Human Rights Activists Urgent Appeal
Published by deviousdiva January 20th, 2008 in Activism.I would like to urge all readers of this blog who care about human rights to read this post in full and take action in this case. Please also consider posting this information to your blogs (or websites / myspaces / facebooks) to help spread the word. You can download the complete word document from here.
Thank you.
The Observatory for the Protection of Human Rights Defenders, a joint programme of the World Organisation Against Torture (OMCT) and the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), requests your urgent intervention in the following situation in Greece.
The Observatory has been informed by the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) about new acts of harassment against the GHM and activists who filed criminal actions against Greece’s neo-Nazis.
According to the information received, on December 4, 2007, Mr. Panayote Dimitras, GHM Spokesperson and a member of OMCT Assembly of Delegates, testified at a trial against the extreme-right newspaper Eleftheros Kosmos, which had published articles on October 27, 2006 in conjunction of the anti-Semitic book by Mr. Kostas Plevris, The Jews - The whole truth (May 2006)
I posted about the whole case here.
The Observatory expresses its deep concern about these attacks, threats and judicial prosecution against Mr. Panayote Dimitras, Ms. Andrea Gilbert and Messrs. Moses Konstantinis, Benjamin Albala, Abraham Reitan and Leon Gavriilidis, which merely aim at sanctioning their human rights activities, in particular their activities against discrimination and anti-Semitism in Greece.
The Observatory also recalls that according to Article 12.2 of the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights Defenders, adopted by the UN General Assembly on December 9, 1998, “the State shall take all necessary measures to ensure the protection by the competent authorities of everyone, individually and in association with others, against any violence, threats, retaliation, de facto or de jure adverse discrimination, pressure or any other arbitrary action as a consequence of his or her legitimate exercise of the rights referred to in the present Declaration”.
Background information:
From the time the defendants were first summoned to testify in the preliminary investigation, in December 2006, up to and after the trial, they engaged in a series of insulting, defamatory, threatening and often racist statements -in extreme right newspapers, but also in at least one television channel, Extra 3- against GHM activists Panayote Dimitras and Andrea Gilbert and the four KIS Board Members.
At the preliminary examination, Ms. Andrea Gilbert and the KIS leadership filed complaints with constitution of civil claimant status. The Anti-Nazi Initiative (Antinazistiki Protovoulia) also filed an analytical memorandum in the form of a supplementary complaint report. All these parties were summoned as prosecution witnesses in the trial. In the two sets of hearings, the court expelled the Jewish civil claimants (of GHM and KIS), considering that individual Jews cannot claim direct victim status as a result of anti-Semitism speech.
Actions required:
Please write to the Greek authorities, urging them to:
Guarantee in all circumstances the physical and psychological integrity of Mr. Panayote Dimitras, Ms. Andrea Gilbert and Messrs. Moses Konstantinis, Benjamin Albala, Abraham Reitan and Leon Gavriilidis;
Order a thorough and impartial investigation into the above-mentioned threats against Mr. Panayote Dimitras, in order to identify all those responsible, bring them before a civil competent and impartial tribunal and apply to them the penal sanctions provided by the law;
Put an end to all acts harassment, including at the judicial level, against Mr. Panayote Dimitras, Ms. Andrea Gilbert and Messrs. Moses Konstantinis, Benjamin Albala, Abraham Reitan and Leon Gavriilidis and all human rights defenders in Greece;
Conform with the provisions of the UN Declaration on Human Rights Defenders, adopted by the General Assembly on December 9, 1998, especially its Article 1, which states that “everyone has the right, individually and in association with others, to promote and to strive for the protection and realisation of human rights and fundamental freedoms at the national and international levels”, as well as above-mentioned Article 12.2;
More generally, ensure in all circumstances the respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms in accordance with international and regional human rights instruments ratified by Greece.
Addresses:
Mr. Kostas Karamanlis, Prime Minister, Prime Minister’s Office at the Hellenic Parliament, Greek Parliament Blgd, Constitution Square, Athens, Greece. Fax: +30 210 3238129, Email: pressoffice@primeminister.gr
Ms. Dora Bakoyannis, Foreign Minister, Athens, Greece, Fax: + 30 210 36 81 433, Email: dorabakoyannis@mfa.gr
Mr. Sotiris Hatzigakis, Minister of Justice, Athens, Greece, Fax +30 2107489231
Mr. Giorgos Kaminis, Ombudsman for Human Rights, Fax 30 210 7289643 Email: hr@synigoros.gr
H.E. Franciscos Verros, Ambassador, Permanent Mission of Greece to the United Nations in Geneva, Rue du Léman 4, 1201 Geneva, Switzerland, Email: mission.greece@ties.itu.int, Fax: +41 22 732.21.50
Diplomatic Mission of Greece to the European Union, 25 rue Montoyer, 1000 Brussels, Belgium, Fax: + 32 2 512 79 12 / + 32 2 551 56 51.
Please also write to the embassies of Greece in your respective country.
For additional information about the Observatory for the Protection of Human Rights Defenders please read after the fold.
Kindly inform the Observatory of any action undertaken quoting the code number of this appeal in your reply.
The Observatory, a FIDH and OMCT venture, is dedicated to the protection of Human Rights Defenders and aims to offer them concrete support in their time of need.
The Observatory was the winner of the 1998 Human Rights Prize of the French Republic.
To contact the Observatory, call the emergency line:
Tel and fax: FIDH : +33 (0) 1 43 55 20 11 / 33 1 43 55 18 80
Tel and fax: OMCT : + 41 22 809 49 39 / 41 22 809 49 29
E-mail : Appeals@fidh-omct.org
International Federation for Human Rights
17, Passage de la Main d’Or
75 011 Paris, France
World Organisation Against Torture
Case postale 21 - 8 rue du Vieux-Billard
1211 Geneva 8, Switzerland
Technorati: greece, human rights, urgent appeal, activists, plevris
40 Responses to “Human Rights Activists Urgent Appeal”
- 1 Pingback on Jan 20th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
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DD, just a minor correction: the foreign affairs minister’s email is
dorabakoyannis@mfa.gr not gpap@mfa.gr (George Papandreou was foreign minister ages ago :-))
Thanks for that correction, danilena. I’ll pass it on.
thanks for the support
please note that the email for the prime minister’s office is
pressoffice@primeminister.gr
and for the foreign minister
dorabakoyannis@mfa.gr
and for the ombudsman
hr@synigoros.gr
Panayote
“Put an end to all acts harassment, including at the judicial level, against Mr. Panayote Dimitras, Ms. Andrea Gilbert and Messrs. Moses Konstantinis, Benjamin Albala, Abraham Reitan and Leon Gavriilidis and all human rights defenders in Greece”
I don’t seem to get it. What’s exactly the problem? Here’s two objections:
a) Everyone has a right to sue anyone, right? Nazi or not, deviousdiva or not, anybody can sue and take to court anybody. And the judiciary will decide. What’s wrong with that?
b) How exactly will the government “put an end, including at the judicial level” to this supposed harassment? By ordering the judges to act as the government pleases? How fair is that?
Athan, having the right to sue is fine, but there have to be safeguards in place as well. For example, in the USA along with some other jurisdictions, the judges have the discretion to throw out lawsuits they deem frivolous.
In Greece, maybe the judges don’t have the ability to throw out frivolous lawsuits? I’m not a member of the judiciary, but it seems to me the lawsuits against Panayote were out of spite rather than merit, were they not? A seasoned judge might possibly consider this lawsuit frivolous.
Maybe also that is why the Greek court system takes many, many years for cases to be heard because of all the frivolous lawsuits on the dockets and the fact that judges are not allowed to dismiss the frivolous ones.
This could be a problem endemic to the Greek judicial system that needs rethinking.
Frivolous is the least of it, although there are many such cases. What we are talking about here are malicious lawsuits, trying to undermine the effective operation of the judicial system at the same time as personally attacking the people who brought a lawsuit which actually resulted in a conviction. When in England, they say “The law is an ass”, this barely suffices as a description of what is going on here.
‘having the right to sue is fine, but there have to be safeguards in place as well. For example, in the USA along with some other jurisdictions, the judges have the discretion to throw out lawsuits they deem frivolous… it seems to me the lawsuits against Panayote were out of spite rather than merit, were they not? A seasoned judge might possibly consider this lawsuit frivolous.”
Well, that goes in Greece too, but only if you say something like “Dimitras stole my goat on the moon”. If you say that he lied on court, the district attorney can’t possibly know if you’re right or wrong, now can he? And on civil courts, yes, you do have the unlimited right to claim whatever you want, be it that Dimitras defamed you or that he sold you a penthouse on the Acropolis. It’s the court’s call, not ours.
“malicious lawsuits, trying to undermine the effective operation of the judicial system at the same time as personally attacking the people who brought a lawsuit which actually resulted in a conviction.”
What does “malicious” mean? Whoever sues someone, thinks he’s right, there’s no “malice” in that. Every lawsuit attacks someone, that’s what it’s supposed to do. The fact that Dimitras testified in a trial that resulted in a conviction doesn’t provide him with immunity of any kind nor is the conviction some sacred cow. It’s usual for witnesses testifying against the defendant to be sued by him for purgery and slander, wouldn’t you do the same if you thought you were innocent? Anyway, there needs to be an open, fair trial for all this (in many many years to come i suppose…). I can’t see why our hostess urges us not to want one and what has the foreign minister to do with all this.
Athanasio: you seem to be rather confused about (a) how justice is supposed to work; and (b) what actually happened in this specific instance.
Generally, most judicial systems would find it most peculiar that the persons who requested that the state prosecute a criminal action which resulted in a criminal conviction should themselves be sued post hoc by the criminal. For example, someone steals your money. You ask the state to investigate, offer all the assistance you can, and the criminal is convicted. Then, the convicted criminal sues you for defamation of character, malicious lies, etc etc. and the court does not throw out his suit as malicious. Does this make sense?
In this specific case, which I will not comment on in detail for fear of my getting involved legally, the lawyers work for an agency which has a long history of protecting human rights in Greece, with many successful cases against the Greek state in the European Courts. This case was brought under the 1979 Greek Law, which previously Greek prosecutors had always refused to implement. The GHM lawyers, and the Jewish community, demanded that Plevris be prosecuted under that law. This prosecution was successful and Plevris was convicted.
Now, where exactly is justice served in permitting these suits against the GHM lawyers and Jewish community? Plevris will serve no prison sentence, and apparently the offending book continues to be sold, so effectively the Greek legal process has achieved nothing. And just to top it all, the people who requested that it should do something are being threatened with physical violence and legal actions.
If it were not so serious, it would be laughable.
@Martin
Confused?
a) i’m a Greek criminal lawyer, b) i was present at the trial.
By the way, this:
“apparently the offending book continues to be sold” reveals a whole lot about the way you think “justice is supposed to work”.
If it were not so laughable, it would be serious.
If a practising lawyer can make the statements above, then people can draw their own conclusions about the Greek system of justice. The law gives the clear impression of being a farce, and so far nobody has managed to convince me otherwise.
I also have some training in law, and some of my published work in used in university law courses across Europe. The fundamental principles of law should be paramount, and Greece is party to most of the Council of Europe treaties and the ECHR. So, why are the outcomes ridiculous in Greece and nowhere else?
But who can actually convince you otherwise Archangel Martin Baldwin-Edwards!!
A double barrel You seem so much above all these trash a true God sent man on a mission with no doubt divine guidance and inspiration! Sent from the ‘heavens’ to us peasant, village idiots, confused, bemused Greeks to teach us the norms of ‘civilised’ life peppered with this trademark Britannic fairness no doubt!
Have you ever attempt to exercise the art of self criticism at all? Or you have tried this and still found yourself superior? Have you ever considered that all you say may be largely common place and in cased flawed and misplaced! Have you ever crossed your mind that your comments for us the ‘village idiots’ may in fact reflect your middle class hollowness and deep inside try to cure a hidden problem of lack of self-confidence and inadequacy and try to step on us to gain height that otherwise not endowed with nor acquired! I am familiar with the peaks and troughs of the Hellenic life much more than you are able to graps! And more to this as I am living in the UK for over 30 years now I am familiar with the same for UK! So I have no problems understanding who you are how you thinking as well as your personal complexions and deficiencies are! If you really all you do is help! Do so QUIETLY EFFICIENTLY with and LOVE! LOVE above ALL! If you cannot do it this WAY GET LOST! Poor Africa Asia or South America may show more admiration for the ‘messiah’ of your kind! Poor poor Africa, Asia and South America how much have you suffered from these racist megalomanic bunch as Mr Martin Baldwin-Edwards!!!!
Let me also tell you that you have not come from the ‘heavens’ as there are not ‘heavens’ on Earth and the place where you come from raised educated and indoctrinated is FAR from been the HEAVENS in any case! But in contrast to you I am not here (UK) Mto profess my virtues knowledge and superiority (which in contrast to you I may actually Posses!) but to work making good through my profession helping sincerely those around me, making things happened do change and GAIN FRIENDS! Many friends!!! And its not easy nor warrantied by the superior qualities of people here either!
Have you understood anything I am saying??? I very much doubt if simple humane thoughts can penetrate the deep Britannic fog you brought with you!!!!
PS
If I havd ever uttered one quarter of the insults to my present hosts that Mr Martin Baldwin-Edwards assumes it is his divine right to spout I would had shown the door and asked to march fast! And I wouldnt balme them for doing so!
“So, why are the outcomes ridiculous in Greece and nowhere else?”
Oh, they are. Irving was imprisoned in Austria and a Jew historian was convicted in France. In Germany art. 86a StGB has led to the conviction of nazis as well as pacifists and anarchists for things they said, they wrote or they chanted. Of course, you know all this, since “you also have some training in law, and some of your published work is used in university law courses across Europe”, you just prefer not to mention it.
Mr. Test, in all fairness to Martin, is there not room for dissent? Since Greece is the birthplace of democracy, I would think that Greek people would embrace the fact that Martin feels free to express his thoughts safely and freely in Greece.
And, also, if you disagree with Martin for his dissenting views on Greece, I wonder what you would think of the very famous Greek journalist named Nick Dimou. His book, “The Misfortune of Being Greek” has sold many, many copies over the years to Greek people. What does that say?
It says to me that many Greeks from the Diaspora are self-deprecating and can laugh at themselves. I don’t see many Greeks in Athens that can laugh at themselves. Personally, as much as I love living in Greece, and enjoy the people, they are just too serious for my taste at times.
Now, I’d like to quote a famous friend of mine who says two things about Greeks and their lack of modesty:
1st: “Those who are unable to laugh at themselves, can rest assured that there will always be someone else to do the job for them”.
2nd: “Greeks are the smartest people in the world. Just ask one of them and they will tell you.”
For those who wish to see Mr. Dimou’s site:
http://www.ndimou.gr/anti_en.asp
Here we have the usual response to intelligent informed criticism of anything Greek. I find it quite normal, George, so don’t worry on my account:-) Concerning the response of Athanasios: I don’t find the outcomes in other EU countries to be ridiculous. Maybe it is because I am not from the Balkans and don’t think in the same way as you. The conviction of Irvine, for example, was perfectly justified: the man has no academic basis for his political opinions, and recanted them when challenged, saying that he was “no expert on the history of the Holocaust”. If he is no expert, then he has no business challenging the intellectual and political orthodoxy which has been the basis of Europe since 1945.
This is in complete contrast with the events in Greece, at least, to my mind.
Martin, let me summarize your opinion, correct if i’m wrong: It’s OK for some people to go to jail for what they write and for what they believe. Books containig such content should not be allowed to circulate. The above condemned should not be allowed to file lawsuits against their prosecutors. The government should interfere with the judiciary in order to achieve the aforementioned goals.
Well, here’s the slightly different opinion of someone who also didn’t come from the Balkans, so you just might understand him better than me:
Je ne suis pas d’accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu’à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire.
Or perhaps he wasn’t “intelligent and informed” and he didn’t respect enough “the intellectual and political orthodoxy which has been the basis of Europe since 1945″, which after all is what is expected unconditionally from all people to do.
I always thought that the gap between Greece and the richer and more civilised countries in this world concerning freedom of speech was that we had less of it. I’m glad that some times we have (or had?) more, even down here in the Balkans.
Indeed you are wrong. The right of the defendant to a fair trial should have been guaranteed by the Greek state. If that was not achieved, his claim is against the Greek state either through an appeal or to ECHR. He can have no claim against the people who asked the Greek state to enforce the Greek law.
It has precisely nothing to do with what you have written, which I find irrelevant to what you are claiming. Indeed, it is PRECISELY that Balkan approach you are advocating: that the law is meaningless — which is acheived either by ignoring it or allowing politics to interfere with its independent operation.
Of course, there is also another good reason why lawyers encourage multiple and counter-lawsuits: money. Pure selfishness.
“The fact that I recognize that there are many ideologies does not mean that I consider them all equally correct. But I consider them all equally legitimate (as long as they remain ideologies”
“Their Fuhrer [of the fascists who beat up Pakistanis in Aegaleo] has the same right to free expression as you and I”
“Racism is a political ideology of some fellow citizens of ours. The fact that they are in a minority (are they?) or that they should be in a minority does not justify state propaganda against them. Since many use examples from the inter-war period, … why not organize also a boycott of the store of the racists, and write ‘racists’ with spray on their window, and aslo force them to wear a black star?”
Athanasios Anagnostopoulos
http://anamorfosis.net/blog/?p=152
——————————————
Plevris trial, 11 September 2007, excerpts:
(http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/uploads/2007_files/ghm932_antievraiki_diki_english.doc)
Prosecutor Leonidas Lazarakos: But [Plevris’ book] is a scholarly manual. (…)
Prosecutor: Do you, as an anti-Nazi, have the right to write a book against the Nazis?
Witness Anna Stai (President of the “Anti-Nazi Initiative”): I have an obligation to write a book against the Nazis.
Prosecutor: Fine. Fine. In your opinion, you have an obligation. And Plevris, in his opinion, has the obligation to write what he wants. Now, would you want a Nazi court to try you and convict you? Or a Nazi state? (…)
Prosecutor: Look here madam. Let me explain something to you: The court is tolerating you. I, myself, cannot tolerate you! If you continue in this fashion I will order your arrest and detention! (…)
Athanasios Anagnostopoulos (hereinafter AA)wrote:
Je ne suis pas d’accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu’à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire.
–Apologies for not writing the following in French, but I bet that Voltaire would turn in his grave were he to find out that hate speech IS a criminal offense in France nowadays. Does that mean that France has forsaken Voltaire? Are the French abandonning their glorious past and assign one of their greatest historical figures to oblivion?
Apart from that, I only have to say that AA’s comments bring once again to the fore the deficiencies of the Greek educational system, of which he undoubtedly is a product: sterile repetition of dicta taken totally out of their cultural and historical context. Heck, I can also picture in my mind the smile of (self)satisfaction on AA’s face when he thought of reproducing Voltaire’s dictum in France.
George
There is plenty of room for dissent but above all plenty of space for CONSTRUCTIVE and well informed burt above all well meaned criticism! Not the sophisticated gossip and the trademark British complexion of intellectual superiority so aptly demonstrated by Messiah MBE! And if archangel MBE has the right to say nonsense with the pompous manner (as I am sure he reads the gospel) …well we have the right to bring the mirror in his face!!! And don’t worry George he will still find his face handsome and angelic! I know very well his type! I almost deal with them on a daily basis. They have a rather thick skin! I can assure you on this! He likes the seas and sands very much possibly mousaka and Greek salad not to mention Kalamata olives and Cretan olive oil! Greece is an excellent place for him if it wasn’t for the Greeks!
Everybody has the right to say and write what he likes and Mr Dimou is no exemption for his dissertation listing the misfortunes of been Greek! He says some right things and plenty of common places! His elevation to the statue he now enjoys by certain circles is not directly related to the quality of his literary work (which for me is rather a mediocrity-without any offence attached!) but what they can make of it! And on this I have to agree with Messiah MBE that many Greeks are indeed thinking and behaving in a very peasant way! If anything else for their unfathomable naivety assuming that self professed and ‘well informed’ messiah actually have kind caring and benevolent intentions! WHICH THEY DON’T!
The sooner we realise this faster we will discriminate the signal from the noise and confusion that MBEs thrives in!
The misfortunes of Greece are directly related to the unacceptable and epidemic nepotism the favouritism and the political cliques (before rightwing and NOW firmly LEFTWING) that reigns supreme over there. This has resulted in lack of innovation zero productivity lack of genuine healthy self confidence and self esteem and among other things has exported individuals like myself (and many many many others alike) abroad and imported the MBEs back in our place!
Aidos Argioi…
test: kindly desist from making personal remarks. You do not even have the guts to put your name here, so show a little respect for those of us who do. I am sorry that you hate the British, but it is not my fault. You know nothing about me, and seem to be agreeing with most of what I have said anyway.
Mr Drowsy
So AA is:
‘sterile repetition of dicta taken totally out of their cultural and historical context. Heck, I can also picture in my mind the smile of (self)satisfaction on AA’s face when he thought of reproducing Voltaire’s dictum in France.’
Can you now Mr Drowsy offer us your interpretation of CORRECT (or revisionist maybe…) cultural and historical context of Voltaire’s words in the present context?
Tell us your opinion on the issue.
Former test
So messiah MBE I hit the sensitive nerve! Wasn’t difficult and I can assure you it was intentional.
Well I will neither making your life any easier nor I will make the convenient to you statesmen by admitting hating the British. I am NOT! I am actually working for the Bitish prosperity for more than 30 years and the well been of my host country and I am doing it far more effectively and sincerely as the likes of you are doing for us the poor peasant Greeks! I also know the feelings of respect loyalty and gratitude far better than pompous individuals like you. But my substantially in depth knowledge of both worlds allow me to see things and exposing double standards especially when I smell the rats of you
..Next time MBE I will brig my passport and a properly authentised birth certificate for your consideration….
JC: Thank you for using your name. My main complaint is that you judge me by the behaviour of others. Feel free to disagree with me, just as I feel free to disagree with anyone. If you want to criticise the UK, fine — in many ways it is a mess there. However, on this blog we usually discuss Greece; maybe this is why you think things look so one-sided.
JC said:
Can you now Mr Drowsy offer us your interpretation of CORRECT (or revisionist maybe…) cultural and historical context of Voltaire’s words in the present context?
You fell for it hook, line and sinker. People keep quoting a dictum not found in any of Voltaire’s writings (see http://www.voltaire.ox.ac.uk/w.....nt_say.pdf)
Not that, naturally enough, I would have expected you to have read anything by Voltaire in order to know this. Heck, I bet that this is only thing you “know” about Voltaire.
You see JC, things are simple: much like what you did in school, you memorised sthng and then kept repeating it as a sort of enchanting (and encahnted) spell. And on top of that, you thing you’re saying sthng clever.
Now do yourself a favour: read about Helvetius and let’s start a serious discussion on censorship, freedom of thought etc.
You see MBE I am here in your home country neither to spend time criticising nor to flash my superior intellectual abilities to impress the hosts and locals. Rather I am spending my time to achieve aims and targets to improve myself those around me and those who trusted me and offered hospitality! I try to do so quietly efficiently and with CARE! Problems exist everywhere and things always need improvements either this is here the UK or down there in Greece. Different things in different places! But rather than arrogantly abuse my hosts showing disrespect and ingratitude assuming the shock therapy works better, if I find something that can be improved I will show them why and how to solve it, according to the best of my knowledge. It is up to them to take upon my suggestion and do something about it if they feel so! I am in general neither more clever nor I know better what is good or not for them!
Of course in this blog you discuss Greece and of course you are entirely entitled to your opinions with whom someone may agree or disagree! On the other hand when this opinions you are expressing bordering or exceeding the threshold of abuse the insult the distortion of reality then brace yourself for the cataclysm that may follow! And although Greece maybe the object of this blog the issues discussed are in many cases of wider interest or even universal. In those cases the sincerity or relevance of opinions for one case may well be judged by the attitudes on similar cases eleswhere. Greece is not a paradise and Greeks are not angels either but both Greece and Greeks notwithstanding the many practical issues existing some chronic some modern is neither Hell nor Daemons albeit peasant ones!
And in many milestones of history both Greece and Greeks practically reacted infinite better than one might expected from the adverse picture of cold statistics and thesis of armchair sociologo-politicians alike!
As far as I am concerned what is needed is to quietly and respectfully choreograph the geography of problems focusing on real issues without gossip type castigation, exorcisms or demonisations and perhaps to come up with practical and tangible steps for solution.
Mr Drowsy
So if I can interpret the largely arrogant reply of yours since you feel that Voltaire did not say this with his own mouth they are no issue for you to reply! My question then is entirety transcendental! A rather childish and pedantic way avoiding giving straight answers I may say! Especially when the attachment you sent clearly indicates that this phrase entirely reflects his attitude! But then again ideas as the one discussed exist in their own right and they would still be valid points of view or references either Voltaire said so or Mr X or Mr Y or none!
And as for the kind of education a fellow commentator may or may not have I would suggest to be a bit more modest when you passed opinions as I can detect a certain lack of judgment! For instance I am in the physical sciences where we never work with dictatums nor have been trained in reciting and memorising. Mother Nature can be very unforgiving to us! We need to exercise judgment in a fair coherent and in many cases innovative way! So if I may, keep your void criticism for the kind of education we received to yourself.
And coming back to the issue at hand Mr Drowsy can you please enlighten us on what you perceive the CORRECT cultural and historical context of Voltaire’s ideas (as he may have said or implied alike) on the issues discussing at present????
John C, OK, I understand about the brain drain that keeps occurring in Greece. People like you leave to enrich the UK, USA, etc.
Well, since we agree on that, why don’t you and your types come back to Greece and petition the government to stop the nonsense and reward and value folks such as yourself.
You need to tell them that you expat Greeks have money to invest and for them to give you reasons as to why you should invest your money in a country which is controlled by the Church and labor unions?
It’s time for the Greeks to mature and hear the hard truth–babying them will not accomplish anything.
I have to give Mr. Karamanlis credit as I believe he has addressed the brain drain where others seem to treat it as the invisible 400 lb gorilla.
Greeks of the Diaspora (like you John C.) have the power in your wallets.
I have been away from this blog for the last few days (as you might have noticed) and have been unable to comment. It has been an extremely difficult time for personal reasons some of which I might explain in a later post. Apologies for not involving myself in this discussion.
I think that we can safely say that everyone here is educated (to varying degrees perhaps) but that the level of that education has no bearing on this or any of the discussions here. We are all capable of thinking and of having opinions. The way the comments here have descended to the level of personal sniping at people’s intelligence is not helpful and is, in fact, rude and disrespectful. Can we move on from that ?
In an attempt to bring the discussion back to the issue at hand, I do want to say that this urgent action has been brought by international human rights bodies because people are being threatened and abused for bringing (and winning) this lawsuit.
The issue at the heart of the case was not about freedom of speech but about hate speech and incitement to violence. And now the people who brought the case to court are being threatened and attacked. As I stated in a previous post, Plevris has published another book with the addresses of the activists who were involved. This is extremely dangerous and frightening and I think is illegal in itself (Panayote can probably tell us for sure).
The YouTube video that was posted and the threatening comments that followed was also illegal.
There are laws in place to protect ALL of us from this type of situation and I think it is urgent that we stand up to ensure that these protections are not undermined.
JC: As you no longer live in Greece, perhaps you have forgotten how things work here. Of course, ideally one makes a sincere and respectful contribution to one’s country of residence. What happens in Greece, is that nobody is interested in such things: everyone likes to shout his/her importance, everyone claims to be an expert on everything, there is no respect for expertise or skills…. This is Greece. In telling people on this blog what I think of their behaviour and racist attitudes, in very clear and blunt terms, I am behaving like a Greek not like a Brit. I had to learn HOW to do this when I first came to live in Greece, and it has nothing to do with my origins or nationality. It is how people behave, regrettably.
I will not say much on the issue that the original piece meant to discuss, simply because I do not want to seem to tolerate the methods used by some of the contributors. All I will say here, is that hate speech or opinions of this sort should be punished only if they cause harm or risk to cause harm to specific individuals (even a relatively broad group of them) and the actor (the speaker, writer etc) either aimed at this harm/threat or predicted and accepted it. However, and despite the fact that I have written repeatedly on the issue, I will simply comment on some points raised by others and not offer my arguments for this position. I will not do so for the following reasons.
Firstly, I have never felt that I should provide a CV merely to utter an opinion on a blog and, of course, I will not do so in this case. Secondly, I fail to see what good an argument would do: how can you discuss with people who discredit others merely on the grounds that they are Greek, have had a Greek education, live in the Balkans etc. Thirdly, I am duty-bound to protest against such blind prejudice and never tolerate this sort of behaviour. In addition, I find this attitude rather sad: the educated people I know do not argue by providing links to a University of Oxford website as a proof of advanced scholarship, offering arguments from authority because ‘I have written books’ and recycling pathetic stereotypes that do not differ, in principle, from a Plevris-like belief that ‘all Jews are sub-human’. In this case, of course, it is we Greeks that are not intelligent and educated enough to discuss with Drowsy.
And I can’t help wondering, my friends, what kind of free speech you have in mind. Plevris cannot speak against the Jews because he is contaminated with prejudice and ignorance and his views are unpleasant and insulting to the Jews. Indeed they are, but were we to put in jail anyone whose views met these criteria Drowsy might be a very good candidate for imprisonment. So would anyone who openly speaks against short or bald people: his views would be equally stupid and both short and bald peoples’ feelings would be hurt. In addition, it would also be a sign of bad character: one should not judge people form their religion, nationality, looks etc. However, his speech would not be as unpleasant as Plevris’ to the rest of us and this is why no one thinks that fitness instructors who criticize junk food eaters should be punished. So, it seems to me that you seek to ban opinions that you find unpleasant rather than inaccurate or offensive - unless, of course, you are seriously proposing to ban anti-shortness speech! I suggest that if we wish to live in a tolerant society we will need to speak against these views yet not ban them, so long as they do not cause harm. In conclusion, I find both Plevris’ and Drowsy’s views profoundly prejudiced and their attitude offensive but would not tolerate their prosecution.
ΚΚ,
You dont get it. By a long shot.
One would expect that someone who refers to a quote has checked to whom it’s attributed, whether he / she said it or not. My guess is that you (and others) just memorised the phrase somewhere between the 2nd Junior High and 2nd Senior High School and then locked it in your head, only to recall it in the context of any discussion that appears germane.
In short, people who think that this is an important phrase but do not go at any legnth to further investigate it strike up as, well, thick. How can one say that this phrase is dear to him but not make an even half-arsed effort to locate it. A very simple example: DD’s motto as it appears on the top of her page, is ofter attributed to Endmund Burke. The minute I read it, I was stunned so naturally (for me but not you) I sought to find out more about him, his work and particularly the text where he had written that quote. I quickly found out that the quote was falsely attributed to him. And you know, now with the internets, it’s soooo simple.
But let me get down all dirty and personal: suppose that I write and publish a text about you. Suppose that in the text, I say that my impression of your family is that all of you are a bunch of no-good doers, that your father has never worked a day in his life but took advantage of other people and that’s how he good rich and that therefore you’re bound to be the same since the apple falls under the apple tree. Suppose that I sent this letter to your employer who then fires you. Confronted with the above, I merely say to you that this is what I think about you because eg you have a blog and you regularly post on it even on business hours, meaning you’re slacking off your work.
To boot, I publish a short porn comic book relating to Jesus. In my comic book, I portray Jesus as a homosexual who has sexual intercourse with various persons. Naturally enough, the comic strips vividly depict these encounters.
Let me know where you would draw the line for freedom of expression. Just to make it easy, I am not including a host of other parameters. Suppose for example that in scenario A) my comic book is published but then a group of zealots comes over and burns it (and me in the process) with the police idly standing by and B) a court, after a trial where I was given all possible means of defending myself, orders the seizure and burning of my book.
So MBE you had become a ‘Greek’ then! That’s fine provided that besides the survival transformation there is also the love bit to go with it! This will suffice as far as I am concerned and I need to make no further case!
Drowsy in an attempt to impress the audience and further castigate the inferior education of the rest that dare to disagree with him made a salad of things and sophistries! Or is it just a clumsy manoeuvre to escape from a stiff corner?
I am not in the legal profession so don’t jump to castigate my education on this! I have got none! But to my small mind Laws are made for the good of the people as individuals within the society they are immersed in. The freedom of expression from this point of view has to be correlated with the truth or a sincere quest for it, natural rights, good intentions and the benefit of society at large. Many of these elements may well be self evident other may evolve as societies evolve and the boundaries of acceptable need to redefined and adapt!
For you case (A) you obviously have violated the natural right bit people as individuals not necessarily bounded by what their parent were! So your case is dead!
As for case (B) what were your intentions? Want just to make others feel miserable and unhappy? Or was it to challenge established thoughts that may well violate the natural rights of others. Is it true in any case?
I am sure Jesus would had forgiven you if you thought with your own free you did something wrong and I am not so sure that would had forgiven all those who threatened you and not turning the other chin!
Case of Plevris on the Jewish Book.
Who is Plevris and his 4th August Political formation rather than a fringe remnant of the past as colourful and bizarre as other fruits that parade the Greek political scene as the Hunters Party, Ouranio Toxo, The Fishermen’s Party, The Golfers, OSE, OAKE and the rest! How many other than a handful of pathetic existences listening to him and taking him seriously! He has no more credit than Leventis and Nakratzas and Co even though this entire colourful bunch strives very hard to be taken seriously! People may find his writing offending! I can very well understand them why! But what the reaction chosen resulted may indeed has elevate him to a level not only he does not deserve but also at a level that he himself may never imagined! Although it may have been their right of those self appointed knights of Human Rights to choose this course, in practical terms may have been a blunder of immense proportion! Here we have it Mr Plevris the archangel and martyr of Human Rights! How stupidly bizarre! In practical terms to my opinion two should had the options of reaction: (A) Ignore him! (B) Confront him straight forwardly in the field he chose: Provide the ample counter evidence confront him with this face to face! Defeat him fairly and straightforwardly. Why this course of action was not chosen perplexes me! Either those who professionally shout for ‘Human Rights’ don’t have the guts or even worse don’t have the knowledge! If they had choose this course its should had been easy-peasy to fatally discredit him saving in between some trees that would be freshly sacrificed as trophies for his apparent ‘victory’ in terms of increased circulation for his collection of revisionist nonsense he call books! Or is it due to the rising petrol prices and these can serve as an alternative low cost fuel for the remaining cold winter days?
“In short, people who think that this is an important phrase but do not go at any legnth to further investigate it strike up as, well, thick.”
funny i never thought that it is elementary to find the original author of some phrase to understand it properly.
I also never knew that “thick” is a synonym for “not knowing a name”. I guess if someone (like Ramanujan) is a genius in mathematics but doesnt know Euclid’s or Euler’s name, then according to you he is “thick”. Interesting concept. How do you call someone who knows the guy’s name, but doesn’t know how he looks like? Semi-thick? If i know the names and CVs of all Nobel prize laureates, does this make me some kind of non-thick super-scientist?
PS ok Im sorry for the excursus, i just had to answer to this…