quietly over the next few years, the USA will reap the benefits of giving Karamanlis a little credibility today.