From Aftenposten
Norway has stopped returning asylum seekers to Greece, following reports that they’ve have been abused and deported to their countries of origin without due process. Some of Norway’s biggest law firms, meanwhile, are offering to help refugees whose appeals have been rejected by Norwegian officials.
And this is the reason why
Norwegian officials are now concerned, however, over reports from a Greek attorneys’ association that suggest systematic violations of international refugee- and human rights. Asylum seekers detained by police in Greece have complained of being beaten, abused with electric rods and threatened.
And this is why it is so shocking that this is happening
Norway has earlier stopped return of refugees to Iraq, Somalia, Lebanon and Ethiopia, but Greece is the first European country that’s caused concern. Sjeggestad said he couldn’t say how long the ban on returns would last
I would also point out that Greece has the lowest asylum recognition in Europe. Read this post entitled Avoid Greece from two years ago.
Technorati: 
Martin states:
That is why asylum-seekers should not come to Greece
One of the first logical, if not sane things Martin has uttered in my entire time reading this site. Congrats old bean! Pip, pip, cheerio!
If anyone wants a true picture of Scandinavia in general and Norway in particular, I suggest this site…
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/
It has an abundance of information of why things are the way they are in Scandinavia, Norway, and Sweden. The site closed down over 2 years ago, though the writer can also be found here with current writings…
http://chromatism.net/fjordman/fjordmanfiles.htm
I am not trolling other sites on here and do not want to offend the site owner. I feel it is important to offer an alternate view. A view as seen by the common Norwegian on the ground and not by elites in their ivory tower. Wouldn’t you agree, Martin?
COMMENT EDITED BY DEVIOUS DIVA. ARGUE THE ISSUES AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE BUT PLEASE DO NOT INSULT PEOPLE.
Martin states:
he second logical conclusion is that any country that cannot guarantee the rule of law, and also couldn’t give a **** about it, should be expelled from the Council of Europe and the European Union.
Threatening to deprive the teat of European Unionism is really no threat at all. Who really wants to be a member of a totalitarian state, where the people’s will is ignored, anyhow? Actually, not only ignored, but despised. You have to do a little better, Martin.
If Greece was expelled by the EU I will jump and down with absolute joy! Maybe it is better being a friend and ally of Russia that some bogus supranational entity that hardly any Greek has any emotional connection too. Martin, maybe we have found some common ground. We both support the expulsion of Greece from the EU. And then the expulsion of all NGOs gnats from Greece.
“I have also been informed by reliable Greek sources of older attempts to interfere in the politics of Turkey.”
What a silly statement? Which country does not try to interfere in the politics of their enemy. Unfortunately, Greece does not seem to be doing this much anymore.
Martin reveals his values as well:
The real values of at least two nationalist hecklers here are fully exposed.
Any legitimate opposition to Martin’s grandiose, One World Government is deemed as “heckling”. No Martin. It is not heckling. It is normality. A place you have long ago departed for the confines of ultra leftist lunacy.
Martin,
I’ve been reading your comments for a while now, and I wonder if you’re not suffering from some kind of white man’s burden syndrome.
Why else would you take up residence in such an uncivilized backwater?
Surely, to teach the natives the ways of modern man whilst looking down upon them, no?
Risking to be insulted again, i’d like to draw some attention to this: petitioning for asylum is a fine lawyer trick to postpone the deportation of illegal immigrants. And as you surely know, in Greece to postpone roughly equals to cancel. This contributes also to the law ratio, but i don’t think anyone is mistreated. Unless someone thinks Albanians should be considered refugees, that is.
COMMENT EDITED BY DEVIOUS DIVA. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED TWICE. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM INSULTING PEOPLE.
The nationalities of those who do apply [and are 99% refused] are published. They include countries such as Iraq and Iran, Somalia and Sudan — all countries with high probablity that people are fleeing persecution. Don’t think that the rest of ther world is like Greek people — i.e. always faking it.
Very touching. Quite clever little slight of “Greek people always faking it”. Almost went by unnoticed.
Now, would you kindly give us a synopsis of these other places that have opened their arms for said asylum seekers, particularly paying attention to any changes in civil unrest and rise in criminality. That’s a good chap.
Martin: if you do not want to be on the receiving end of personal attacks, then you should refrain from making them.
I’m Greek, and I resent the sweeping generalizations you make about Greece and its people.
Whatever your reasons for being in Greece, you certainly do not have the right to criticize in such a condescending fashion (and I don’t care how much EU money you’ve got to back you up).
ΜΒΕ, no, Albanians in custody waiting deportation do apply for asylum, if they get the proper legal advice of course. Asylum is properly denied to these people, but who cares, they are free again and the lawyers get paid. I bet you didn’t know that one, now did you? I didn’t say they form the majority of the applicants, i just say some of the applications are in fact what you may call abusive.
People.
People…
There are some very basic rules on this blog and blogging in general. Make your point but DO NOT INSULT EACH OTHER. How hard is that to understand ?
Cyngin Poppycock-Balderdash, you are teetering on the edge of being banned for being rude and insulting to others here.
My contribution to the discussion here.
Asylum seekers are generally running away from very difficult situations like war and starvation, and are seeking ASYLUM. Greece rarely recognizes them. Whether they are Albanian or Turkish or Iraqi or African, surely there should be measures in place to at least hear their case?
Criminals will get through regardless of the system? It is unfair and wrong and dangerous to categorise asylum seekers as criminal.
If Greece pulls out of the EU, then it will become chum for Turkey.
Without the protection of the USA, sure Greece can climb into bed with another suitor such as Russia (as suggested by the nationalists before).
However, you get what you pay for. Check with some of the former eastern bloc countries to get their take on being Russia’s “jail buddy”.
Greece, unfortunately, does not have the power or intestinal fortitude to be independent without protection.
Correct me if I am wrong but the Eastern Bloc was led by the Soviet Union, not Russia?
“Do we care if a few Albanians apply for asylum along with 20,000 others? NO.”
Surely you’re not interested to learn what you don’t know. The contrary would be surprising. My point was that not all petitions are “real” and well grounded. Some are solely lawyer tricks. I can’t give you numbers and my guess is you can’t either. My claim is not that Greece has a good record with asylum seekers, but let us not exaggerate. (Personally i happen to know two people who were granted asylum, an Iraki Kurd, who has now Greek citizenship, and an Iranian. And i don’t know that many non eu citizens!).
Here’s an example: Greek courts refuse to deportate condemned criminals, if their country of origin is dangerous for them, either because of political instability (eg Palestine) or because of other reasons (eg Iranian drug dealers). None seems to take that into consideration, good news should be heard too.
Another point: due to geography i expect Greece to receive relatively more petitions than, say, Belgium or Norway. Petitions to these countries have been “filtered” through Greece or Italy or Spain etc. It’s not wildly unpredictable that asylum seekers in those countries can substantiate better their petitions and thus contribute to a better and more pr-friendly ratio.
From a previous post:
Does anyone have any asylum rate figures since this one from 2006 ?
I think that people seeking escape from their own countries are fairly well aware of the low asylum recognition rates in Greece. Mostly, they are trying to reach other European countries where they stand more chance of at least being heard.
Personally, I am relieved that another European country is not sending asylum seekers back here where they stand almost no chance of being accepted. People do not generally leave their own countries for no good reason. If I was in the same position I would at least hope for fair treatment and a fair hearing. I don’t believe I would get that here in Greece (as you see from the figures).
Soviet Union is just code for Russia. Everyone knows that. Who ran the Soviet Union? I would think that would be “Russia”….
If you wish to play semantics, then I say potato and you say PATATA
George, no it was not. The early Soviet leadership was stacked with non-Russians and even later the most important positions were taken up by non-Russians. It was only later after the end of Stalin did Russians find their way into the Soviet leadership in large numbers. And by then the mass starvations and deportations had ceased.
Cyngin Poppycock-Balderdash, you are teetering on the edge of being banned for being rude and insulting to others here.
Diva, if your goal is to have an echo chamber here, then please say so. As to me “being rude and insulting”, funny you should mention that as my alter ego is simply a mirror image of our esteemed Martin. I am simply behaving as he does and I find it insulting that you pick me out and ignor him.
He makes gross generalizations such as “Greeks always faking it”, which in and of itself is insulting and bigoted. As I said, would anyone tolerate a statement such as “blacks always faking it”? Certainly not. He also referred to me as “Idiot with the stupid name”. Obviously, he has no clue when he makes personal attacks, does he?
Cyngin Poppycock-Balderdash, part of my comment was to people in general to be civil.
My remark to you was because you directly insulted a particular person (I edited your comment as you may have noticed).
The comment right above by the esteemed Martin is nothing short of glaring condescension and pompousness. Clearly, according to Martin, we the peasant morons, are simply too stupid to grasp his utterly and abjectly ignorant, though highly nuanced point. You see, he is attempting to enlighten us though it is we who are unenlightenable. Another glimpse into Martin, though this one is the tried and true blame the victim approach.
Our learned scholar deems the statements of “peasant culture”, “Greeks always faking it” and all the other pseudo scientific bilge put forth here as “cultural”, not racist or bigoted. I see. Let’s see how this most recent bit of trash will fly, shall we?
“Israelis, they sure are penny pinching and love money. Not to mention they have big noses”.
“Nigerians, they are notorious for internet banking crimes”
“Africans (continent, yes I know), are sure prone to violence”
Gee, Martin. They sure sound like stereotypes to me, you dolt. Are you saying we are to use stereotypes as a form or argumentation which absolves us from actual documented facts? What else are you going to “teach” us, Martin?
BTW Diva, our esteemed Martin, he who never makes personal attacks, seems to be calling “someone”, mentally challenged. To me, that is an insult and personal attack. Wouldn’t you say?
Dear esteemed Martin, scholar of all scholars. Of course you made those false generalizations. You made them and gave them your stamp of approval as soon as the statement of “Greeks always faking it” came pouring out of your mouth. A generalization is a generalization is a generalization, my dear Martoon. That is the pitfall when one argues with generalizations, as you are want to do. Logic, Martin. We Greeks know a little about that, if you weren’t aware.
Legein, ok so the non-Russians were bad prior to the end of Stalin, but still an iron fist prevailed long after that as well. Please don’t sugar coat Russia.
Look at current Russia (Putin) and ask how many journalists have been killed in Russia (and not investigated) since he has taken over.
But what did the Soviet Union (and Russia) leave behind but chaos, economic destruction, graft and corruption, alcoholism, high rate of poverty, political prisoners, and executions of innocent people.
They wasted their country’s resources on an arms race which they had no hope of winning. In the end the people even pulled down their statues and pissed on their graves.
If this is what Greece needs or wants, then that is just silly. America has been good to Greece and it’s only a border away to Albania to see what Greece could have become without America and the marshall plan.
Brilliant! Mr Alexandridis is an exceptionally dark horse. Do pass on my congratulations to him! Nietzsche would be very proud.
Diva: I agree with Poppycock-Balderdash (great satirical name, by the way) that if you’re going to single out people for making rude or ad hominem arguments, that you MUST call out Martin for that behavior too.
It seems you are more tolerant of those types of insults when they’re wrapped in political points with which you agree.
Well, forgive me for liking some people more than others, Hermes. I did make a general comment to EVERYONE but I singled out Poppycock-Balderdash for making a crude personal attack on a particular person ( I edited his comment but didn’t delete it).
You know, it’s very difficult to draw the line here. Many people have made generalisations (maybe I have myself ?) and I have left them up because overall, I believe the discussion must be had. Sadly, the real discussions rarely happen because of continuous derailment.
Is it preferably that I just delete everyone I disagree with? I am human and when I agree with someone overall I can (and do) overlook some of their rough edges. I have called out Martin before and we have had a discussion about my objections to his argument. However, I am not a robot. I appreciate people who can examine the issues I care about and can stand up to those who wish to derail the discussions.
So now, let’s try and stay on the subject…
Greeks fake it – i.e. are liars and untrustworthy – is regarded as a reasonable characterisation of a culture’s attributes? Is that right, DD?
Can I also suggest some other cultural attributes associated with certain races:
The Irish are thick and violent.
Black people have good rhythm but lack mental discipline.
Pakistanis smell of curry.
Arabs are lascivious.
Jews are tight-fisted money-grubbers.
Italians are cowards.
Italy is a corrupt country run by the mafia.
The French never wash.
Roma are lazy and dirty.
Germans are sadists.
The Japanese are sadomasochists.
The English are degenerate, self-righteous hypocrites.
Albanians are thieving killers.
The Chinese are cunning and treacherous.
Of course, if I thought any of the above were reasonable characterisations of a race and its culture, I’d be accused of being a fascist, a racist or having mental problems.
Now because M thinks Greeks, all Greeks, for it is part of our culture, are liars and untrustworthy, are racist, nationalist peasants – personally, I come from peasant stock and am extremely proud of it too, the peasantry is the best class to belong to, in my opinion – I’m not saying he’s got mental problems – that’s between him and his psychotherapist – I just express my regret that he finds Greece such a confusing place, wonder why anyone would want to spend ten years of their life in a country and among a people they clearly detest, and express my sincere hope that one day soon he relocates to a country he feels more comfortable in, such as Norway.
Though I have to say that the Norwegians I’ve come across have always been bigots of the first order – don’t mention the Swedes to them – so perhaps Norway’s not the place for M either.
Norwegians are bigoted, Nazi sympathisers.
I forgot to add that one to my list
Ooops. Lest anyone think that I was agreeing with the whole of Martin’s comment, I wasn’t. I just happen to know Mr Alexandridis, and am very pleased for him. It’s not every lawyer who gets a judgment named after him.
Perhaps you didn’t read the comment directly above you, john z?
John Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
WAKE UP & SMELL THE COFFEE!
MBE said:
The Greek state and its fakery
You say:
Greeks fake it – i.e. are liars and untrustworthy –
Find the differences & discuss.
Now, now dear esteemed, Martin. No need to retract your testicles along with your bigoted remark simply because you have been cornered by us lowly peasant morons. When you said “Greeks always fake it”, you in no way attempted to clarify that it was the Greek state you were speaking of. Which begs the question, how many “Greek states” were you speaking of when you said “Greeks” with and “s” always fake it? You meant Greeks, as in all Greeks. You do a piss poor job in keeping your contempt in check for Greeks on this board, Martin. It certainly does not take a genius to see right through your disingenuous self. Even us moron peasants see it. BTW, I am of peasant stock as well. A peasant that has managed to shellac the “great scholar of generalizations”.
Interesting reading:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7258374.stm
In case we have lost the measure here!!!
How the topic of this chat is interpreted and in what frame (domestic or international) one looks at it is up to the individuals to decide and contribute! Again what one considers relevant or irrelevant speaks of his objectivity too! Everyone adds an opinion and some input and it is up to the individuals to form the picture and the wider context! There is no prescription and no bounds that we have to conform and contrary to some opinions we are not sheep either!
I think also that as far as I am concern no personal attack was involved and some of those who claim so in many cases are doing so retrospectively as they routinely attempted the same without always the expected outcome!
At least this is my opinion!
Still my previous contribution I believe very valuable and highly relevant to establish a sense of measure! But it is up to all of you to see or not see my point!
Have all a nice weekend!
Drowsy, this is what MBE says regarding Greeks and fakery – and I’ve only read this thread, I hate to think what he’s said elsewhere on this blog:
‘It is the usual Greek response of refusing to accept reality and always blaming others’
‘As far as my experience of living in Greece is concerned, everything is faked.’
‘Don’t think that the rest of the world is like Greek people — i.e. always faking it.’
‘Greece operates on the principle of falsification’, which M does not say is a state but ‘a cultural attribute’, i.e. an attribute or principle common to all Greeks.
‘Greeks refuse to discuss what is actually the topic.’
‘Nobody in Greece accepts any responsibility for anything.’
I honesty believe these attacks on Greek people and Greek culture say more about MBE’s state of mind than they do about Greece and Greeks. No one compos mentis could possibly believe such things. In fact, the ascription of common characteristics to an ENTIRE race and culture is not only racist; it’s the worst kind of racism. It is Hitleresque. Indeed, reading MBE’s wild and obsessive comments is a bit like reading Mein Kampf – Jews/Greeks are this, Jews/Greeks are that.
Who talks like this nowadays about an entire group of people and culture, without nuance or exception? Nutcases and fascists, that’s who.
People are entitled to have a pop at Greece for its human rights record or immigration issues; but there is a big difference between how MBE, as opposed to DD and Panayiotis Dimitras, address these matters.
I disagree with a lot of what DD and PD say but I have never felt the urge to call either of them idiots, charlatans, mentally unbalanced, hysterical, moronic, racist or stupid. They are sincere. M seems to have another agenda altogether and other issues going on in his life; which is a shame for him.
Actually, because MBE’s rants are so extreme, I’m beginning to think he’s having us all on, that he doesn’t live in Greece – no one could possibly get by in the country holding the views he holds and expressing them in the way he does – and that he is a fake.
Are you sure, DD, that this man is who he says he is? Are we really supposed to take him seriously?
But Martin if you have Greek friends who agree with you, then none of the things you say, such as:
‘It is the usual Greek response of refusing to accept reality and always blaming others’
‘As far as my experience of living in Greece is concerned, everything is faked.’
‘Don’t think that the rest of the world is like Greek people — i.e. always faking it.’
‘Greece operates on the principle of falsification’, which M does not say is a state but ‘a cultural attribute’, i.e. an attribute or principle common to all Greeks.
‘Greeks refuse to discuss what is actually the topic.’
‘Nobody in Greece accepts any responsibility for anything
can possibly be true since by your own admission there are Greeks who take responsibility, accept reality, don’t blame others or fake things, don’t operate on the principle of falsification, who will discuss the topic, and so on.
And after you write your book on falsification as a Greek cultural attribute, do you plan to write something on venality as a Jewish cultural attribute or how black people have natural rhythm?
No one can say the insane and obnoxious things you say and then expect not to find themselves exposed to personal ridicule. Do you really think I’m going to get into an argument with you over whether Greeks are always faking it, i.e. are liars and untrustworthy, or debate with you your deranged thesis that Greek culture is based on the principle of falsification? You don’t think I’m going to sink to your level, do you, to the level of a conceited little racist and bigot?
I suggest then you just fucking leave, Martin. Who the fuck wants you and it is clear you would do yourself a great service by buggering off. When is the going away party?
Martin
Now, I’m beginning to feel sorry for you. You need help – and badly. You’re clearly not a well man. Do you have an alcohol problem?
Martin
Asking if you have an alcohol problem is not a personal attack. It is a genuine expression of concern for your physical and mental well-being. I’m aware that the Welsh are heavy drinkers and are a hyper-emotional race. Of course, I’m sure there are exceptions to this rule, but all the academic research and testimonies of my educated Welsh friends indicates that the centuries-old culture of coal mining and sheep shagging has taken its toll on the psychopathology of the Welsh population. And anyone who denies my view that the Welsh are boorish degenerates is just a raving Welsh nationalist. In fact, I’ve collated so much evidence concerning the boorish degeneracy of Welsh culture that I’m going to write a book on the subject, with special emphasis on how the Welsh are just a bunch of dirty racist liars who are always blaming foreigners, particularly the English, for their faults. In fact, the Welsh have such deep-seated hatred of the English that in incidents normally associated with the Balkan peasant wars English immigrants are often burned out of their homes by Welsh Nazis.
Martin, please don’t let these nationalists get you down. Just ignore them like any barking dog.
But, one question I have for these nationalists is this. If Greece is so great and important, how come you haven’t convinced America to take your side on any important foreign policy issue in the last 30 or so years. Whether it’s about Cyprus, or allowing the country of “Macedonia” to keep it’s legitimate name, Greece always seems to get the short end of the stick. In the business world, we call this getting passed over for promotion.
Maybe you Greeks should work on your “job” performance? And then you can cooperate to graduate as we say…
ALSO: And now with Kosovo becoming independent, you have to AGAIN wonder why couldn’t GREECE (with all it’s greatness) convince the USA not to allow this?
Again, passed over for promotion!
Greece is not a ‘great power’ by any standards, we never claimed this. You are diverting the issue at hand my dear friend George. For the record, the US tends to take a stance to maintain the status quo.
As for MBE, he has clearly gone partially insane, and the students at Panteion are starting to take notice. I can point Martin in the direction of several good psychologists if he needs to overcome his drinking habit. And I dont mean this in a pejorative way, I know very well that English people have extreme problems with alcoholism to the point where it is normal for your average young English male to drink 20 units of alcohol a night and think nothing of it.
Norway is a peacfull country where everyone rights are save and respected by the govrnment.We appericatte Norway Government Decision not to sent Migrants back to Greece because Greece treate them very badly.We appericatte Norway decission and hope that Other EU counteris will follow Norway,becaus Migority of these Migrants are from the Country like Afghanistan where are about 30 years war and it is still continious .
And we Greeks in Greece appreciate it to.