Trust and Mistrust
Published by deviousdiva January 31st, 2008 in European Union.I have to admit, I was quite surprised by the outcome of this Eurobarometer survey considering the amount of disagreement I hear on this blog. Especially when I point out some of the human rights and equality laws that Greece blatantly flaunts. Perhaps it’s easier when it comes from Greek people themselves ? What do you think?
Greeks trust European Union institutions more than their national ones, according to a new Eurobarometer survey, which also reveals that Greeks have the least faith in the media among all EU citizens.
Eight in 10 Greeks do not trust political parties – one of the highest rates among all 27 EU states – according to the survey which was conducted at the end of last year and made public by EU officials in Athens yesterday. In addition, only half (52 percent) of Greeks trust the national Parliament. But nearly the same proportion of Greeks (46 percent) declare that they trust their government, as compared to an average of just 34 percent in other EU countries.
Furthermore, 65 percent of Greeks state that they have faith in the EU, a significantly high proportion compared to the EU average of 48 percent. Greeks appear to be even more fond of the European Parliament, with 77 percent saying they trusted it. Greeks also display one of the highest rates (80 percent) of satisfaction with their country’s membership of the EU.
The survey also showed Greeks to be the most suspicious of national media, with 62 percent declaring their lack of trust, against an EU average of 49 percent. Greeks are also critical of their television channels, with just 36 percent having a positive view, compared to the EU average of 52 percent.
Greeks are distinctly less at ease with the Internet too, with 62 percent saying they mistrust it, significantly above the EU average of 35 percent.
The survey examined citizens’ attitudes on a range of other subjects, including the economy and the environment – with Greeks again among the moodiest in the bloc.
Three-quarters (72 percent) of all Greek respondents said they believed the state of the environment in their country was “bad.” Only the Hungarians were more despondent on this issue.
A similar percentage of Greeks (76 percent) believe that the national economy is in a bad state. Again only Hungary – along with Portugal, Lithuania and Croatia – had a gloomier outlook.
Technorati: european union, greece, eu, internet, environment
Sad but true about the economy and environment in greece, especially Athens.
…not very peasents after all…
Hahahahahahahaha
For all you ’squeaky clean’ Brits the name to search for is …Derek Conway MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup…
Greeks love their conspiracy theories. All the ottoman empire years mistrusting the Turks has made them mistrust everyone.
But, at least with the Greek Orthodox Church, they could have a point:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4d.....2008_92189
These views are internally consistent and entirely consistent with everything that has been measured in the past. Also, these views are entirely rational. Why would Greeks be happy about anything? We are not a happy people. Life is a misery for Greeks but we cannot get enough of it. This paradox in itself, is incredibly infuriating. And the fact this is infuriarating makes us even more unhappy. Gradually, faith in the EU will also wane. Just give it time. I am not sure why anyone would want to migrate to Greece. Why would you want to surround yourself with miserable people all the time? If I was Congolese or Bangladeshi I’d choose a happier place like the United States or Australia.
“If I was Congolese or Bangladeshi I’d choose a happier place like the United States or Australia.”
Trust me–they are. America loves to take all the great minds that Europe is too snooty to absorb.
Hyphenated-Greeks or non-nationalistic Greeks are not so bad to surround yourself with. It’s just the “Edo Ellada” crowd that I don’t care for.
America has a different conception of a citizen than do most European countries. Their concept is more abstract based on certain ideals outside of time. European concepts also have these abstract ideals but they also incorporate history and natural relations. They are two different approaches to defining man or citizen and if everyone likes to celebrate difference then we should not wish they converge.
The claim that America takes the greatest minds is rapidly becoming false. Most Indians, Russians and Chinese that I do business with are returning to their homelands after using the American education system. And even there America is less desirable than it was 10 years ago. It is only Europeans who have no confidence in the history making ability of their cultures who are still enamoured with the United States.
I am sure what Hyphenated-Greeks are? Is Hyphenation a country?
Do not be fooled George. Your beloved Americans are the most nationalistic people on earth. Again, it does not seem that way because it is not based on race but on ideals. Regardless, it is still nationalism.
Greeks have always [along with other southern European countries, and most of the East European] been been ardent supporters of the EU. To a great extent, this reflects long-term disillusion with the quality of governance and real democracy in these countries. The problem is that the EU just doesn’t deliver proper governance, only subsidies to a few countries.
Insofar as nationalism is concerned, OK — Americans are nationalist, but theirs is an inclusive nationalism which accepts anyone prepared to work and fit in. Greek nationalism has an entirely different exclusionary mentality, which does nobody any good — including Greeks. This is all part of the self-hating mentality which seems to describe contemporary Greeks.
In my view, the solution is for Greece to drop the arrogant claims to cultural superiority and just accept the concept of meritocracy — jobs for people who can do them, unemployment for second-rate people who think that political or personal connections are all that matters. It is this primitive mentality that makes Greeks [and xenoi] suffer, because it rewards criminal lazy types and has nothing to offer decent people.
No, Martin you are wrong. You fail to think deeply enough. Your thinking pivots around race to the exclusion of everything else.
American nationalism is not inclusive at all. As you even say, one must fit in. Therefore, a person migrating to the United States must take on American values. Have you noticed that despite apparent freedom Americans appear to be more uniform than any other people? The need to conform in the United States is very strong. For example, their political spectrum is extremely narrow, primarily based on marginally different economic models. There is no genuine movement of the Left. Does any mainstream party demand the destruction of the capitalist system? There is no geniune movement of the Right. There cannot be because they do not have vestiges of an ancien regime. They are horrified when it is pointed out to them that from a European perspective, capitalism, a form of liberalism, is really a revolutionary movement of the Left. European 19th century conservatives found the United States abhorent because it represented a classless non-hierarchical society whilst European liberals and socialists, were enamoured with the United States because it represented what they wanted Europe to become.
In comparison, Greek nationalism (and European nationalism) only accepts Greeks but then it is more inclusive. You simply have to be Greek but then you can define yourself any way you want. For example, Orthodox theologians have become members of KKE. Simply, the idea of this sends Americans into spasms.
Which system is dominant? I would say the “Greek” one is. Just look at Japan, Korea, Russia, Iran, Ethiopia and Israel amongst others. Which system is more durable? Nietzsche said something like “those with the longest memory live longest” or something like that. Will Americans be around in 2000 years? Or will Greeks or Jews or Armenians or Chinese?
I know where I’d put my money.
It is Greeks who are obsessed with race, not I. Your comments make no sense, legein. And of course people migrating to another country should fit in and adopt the common values: this is normal. The fact that Greeks mix up ideological positions [like Orthodoxy and KKE] is just an illustration of how meaningless the values of those belief systems are to them.
I do not know what you mean by a system. There is no Greek system, just a chaos predicated on nationalist racial ideology. And you fail, completely, to understand the point about meritocracy and how its deficit in modern Greece is destroying the country. The usual story of the ostrich mentality…
Martin, you are trapped. Try and adjust your deficient mental models to take in the wider world. The argument is quite simple to understand. It is easy to revert to what is taught to us and spout the same inane boring polemics time and time again. However, they lose their efficacy after a while.
“And of course people migrating to another country should fit in and adopt the common values: this is normal. ”
Have you adopted to Greek common values? Has Diva? Have you made any effort?
legein: I fail to understand where you think your superior mental abilities are located, but just cut it out. We are all bored with your Greek nationalism, so you can cut that out too.
Martin, you are increasingly becoming unoriginal. Please turn off the automatic pilot, stop repeating what you read in Eleftherotypia or Eurozine and provide a sensible counter argument.
“We are all bored with your Greek nationalism, so you can cut that out too.”
Since when did pride and one’s love for his family. people. country and culture become nationalism? Do you white people here feel love for your country of origin? Do you feel a belongingness? I have an idea: Instead of spending all this time behind a computer expressing all these ideas that you do why don’t you gather up once a week in person and go out and have fun? Maybe its loneliness that bothers you too. I sincerely mean this. I am not trying to be sarcastic of some sort. Go out and tear us Greeks apart but do it with some music, drinks, heck some dancing never hurts. You chose the wrong people to fight with because Greeks don’t fight back bitterness, we kill it with our spirituality and way of living. I remember one time when I met this man in New Jersey that owned a restaurant. He would close the restaurant down every once a week and gather about 20 people all of them playing a musical instrument and spend all of the afternoon playing music singing dancing etc. When he found out that I played guitar he simply told me something like : ” You want to come and join us when we play so you can see what it is to kill the devil”? lol
I personally believe that a good Zeibekiko can kill the devil as well.
What do you think?
Yiannis, Martin makes extraoridinary leaps of logic all the time. You should have become accustomed to it. I have never written anything which a sensible level headed person would interpret as “nationalistic” but Martin continues with the exceedingly poor attempts of slander. He does his credibility no favours. He is obvously not coping well and the whispers around campus are growing.
I agree with your suggestion of killing the devil. I killed the devil last night too for about five hours with some friends. And I play the guitar too. Playing some Malamas songs lately helps me kill the devil too.
These “white people” you allude too are on the way out. History is increasingly being made without Anglo-American culture in places like China, India and maybe Russia. There has been a shift to a multi-polar world. And these organisations that Martin works for (which are usually nothing more than an extension of Anglo-American imperialism) are finding their work increasingly more difficult because these large emerging blocs just ignore them. Sovereignty is being restored. Greece has to reorientate itself in this new environment.
I have lived in Greece for a year now. I agree with Legein and Yiannis that it’s better to have fun than be lonely and argue. There are many things I find odd about the Greeks but rather than point them out I just ignore them and focus on the positive things. However, nationalism and racism is not a good thing because it will cause you to exclude many who could otherwise enjoy a drink with you.
legein: you have been told before by DD: STOP YOUR PERSONAL ATTACKS. I have nothing more to say to you, because you respond with personal abuse. I find your behaviour offensive, and I suppose from your recent comments that you are a student in the university where I teach. This makes your behaviour all the more unacceptable.
Giannis: most Greeks seem completely lacking in patriotism and are obsessed with nationalism. Patriotism [love of one's country] I agree with, but this is not what is going on. Instead, we see mindless propaganda being recycled, again and again, and a complete lack of respect for the search for truth.
Martin, most people find your entire existence, offensive. Your ideas are stale and have been proven, unfortunately through historical examples, to be destructive. You are an intellectual light weight yet continue with your haughty behaviour. Who asked you to stay in Greece again? Certainly not its people…
Martin, or should I call you Mr Martin, Kyrie Martin, because of the age difference that I assume that we’re having. I’m in my thirties and from what I read you teach at a university, so you must be older than me.
I am a fairly new visitor in these blog but from I’ve seen I’ll have to say that never did legein, or myself attack anyone personally . What he and I do is to try to explain things to you that I’m sorry to say, you don’t understand about my people. I’m again sorry to say this, but I think that it might be your culture that doesn’t allow you to understand. In no way I’m going to call you a racist because from what I’ve read from you and others here that criticize my people you are all nice folk but also bothered by things. Of course you and Philip will find things “odd” while you’re living in Greece the same things that I find odd living in NY the past 10 years of my life.
Mr. Martin I see people here divided everyday. I see blacks and Hispanics living in ghettos in the worst conditions and I see others living on the upper east side of Manhattan in expensive apartments with big cars and all, complaining that the government shouldn’t be helping the poor with their taxes. How am I suppose to understand that and not find it “odd” when I come from a culture where people that are better off always try to find ways to help the poorer or weaker? Tell me Mr. Martin.
How am I suppose to understand a war that has killed thousands of innocent poor Iraqis and has also killed and crippled physically and mentally thousands of poor American soldiers while half of the population doesn’t seem to complain or care about that?
One thing I don’t do is to criticize the American population because I understand that its not enitrely their fault. They have been scammed into believing that the poor should be killed in a war or shot in a ghetto. That the poor has no value.
So you’re not alone in this. There’s many people who for some reason live away from their homeland and feel isolated. If I was in Greece I would have taken you out for a frappe or ouzaki and hang out. Do you have any Greek friends Mr. Martin that you go out with? If no why not? Of course Im talking about common Greek folk that once you get to know you see that it is not “common” at all. It is common folk that carries the riches and beauty of our culture.
Don’t fight us Greeks Mr Martin. As I said before it doesn’t make sense because we don’t fight back. You might be losing your time doing that. Try to understand us and once you do, then offer us as many suggestions as you wish as long as we understand that you’re doing it because you care about us and you want to help us in any ways.
Also if legein happens to be a student of yours please don’t fail him, lol!!!!
Legein buddy I have visited your blog and I really like the things you’re writing. I dont have a college education and its a bit difficult for me to read your writtngs without two ditionaries next to me lol. Im glad that you also kill the devil when you get a chance. Right now I’m doing it while writting this listening to the Waterboys. Those Irish boys seem to know how to be spiritual too and they kick ass doing so. I wish I was with you and your friends when you partied the other day but I myself am also a “xeno” here and opportunities like that are rarer. When I get a chance though I play Socrates Malamas too. Lately I’ve been also taking classes from Lakis Lazopoulos show. He realy carries the Greek spirit like no one:).
Γιαννης.
More personal attacks from anonymous Greek peasants. Such a delight to deal with these nationalist-fascists.
Gianni: I agree with most of what you say. Yet I do have Greek friends, and I realise the positive aspects of Greece. Much of the unpleasant discourse here has occurred because of the sheer nastiness of some of the Greek contributors to the blog. The anonymous post above is an example.
In the case of legein, it is the weak philosophical arguments justifying nationalism that are the main irritation, along with an affectation of superiority. Again, this is something I have suffered with many times — the inability of apparently most Greek people to respect others and their achievements. This is what I referred to as the “Balkan peasant mentality” and I insist upon it as a description of how things are. Even educated people seem incapable, for the most part, of showing respect to anyone else. I hope that I have never shown the same disrespect to others’ genuine contributions: if I have, I apologise.
Martin loosen up!! Take it easy…
Yannis, there are many in NYC and America who don’t want their tax money to go to the poor because they believe that charity should be given voluntarily by the individual and not the Government. This is primarily a Republican view but in some ways I can see their point. Why should I have to give money out of my salary to someone who doesn’t have the common sense or education to take care of himself. This type of person can sponge of hard working Americans and has no reason to improve. Of course, there are indigents or disabled people who should be assisted at any cost.
Now, there are also Democrats who believe our US tax dollars should be used to assist the poor. This also I can understand because maybe if these poor people have money to feed their families, and find work, and be productive, they won’t have to turn to a life of crime and come into the upper west side to my home and rob me.
Both points are valid and that’s the great thing about Democracy. We don’t all have to have the same view.
Like it or not the USA does represent Democracy at its best. Even with all our faults, mistakes, varied cultures, good and bad leadership and legislation, who is better off in the world? The USA is the only Governmental Democratic system which still adheres to protecting the citizen, the foundation of democracy. It can adjust because of our framework
of separation of powers, which does not exist anywhere else and that State must stay supreme to exist today.
People always want to criticize America’s war in Iraq and elsewhere. It is sad that the situation exist as it does today, but military deterrents are always absolute.
The saddest part of it all is: Nothing has changed and we are being pushed by the pursuit of existence to either have one world with independent democratic nations or a finial conflict…so it seems.
Since you say you do not have a college education, that is not a problem. However, you should read a wonderful book called “Freakonomics”
More personal attacks from anonymous Greek peasants. Such a delight to deal with these nationalist-fascists.
Martin, comments such as this is what makes you into such a non-serious caricature. You’ve used the “anonymous” card many times in the past in order to discredit commenters and I do believe that time before was with Mr Crysanthakopoulos. To his credit, he immediately began using his real name and you still did not have any reasonable retort for him. Let’s not even get into the name calling that you deem acceptable when it is you doing it, such as peasants and nationalist fascists.
Martin, you old sod, it is you who has no argument aside from the usual word games you have been taught. History has clearly shown us that totalitarian governments end badly. Both, for the people it oppresses and for the elite. Did you sleep through those lectures, Martin?
JC: I am sorry, but these are personal and offensive attacks. I do not accept that anonymous people have the right to behave in this crude and sneering way. Even if that is acceptable to Greeks (and I doubt it), it is not generally acceptable to civilised people. The values of the gutter are not my values. I have asked DD to remove the personal attacks on this blog.
Whaty a depressing dialogue of the deaf! It would be nice if DD’s interesting post was followed by sober reflection on the reality of Greek political culture. Instead we have a phony ideological war that really does not belong here. Most contributors know so much they seem unwilling to learn and far too ready to take offence. Quite sad really, whether they be lecturers or students. I guess DD is now thinking she had a lucky escape not going to University.
I think your opinion is not shared by my Greek students of the last 8 years, Papa Duck. My first post here was about the content of the original post, and the nationalists chose to pursue their usual line and insist on how bad other countries/cultures are.
Furthermore, I do not think it phoney or ideological to take offence at personal insults. If you think it is ok, you belong in the sewer with the rest of them. I realise that the standards of Greek society as shown on TV are amongst the lowest in the world, but it is not necessary for all Greeks to sink to that level. Please, have a little dignity.
Actually your first post used applied the term ‘primitive mentality’ to the whole of Greece. I can see how some might be offended by that. The fact that it might not be intended as a racist insult is important to me (I am still wanting to engage with you verbally, not something I am inclined to do with racists) but you really ought to take more care if you do not want to be seen as hyprocritical.
So I might belong in the sewer with the rest of them? You really know how to make friends! What makes you think I am Greek anyway?
Well, ok, I am not renowned for diplomacy
I do think that many of the problems of Greece relate to a certain lack of sophistication in social affairs, which tend to be instinctive [or "primitive"]. This can have very positive results at the personal level, but very negative results for organising the society and economy. And of course I am not racist: I deny the meaning of “race” as a concept. The explanation of most of my comments here is that I am intolerant of things in any culture, including the British, which seem to be self-congratulatory or which deny the value of independent critical thinking.
I had no view of your nationality or origins, papa duck: my comment was solely to emphasise the unacceptability of personal attacks on anyone. I am very happy to engage in genuine discussion, which is needed throughout Europe and not only in Greece.
Your lack of diplomacy makes me think you a poor judge as to what constitutes civilised behaviour or for that matter a personal insult. But my object is not to criticize you so much as to encourage you to be more measured and specific. Indulging in generalisations just encourages what I called the dialogue of the deaf.
I am confused MBE! On one hand you speak of: ‘unacceptability of personal attacks on anyone’ and on the other hand you told me the other time that ‘you are rude here as you think this is all the Greeks understand!’ Never mind that I reject this assertion of yours but surely you imply then that you yourself is engaging in personal attacks!
You may think that those cases are done with justification but then again others may think too likewise!
And where this is living us?
On the other hand my suggestion (and I may not try to be patronising) is to stop having chips on your shoulder and try to address the message directly and not perhaps the ugly (to you opinion!) package it came with!
The fact that it might not be intended as a racist insult is important to me (I am still wanting to engage with you verbally, not something I am inclined to do with racists) but you really ought to take more care if you do not want to be seen as hyprocritical.
By the standards of today along with the associated sensitivities, Martin’s words surely are racist. How do I know this? Well, all we need to do is substitute his words and assume he discussing a group or nation of blacks, asians, Jews, or whatever else. Then the “racist bell” will surely be ringing off the hook. Simple really.
As for hypocritical, I’m afraid Martin comes up short in that area as well. The man is full of himself, never defends his positions without ad hominems, and slurs entire groups of people and a nation while “pontificating”. Oh yes, then bellyaches to the site moderator for censorship of comments as they are “personal and offensive”. LOL
BTW, Papa Duck, how do you define “racist”?