Greek Prosecutor’s Racist Statement
Published by deviousdiva March 5th, 2008 in Racism.I apologise for being late with this issue. I was caught up with various other problems on this blog and actually forgot that I had meant to post it.
From the Open Society Justice Initiative
Athens, February 5, 2008
Human rights groups today denounced as racist a statement by Greece’s top prosecutor suggesting that certain ethnic groups are involved in crime. The rights groups demanded an apology and retraction.
The Open Society Justice Initiative and Greek Helsinki Monitor were reacting to a statement made by Supreme Court Prosecutor George Sanidas in December 2007. Sanidas, in describing crime in a section of Athens, singled out as perpetrators “foreign women of African and non-African origin” and “athinganoi.” The latter term is a pejorative reference to Roma. Sanidas has not amended or retracted his statement in the weeks since he made it.
“Despite public criticism, Sanidas has not retracted or apologized for his remarks,” said Panayote Dimitras, spokesperson for Greek Helsinki Monitor. “As a result of this racial profiling, African women and Roma street vendors have been targeted and harassed by police. This racism is especially disturbing when it comes from Greece’s top prosecutor; there is no place for such an attitude in 21st century Europe.”
Sanidas made the statement in an order to the chief of the Hellenic Police, calling for a crackdown on crime in the historical center of Athens. The term ‘athinganoi’ is widely recognized as offensive; a Greek police memo states as much and says it should not be used by law enforcement officials.
“It is unprofessional and inexcusable for the chief prosecutor to make blanket accusations that members of a particular ethnic group are involved in criminal activity,” said Robert O. Varenik, acting executive director of the Open Society Justice Initiative. “Profiling entire communities on the basis of their national origins is the prelude to wholesale disregard of their rights, and such openly offensive language adds insult to injury.”
The rights groups noted that Sanidas’ words were just the latest in a string of anti-Roma statements by Greek law enforcement authorities. They also noted that by targeting a specific racial or ethnic group, police are engaging in ethnic profiling, which violates European and international human rights standards.
In fact, in December 2007 Greece was found guilty of discrimination by the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Petropoulou-Tsakiris v. Greece. The court found a “general discriminatory attitude on the part of the authorities” while investigating claims by a Roma woman of police brutality . The woman claimed she was kicked by police during a search and subsequently miscarried as a result of the beating. The official investigation into her claims was not “sufficiently thorough and effective,” the court ruled.
The Justice Initiative is currently working to expose and reduce the practice of ethnic profiling by police throughout Europe; a Justice Initiative book examining ethnic and racial profiling in Europe will be published later this year.
Technorati: greece, racism, african women, roma, racial profiling
He should be dismissed from public office, as he is not capable of carrying out his function lawfully. It is an outrage that the holder of the office of Public Prosecutor should dare to express his/her racism so openly and actually advocate it as public policy. Clearly, there is no shame.
Xenos, welcome to my blog. I believe you’ve commented here before and I didn’t respond. Apologies for that. I hope you will stay around and become a regular reader here. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posts. Thank you.
I agree with you that he should be dismissed. Unlikely that that will happen but we can always hope…
It would quite a thing here for a holder of public office to be held responsible for their words and actions ?
he ain’t alone - see below (and remember the antisemitism of a prosecutor in the first leg of the Plevris trial)
P.
GREEK HELSINKI MONITOR (GHM)
Address: P.O. Box 60820, GR-15304 Glyka Nera
Telephone: ( 30) 2103472259 Fax: ( 30) 2106018760
e-mail: office@greekhelsinki.gr website: http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr
PRESS RELEASE
20 April 2007
Council of Europe calls on Greece to respect Roma rights, investigate evictions in Patras and racist statement of Supreme Court Deputy Prosecutor
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) disseminates excerpts from the 17 April 2007 proceedings in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) on Roma evictions in Greece in general and Patras in particular and the racist statement by Supreme Court Deputy Prosecutor Anastasios Kanellopoulos. The text includes the oral question by Latvia’s socialist MP Boris Cilevics and the reply by the San Marino’s Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Fiorenzo Stolfi who chairs the Committee of Ministers (CM). GHM notes that once again the state Athens News Agency did not report on this serious human rights debate concerning Greece. GHM welcomes the fact that the Committee of Ministers this time subscribed to the related conclusions of the Commissioner for Human Rights in contrast with the CM’s previous reply to a written question by the same MP which were solely based on the Greek state’s positions. GHM also considers important the CM’s expectation that Greece will investigate the racist statements of the one of Greece’s top prosecutors that “Patras should not be turned into a gyp-town.”
AACR13_2007
AS (2007) CR 13
2007 ORDINARY SESSION
________________________
(Second part)
REPORT
Thirteenth sitting
Tuesday 17 April 2007 at 3 p.m.
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.a.....71500E.htm
(…)
4. Communication from the Committee of Ministers
(…)
The first question is No. 1, tabled by Mr Cilevics, relating to the situation of Roma in Patras.
“Question No. 1:
Mr Cilevics,
In June 2005, the Committee of Ministers adopted a resolution on the violation of the Social Charter by Greece. The European Committee of Social Rights found that, one year later, Greece had not redressed the situation.
In its answer to my related Written Question No. 502, the Committee of Ministers included only information provided by the Greek authorities, while completely disregarding the conclusions of the European Committee of Social Rights, as well as findings of the Council of Europe Commissioner for the Human Rights arising from his September 2006 visit regarding the illegal evictions of Roma in Patras.
Recent NGO information indicates that the problems remain as acute as ever. The Deputy Supreme Court Prosecutor justified the evictions and stated that “Patras should not be turned into a gyp-town”.
To ask the Chairperson of the Committee of Ministers,
Does the Committee of Ministers intend to further address the situation of Roma evictions in Patras, in particular, in view of the Commissioner for Human Rights’ findings; and
Does the Committee of Ministers intend to invite the Greek authorities to investigate the alleged illegal actions in respect of the Patras Roma, as well as the allegedly racist statements by the Deputy Supreme Court Prosecutor?”
Mr Stolfi, will you please answer this question?
Mr STOLFI (Translation). – The Committee of Ministers is closely monitoring the situation of the Roma in Greece. As the Commissioner for Human Rights pointed out in a letter to the Greek Minister of the Interior, evictions must be carried out only in exceptional circumstances and in a reasonable manner. The persons concerned should be allowed to challenge the eviction measure before the relevant courts.
In its reply dated February 2007, to which the honourable parliamentarian refers, the Committee of Ministers took note of the measures taken by the Greek authorities to redress the situation reported by the European Committee of Social Rights. It encouraged the Greek authorities to continue their efforts and to report to the European Committee of Social Rights on the progress made in implementing measures to redress the situation in question.
As Chair of the Committee of Ministers, I welcome this information and I trust that Greece will carefully consider the comments made by the Commissioner and the European Committee of Social Rights and continue to take all the necessary measures to improve the living conditions of the Roma. I would also like to point out that the Council of Europe – and assuredly the Greek Government – considers any racist or xenophobic remarks to be unacceptable. I therefore assume that the Greek authorities will examine these allegations with particular care.
THE PRESIDENT. – Thank you. Would you like to ask a supplementary question, Mr Cilevics?
Mr CILEVICS (Latvia). – Yes, I would. The situation that we are discussing occurred two years ago and we still have hope, so do you agree that the Committee of Ministers should back the activities of Council of Europe bodies and that it should not disregard the findings of the human rights commissioner and European committees?
THE PRESIDENT. – Would you like to reply, Mr Stolfi?
Mr STOLFI said that he could assure the member that the Committee of Ministers supported the work done by other bodies in this area.
THE PRESIDENT. – Thank you.
Xenos and DD, do take a moment to explain to me how exactly a public prosecutor could or should be “dismissed” and by whom.
In the USA, if a public figure or gov’t official makes a racist comment, the public outrage is so intense, they are forced to resign. If they don’t, their power is reduced to zilch.
In serious countries, racism is taken seriously. I suppose that’s the point.
Well, of course, the very idea that people employed (at high pay) to do an important public job in Greece should be accountable to the society is absurd, I agree. I cannot imagine what we were all thinking.
George, fair enough. Anyway, i’d like to read the whole statement made by Sanidas and its context. The word Αθίγγανοι for example as far as i know is not pejorative.
Xenos, you used the word “dismissed”, did you not? As i understand it, there needs to be someone who does all the “dismissing” job. Who is that? Who dismisses judges when they make statements that he considers to be racist in your country? (supposing you’re not greek). By whom do you want Sanidas to be dismissed here? Who do you think should have the power to dismiss judges at will?
I could really appreciate some answers, if i wanted irony and bigotry i could find much better in many greek blogs.
well, I think a very public outcry might cause him to resign? I realise that judges and the like are in secure positions and that it is hard to get rid of them, but surely there must be some accountability for their words or actions ?
Just because none of us can actually fire him, does that make what he said right ?
I realise that you do not find what you are looking for on this blog and that you find more interest in other Greek blogs. I respect that. There are many, many great ones out there. I just do what I do as best I can.
I hope at least you can appreciate the time people here take to answer your queries (even if it’s not the answer you desire)
DD, i appreciate your answering me. A few weeks ago, when i first commented on your blog you were also urging your readers to do their best to have some other judge instructed what to do by the mayor of athens or the secretary of state. Now you were calling for the dismissal of another judge for similar reasons.
This is not how it works and you know it.
I understand that Xenos used too strong a word to describe what you just explained me. Resignation is not dismissal. I hope he comes to see it this way too.
Regarding the blogs: i meant irony and bigotry is what a find in many, many greek blogs. i hope i don’t have to take it here as well. you’re doing a fine job, except maybe for the tipped balance on comment moderation, but i can’t give you a hard time on this, you’ve suffered enough.
Thank you for replying. Reading your comment made me realise that I seem to be calling for all kinds of things. Yes, I know it doesn’t work like this. Just because I don’t like a particular person or his/her remarks, I cannot influence the state of affairs here or anywhere.
But I would like to see some kind of responsibility/ accountability for people in high office in Greece?
I would like to see the Supreme Court Prosecutor (this is a very high office!) to be held responsible for his recent words. I think he should resign but if not….Is there a way to get rid of someone with this attitude/stance?
btw. Thank you for understanding why I have to moderate comments for now. It is not something I wanted but times change, right?
More Greek mythology about the rest of the world. Judges are under the direction of the Cheif Justice, and if they utter obviously racist remarks they will be asked to resign, and then ultimately dismissed. In the UK legal system, there is no public prosecutor: this task is undertaken by the Crown Prosecution Service. They do not make public statements, therefore they do not have the possibility to make racist remarks in their professional capacities.
when one asks for the dismissal of a racist prosecutor it is because the latter violates the every law he is supposed to upheld and ever state of law including Greece has such a procedure
when one asks a prosecutor to sanction a mayor you again ask him to uphold the law of the land which is his job
no inconsistency there
for the umpteenth time here is the “athiganos” police circular
NOTIFICATION
FROM: HELLENIC POLICE HEADQUARTERS (A.E.A.)/ADMINISTRATIVE SECTOR (K.D.)/ ORGANISATION AND LEGISLATION DIVISION/ 2nd DEPARTMENT OF STRATEGIC PLANNING
TO: ALL HELLENIC POLICE AGENCIES
CC: MINISTRY OF PUBLIC ORDER
NO.: 7100/26/5
4-8-2004
SUBJECT: Identification of members of the vulnerable group of Roma
REL.: Our order 7100/ 16/1 of 8-7-2004 to all Sectors’ Directorates/A.E.A.
1. Following the afore-mentioned relevant order, concerning the Third Report issued by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) on the situation in Greece, emphasis is laid on the recommendation of the Commission about the continuation and strengthening of efforts to abolish direct and indirect discrimination against Greek Roma and sensitize the authorities, especially in the area of the statements that include derogatory or racist terms.
2. On the basis of the afore-mentioned recommendation and in view of the obligation of the Hellenic Police – which is a part of the public administration – as defined from the current legislation in force [Legal Decree (N.D.) 494/1970 “Ratification of the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination” Government Gazette Issue (F.E.K.) 77/A’], we request that, when there is a need to identify a member of the vulnerable group of Roma, in correspondence, written and oral statements of the Agencies and your staff, you make use exclusively of the international terms rom (roma) or of the term gypsy [tsiganos in Greek]. The use of derogatory terms, like “athigganos” etc. is not allowed.
CHIEF OF STAFF
NIKOLAOS TASIOPOULOS
POLICE LIEUTENANT GENERAL
Responsible for the copying of the document
in Athens, the same day
2nd Department of Strategic Planning
of the Organisation and Legislation Division/A.E.A.
Georgios PALLIOURAS
Lieutenant Colonel
Thanks Panayote,
I think that makes it very clear indeed !
Xenos, you have obviously no legal training, although you keep talking about matters you are inexperienced in. What is more frustrating, you lack common sense: it may come to you as a surprise but, no, judges are not “directed” by anyone. Not in Greece, not in the UK, not anywhere. Study more, talk less, either about judges being dismissed or muslim cemetaries not being built because of the evil Orthodox Church.
Παναγιώτη Δημητρά, you’re confusing DD and the rest of the non greek speaking readers. Let me explain one or two things, not to you, but to them:
In Greek there are three words concerning Roma. Τσιγγάνος, Γύφτος, Αθίγγανος. The aforementioned cicrcular, which of course doesn’t bind me or you or the Prosecutor of the Άρειος Πάγος, accepts only the first one. That’s not bad, but the claim that the term Αθίγγανος is derogatory is just plain wrong.
Γύφτος is the most common word. It’s derived from Egyptian and it’s the word one will find in songs, proverbs and poems. Also in some insults and that is why it’s better to avoid it. Personally, i don’t think it’s worse to be a Γύφτος than to be o Μπαλαμός (the word Roma use to describe non-Roma, sometimes in a demeaning light). Both words should be acceptable.
Τσιγγάνος is less common than Γύφτος, but it’s still widely used. It has no negative connotations and it’s a fit description of the Roma.
Αθίγγανος is the same word as Τσιγγάνος! Only the former is a formal, archaic one, found only written and in official documents. Γύφτος may well be used for cursing, but Αθίγγανος? How come Τσιγγάνος is ok, but Αθίγγανος, the very same word, isn’t?
To put it this way: Γύφτος is nigger, Τσιγγάνος is black and Αθίγγανος is afro.
The person who wrote that document and me have a different understanding of our mother tongue, that’s not necessarily bad. All i want to say is that, no, things are not “very clear”, DD. They never are.
Sorry, Athanaios, but in civilised countries judges are accountable. That does not mean that they are directed, it means that they are accountable in some way. You make the mistake of thinking that everywhere is the same chaos as Greece. I would advise you to travel and study abroad, so that you might have some better understanding of how the world works.
Xenos, i appreciate the fact that you came to realize that your wording wasn’t that accurate. Your wise advise has already been taken, and to the extent you just might not imagine.
To return to the main point: Sanidas is not my favourite, but before i condamn and execute i have the habit of actually testing the evidence. So, where is his actual speech, in greek, put in context? Why should i take for granted a third party account?
Athanasie
You say:
To put it this way: Γύφτος is nigger, Τσιγγάνος is black and Αθίγγανος is afro.
You are wrong.
Γύφτος is nigger, Αθίγγανος is negro, Τσιγγάνος is black and Rom(a) is African American.
This the official state policy as reflected in that circular. Also it reflects the feelings of the people concerned. Plus that of the NGOs. For once that all three sides agree on something, let me claim strongly that those who disagree may be supporting -even unwillingly- anti-tsiganism.
Panayote
Diva,
This may be off topic, but maybe if somebody important in Greece is listening, I’d like to ask the following:
Can you please have the garbage men pick up the trash and (also while you are at it), please ask the DEH to quit cutting the power without a decent warning schedule, or at least one they actually adhere to.
On a positive note, after many years of living in Greece, I have decided to accept the Greek point of view that the Greeks are indeed superior to others (i.e., USA, UK etc). Power be to Greece and Greeks by the Grace of God Hallelujah!!
NOW, since Greeks are superior, I demand that they act in a superior way. I would ask that they perform some basic tasks that other less “superior” countries do.
For Example: Please clean the streets, keep the power on, enforce traffic laws, create a forest registry, teach basic manners in public school, eliminate public smoking areas, and at a minimum please keep the basic infrastructure running efficiently.
By the way, I’ve noticed that other less superior countries seem to do these things without scratching their heads in wonder.
Zhto Ellas!
Ah George! You don’t understand human nature! As with individual people, those who shout the loudest about how clever/wise/educated/cultured [delete as appropriate] they are, know perfectly well that they are not. Frequently, individuals who do this over a sustained period of time manage to convince themselves (and usually nobody else) that they actually are how they describe themselves…
Panayote, we have a different understanding of our mother tongue indeed. I doubt it that many Greeks share your opinion on this purely semantic matter. But be it as it may, i’ll take your opinion into consideration.
“I doubt it that many Greeks share your opinion on this purely semantic matter. ”
They wont share my opinion either on the fact that most Greeks are tolerant of intolerance rather than tolerant; they wont agree either with most human rights violations we report (see yesterday’s State Department report for a recent overview) yet those who matter (INGOs, IGOs, ECHR, etc.) seem to agree and report or issue judgments accordingly.
and you have not addressed the most serious point
on this semantic (and much more) matter it so happens that the state, the Roma and we are in agreement - is that not so irrelevant?
One of the things that most strikes non-Greeks living in Greece is how frequently Greeks actually choose to disagree, for no real reason at all. The obvious corollary is that there can never be a final settlement of an issue, it is always able to be re-opened for further argument, etc. The question we non-Greeks always ask, is “Why? What is the benefit of this approach?”
For my part, I can see only problems and disadvantages, and these continue whether they be the name of a country North of Greece, the disputed history of Asia Minor, the rights and wrongs of social insurance reform and “who stole the money?”, the power cuts, the rubbish not collected…
Some degree of consensus and compromise settled positions are part of all modern societies: there has never been a case in any country where 100% of a population agrees on everything. Why is this not understood in Greece?
Panayote, the relevant point of this topic was what Sanidas actually said, in greek and put in context, and this was not addressed. Anyway, personally i don’t have a problem to call these fellow citizens Roma, Τσιγγάνοι or whatever makes them feel better or enhances their status. But this more out of courtesy, since, as i mentioned before, there’s nothing bad in being a Γύφτος or a Μπαλαμός. Some people use the word Jew or the word Bulgarian as a curse. This is no reason in my humble opinion not to use these words and to substitute them with more innocent or p.c. ones. The same applies to Roma.
And by the way, in no way is the Prosecutor of the Άρειος Πάγος bound by a police circular.
XENOS SAID: “One of the things that most strikes non-Greeks living in Greece is how frequently Greeks actually choose to disagree”
Actually, one area that Greeks never disagree on is “Greek foreign policy”. I find it funny how you can’t find one Greek who says:
- “I agree with Turkey’s point of view on Cyprus”.
- “I agree with the country of MACEDONIA’s view on allowing them to name their country with whatever name they choose”.
- “I agree that KOSOVO should be independent”.
By contrast, truly, you couldn’t find two Americans to agree on foreign policy, whether it’s bombing Iran, or Iraq, or loving Bush or hating bush, we’ve got all points of view.
But, in Greece, it’s all the same point of view!! Got to love it!
George: on issues of nationalistic sentiment, there is rarely any dissent. Of course, this covers most of foreign policy. I meant only what is really going on within the society, i.e. within the actual borders of Greece.
It is strange that there is this marked contrast: absolute chaos and complete disagreement on how to run the country, and only one opinion shared by all Greeks on how the rest of the world should be run!
Thank you Xenos, I appreciate you validating my point of view.
What’s more funny is that I actually met a Greek the other day who says George Bush is the best President America ever had, and he told me that Bush was strong against the terrorists, and that he should be re-elected. I didnt’ have the heart to tell him that the USA is unlike many countries and our Presidents can’t become CASTRO.
I wanted to buy this guy a coffee just to hear how he formulated that point of view, but as it was a chance meeting at a gas station, it never came to be.
I guess there truly are some people out there (even in Greece) who like Mr. Bush.
LoL
Any prosecutor is bound by his obligation not to engage in racial profiling.
If you demean the content of the circular because it was written by police and ignore that it is endorsed by NGOs -which actually triggered it- and is also presented by the official Greek state in the UN as a model of its anti-racist policy then actually you do not seem to be willing to respect the Roma; actually you do so when you present the gyftos term as non-insulting.
So from now on I can call you Giaour (as Ottomans called the Greeks).
If you’re English call me Greek, if you’re Turk call me Yunan, if you’re Ottoman call me giavur. Whatever. I’m not the one trying to impose on others what to say. One thing’s for sure: you’ve never sworn a person calling him Αθίγγανε!
Enough said on this, me thinks.
“you’ve never sworn a person calling him Αθίγγανε!”
you have and denying this makes you at least crypto-racist
indeed enough said on this
Not only enough said, but enough taken as well.
Devious Diva, It was nice discussing with you. Have a wonderful realtime- and bloglife. Perhaps i’ll be reading, but most certainly i won’t be commenting in the future on this blog.
Athan,
I think you may be over reacting by saying you won’t post. I would think your opinion should be as valid as others.
However, maybe you are blind sighted because you live in Greece where everyone (for the most part) think the same way.
Now, in Australia, they call Greeks “Wog”. I’ve heard this is a perjorative term. But, if the Australians said it wasn’t, and you still thought it was, then what would you say.
Honestly, what would you say if someone called you a “wog”. Would that be offensive even if the majority of people said it wasn’t?
The internationally accepted rule about racial or ethnic terminology, regardless of language, is that the term of identification must be decided by that ethnic group. So, if they decide that a word is pejorative, then it is pejorative. It does not matter what others’ opinions are.
In this case, the opinion of the Roma that the term ‘athinganoi’ is offensive is the only opinion that matters. The arrogance of the Greek population that it should be they who decide is unacceptable. Personally, I believe that Athanasios speaks in sincere ignorance: this does not mean that he should refrain from speaking here, but that he needs to come to terms with the real world outside of Greece.
It is a very interesting discussion on what is offensive and what is not and I don’t think people should just back out because we disagree with each other. There are some valuable lessons to be learned here.
I agree with Xenos that the only opinion that REALLY matters is what the affected group say is offensive. We had the same discussions in England (a very long time ago) with the word “coloured” to describe people of colour. It is considered offensive to us and is unacceptable to the majority of the population now even though some people insist that it’s not. The same has happened with many other words in Britain, America and Australia. I am sure this discussion has occurred in other European countries too but I am not knowledgeable enough of the languages to comment.
The fact that someone doesn’t know or is unaware of the discussions about offensive language is not the problem. We are always learning aren’t we ? The thing we find offensive is when people refuse to listen to what we are saying. Being willing to listen and learn from the discussion is the first step to better understanding of each other.
IN Greece we often hear people speaking about “coloured” (έγχρωμοι) and no one seems to tell those journalists who uttered it that they are insulting those they describe.
But then in Greece “monkey” insults to “coloured” players are tolerated and go unpunished…
Panayote, I’ve been trying to say the same thing about such insults towards “coloured” people by Greeks and most won’t hear of it. They keep saying I’m crazy. Being a Greek myself I think I know what I am talking about on this subject matter but its like talking to a brick wall when talking to them about their racist statements. They keep throwing out ‘we never enslaved black people so we are not racists’ and things like that. They don’t realize that one doesn’t have to have owned black slaves to hold racist views and ideology.
As far as the term “athinganoi” goes, I believe what Athan is trying to say is “athinganoi/also written atsinganoi” was the original Greek word first used back in the 9th century by Byzantine Greeks towards the gypsies in the region. Its meaning literally is ‘untouchables’ because none Roma believed them to have ‘magical powers’ making them somehow ‘powerful’. Terms like tzigane, zincali, cigány, etc., are derived from the Greek ατσίγγανο/αθίγγανοι. Athinganoi was a pseudonym to refer to fortune tellers. It didn’t always have negative sentement attached to it. In 1054 Emperor Constantine IX asked a group of Athinganoi to help rid him of the wild animals which were killing his livestock. They are later described as sorcerers and evildoers and accused of trying to poison the Emperor’s favorite dog.
We live in the 21st century where people have the right to call themselves as they -and not others- wish.
Names of the 11th century - used by others again!- have a different meaning today.
Police after having studied what is said above issued the order in that direction. Do you think that they are wrong too?
Anyway in the modern human rights community anyone who does not respect one’s self-identification is violating his/her human right. Roma are using in various countries what they choose as names. In Greece they use Rom(a) or Tsiganoi and this is why the state programs for them too alternate between the two words and do not use others.