Brutality against Immigrants Claim
Published by deviousdiva February 11th, 2008 in Immigration.From Inquirer Net (via Agence France-Presse)
Human rights group Amnesty International on Friday called on Greece to investigate the case of 13 Afghan immigrants, including eight minors, who accuse members of the Greek coastguard of mistreating and robbing them.
In statements to Amnesty in January, the migrants said they were intercepted by the crews of two vessels flying the Greek flag off the island of Lesvos.
The uniformed men, some of whom were wearing hoods, allegedly beat several of the migrants — including two boys aged 9 and 13.
They also allegedly tore through the migrants’ baggage with knives, stripped some of them down to their underwear and took their cellphones and money.
They subsequently put them in inflatable dinghies, punctured them, and told them to return to Turkey, according to the testimony given by the migrants, who are in Turkish detention at the coastal town of Ayvalik, Amnesty said.
“Such an act could endanger the migrants’ lives and is a clear violation of Greece’s responsibilities under its international and European obligations,” Amnesty said.
Amnesty noted that the migrants’ story is consistent with other reports of rights violations it has received in recent months.
Human rights groups regularly castigate Greek authorities for their treatment of illegal immigrants and for failing to provide asylum-seekers with information on their rights to sanctuary.
In October, the German-based PRO ASYL group released a report detailing cases where coastguards beat migrants to extract information on smuggling operations.
The group also said the Greek coastguard routinely tries to block migrants’ boats and force them out of Greek territorial waters.
Greece said it would investigate these cases, and officials stress that Greek border guards are hard-pressed to deal with the thousands of migrants who try to penetrate the EU’s southeastern border every year.
But Amnesty noted that it has yet to receive information from the Greek merchant marine ministry on the coastguards’ training and chain of command in response to a request filed nearly two months ago.
Internal coastguard probes rarely result in charges being filed.
Technorati: greece, immigration, coastguard, violation
DD it could be true but more likely it could be a fishy story like many the Turks (the main human traders actualy) have fabricated. For instance why on earth the authorities should ‘put them in inflatable dinghies, PUNCTURE them’ !!!! They would had NEVER reached the Turkish Coast and more likely swim towards Greece!!!!!!
I think as we claim we are intelligent people sometimes we should use our mind and a little of lateral thinking instead of catching the bait!!!!!
This case smells another Turkish planted propaganda and nothing else!
By the way has the AI ever bother to investigate the shameful human trading massively practiced by the Turks? Has ever the AI ever bothered to investigate and denounce the shameful ploy of the Official Turkish Establishment of playing with the lifes of immigrants in order to put pressure on Europe in general and Greece in particular?
JC: your partiality is too visible here. There are plenty of independent accounts of how the Greek coastguard and border guard behave — along with the Turkish and Bulgarian border guards. UNHCR in the past has reported similar things, and there have been legal cases against the Greek coastguard for abuse and rape. Nothing ever happens, of course, as this is Greece…
It is a mistake to think that this is a simple matter of Turkey playing political games. Rather, it is three things:
(1) No country in this region in actuality respects the human rights of migrants, although some of the highest courts in all countries do try to promote these.
(2) Turkey is not interested to conform to western demands about controlling transit migration flows, until the dispute with Cyprus and its accession to the EU are sorted out. It is not human trading, as you emotively claim, but simply illegal migration with small-time smugglers involved.
(3) Greece is mostly interested in claiming extra money from the EU to deal with the “flood of illegal migrants” and, to a lesser extent than in the past, to make political capital out of the situation with Turkey.
What almost nobody is interested in, is what happens to the migrants who suffer or even die on their tragic journeys through Turkey and Greece.
yes john, you are right. all this international organisation does is witch hunt fake human rights abuses in greece, because as we all know greece is the centre of the galaxy.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/e.....sia/Turkey
If the Greek authorities “allegedly” did all these terrible things then why has Amnesty issued a statement. Shouldn’t they verify these claims first?
hm, maybe because amnesty is not the judiciary and cannot pronounce judgments ????
John Crysanthakopoulos, I have seen your kind of argument many times here at my blog. AI investigates human rights violations globally not just in Greece. They are very careful about their investigations and do not highlight problems unless there is some substance. For example, in this case, I posted about this issue many times:
here are some examples
November 16th, 2007 http://deviousdiva.com/2007/11/16/promised-land/
September 28th, 2006 http://deviousdiva.com/2006/09/28/drowned/
September 20th, 2005 http://deviousdiva.com/2005/09/20/drowning-at-sea/
but AI have not made any of them public until now.
You think it’s a Turkish conspiracy? I suggest you look again at what is actually happening here in Greece. It is wrong to continually blame other people/countries or to say “at least we’re not as bad as… (insert country of choice here) . The Greek coastguards are under investigation for several acts of brutality and wrongful treatment of immigrants. There are too many outstanding complaints for it to be fabricated by anyone.
In fact the AI abuses claim was followed by a UNHCR release, a Greek Ombudsman release , a Council of Europe CPT damning report, and a Norway interruption of referrals to Greece; all detail human rights violations in Greece.
Here is the first one:
No. 07/08
7 February 2008
UNHCR expresses concern over developments in Patras affecting minors and asylum – seekers
ATHENS - The Office of the UN Refugee Agency in Greece is concerned by the recent police measures aimed at dismantling the make-shift camps in Patras where asylum-seekers and other migrants, mainly from Afghanistan, have been residing for several years. UNHCR urges all concerned to ensure that no violent means would be used to remove people from those camps.
The situation of the migrants and asylum-seekers in the port area of Patras is a long-standing and complicated issue that needs to be addressed in a comprehensive manner taking into account the multiple dimensions of the problem: protection of human rights, the right of asylum, public health and social concerns of the host society, protection and well-being of children, and combating human smuggling. UNHCR is at the disposal of the Greek authorities to assist and contribute to their efforts in addressing these issues.
Some 250 unaccompanied minors are believed to be among those affected by the police measures in Patras. These children ought, according to applicable domestic legislation and the international legal obligations of Greece, to be placed under temporary guardianship following judicial intervention and provided with appropriate accommodation that meets their special needs.
UNHCR also calls on the Greek authorities to ensure that any person who may be in need of international protection has effective access to the asylum procedures. This would necessarily entail that before any measure of removal from the make-shift camp or the port area is initiated, the authorities properly inform the persons concerned about their right to apply for asylum and the procedures they should follow. Those persons who have applied for asylum should have their claims considered fairly and objectively, and granted adequate reception conditions in accordance with applicable national and EU legislation.
END
For further information on these topics, please contact:
Ketty Kehayioylou, Public Information Officer, e-mail: kehayioy@unhcr.org
Website: http://www.unhcr.org (English)
http://www.unhcr.gr (Greek)
Greek Ombudsman (in Greek)
http://www.synigoros.gr/pdfs/_deltio_stp_8_2.pdf
http://www.synigoros.gr/pdfs/_.....ou_8_2.pdf
http://www.synigoros.gr/pdfs/_.....os_8_2.pdf
Council of Europe anti-torture Committee publishes report on Greece
Strasbourg, 08.02.2008 – The Greek government has requested the publication of the report of the Council of Europe’s Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) on an ad hoc visit to Greece in February 2007, together with the authorities’ response.
In the course of the ad hoc visit, the CPT reviewed the treatment of persons detained by law enforcement officials and examined the conditions of detention in police and border guard stations, coast guard posts and in special facilities for illegal migrants in order to evaluate progress made since the CPT’s last visit to Greece, in 2005. The CPT also paid a targeted visit to Korydallos Men’s Prison in order to examine the conditions of detention in the segregation units and to assess developments in relation to the prison’s health-care service.
The CPT’s visit report and the response of the Greek Government are available in English on the CPT’s website: http://www.cpt.coe.int/documen.....08-eng.htm
GREEK HELSINKI MONITOR (GHM)
Address: P.O. Box 60820, GR-15304 Glyka Nera
Telephone: ( 30) 2103472259 Fax: ( 30) 2106018760
e-mail: office@greekhelsinki.gr website: http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr
PRESS RELEASE
10 February 2008
Greece: Norway suspends asylum seekers referrals to Greece because of rights violations. Iraqi asylum seeker alleges ill-treatment and deception.
Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) informs that Norway suspended the referral of asylum seekers to Greece (as first country of entry according to the Dublin II Regulation) on 7 February 2008, “on the basis of the latest information about the possible violations of the rights of asylum seekers in Greece, and on the basis of the need for more information about the conditions of the asylum seekers in this country” Norway’s Immigration Appeal Board announced (see below). This latest information, along with a plea to stop the referrals, was provided on 18 January 2008 by the Norwegian Helsinki Committee and the Norwegian Organisation for Asylum Seekers (NOAS), (see their letter below) following information provided by Greek Helsinki Monitor. Follows also the interview of Iraqi asylum seeker Ahmad Jwad Ali about all he went through while in Greece, including deception and alleged repeated ill-treatment. He has currently found refuge to Norway to avoid his referral to Greece, something that he is avoiding following the recent developments.
The Immigration Appeal Board
Press Release
07.02.2008
On the basis of the latest information about the possible violations of the rights of asylum seekers in Greece, and on the basis of the need for more information about the conditions of the asylum seekers in this country, the Immigration Appeal Board has halted until further notice the transfers to Greece according to the Dublin II-Regulation.
This outcome includes that the Immigration Appeal Board shall not conclude any judgment in the asylum cases whereby the individual shall otherwise be returned to Greece according to the Dublin II-Regulation. This will take place until new information about the situation is accumulated and assessed.
As for the asylum seekers whose claims have been rejected by the Immigration Appeal Board, and who are supposed to return to Greece according to the Dublin II-Regulation, their obligation to leave Norway is until further notice suspended. This includes that until further notice these asylum seekers do not have the obligation to abide by the previous decisions concluded by the Immigration
Appeal Board in returning to Greece. The police have also been given instructions that until further notice these asylum seekers are not to be transported to Greece as mentioned above.
Contact person in the Immigration Appeal Board:
Director Terje Sjeggestad, phone nr: 47 90055384
The Norwegian Immigration Appeals Board
Att: Director Terje Sjeggestad
Postboks 8165 Dep.
0034 Oslo
Copy:
The Ministry of Labour and Social Inclusion
Att: Minister Bjarne Håkon Hanssen
The Directorate of Immigration
Att director Ida Børresen
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Att: Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre
Oslo, 25th of January 2008
Stop the transfer of asylum seekers to Greece by the Dublin II- Regulation
The Norwegian Helsinki Committee and the Norwegian Organisation for Asylum Seekers (NOAS) are calling for a halt in the transfer of asylum seekers to Greece according to the terms in the Dublin II Regulation. In our opinion, these transfers are not unjustifiable as long as Greece does not fulfil its obligations mentioned in the Refugee Convention and as long as the judicial and humanitarian conditions for asylum seekers in Greece remain reproachable. We fear that Norway may indirectly violate the principle of non-refoulement by abiding to the Dublin II Regulation in terms of Greece.
Here follows a brief account of why we mean that it is imperative that Norwegian immigration authorities process applications for asylum (according to art. 3(2) of the Dublin II Regulation) rather than transfer them back to Greece.
Risk of “refoulement”
The UN High Commissioner of Refugees (UNHCR) and a number of Greek human rights organizations express grave concern of the practice of the Greek authorities of returning Iraqi refugees to Turkey. According to the High Commissioner, Turkey frequently deports the refugees back to Iraq, where they risk persecution.
A note from the High Commissioner issued the summer of 2007 urges the member states to “…consider factors (…) that could result in indirect refoulement”. This is based on the fact that Greek immigration authorities have a continued practice of partially interrupting the process of a claim (interrupted claims) in the event the claimant travels outside Greece, in spite of the fact that the state accepts receiving again former asylum seekers. This implies that asylum seekers who are later transferred back to Greece risk not receiving a proper processing of their case.
Greece has the lowest percentage of granted asylum claims in Europe with practically very few admissions each year. In addition, Greece issues a very limited number of residence permits based on humanitarian grounds. According to Greek Helsinki Monitor, only 0.5 % of the rejected asylum claimants were granted residence permits on humanitarian grounds. This implies that Greece rejects many asylum claims that otherwise would have been granted refugee or protection status based on humanitarian grounds in Norway.
Access to legal procedure
It is not only asylum seekers with “interrupted claims” that have problems with providing access to an asylum procedure. Greece is also criticized for not providing this access to persons who are arrested for crossing the borders illegally. The Danish Refugee Help Organisation reports on its website that Greece in 2006 arrested a total number of 8,157 Iraqis as illegal immigrants. Only 1,415 got the chance to apply at all – but none of these were granted asylum.
The German organization Pro Asyl published in October 2007 a report in cooperation with Greek organizations that documents how Greece systematically violates human rights by refusing refugees at the border, by arresting and mistreating many of them, and in addition returning them by force to Turkey wherefrom they risk being deported to their home country where they can be prosecuted. In the report “The truth may be bitter, but it must be told” the following can be read:
“The police arrest all new arrivals, including asylum seekers and particularly vulnerable individuals such as victims of torture and human trafficking, disabled persons, pregnant women, minors and refugees from countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia. They are all issued with automatic deportation orders – without a hearing, without any examination of their entitlement to protection. This practice effectively constitutes a denial of access to the asylum determination procedure”.
Because of this information, the organizations demand, among others, that other Dublin-countries stop the transfer of asylum seekers to Greece in accordance with the principles of the Dublin II Regulation.
The Greek practice in receiving refugees and asylum seekers
Greece has, in general, an underdeveloped asylum system. Even though asylum seekers have several rights according to Greek law, these do not have much relevance in practice – because asylum seekers are not informed about their rights and because the authorities in reality do not respect or practice these rights. As a consequence of the practice of not granting the asylum seekers an interpreter, they can be fooled into withdrawing their applications or lose the right to make a complaint.
The social conditions for asylum seekers whose claims are being studied are also unacceptable. In spite the fact that Greece has several thousands asylum seekers, the camps are only dimensioned for 740 people. The majority of the asylum seekers are not offered any accommodation, health care or any other social services. The situation is especially intolerable for families with children.
The situation doesn’t get better when many asylum seekers are held in arrest for a long time, and some of them are victims of violence from Greek police officers. Video footage that shows how the Greek police mistreat asylum seekers and immigrants have been broadcasted on different TV channels, among them Greek and Swedish channels, and on the website YouTube .
Greek Helsinki Monitor informs in an e-mail to the Helsinki Committee and NOAS on the 18th of January 2008 about a case where an Iranian asylum seeker became a victim of violence from the Greek police:
“An eighteen-year-old Iranian applied for asylum and was called for an interview. A policeman didn’t like his attitude and reprimanded him. Later, when all the other asylum seekers had left, the policeman called the Iranian in the interview zone. There he was beaten by three policemen and he was thrown out without papers…”
The Norwegian practice of transferring asylum seekers to Greece
The Norwegian Helsinki Committee and NOAS are aware of a decision taken by the Immigration Appeal Board in Norway (IAB) in a case that was handled in accordance with the Dublin II Regulation, dated the 17th of December 2007. The case concerns an asylum seeker from Azerbaijan, who according to the Dublin II Regulation could be returned to Greece. IAB based its final outcome in the case on the supposition that Greece treats asylum applications “in a trustworthy manner”. IAB is aware of the critique addressed to the Greek asylum practices. However in its decision, it refers to the Norwegian Embassy in Athens that has reported that measures have been taken to improve the situation, and it concludes: “according to the understanding of IAB, there are no reasons to believe that the Greek authorities are not treating the claims of the asylum seekers that have returned to Greece according to the principles of the Dublin II Regulation on the basis of illegal entry across the border in an untrustworthy manner”.
We would like to express our criticism of the choice taken by the Immigration Appeal Board not to recognize the present conditions in Greece, as they are described by the UNHCR and other human rights organizations, but instead to refer to the Greek authorities as having “initiated the improvement of the situation for the asylum seekers”.
Conclusion
The Dublin II Regulation presupposes a mutual obligation to respect the Refugee Convention and other relevant human right conventions. We appeal to the Norwegian authorities to stop transferring refugees to a country such as Greece, which obviously is not fulfilling its obligations. Norway has an independent responsibility to ensure that a person with need of protection is not being directly or indirectly sent to a place where his life or safety will be in danger. Furthermore, taking into consideration both legal safety and humanitarian concerns, our view is that Norway must choose to consider all asylum applications in Norway that Greece is otherwise responsible for according to the principles of the Dublin II Regulation.
With kind regards,
(signed)
Bjοrn Engesland
Secretary General of the Norwegian Helsinki Committee
(signed)
Morten Tjessem
Secretary General of Norwegian Organisation for Asylum Seekers
(translated in English by NOAS from the Norwegian original at http://www.nhc.no/php/files/do.....Flyktning- og asylpolitikk/brevHellasAsylsoker2-080125.pdf)
My experiences in Greece
(Interview with NOAS)
I am a young man from Baghdad in Iraq. In Iraq, I have worked with the American forces and as a bodyguard for the Ministry of Culture. It is because of this that I was threatened by armed groups that belong to the Muslim army. Therefore, I was forced to seek refuge from Iraq.
I left Iraq first to Syria and from there to Turkey where I stayed for three months. With the help of some smugglers I went to Greece by sea. We were 45 people in total from different nationalities on a boat. The Turkish police shot in the air to intimidate us. They threw some sort of a lasso rope after us, to catch us or frighten us. At the same time they were causing waves with their boats, until we reached the Greek side of the borders. There, we experienced the same as we did with the Turks. The Greeks were causing waves, and they shot at the boat until we jumped in the sea.
There was an island directly in the vicinity, Chios. We swam to the island where we were caught by the Greek army. After that, the military delivered us to the Greek police. They arrested us in a small room, and they took our fingerprints. I refused to do it because I wanted to travel further in Europe. They threatened me and beat me up brutally. They used an electric stick of which I still have bruises on my nose visible because of the treatment I received there.
Afterwards, they sent us to a prison on the island, Chios. The prison lies on a hill and the length of the building there was around 30 to 40 meters. There were more than 250 persons in the prison from different nationalities. There were two policemen/prison guards, Smadi and George, which had the responsibility over the prison.
After a short while a lawyer on behalf of the Greek police came in and interviewed us. Her name was Natasha [GHM note: Natasha is not a police lawyer, but a NGO lawyer helping asylum seekers in Chios]. She said that our fingerprints would not be registered in the Migration unit but in the register of the border police. She said that this was done just for security reasons and not for the purposes of asylum. Accordingly, these prints would not have any effect in case we wanted to travel further in Europe.
I didn’t declare my real name or my country of origin because I was afraid that I would be sent back. That is why I am now in this country. After a month in prison, I was released, and I travelled further to Athens. Because I didn’t have proper clothing and I looked like a foreigner, I was again caught by the Greek police. They hit me, took all my money that I had and left me in the street by myself. I had no place to go to, didn’t know anyone there and couldn’t speak the language. As a result I had to sleep on the street in two weeks until I found a job with Greek man. I worked as an ironsmith worker every day from 6 in the morning until 1 after midnight for only 20 euro.
The police was looking for immigrants all the time. Therefore, I made a deal with a smuggler in order for him to help me travel to Denmark by plane. As I was about to leave the airport in Athens, I was again caught by the police. They hit me and arrested me for one week. Then, I tried the same another time, and again I was caught and I was arrested for one week. The last time it happened, I was told by a policeman that I should not travel through the airport where the security is very strict. I should instead try to travel through one of two islands [GHM note: he means ports] Komanizia [GHM note: he means Igoumenitsa] or Patra. He said that it was much easier to travel from there. But, as I came there, I couldn’t leave. I tried for the third time through the airport. I made a deal with the smuggler that if he is to succeed that time, I would pay him. I owed him already 200 euro. He gave me a clear message: that if I didn’t send him the money, I wouldn’t be allowed to come back to Greece. He threatened me, but I paid him the whole sum right there and then. I was apprehensive as I know that smugglers use mafia methods in the way they deal with people.
Afterwards, I came to Sweden and applied for asylum there. I stayed there for 8 months. In Sweden, I was told that they have my fingerprints from Greece, and so therefore I must be sent back there. I explained to them that I couldn’t be in Greece as I didn’t get my rights fulfilled there, and I gave them all the documents that I had. I tried to convince them not to send me back there, but they explained to me the Dublin Agreement according to which I must be sent back.
Therefore, I escaped to Norway. I ask for your mercy because of all the obstacles that I have experienced. I ask the Norwegian Directorate of Immigration to evaluate my application for asylum and not to send me back to Greece or Iraq. I swear that my declaration is true.
Ahmad Jwad Ali
Oslo, 7th of February 2008
Many thanks to all of you who paid attention to my humble contribution and the observations made. Many thanks in particular to our host DD for doing so for a series of my previous comments.
Ladies and Gentlemen my contribution didn’t aim to exonerate excuse or justify any ill action that potentially may have been perpetrated. It was merely a call for all to exercise intelligent judgement based on the evidence presented for THIS PARTICULAR case alone! I was not around when these happened and neither were you! To jump into conclusion based on extrapolating previous cases enough much when even the evidence on previous cases does not justify the gross and as yet unfounded accusation of outright murder or attempt to murder!!!!! The present case and the straight connotation made have still the big holes I indicated! The question I posed has not been answered by any of you! It doesn’t mean that in the end I will be right and you will be wrong! It only means simply that to reinstate your stereotypes preconceived ideas and prejudice is not the best means to come the truth. And although I am sure you will attack me for this assertion of mine do have this in mind as it will in the end help you been more effective in the good causes you embark upon, for all those who in fact kind intentions for human beings is all they have!
I also spoke of the adverse and direct political involvement of Turkey on the dramatic problem of human trafficking (human trafficking and illegal immigration go hand in hand Mr MBE!). I was not surprised about the reaction of our British friends! I am used to the veiled protection status this country enjoys either in terms of focused individual groups or your mainstream political Establishments! On the other hand MBE’s No2 statement implicitly justifies my observation so as far as I am concerned my case had been made!
Mr Dimitras points out many problems with illegal immigrants and pointed out at a list of systematic failures on this hot issue in Greece. Although these are severe on their own do not point out for the country been the Hell that Mr Danielena does imply but simply that the problem is so massive that to my opinion Greece alone cannot cope with at the practical level.
If the only thing my country requested from the EU is merely transfer of some funds alone then this is a wrong move! Greece has to directly appeal to our colleagues in Europe to SHARE the numbers involved in some proportion so as with whatever number we will be left with can manage with our limited resources. But above all handle the problem to its ROOT cause: What makes people from the 4 corners of the world to go on dingy in the rough seas of Aegean the Mediterranean or the Atlantic and on may occasion suicidally PUNTURE THEMSELVES their raft in order to reach their heavens who is not their place, the place they were born and raised but some far away place that they care little and perhaps know even less! And what our RESPONSIBILITY in the end for all these ROOT causes? And how SINCERE are we to solve them or do something positive about!!!!
Many thanks to all
JC: Although the practical difficulties faced by Greece are not inconsiderable, the same is true for most EU countries. Globally, the developed world is now paying the price for centuries of exploitation of vulnerable countries: Greece, strange as it may seem, is part of the developed world and has to accept its own share of responsibility in managing migration flows.
From an economic perspective, there is not much to manage: illegal imigrants are a core component in every European and North American country, populating the worst paid sectors. This is no accident. From a social perspective, there are some problems which require attention; equally, politically. However, it is most of all from the human rights perspective that the greatest challenges emerge. To be fair to Greece, it is one of the few countries where the Supreme Court has determined that illegal immigrants cannot be deprived of their workers’ rights, simply because the employer is exploiting them.
However, insofar as the Greek state authorities are concerned, there is a long long history of abuse of immigrants. Furthermore, the Greek state shows no shame about the torture and even murder of illegal migrants: I have had conversations with apparently “normal” Greeks who suddenly tell me: “Of course, if they cross our borders we should kill them”. The usual nationalism, but still…
Addressing the issue of illegal migration, I think I know my own area of expertise, JC. Actually, it is personally and professionally highly offensive to be told by people with no knowledge of the area how to do my own research. What is central is the degree to which illegal migrants retain control over their lives, are cheated, or exploited, or imprisoned, or murdered… These are not small differences. In that respect, there is no information to suggest that Turkey is the locus of massive abuse of illegal migrants — in fact, it looks very similar to Greece. Furthermore, unlike Greece, there is a lot of serious research conducted on these issues in Turkey. Therefore we have a lot of information, and are able to draw qualified conclusions. In the case of Greece, as you will read in the links posted by Panayiote, the Greek state hides everything, even trying to control (in a fascist manner) the contacts made by the Council of Europe representatives. There is good reason to do this, because there is much to be ashamed of in a country which has been a member of the EC since 1981.
Many thanks MBE for your reply!
In principle I am always appreciating the technical knowledge of you or others on this issue and never wish to encroach on areas that myself is not an expert. Not withstanding this allow me to still vertically disagree with you on the issue Turkey plays and the implicit exploitation (perhaps more political than individual) of humans trafficked across. You say that ‘Turkey is NOT the locus of massive abuse of illegal migrants’! Well they don’t to! in the way you perhaps mean! Just exported across and allow those small or large ‘businessmen to profit!. The case they are making is a political one along the lines you are inferring! And although it may be an issue foe definition for experts as you but for me and others it is still a ‘BRUTAL’ exploitation and an issue of prime importance! f.
Since suddenly Greece somehow become part of the 1st world I agree that it needs to share the problem. But this sharing has to be air and my humble opinion is that at this point it isn’t!
Greece was never a colonial place and never went though all the steep learning curve that all you ex-Colonialist learned in the post-Colonial period. Issues that Dimitras point out may still be valid. I would refrain though from the excessive and in cases perhaps unfounded accusations of institutional wrong doing you are making not because specific events are untrue but because these are just symptoms of failures of a system that is not equipped by prior knowledge experience and actual potential for the shear magnitude of the problem is facing!
Although not expert myself I try to be both balanced and reasonable as I believe both elements are important if an acceptable and practical solution is to be found!
Again Regards
JC SAID:
“”"Ladies and Gentlemen my contribution didn’t aim to exonerate excuse or justify any ill action that potentially may have been perpetrated. It was merely a call for all to exercise intelligent judgement based on the evidence presented for THIS PARTICULAR case alone! I was not around when these happened and neither were you!”"”
JC, don’t you think that a Turkish nationalist could say the same thing about the atrocities you mentioned done by the Turks as well?
So, who is right? You or the Turkish nationalists?
Both can’t be right can they?
Well Philip if he say so he may not be a nationalist after all!
We can then be both be right in their own way !
Have you ever thought of this??
Probably not!
Philip
Just try to look back what I have written in its entirety and please refrain from reciting the usual general purpose clichés. If a Turkish ‘nationalist’ said what I say he wouldnt have been a nationalist! He could had been right as well.
At least this is my humble opinion.
Be free of course to disagree with me! I think I made myself clear in any case.
JC, I typed too fast. What I meant is that you are saying that Greeks bear no fault and it’s all propaganda (I think).
Could not a Turkish nationalist also say that propaganda exists to hurt Turkey as well.
You are a Greek nationalist right? So, you would support Greece regardless of fault? Just the same as a Turk nationalist would support Turkey.
But, in the end, can both be right? Turks say Cyprus was Greece’s fault because they were protecting the island from Greeks invading with a junta. And Greeks say the opposite.
If I want to be fair, who am I really to believe. Because I’ve heard both arguments about Cyprus and I’m still undecided as to who is at fault.
That’s the question..
Philip
I didn’t say anything of the kind you are accusing me! I have only tried to rational, inquisitive and observant only! If you interpret this as propaganda well let the rest form an opinion!!!!
As for Cyprus is a different case and correct me if I am wrong but I cannot remember mentioning ANYTHING about it so far!!!
You are probably mixing me with someone else!
I urge you to read back what I said!! I don’t think it was written in any convoluted way! The again my English may not be up to the standard! If this is the case I apologize for the confusion I may have caused you
Regards
PS
Now if you want me to discuss the issue of Cyprus with you I am very happy to offer you my opinion. But I don’t want to do this here as the subject is not directly relevant! Our host DD has to decide on this.
Philip, the current fault in Cyprus is not equidistant between Turkey and Greece. There is an occupying army in Cyprus and it should leave.
But as John says this is not the forum. However, I have put some thought into the refugee/immigrant problems raised above in the context of game theory. Because most European countries have similar immigration policies to Greece (and some even harsher) leading to small or no penalties, and because there is little incentive to cooperate with Turkey, then the best option for Greece is to send the refugees back to Turkey. Under this option will not not receive the wrath of Europe and they will help to reduce the burden on the Greek state and increase the burden on Turkey. Obviously, there is an element of the Tragedy of the Commons here because if the cost of an sending immigrants back and forth between Greece and Turkey becomes very high then it will ultimately burden the Greek state until the refugees realise they should try another country.
The immigration policies of Greece have very little in common with other European countries. This is a fallacy. I have no idea what you mean by “small or no penalties”, but I can assure you that detained illegal migrants are imprisoned in harsh conditions. This is unlike Greeks who are actually convicted of criminal offences and instead of going to prison usually find a way to “buy off” their prison sentence with money. This latter is a “small or no penalty” for a convicted criminal, which asylum-seekers and illegal migrants are not.
On the issue of refugees: first of all, you cannot deport people to other countries without clear legal processes and agreements. Turkey does not recognise the extended geographical coverage of the Geneva Convention, so asylum-seekers cannot apply for asylum there. Not that they can apply for asylum in Greece, either, although in theory they can. Most asylum-seekers come to Greece intending to go on to another EU country where the rule of law applies and they can apply for legal status.
Generally, I note a political intent in this discussion to blame everything on Turkey and accept no responsibility for the crimes committed by Greeks in Greece. This is what the thread is about — how Greek officials are committing serious crimes and go unpunished.
Martin, there are little or no penalties meted out to Greece from Europe. The organisations you work for are paper tigers which have no power other than in small minds filled with Che Guevara fantasies.
Renegade states are a problem in multinational structures, if that is what you mean. It is assumed that the state upholds the law and is not itself corrupt. The question is rather why people tolerate criminal behaviour.
JC, my apologies. Yes, I was confusing you with another poster on another blog, and posted my comment about Cyprus in error.
I think i’ll just fold at this point, but if the Cyprus issue gets brought up then maybe I’ll add more info to the topic.
That all right Philip!
Regards
Martin, there be no renegade state in a multinational structure when none of the states in the multinational structure respect the laws of the multinational structure. Also, people tolerate this “behaviour” because they do not consider it criminal. Also, they do not respect the organisations that deem certain actions criminal.
There are many unresolved issues pertaining to the EU and sovereign nations which are likely to become more important over the next few years. As for NGOs, nearly everyone in Greece knows they are sponsored by the US State Department, local groups seeking favours through trade and markets and Soros-like foundations. Vladimir Putin has rightly exposed and evicted these undemocratic groups. Unfortunately, Greece does not have a nuclear arsenal nor vast commodity resources to do the same.
legein: please stop your nationalistic propaganda. First, NGOs in Greece have nothing to do with the USA. It is such a preposterous claim that I can only laugh at it.
Secondly, it is disgusting that Greek people who claim to be civilised think that criminal and violent behaviour against non-Greeks is acceptable. I think that you do not speak for the majority of the Greek population, but for the minority that you do speak for, here is a message. You don’t belong in the western world, you don’t belong amongst decent human beings. Stay in the gutter where vermin belong.
Thirdly, most countries in Europe do respect the rule of law, although try to manipulate at the margins. The problem with Greece is that NOBODY respects any laws, most especially the criminals operating within the state structure. This is at least one definition of a renegade state, and I know personally many Greek who are ashamed of their country for precisely this reason.
Martin, you are struggling to cope again. Take a breather little man. Please turn off the tape recorder drivel, stop repeating undergraduate slogans found at second rate universities, and think for yourself.
Have you seen the official tax filings of the Soros Foundation? Should I post them on this site?
The arrogance and pure drivel that we have to tolerate from you, legein. Just become part of the civilised world for once, if you can. And stop the nasty petty personal remarks, which are typical of peasant culture, as you have been told before.
It is an undeniable truth and proven fact beyond reasonable doubt that many of the western sponsored NGOs are corrupted infiltrated orchestrated driven or financed by US or alike foreign centres. Many of these NGOs service in practice no other purpose other than PROJECTING power by other means and exercise pressure to those locals that are not happy enough or stubbornly disobedient to toe the line! Many of those belonging to these organisations are embedded sleepers or active members of secret services or simply idiots caught in the spider’s nets of those forces.
Is this just the story???? No! Many are no doubt involved in these organisations with sincere intentions driven purely by humanistic ideals! The effectiveness of the covert operation of these Organisations would have been zero have they only involved on subject and areas of no relevance or simply completely made up and fictitious! The potential successes they aspire stem the facts that they exploit REAL issues REAL problems and REAL attitudes! This is something that we GREEKS should NOT look away! It is very much of our interest rather to brush off the issues made on the ground of the real arguments made, to address the problems HEAD on and rather than cry foul TAKE the initiative and prove our good intentions in PRACTICE. Dry the lake where those adverse forces bread and swim, live and grow!
I rather than playing Inspector Clouseau and try to see who is what and when I am only interested on the issues brought and try in a sincere way to express opinions or form ideas on issues. I hope by doing so in the end that those deemed the useful idiots by our foes will become friends of ours! And the gains and dividends that will be reaped this way will be of magnitude larger by those we may hope obtaining if simply focus on the real conspiracy and cry that we are the victims (which I strongly believe WE ARE)!
We Greeks need to be practical and effective If we make the life of fellow human been better using whatever methods and ways our limited capacity and means allow we will do well! Even if devil advocates the same it will still be as GOOD as if God required alike!
We may not able to do everything we may not been able to be perfect all the time. We may do mistakes! But we should put our act together face the underlining issues straight and deploy our resources and ask for help if needed and ask our friends to share the burden with us! And I will say that my experience is that not withstanding the well known sworn adversaries duplicitous associates and opportunists of ours we still have friends! Many friends. We should never forget this. And it is in our hands to make them more! It is in our hands to win the fight for the benefit of dignity and undeniable rights of our country as well as the rights of fellow human beens who trusted their existence and future with us.
This discussion is not about the USA or political sponsoring of any groups, which is not proven in the case of NGOs promoting human rights issues. Most of what has been written here is pure fiction.
What is at issue here, is that Greeks on the thread openly state whether or not they accept that the criminal behaviour of the Greek borderguard is a valid concern or not. legein has stated clearly that it is of no interest to him. JC has written a long long message saying nothing at all. I have expressed what I think is a universal opinion that killing and torture of illegal migrants is the behaviour of scum.
So, JC, please stick to the topic. Answer the question.
MBE you say I have written a long message saying nothing at all. Let the rest decide on it! But all I have written all are very relevant on what is discussed and I believe true. Many may not like them but what can I do? It is still true!
As for the question I have answered it and I believe in more ways that ONE!
Denial may not be a trait solely to us peasant from the South but the trait of peasants from the North as well!
PS
You cannot be serious posing a question about the unacceptability of killing and torture and assuming that anyone could possibly answer positive! And killing and torture will always be UNACCEPTABLE either we refer to illegal immigrants or the scums of Belmarsh or Guantanamo where all many eminent Governors, contributors and benefactors of some NGOs turn the blind eye and know nothing about!
If NGOs are really part of the US State Dept and are thus improving the state of the United States, as an American, I think that’s great!
I think most Americans would think that anything that makes America stronger (financially or otherwise) is a good thing.
If Greeks are espousing sour grapes because of their weak status in the world, then maybe they should work on their self esteem instead of whining about NGOs and America.
George your vision on the functions NGOs is unacceptable from what they supposed to be or what their openly declared aims are but I have regrettably to accept your word as sincere and quite probably factual as well!
I have also to accept your assessment on the weakness of the Greek state as again probably correct too!
Of course if you accept your vision as true then we have in front of us the picture of the true nationalism. Within this image anyone who can accuse Greeks as nationalists must be a true peasant or village idiot.
I for myself not interested in creating a state that will be strong according the lines so brutally honestly you spelled. For me building a small descent and effective state would be a far more honourable aim. We may still bound by human weakness or the weaknesses in power stemming from our small natural size, but I will be more than content with this package compared to the arrogance associated with large strengths and unstoppable powers of those who use any means to justify their ends who use the human suffering as an instrument for pressurizing those dare to disobey!
Still MBE torture and killings is simply unacceptable and utterly unjustifiable either used by the strongest or the weakest alike!
Renegade states? Hahaha
Now I do have to laugh over that one as the largest and most corrupt “renegade states” is the European Union with its “politburo” firmly entrenched in Brussels. What else would you call a state that has ignored vote after vote by the people it is supposed to answer to? We have people like Martin who are proponents of “legality and laws” however after scraping the surface of his rhetoric, we find he is simply a proponent of the “correct” laws.
Martin states:
What is at issue here, is that Greeks on the thread openly state whether or not they accept that the criminal behaviour of the Greek borderguard is a valid concern or not. legein has stated clearly that it is of no interest to him. JC has written a long long message saying nothing at all. I have expressed what I think is a universal opinion that killing and torture of illegal migrants is the behaviour of scum.
Interesting. National “laws” and sovereignty are to be ignored and relegated as “unimportant” while Martin’s opinion is elevated to universal acceptance. Has it ever crossed our esteemed cacophonist’s mind that we have not, as of yet, descended into the borderless, One World Government, quagmire he envisions for us “morons”? That some of us actually want mono-ethnic states? That some of us enjoy OUR diversity? We are not proponents of strong armed and goose stepping tactics as Martin’s enlightened ilk are want to do when finally attaining the power they so crave. We are not convinced to buy his snake oil after his propagandized sales pitch. Let me guess, he thinks he knows what best for us and we are too stupid to know any better. Right, Martin?
Well, idiot with the stupid name, it would be fine by me if Greeks obeyed their own laws! Since you cannot even do that, what difference does it make which laws we are talking about. Again, this is Greek nationalism taking attention away from the real issues.
JC: thank you for confirming that at least you accept the principles of civilised behaviour. If you look carefully, you will see that a lot of Greeks here think it is OK to abuse or kill migrants. The last poster with the silly name is clearly in that category, as is legein [if, indeed, they are different people].
John, I think you said you had no education. If that is true, you seem to be doing quite well.
Martin, why did you ignore my question? Like the recognition of the Pontic genocide you seem to have trouble coping with the truth when it does not suit Nazi inspired aims.
legein: I suggest you learn how to keep to the point. The topic of this thread is clearly defined at the top, so try to exercise a little self-control and answer my question.
Insfar as your last post is concerned, I am not prepared to discuss propanganda. You have been told this time and again, but you persist with nationalist propaganda. Just stop it.
Martin states:
Well, idiot with the stupid name, it would be fine by me if Greeks obeyed their own laws! Since you cannot even do that, what difference does it make which laws we are talking about. Again, this is Greek nationalism taking attention away from the real issues.
Are you truly a scholar, Martin? It seems, with your penchant for gross generalizations and ad hominem smears of an entire people located within the boundaries of a specific geographic area, you show yourself quite lacking in scholarship, let alone discriminatory abilities. Do you also generalize when blacks and Jews cross your lips as well, Martin? Or are only Greeks treated to your special brand of pedagogical “scholarship”?
Yet again, people seem to be incapable of sticking to the topic and to refrain from attacking each other. It’s a shame because the issue of the post is very important and one that I think this country needs to investigate.
I have closed comments on this thread.