Women on Mount Athos
Published by deviousdiva January 11th, 2008 in Women.Following my post about the demonstration at Mount Athos, I did a bit of research into the subject and came across this YouTube video. The comments that follow are typical of discussions of this type.
Can I also remind people that the demonstration by the local residents was focused on the illegal land seizure. but it has succeeded to bring the issue of women being allowed to visit Mount Athos to the public arena. These are separate issues. This from Balkan Travellers
The female protesters jumped over the fence in defiance of the ban, which is upheld by the Greek constitution. The group was reportedly part of around 1,000 demonstrators who oppose claims by several of the monasteries to around 20,000 acres of land on the Halkidiki peninsula, Reuters reported.
Local mayors and residents of different Halkidiki villages dispute the monasteries’ large real estate portfolio outside the Mount Athos borders, which includes hotels and land on Halkidiki and other assets in the Greek capital Athens and in Thessaloniki
I also found this article in the Guardian from 2002 by Sean Thomas.
If you do sail down the coast, you might notice that many of the 20-odd monasteries - populated by just over 2,000 monks - are looking sprucer than they have done for centuries. This is because they are being lavishly refurbished with EU funds. As a result of the EU’s largesse, most of the monasteries now have plumbing, electricity, and shiny new balconies.
This EU involvement has created controversy. Questions have recently been asked by MEPs as to how Athos can now justify its gender discrimination. Various MEPs have even threatened to take the monks to court unless they abandon their centuries-old strictures. The next few years will show whether the Athonite authorities have the will to hold on to their arrangements
This for me is one of the problems I see with many of the issues arising in Greece. The country accepts millions of euros in funds from the EU for improvements and infrastructure (of which a good deal seems to “go missing”) and then turns around and flaunts the laws set by it. Seriously, you can’t just benefit from the money and ignore the rules, can you ?
In the article, Thomas writes about the temptation that the monks might suffer if they were to catch a glimpse of a woman. He doesn’t attempt to ask what happens when the monks are tempted by the sight of a man. I guess he just assumed that they wouldn’t ? He asks
But what is it like never to look at a woman? Hector gazes across some olive groves at the sapphire Aegean: “Well, actually, once every few years, one or two monks may indeed see a woman. Sometimes, you understand, women come to the beach here, for an adventure. It is illegal, but they come swimming. They wear bikinis, and then… then is difficult for us
He concludes his article with this
Leaving Athos, it is difficult not to have mixed feelings. Yes, its extraordinary laws are discriminatory. Yes, the region is a ridiculous anachronism in a world that has, for the most part, swept away such egregious misogyny. And yet, and yet. In a way Athos is a kind of courageous test, a brave, ridiculous, 1,000-year-old experiment to see what the world would be like without the destabilising effect of sexual desire. And so perhaps we should allow the Athonite monks just a few more centuries in their strange, unreal, pristinely beautiful laboratory
Well, I think Alexia Amvrazi answers some of the issues that Thomas is grappling with in this article A Woman in Mount Athos.
Technorati: greece, mount athos, women, european union
DD, I really enjoyed this post, and thanks for sharing your research. Mount Athos has p***ed me off for years, probably ever since Prince Charles started going there.
I don’t have any objection to men shutting themselves away in monasteries and trying to overcome all their desires, including their sexual desires. I am open to the idea that they might in so doing come closer to God, though I am also not sure that I can see the point of lots of people doing it when there are so many other practical things they could be doing in the world. After all, if I objected to male monasteries I would have to object to female convents. I object to neither.
What really really p***es me off though is the smugness of the men who’ve been there, and the myth that is maintained that there is more spirituality there than will be found in any similar female establishment, as if men have some God-given super highway to closeness with him that women cannot reach. And why the EU should give it money I will never understand.
When I was working as a solicitor, all my male partners used to go off to their private (all male) memebers’ club for lunch. Most of them also belonged to the rugby club, the cricket club, and were old boys of some all- boys school, and my senior partner was the chief Mason. That’s how business was done. I suppose I see Mount Athos as just another one of those male clubs. For those that live there, there may be some benefit in excluding women, but for all those who simply visit, hoping to find God, I think they would be just as likely to find him in a mixed congregation, or in the smile of their child.
The whole thing is very tedious and emblematic of what is wrong with Greece — obsessed with a false picture of the past and denying any reality to the present. “Original Sin” is the problem…laughable, really. What is amazing is that European taxes are funding this with no accountability for the money spent.
I am an atheist, and have very strong anti-religious feelings. for me ALL religious traditions are nothing more than irrational and ridiculous. In that sense I cannot see why we should focus on this particular one. It is very simple. If you call yourself an eastern orthodox woman then you believe in an interpretation of the scriptures offered by orthodox theologians, and among other things, you accept that you cannot go into the “iero”, take communion when you have your period etc. so you probably accept avaton as well. if you are not an orthodox woman, then why would you want to go there anyway ? sightseeing ?
I am not well versed on the property status of the agion oros, but if the whole thing is indeed considered monastery property (and not some sort of state concession) then I think there is no legal issue here. they can do whatever they want.
I have very strong issues with church property in greece, and to me that is the only significant point in this case, because remember that these women started this as a protest against land claims OUTSIDE mount athos. in athens alone, there are some very hot-environmental-potato issues with church property, such as moni pentelis and kareas to name but a few. this is what we should be focusing on, and not the gay retreat that is mount athos.
as the lady in the video said, as a taxpayer I do not want my money to go somewhere I am not allowed to. However, I think the solution to the problem would be for my money not to go there, not me trying to break in. to paraphrase groucho marx(or was it woody allen ?), I would not want to be in a club that doesn’t accept me as a member.
It was Groucho
thanx martin
“Seriously, you can’t just benefit from the money and ignore the rules, can you ?”
Yes you can. Just think of illigal immigrants. And it is not against the rules as you falsely and malignly attest. It is part of Greek tradition for centuries and enshrined in the national constitution which takes precedence over EU directives.
This is a concern for the Greek Orthodox and you are neither. Learn Greek, convert and then we can have a discussion. Untill then your opinion is at best irrelevant and at worst offensive and patronizing.
You can try looking for laws more to your liking in one of the crime ridden, morally bankrupt and imperialist countries of your own culture before you dare criticize the Greeks. We are an older and wiser civilisation than you and that we have endured so long should be testament enough to the value of our traditions.
We are happy to have legal immigrants and extend them full rights under law but no varvaros is going to dictate to Romioi their own traditions. You are citizens of Greece not Greeks yourselves. Hence you presume too much if you think you can dictate to the people who built this country as a home for the Greek people and a refuge for their culture that they should now abandon the later.
Diva, is not interested learning or living in Greek culture. She comes to a country and expects it to bend to her rules rather than the other way around.
A couple of centuries ago European powers did the same in Africa.
“We are an older and wiser civilisation than you and that we have endured so long should be testament enough to the value of our traditions.”
and
“no varvaros is going to dictate to Romioi their own traditions.”
We have had this discussion elsewhere on the blog: if you idiots think that you are the direct descendants of Ancient Greeks, you need to get a mental health examination. On modern history, I should point out to you that the country of Greece was created with the direct and vital support of the European Great Powers. They did not colonise Greece, except as a bulwark against Turkey, perhaps. Show a little gratitude to the civilisations which supported you in the struggle for independent statehood, rather than characterising our countries as “Barbaros”. This is ridiculous anyway, as historically the term refers to North Africa and not the UK, France, Germany etc. The arrogant propaganda spouted by Greeks really is tiresome.
Martin, you sound excited! Calm down there little buddy. All 178cm!
Barbaros was a generic term used for any non-Greek person who could not speak Greek and partake in Greek culture. Also, it was not a derogrotary term.
“We have had this discussion elsewhere on the blog: if you idiots think that you are the direct descendants of Ancient Greeks, you need to get a mental health examination”
I would like to say that I am surprised at the temerity and vileness of people who on the one hand claim to lecture Greeks on racism and on the other spout this kind of antihellenic and racist assertions.
I won’t however since that would be lying.
BTW could someone post a link to that discussion the antihellenist is refering to? Thanks.
John or Legein, do you actually live in Greece?
The reason I ask is that it’s easy for armchair playmaker Greeks from the diaspora to spout how great Greece is while living high on the hog in one of the “morally bankrupt countries” like the USA or the UK. Those hyphenated Greek types forget that even the local Greeks make fun of them. The commercial for the candy “OH MAMY” comes to mind for those that have seen the commercial on Greek TV here in Athens.
I’m sure Diva can see your IP addresses and confirm if you do live in Greece, but I suspect you don’t. Your English is too good!
George,
I wasn’t aware this blog practiced spying on its visitors and it certainly won’t speak very highly for its democratic credentials should it do so. I doubt that the owner will thank you for making this suggestion. To answer your question I live in Greece. Thank you for your comment on my English though.
You might find it surprising but Greeks have always placed a high cultural premium on education and today Greeks are one of the best educated ethnic groups in the world. I understand that you might find it surprising and I presume this has something to do with the varvaroi perception of Greeks and in particular that of western non-Greeks. The West first defined itself as “west” in opposition to the Greek “east” and has pretty much retained its antihellenism ever since.
As for the moral bankruptsy of the UK and US I really wasn’t even aware the use of this characterization would be contentious when applied to two of the world’s wealthiest nations murdering hundreds of thousands and displacing millions of poor civilians in order to acquire the wealth of the country they resided in. Clearly we seem to have somewhat diverging notions of morallity.
Yet more propaganda: “Greeks are one of the best educated ethnic groups in the world”. Where did this nonsense come from? The official Greek state data show the educational level of the Greek population to be broadly similar to other Balkan countries, although slightly better educated than Albanians, and well below those of western Europe. The younger age cohorts have a higher proportion with university education, but as it is mostly Greek universities that provided it, the standard is fairly low.
The answer to your question, George, is that these two are doubtless from the over-privileged Greek class and have been educated overseas. There are nationalists everywhere, and the quality of their English is not a guide to their political views.
John, your choice of words and your style makes me think of someone who lives in the USA or at least spent time there. But, I have to tell you that I found comment that you mentioned humorous. You said you don’t want to discuss Athos with a person until they learn Greek, and convert.
Well, I say the same things to local Greeks when they try to discuss US Foreign policy with me. I tell them that I don’t discuss US politics with individuals who are not US tax payers.
According to the EIU report which places Greece 8th for highest percentage of tertiary enrolment for the relevant age group, at 74%. The corresponding figure for the UK is 64% ranked 16th. That is not exactly “well below those of western Europe”.
The first secular university in Europe was founded in Constantinople in the 5th c. and the City housed Greek secular institutes of higher learning until the fall of the City to the Ottomans in the15th c. By comparison Oxford was founded in the 11th c and even then as a theocratic institution.
It is not surprising that the west is unaware that almost all Greek classics that survive today were preserved by the Greeks themselves and they were only introduced to most of them starting in the 13th c. when some were looted from Constantinople during the western colonisation of the Roman empire and when Greek scholars moved to Italy in the 14th and15th setting of the rebirth of classical learning in the west or Renaissance. Interestingly the Parthenon was used as a church and was the third most important Greek pilgrimage until the 15th century when the Ottomans closed it down. It was only reduced to its present state in the 17th c. when a westerner bombarded it and later when another removed most of its sculptures in the 18th.
A crowd had gathered around, watching and laughing, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_.....194136.stm
Is this morally bankrupt or just temporarily insolvent?
BTW what is your opinion on the Greek Genocide guys, do you think it really happened?
“Well, I say the same things to local Greeks when they try to discuss US Foreign policy with me. I tell them that I don’t discuss US politics with individuals who are not US tax payers.”
That is quite lame but I am not unreasonable and will concede the point. So I agree that if and when the Greek monks of Athos embark on large scale murder sprees it will be fair for you to comment on the issue as well. Untill then give me a break.
Your statistics are for age cohort, and do not mean a lot. The UK has always had a low proportion with higher education, but very significant achievements of the minority who benefited from it. The total population statistics are important, and Greeks have generally consisted of a large proportion with incomplete schooling. This is particularly true of women, who were denied access to even basic education. Greece continues to pay a high price for the folly of this sexist mentality in recent history.
Insofar as the “greek genocide” is concerned, I have no idea what you are talking about. I can only imagine that this is the latest attempt to copy the Armenians [who do have a strong claim to that] simply because Greeks refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. It is always convenient to blame others for misfortunes.
COMMENT DELETED BY DEVIOUS DIVA
John, you put a requirement in place that if someone wants to talk to you about Athos, that you request that they speak Greek, and covert. My point is that it’s not unlike what I request of Greeks who want to weigh in with their “conspiracy theory” views on US foreign policy. My requirement is for them to be US tax payers so that at least we are on a level playing field.
I don’t see how stating that Monks need to be mass murderers play in this discussion, or bringing up some random act of violence in the UK. Don’t forget that random acts of violence occur everywhere in the world, including Greece.
Again, I am almost positive you are a Greek-American, or have taken advantage of the American education system. Come on now, your use of the English language is not consistent with the typical Greek “Frontistira English” which populates the Lekanopedio.
George
Your point rested on what is called a false analogy and I had hoped that was made clear. The UK and US’ interventions around the world affect everyone and hence legitimize and invite comment. By comparison a closed monastic Greek Orthodox community hardly interacts with the outside world, that’s the whole point, and doesn’t force its will on anyone outside their border.
Similarly you could complain about the fact that Greek Orthodox take precedence in visit permits or that only Orthodox are allowed to live there permanently and then only as monks or in Karyes or that only Orthodox are allowed to perform liturgy.
Again no one forces anybody to become or remain Greek Orthodox and if any such take issue with some position or doctrine they are free to either seek to change that position within the church or join another one.
As regards the incident I linked to again you missed the point even though I took care to quote it above the link. It is not the actions of one, probably disturbed, individual that are criticised but those of the gathered crowd that stood and watched, laughing, as a dying human was desecrated.
Commenting on what the genocide denialist wrote
Until the 13th century the Greeks were literate at a much higher percentage than Westerners in whose lands literacy was confined to the clergy. After the destruction of their state by Westerners and Turks this trend was reversed and Greeks only again achieved parity in the mid-twentieth century.
“This is particularly true of women, who were denied access to even basic education”
The assertion on Greek women’s education is wrong. Quoting from the UN in Greece women’s share of tertiary enrolment is a slim majority of 51% and while it is lower than the UK (57%) that is because the British are pursuing university education at much lower rates than Greeks. Additionally a much higher percentage of Greek women get a university education than their British counterparts.
Tertiary gross enrolment ratio (M/F) and women’s share
Greece 2005 95 83 51
United Kingdom 2005 70 50 57
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/Dem...../tab4d.htm
A 2001 UNstats survey across all age cohorts found that 46% of third level educated citizens in Greece are women while the ratio is 48% for secondary education. The same 2001 survey in Germany found 38% and 50% respectively.
vol.2 table 3
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/Dem.....ybcens.htm
The only serious discrepancy is in less than primary education and even then only in the older age groups (above 50)where (a) longer lived women predominate numerically reflecting a time when poverty and war reduced opportunities for schooling (b) there was indeed a tendency to allocate scarce school funds to male children first. It in no way reflects a conscious decision on the part of Greek parents not to educate their daughters when they had the opportunity to do so, much less on the part of Greeks themselves.
“Where did…(more hatefull tripe)…well below those of western Europe”
School life expectancy (in years). Primary to tertiary education
Norway 2005 18
Greece 2005 17
Netherlands 2005 17
Belgium 2005 16
Switzerland 2005 15
Bulgaria 2005 13
Croatia 2003 13
Albania 2004 11
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/Dem.....cation.htm
Again Greeks seem to be educated on par if not better than most Westerners and significantly better than other Balkan people. This is a result of both economic factors (communist economic past in the rest of the Balkans) and cultural (e.g. Switzerland, Belgium are much wealthier than Greece yet lag). It is also interesting to note that even in Ottoman times the people within the empire most active in the fields of education and trade were the Greeks.
To the owner:
I don’t see how genocide denial and antihellenism as exhibited by one of your guests square in with promoting human rights. You might almost say they are mutually exclusive.
Unless you are a specialist in economic statistics, I politely advise you to stick to your profession. What you have written above is meaningless and amateurish, and shows a lack of understanding at best, and a determination to propagandise at worst.
Furthermore, you show a typical Greek peasant mentality, which has no respect for knowledge or real learning, but manipulates it for political purposes. I am not interested to engage in debate with arrogant idiots, especially when you attribute serious scholarship with “anti-Greekness” etc. Again, a typical feature of semi-educated Greeks who think they know it all. Very tedious.
This is typicall antihellenic rhetoric. Some mentally challenged person speaks out of his ass bringing no data to substantiate his hatefull claims and then expect to be taken seriously when he dismisses the data I brought from the UN statistics agency because they clearly disprove his stupid assertions and don’t conform to his prejudices.
At any rate I am hardly going to waste more time debating the kind of bigots this place seems to attract. Anyone who reads these posts will be able to ascertain for themselves who is speaking rationaly and discussing facts and who is motivated by bigotry and hate, things that of course cannot be substantiated with facts.
Indeed, people will decide for themsleves. I do not have prejudices about these things, because I am not a Greek and do not think like that. I am a professional who looks for accuracy and reality. Do not judge others by your own low standards.
You might care to read the official statistics that I compile for governments, the UN and academic purposes. You might also note that I give my real name and anyone with half a brain can check what my credentials are. You, on the other hand, have the name “John”. Who are you? Are you qualified to speak on these issues? No, quite clearly. So, stop your offensive rant and leave intelligent educated people here alone.
“I do not have prejudices about these things, because I am not a Greek”
This is in fact an oxymoron, which is rather fitting since you have proven to posess the qualities of both an ox and a moron. It just goes to show that you are a bigoted mentally small man who exhibits the typical racism and antihellenism that has always characterized people of a certain mentality in the West.
“and do not think like that”
You have so far failed to present any evidence that you think at all.
As for your appeals to authority (namely your own) these are predicated on the authority being there in the first place and in your case this is clearly abesnt. You are a johny come lately who only started studying economics by what, age thirty? A joke! According to your CV you don’t even have a masters degree let alone a Phd like I do and you are almost twice my age!!
You are a paid hack pushing political agendas for various think tanks. That is politics in the guise of scholarship,no wonder you are so quick to accuse others of abusing data for propaganda, you assume everyone is engaged in the same enterprise as you. Protomyristis kai protoklastis!!
You uneducated little creature, no wonder you are so arrogant and aggresive, you are hiding your academic nakedness and vile antihellenism and racism behind the gross and anxious arrogance of the trully incompetent.
I can’t believe I wasted my time with this person!!
Diva, John asked “To the owner: I don’t see how genocide denial and antihellenism as exhibited by one of your guests square in with promoting human rights. You might almost say they are mutually exclusive.”
Do you have anything to say?
Interesting that someone anonymous feels able to insult me with so much venom, and also so interesting that he dwells on degree awards. Very Greek. Do you think that anyone cares about PhDs other than idiots? And a personal attack on me for changing my career at 30: now why would this be an issue? Just something nasty to say, I suppose? Generally, you seem to be a very nasty piece of work.
When you publish something useful, or actually create something, tell us. This is what is missing from Greek so-called education, where you pontificate about how clever you are and actually do nothing. For the record, I and the rest of the world have no interest in your self-evaluation. What counts is reputation and the value of scholarship: it is clear that you have nothing interesting to say, just vile Greek propaganda.
To legein: nobody on this blog has denied the Jewish genocide, although you have defended the writings of anti-Semites and holocaust deniers. If you are referring to the attempt by Greek nationalists to rewrite history and cast Greeks as the innocent victims of the “nasty Turks”, then most historians will disagree with this revisionism. As indeed do I.
John, so, you are saying that with your comparison that until the Monks in Athos are mass murderers then they are not on an even footing with the US/UK who supposedly murder with their foreign policy. Did I get it now? I guess I don’t agree with that one since I support the US/UK governments and don’t think what they are doing in Iraq or elsewhere is wrong.
Now, as far as complaining about the UK situation where the bystanders just stood by and watched, unfortunately this is not only unique to the UK, but rather (again unfortunately) connected to human nature. I’ve seen the same thing in Greece quite often, seeing people lying on the street near Omonoia and no one bats an eye to see if these people need assistance either.
I guess overall, I don’t agree with you. But, there is room for all opinions; However, why do you have to be so mean to Martin. My wise old grandma always said, “If you have to rant and rave to prove your point, then maybe you are not as confident yourself with your views”. Just a little grandma sense and she didn’t have a PhD.
To Martin: I was pleasantly suprised to see your name in the Athens News today as an honored guest of the Athens News 50 year party.
You lucky guy! I only wish I could hobnob with the rich and famous! Do tell, was it a nice event, good food?
Diva, if this is off topic I do apologize.
George: I was equally surprised to see my name there! The food was excellent, by the way: brought in small quantities throughout the evening, and ashed down with champagne all evening.
THe issue of bystanders doing nothing is part of urbanisation or modernisation — a highly unwelcome aspect of it — and emerged most clearly in the UK in the 1980s, in my experience. It is now happening in Greece, too.
ON the issue of someone attacking me for not having done a student degree: this is typical of a conformist culture, where everyone is supposed to follow the same routine. This idiot could also see from the old CV of mine on the internet, that I held university appointments from graduation almost, and was a PhD examiner at Cambridge University. But, he chooses to focus on what suits him polically — much as politicians do when campaigning. This is a hallmark of Greek culture — one which is highly damaging to the society and effectively impedes genuine progress and creativity. Formalism is the friend of conservatism, and these Greek nationalists are all obsessed with the past and without any hope in the future. Very petty.
Once again the discussion has derailed into an argument about who is cleverer than who and is full of personal attacks (again) and not helpful or interesting to anyone. I have been away the last few days and only managed to have a proper check here today.
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