Plevris Trial
Published by deviousdiva December 5th, 2007 in Anti-Semitism.From the Associated Press
Greek far-right historian on trial over allegedly anti-Jewish book
ATHENS, Greece (AP) - A far-right Greek historian went on trial Tuesday for allegedly inciting racial hatred with a book that denies the Holocaust took place and allegedly contains offensive references to Jews. Jewish community leaders testified at an Athens court that the book by Costas Plevris “The Jews: The whole truth” has led to a spike in attacks on Jewish monuments in the country.
“After the book was published, attacks against Jewish sites increased” said Moses Constantini, head of the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece.
The trial, Greece’s first for inciting racial hatred, was adjourned until Dec. 13. On trial together with Plevris are the publisher, the editor and a journalist on a small right-wing magazine that published extracts from the book.
Benjamin Albalas, head of the Jewish Community of Athens, said the book “incites violence … and encourages people to kill us”
Defense lawyers said their clients were being persecuted for freely expressing their views.
There is a very distinct difference between expressing your views and inciting violence. Some extracts from the book are quoted in Kathimerini
The Nazis were well aware of the Jewish plans and decided, as I describe elsewhere, to remove the Jews from Europe. And they acted quite rightly, in my opinion. Ridding Europe of Jews is mandatory, because Judaism is a threat to the freedom of nations
Jew (by religion) and human are contradictory meanings; one rules out the other
That’s what the Jews need. That’s all they understand. To the firing squad within 24 hours. Wake up. The perfidious Jews are digging the grave of nations. Wake up and throw them in as they deserve
You tell me. Isn’t he calling for Jews to be killed ? If you can see any other interpretation of these comments, please let me know. There has been much debate about whether this case should go to trial at all. From Kathimerini
In the case of Costas Plevris’s book, there was much discussion about whether it should go to court. What counted in the end, according to criminologist Avi Nahmias, was that there was no question of the book being withdrawn from circulation, as there is no such provision in Greek law.
The book, which has been extensively promoted by LAOS deputy Adonis Georgiadis, does not stand up to serious criticism. The court case arose more from the need for some kind of an official response, to map out just what can and can’t be done in a democracy. What also mattered to those who took legal action was to reactivate the forgotten 1979 law prohibiting racism.
The Anti-Nazi Initiative, Human Rights Watch and the Central Jewish Council of Greece (KIS) eventually decided to go to court. And they were vindicated when they found themselves in an unexpected battle. At the first hearing (adjourned until today), the bench was hostile and prosecution witnesses Anna Stai and Irini Koutelou faced the pro-Plevris bias of prosecutor Spyridonas Mouzakitis, who insisted on stressing what he called the scientific character of Plevris’s book. Was he unaware that some of the so-called truths in the book include “biological” characterizations of Kofi Annan and other blacks, Jews, Gypsies and non-Greeks?
At this new trial, Greek Jews have stepped up to express their side of the story.
One who will certainly be among them is Vetta Mioni. A war child, she had the extraordinary experience of seeing on the list of people invited to her wedding many years later the name of the person who informed on her father and sent him to Auschwitz.
Her father perished there, in the place which Plevris comments in his book “is rightly maintained in good condition,” to which the president of the judges at the first trial, Efrosyni Tselehovitou remarked, “Why don’t they just build new ones?”
Mioni doesn’t want to speak at the trial. She doesn’t want be treated as a victim. But she wants to be there, as a face against anti-Semitic hysteria, and as a part of history, because anti-Semitism has a history on this continent. Many observers believe it is coming back, in a different form. That comes out when new acquaintances say to Mioni: “Really? Are you Jewish? You don’t look it.” “And I think,” said Mioni, “first, that they’re saying that as a compliment, and second, what do they think Jews are like?’
In another article in Kathimerini, Mioni speaks about the Greek Catholic priest who helped her family in hiding and about the Nazi collaborator who was responsible for giving up her father and later turned up on the guest list of her wedding.
As a young girl in Thessaloniki in 1944, she couldn’t understand how her grandfather, gynecologist Moisis Matalon, suddenly lost the respect of the townspeople. The family became hostages in the Hirsch ghetto.
Luckily her grandfather found a way out. Her father, mother, sister, grandfather and his other daughters caught a caique to Piraeus. From there they scattered to other houses in Athens and Argos.
“We stayed in Athens, where we had the good fortune to be taken under the wing of Father Chrysostomos, a Greek Catholic priest. He was in the resistance and he helped us with his network. Although we were Jews, we girls went to the Greek-French school. Life went on, in hiding and in great fear, but it went on. Until one day my father didn’t come home. He had bumped into a merchant from Thessaloniki who was a collaborator of the Germans, an avowed Nazi, who had moved to Athens, to Neo Iraklion. He denounced my father at once. They tortured him to see who had hidden him; the next day they came for my mother. She came back alone from Auschwitz.”
Her father tried to make sure the informer’s name would not be forgotten. Apart from what he told his wife, he wrote the name down on a scrap from a paper bag. Just the two words, name and surname.
Mioni saw that piece of paper and saw the name again years later. “When I saw the name of that particular family on the list of guests to my wedding, I was astounded. I asked my husband about it. The informer’s son was an acquaintance of his. He couldn’t believe what that man had done to me. I later learned that the wife of another Jew was one of his victims. I discovered that he had left Greece with the Germans and lived abroad until the amnesty proclaimed by Plastiras’s government, then came back. He had become a factory manager in Neo Iraklion.”
Is it hard to live in a city in which such things took place? “At one point I couldn’t stand it, and telephoned him. He realized who I was; he knew from the cancellation of the wedding invitation. ‘How can you live and laugh after what you did?’ I asked him. He cursed me, vulgarly, and said vile things about soap and who knows what else.”
Another person who will be there, Rafael Varsano, found solidarity from an unexpected place. From Kathimerini
The letter arrived at the office of Rafael Varsano like any other letter, without delay. Varsano had written an article that appeared in Kathimerini on October 8 in relation to the trial involving Plevris’s book. Despite his advanced years, he was determined to come to Athens, to the appeals court hearing. He wanted to say, “I’m here, you’re writing about me,” to say that he had survived Auschwitz by chance.
The following day he received the following letter.
Dear Mr Varsano,
Although we have been neighbors since 1989 (separated only by a wall), I don’t know you personally. I have merely exchanged polite greetings with your sons. For that we are both to blame, as well as our impersonal, deserted industrial district.
You article in yesterday’s Kathimerini brought me close to you, not because it reminded me of this neighborhood, but mainly because the Jews of Thessaloniki and the history of the Jews, culminating in the Shoah, have had a striking impact on my life. I am the offspring of Pontian Greeks who underwent their own genocide and who passed on to me the deep feeling of anger and pain that one has when undergoing unjust mass persecution. Our sufferings do not of course match yours in terms of either intensity or time, but they enable me to commiserate with you and stand by you when ridiculous deniers of history try to diminish humanity’s shame at what was done to you.
I came into the world on the day that Thessaloniki was being emptied of my Jewish compatriots and that gives me a permanent sense of emptiness and guilt.
I am writing this letter to offer you my sympathy and friendship and I would be delighted to offer you a coffee soon. [Signature]
The time for discussion is now. Antisemitism and questions of freedom of speech versus incitement to violence have been hidden for too long.
The plaintiffs hope the case will start, and that the reactions recorded in blogs and the press will eventually be expressed in more organized form. University and political circles are already discussing the need for a new way of dealing with ultra-right discourse in Greece, especially now that LAOS has representatives in Parliament and its hard-core officials have had television exposure.
Ultra-rightists and neo-Nazis are ready for the court case. Posters around Athens call for mobilization. None are signed by known organizations.
I will be following this case very closely and keep you updated as I find reactions to it around the internet and in other media. The far-right and the neo-nazis are already being very vocal (as you can see in the above quote), with some of their largest forums and sites gathering support from around the world.
It is time for us to be vocal too.
Technorati: greece, kostas plevris, costas plevris, neo-nazi, antisemitism,
Can I ask a question?
SENTENCE EDITED BY DEVIOUS DIVA. YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTION WITHOUT INSULTS
Martin, stated the following on the thread Life Without Papers”
“This mentality disappeared for most countries along with Adolf Hitler: shame on you Greeks for continuing it. It is about time the lies and falsehoods about “race” were dropped and Greeks accepted being part of the real world.”
“Insofar as scientidic evidence is concerned, please do not insult my intelligence: the standard scientific opinion is that there is no such thing as race, which is a socially constructed idea. Nowhere is this more true than in the case of Greeks, who are genetically as mixed up as any other European nationality.”
If there is no such thing as race (it being a socially constructed idea) does this mean there is no such thing as a Jewish race or a Semitic race?
Therefore, cries of anti-Semitism are false because someone cannot be “anti” something which does not exist?
I don’t find mockery of people with knowledge to be a very intelligent approach to life, although perhaps it fits in with some of the comments that I have made previously.
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To answer your question, which has vexed sociologists for some time: race is clearly a social construct, and as such is rejected by the scientific world as actually existing. In terms of popular perceptions, it is thought by many to exist as a real thing [despite all the scientific evidence that we are all just variants of one species].
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Since many people believe in the idea of race, it is possible for them to show racially discriminatory behaviour on the basis of their own opinions. This is commonly called racism.
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Racial discrimination is outlawed under the two antidiscrimination European Directives of 2000, through the recent Greek law implementing these. Discrimination is also prohibited by the Constitution, by Law 494/1970 implementing the 1966 International Convention on Racial Discrimination and in Greek criminal law by Law 927/1979.
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Greece’s record on enforcing the provisions of these laws is a disgrace, showing a complete lack of commitment to international human rights principles.
Thanks Marge. You seem like a decent soul despite being Anglo-Saxon. One decent soul can always recognise another.
And you understand irony, satire and farce.
Thanks Leg :).
Martin:
“To answer your question, which has vexed sociologists for some time: race is clearly a social construct, and as such is rejected by the scientific world as actually existing. In terms of popular perceptions, it is thought by many to exist as a real thing.”
You could say the same about love, yet people the world over believe it exists. If people believe it exists, it exists for them.
Race, class, religion, gender, they are all ways we use of feeling superior about ourselves, to define ourselves in relation to the outgroup. You, for example, often define yourself as a academic in relation to ignorant students. Your superior intelligence and knowledge are very important to you, which is why Legein mocks you.
People are frightened of immigrants because they do not want the way of life they enjoy to be changed and fear that people with a different culture may force them to change. Nevermind that the fear is misplaced or unnecessary. Whilst I would never deny that racial discrimination exists, fears about immigration and racism should not be confused. Greece is having to deal with unprecedented numbers of immigrants - more than most countries have ever been required to absorb in such a short space of time - as you well know. The backlash is not surprising, is it?
You need to deal with the fear instead of pretending that it doesn’t or shouldn’t exist.
Hi Margaret, I think it is important to look at the fears about immigration and really do something to tackle that. There is however a huge difference between the “backlash” that involves people muttering about foreigners being here every time we get on the bus and people being attacked and seriously injured in their own homes. Expressing a hatred of foreigners in that way is too horrible to even think about. This gang are not going to be effected by education programmes in schools or by reasonable and truthful media reporting etc.
We need the police and the authorities to stand up and protect us from those people. We need people to take the complaints we make seriously, not pass them off as some paranoid thinking on our part. We need people to stand up and say “This is wrong. What are we going to do about it?”
Hi DD. I agree with you mostly. I don’t think that there is a huge difference, however, between the two behaviours you describe, or at least they are just more or less violent variants of the same behaviour.
Lots of things need to happen at once, possibly. Criminal sanctions properly enforced against racist behaviour, stopping up the gaps in the horribly porous borders so illegal immigration is much reduced, developing a proper immigration policy, and, quite separately, considering changing nationality provisions if necessary. There is not a great deal that individuals can do about enforcement generally, but I think quite a lot can be done with intelligent debate to influence immigration and nationality policy. Immigration policies all start with an agreement that an Open Doors policy is a non-starter, so you need to decided who you will let in and on what basis. A nasty nettle to grasp.
Yes, they do have the same root. I mean that the there is a huge difference in the way they are expressed. The one can be tackled with education, discussion etc and as you say, having a PROPER immigration policy. The other needs direct action now (actually action should have been taken as soon as this gang was known about). I believe the members are known to the police and authorities but nothing was done to prevent them carrying out this brutal attack. It was obvious to those of us who have been following the complaints made by the Pakistani community, that this would escalate and lead to more serious injuries and possibly deaths.
Well, my personal opinion about the anti-Semitism issue in Greece, and this trial in particular, is that it has precisely NOTHING to do with immigration. The Jews have occupied this part of the world for as long as the Greeks have, and in Thessaloniki were more numerous and more important than Greeks between 1900 and 1923.
For me, it is nothing other than racial intolerance. Think about it: Greeks had very little relationship with the Holocaust other than that Greece was occupied by Fascists in WW II. They should therefore empathise with Jewish people, as fellow sufferers. [Not even fellow: the Jews suffered much more] Instead, all I hear from my Greek friends is complaints about Jews and how they run the world. It is a sort of jealousy. But if anyone dares to mention in public this extensive feeling of anti-Semitism, Greek people rush to deny it.
This book is an extreme, more educated, version of how a lot of ordinary Greeks feel about Jews, it seems to me. This is why the trial judges are not bothered about the clear incitement to racial hatred and also why the Greek state has never prosceuted anyone under the 1979 law. There is no commitment to the principle of anti-discrimination, and I repeat, it has nothing at all to do with immigration. It is about race, beginning and end. The theoretical laws are there only for international display, not to actually change or inhibit the way in which people behave and think.
Martin, I wondered if you ever wandered over to this blog - My Greek Odyssey. I thought you might like to read the letter on this page (you’ll need to scroll down a bit):
http://greekodyssey.typepad.co.....-holo.html
It is one of the most uplifting letters I’ve ever read and rather disproves your point, at least historically.
Martin, your grasp of historical facts is really laughable. For the purposes of accuracy the Greeks have been in Thessaloniki and the region surrounding it a very long time before Jews.
Margaret and Diva, good discussion. Diva, education is important but it runs both ways.
Margaret: I am aware of individuals in Greek history who have done great things, and your link is to examples of such. I am speaking of popular opinion, which I can only judge from opinion polls, living here in Greece, and what approaching 100% of my educated Greek friends say about these things.
legein: you have no real knowledge and nothing to say. Your above comments are just stupid and wrong. I only ask that people read serious history written usually by Greek scholars insted of citing schoolbook propaganda to us.
By the way, Margaret: I think you misunderstand what happens with legein and people like him. The attacks against me are not because I am highly knowledgable and attach importance to such knowledge and understanding. They are based on the fact that I dare to refute the Greek nationalist propaganda. They are a denial of the value of independent thinking, and in a specific way a sort of indirect racism against people who do not conform to the “correct” Greek version of history. Everything legein writes is based on the standard Greek propaganda. It is not possible to have a polite or meaningful discussion with such people: I have tried over the last 20 years and I know.
I think I’ve known Legein for quite a long time (though I may be wrong) and probably a couple of years longer than you. He has an unusual way of seeing the world, granted, but I believe that he shares my shoe fetish which makes him OK in my book. For all that he has an abiding hatred of Anglo Saxons (I imagine for good reason, and I can say that since I am one) I am constantly surprised by his comments and some of the books he has recommended have been the most interesting I’ve read. He is completely benign and wouldn’t hurt a fly. But he does like to provoke. Is that not so, Legein?
I think that the majority of us foreigners are making huge efforts to learn the language and the history and culture in Greece. Most of us want to get on and live fruitful lives here. What is hard is that it is not a two way thing. There doesn’t seem to be much willingness to find out about who we are and why we are here etc. We are just lumped together as “the immigrants” and told we are the cause of much of the ills of Greece.
Greece is changing. It has become a multicultural society. More and more Greeks are studying abroad and coming back to Greece to live and work bringing their experiences with them. Young people are wanting different things than their parents. And so on…
We have a choice. We can wither bury our heads in the sand and refuse to recognise the reality of todays Greece or we can get serious and deal with it. I think that means letting go of some things and embracing other things, even though it’s uncomfortable.
I know that I see the way my kid is and the things he wants and does that are not like I was when I was young. Sometimes I feel lost. Sometimes it infuriates me. Sometimes I can learn from him. Refusing to allow any kind of negotiation gets us nowhere except in a never ending cycle of argument and estrangement.
Do you know what I mean?
Diva, yes we do have a choice. And some people make the choice that they do not want anymore immigrants and preserve a unique Hellenic culture. You should respect that choice. Clearly, you do not. And using external examples to legitimise the multicultural idea does not wash with most people. Also, many Greeks actually want to learn about Pakistanis and other people - to be a Greek means to be a cosmopolitan - but some of them would prefer to see them in their own country rather than Patisia because the cost of losing their own heritage is too high.
You really make no effort to understand contrary points of view. You bury your own head in the sand by sanctioning racists like Martin on your blog.
I make no apology for my position on multiculturalism. I use my own way to explain my opinion because that’s the way I am. I can’t be someone else.
I get that people are worried about immigration. I really do get that. After all, I hear it everyday. What I am trying to say, that I think you misunderstand, is that immigration is happening and will continue to happen and that Greece has to deal with that. No, there is not much choice in that, unless you are going to kill everyone trying to cross the borders and I do not for a minute think that you would wish for that. Greece does have a choice in how it will proceed given the current situation.
I wish for once that someone would give some answers to the questions I ask about how Greece is going to proceed from here instead of just saying “we don’t want foreigners here”.
If you are going to decide, as a country, that you do not want any more immigrants, you have to make that decision and deal with the consequences (seeing as Greece is a member of wider communities and profits from being a member). How do you see that happening ? Without the support of the millions of euros Greece receives to deal with immigration ?
If you are going to rid the country of immigrants, you need to make that decision and deal with consequences. How do you see that happening (if that’s what you would like to see) ? How would Greece deal with mass deportations without the support of the EU and the rest of the world ? Even financially, how could Greece support such an idea ?
I am trying to understand your position and mostly fail to because I don’t see how your ideas are attainable or desirable. I’m afraid I don’t see that immigration is a threat to the rich heritage of Greece. I don’t see how it can be. What part of Greek heritage do you see being destroyed ?
I am clearly not burying my head in the stand…I am talking to you aren’t I ? I am keeping the conversation open as much as I can without it falling into a racist diatribe. (Yes, I have deleted some comments here but I have been open about what I will not host here)
I am really trying to be as open as possible in this discussion even though I am very uncomfortable with some of the opinions expressed (as you are with mine). I do feel though that people are attacking my style or me, without trying to answer some of the many questions I have asked. Let me ask you one last question here because you are asking me to do the same: Do you really respect the choices of others when they go against your own values ?
Very interesting comment, DD, and I admire you for sticking with this difficult discussion.
You pose a challenge for legein, though, that you’ll have to see how he responds to, but I’m not sure it’s a fair challenge. After all, do you really respect the choices of those who, for example, abuse women, believe women to be or treat women as inferior, practice female genital mutilation, believe some races to be inferior, practice polygamy, slaugter animals in the street, deny the holocaust? That’s where multiculturalism hits problems. Most of us don’t really believe in true multiculturalism, but have a bottom line which is cultural. I certainly do and I’m glad I know where it is and that it’s set in concrete. I don’t respect people’s choices if they go below my bottom line.
“you have no real knowledge and nothing to say.”
Martin, Legein is correct. The area in and around Thessaloniki has been inhabited by Greek peoples for far longer than Jewish peoples.
Margaret, I asked legin that question because that is what he is asking me to do. To respect people’s choices when I disagree with them. I don’t think it’s fair to ask someone to do that but that is what I understand he wants from me.
Diva, thank you for taking the time to write such a considered comment. A couple of points….
You wrote “What I am trying to say, that I think you misunderstand, is that immigration is happening and will continue to happen and that Greece has to deal with that.” This kind of thinking, which I read and hear all the time, irks me. It irks me because we are a supposedly sovereign or autonomous people but our choices are made for us. It is not just regarding immigration but it is also regarding issues like economic rationalism. These issues are made to seem they are based on self evident premises. And because most of humanity just wants to get on with life they do not reflect and question that maybe these supposedly self evident premises are not really self evident at all. Likewise, with mass immigration we are told it is just the way it is and we have to accept it. But what is this seeming tyranny of inevitability based upon? Is it based on history? I could have find just as many examples of successful mutliethnic entities as relatively homogenous ones so history is not really a guide. For example, posters usually cite the United States as an example of a wealthy multiethnic state implying we should all become like that. However, there are many examples of relatively homogenous wealthy states. So that argument is flawed. Is it based on economics? There is no theory in economics which supports multiethnic societies over homogenous ones in trying to solve the problem of the distribution of scarce resources. There is no real strong argument in favour of multiculturalism.
You also wrote: “No, there is not much choice in that, unless you are going to kill everyone trying to cross the borders and I do not for a minute think that you would wish for that.” Yes, there is a choice. Many countries have exercised their choice i.e. Korea, Japan, Israel, and many are increasingly exercising their choice i.e. France, Russia, Switzerland, come to mind immediately. And none of these countries are killing people who cross their borders - with the exception of Israel but that is a special case. Greece’s choice is to increase spending to improve border patrols and to enact legislation that punishes trespassers or people smugglers. This would help to slow the level of immigration. Also, they could better police illegal immigrants currently in Greece.
You also wrote: “If you are going to decide, as a country, that you do not want any more immigrants, you have to make that decision and deal with the consequences (seeing as Greece is a member of wider communities and profits from being a member). How do you see that happening ?” Those EU countries have been in the process of changing their immigration laws over the last five years. Obviously, the trend is for less immigration or more controlled immigration. So if Greece decided they did not want any more immigrants I do not believe they would be considered a pariah state. On the contrary, many EU countries would probably be relieved.
You wrote: “I am trying to understand your position and mostly fail to because I don’t see how your ideas are attainable or desirable” I have never advocated mass deportations.
You wrote: “I’m afraid I don’t see that immigration is a threat to the rich heritage of Greece. I don’t see how it can be. What part of Greek heritage do you see being destroyed ?” You may not see it but plenty of Greeks do. Considering what it is happening in Kosovo then some of their fears are legitimate.
You asked: “Do you really respect the choices of others when they go against your own values ?” It depends. However, in this case you are required to respect a Greek’s choices more than they should respect yours. Why you may ask? I assume you are not a Greek citizen and therefore cannot vote, hardly know how to speak Greek and do not have a long Greek heritage. Therefore, in the nation of Greece your choices should be limited in comparison to the average Greek. This is one of the reasons why citizenship is conferred - to differentiate citizens from non-citizens. You decided to come to Greece - no one forced you there? Therefore, you should conform to Greek ways. Not the other way around. If you enter someone’s house you should respect their belongings and their customs just the same way you would expect them to do the same to you when they enter your home.
Diva, I know what it feels like to be a migrant and to be in a minority and have suffered racist attacks myself. However, I have never harboured bitterness to the attackers and when I put myself in their shoes I can understand their fear and hatred. Particularly, when they are young and not fully mature. I do not try and deconstruct their history nor deny it altogether. I do not call them Balkan Peasants. I do not make up falsifications to discredit them.
legein: I suggest you go and boil your head in a bucket of water. It is clear to everyone who is not Greek that you are a racist and that I accept all cultures and ethnicities. What I dislike is the abuse of power that we see in Greece, with lies and nastiness all the time.
The big mistake that has been made was in allowing a country like Greece into the EU, when its population does not accept basic human rights for people other than Greeks. You do not belong in Europe with that attitude, and fit in better with Turkey or Iran. I suggest you join those countries, whose values are closer to yours than they are to mine or the rest of Europe.
I didn’t actually say that. I said “that immigration is happening and will continue to happen and that Greece has to deal with that. Very different. In my opinion the “inevitability” of immigration arises from the fact that there is poverty, unemployment, war, conflict and persecution around the world and that people are in search of safety and a better life. If there was no such issues to deal with the vast majority of people would stay in their homelands (apart from the few wandering souls who enjoy the adventure or those who are relocated through work)
I personally enjoy living in a multicultural environment. From what I am seeing Greece is already a multicultural society so talking about wanting it to be a homogeneous one seems like an impossible and unrealistic fantasy.
Yes, the trend is towards less immigration or more controlled immigration. This is what European countries have decided. And Greece has the right to decide to do that too. My problem is when people rights are being violated because of anti-immigrant sentiment. (and obviously a great sadness that people are regarded with such disdain because they are foreign)
The question of mass deportations was not to say that that’s what you wanted it (although I didn’t know your position on that) but a general question of IF that’s what Greece decides.
On the heritage question, I am going to push you further. Can you give examples of what is really being lost in terms of Greece specifically ? It’s not useful to me to just say that others see it and I don’t. Can you point it out to me? Specific examples. Because I am really unclear about your point.
As for the citizenship issues, I am a citizen but I am not Greek by birth or naturalisation. I am subject to Greek laws like everyone else here and adhere to them. I’m annoyed that you assume my grasp of the language is poor. Even if that is true, you don’t know yet you assume.
Can you be more specific about which choices you think should be limited for me ? And what Greek ways should I be conforming to (other than laws which I abide by)? I’m afraid I don’t understand that part of your comment at all.
Lastly, can I ask you what is your experience of being a migrant ? I think it would help me understand more about where you are coming from if I knew more about your background. Of course, you are under no obligation to reveal anything if you don’t wish to. I’m just wondering…
DD, I shall be sorry to miss the rest of this discussion and look forward to reading more after the weekend. I’m off to Brussels.
I think you’re doing a great job, with some really thoughtful, measured comments. I thought you might be interested in a couple of recent posts of my blog, both on the subject of multiculturalism.
http://adifferentvoice.wordpre.....-together/
http://adifferentvoice.wordpre.....e-land-ii/
I imagine Legein is fast asleep in bed if he lives where I think he does in the world …
You wrote: “In my opinion the “inevitability” of immigration arises from the fact that there is poverty, unemployment, war, conflict and persecution around the world and that people are in search of safety and a better life”. Yes, unfortunately there are these problems. And Greeks of an older generation know these problems very well. But this does mean a culture should be swamped by immigrants. It would be better if the world tried to solve these problems at their cause rather than effect. To use a medical analogy, to implement preventative care rather than symptomatic or palliative care. Greeks know the effects of only symptomatic care and most of them did not like it. So we should learn from their experiences. Under the present trend humanity is in a lose-lose situation. The migrant is separated from their homeland whilst the culture of the host nation is inorganically altered. Would it be better if we tried to aim for a win-win situation?
You wrote: “I personally enjoy living in a multicultural environment. From what I am seeing Greece is already a multicultural society so talking about wanting it to be a homogeneous one seems like an impossible and unrealistic fantasy”. That is your preference. However, judging by all the polling statistics the majority of Greeks do not share your preference. If we live in a democracy then the needs and wants of the majority should be respected and adhered too.
You wrote: “My problem is when people rights are being violated because of anti-immigrant sentiment. (and obviously a great sadness that people are regarded with such disdain because they are foreign)”. There will always excesses by small sections of the population. We should try to minimise these but the majority is not responsible for the actions of a crazy few.
You wrote: “On the heritage question, I am going to push you further. Can you give examples of what is really being lost in terms of Greece specifically ? It’s not useful to me to just say that others see it and I don’t. Can you point it out to me? Specific examples. Because I am really unclear about your point.” One example is the Year 6 history book. One of the main drivers behind the creation of this book was to make Greek history more acceptable to its neighbours and migrants to hopefully reduce tension. But we cannot change history to suit the needs and wants of the minority. What about the majority who are comfortable with the truth? We cannot sacrifice truth for a false peace.
You wrote: “As for the citizenship issues, I am a citizen but I am not Greek by birth or naturalisation. I am subject to Greek laws like everyone else here and adhere to them. I’m annoyed that you assume my grasp of the language is poor. Even if that is true, you don’t know yet you assume” Are you a Greek citizen or not? About the language I am not assuming but I know because you sometimes ask Greeks to translate Greek texts for you.
You wrote: “Can you be more specific about which choices you think should be limited for me ? And what Greek ways should I be conforming to (other than laws which I abide by)? I’m afraid I don’t understand that part of your comment at all”. Your choices should be limited by the ones offered to you by the majority of the country you are living in. Also, apart from addhering to the nation’s laws there is also the spirit of the law which means respecting your host nation’s culture. The culture of most Greeks - not the culture of some disaffected people who are not wholly representative of Greece.
You wrote: “Lastly, can I ask you what is your experience of being a migrant ? I think it would help me understand more about where you are coming from if I knew more about your background. Of course, you are under no obligation to reveal anything if you don’t wish to. I’m just wondering…” My personal background is not really relevant because my personal needs and wants do not determine the needs and wants of greater society. Neither do some else’s need and wants. I may contribute but I have to respect what the majority decide. Also, I am not really into personal revelatory stories and seeking sympathy from others. I believe this sort of approach ruins the soul. But believe me I know the migrant story. I would have preferred that it was different.
At the risk of offending DD, I should point out that this thread is on an anti-Semitism trial. Specifically, it is about the Greek culture’s overall approach to Greek citizens who are not Orthodox Christians: it is NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION.
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As usual, my historical observations taken from standard scholarship are denied by the Greek nationalists here, who are determined to lie and cheat their way into claiming that this region has always been populated by “Greeks”. This, first and foremost, is the cause of the racism, anti-semitism and extreme violence which is now getting worse. It is a typical Balkan problem — look now at Kosova and Serbia, where they are threatening war again over who “owns” the history of particular territory.
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As I have mentioned before on this blog, there is no reasoning with people like legein: they are sure that they are right, they have no intention of changing their minds, and ultimately they are nationalist and racist. The dislike of Jews and gypsies is central to modern Greek identity, and is an international scandal. They will not even discuss it, as you have seen from the above nonsense about immigration. IT IS NOT ABOUT IMMIGRANTS: THIS IS ABOUT GREEK CITIZENS.
By the way, the story with the Greek schoolbook is another international scandal. The revised book, as far as I know, took into account modern scholarship from real sources [not the stupid prejudices derived from propaganda] and is written mostly by Greek scholars. It shows clearly, as clearly as the Holocaust history for example, that the Asia Minor problem was as much the fault of the Greek army and politicians as of the Ottomans [or Turks].
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If you look across the internet, you will find site after site controlled by Greek nationalists, which are declaring the “gencoide of the Greeks” by the Turks. No serious historian supports this claim, it is ignorant propaganda by nationalists. Becauase these people have caused so much trouble with the revised school textbook, the lily-livered prime minister gave in and stopped supporting his Education Minister.
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This is what Greece is all about: populism, nationalism, lies and propaganda. There is no concept of truth, or independent academic scholarship, or anything other than political power. As I mentioned previously, this places Greece is the camp of countries like Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, etc. I do not want this behaviour in Europe, and I will not accept it under any conditions. Let Greece remove itself from the EU if the people cannot accept our European values.
I agree with Martin but have no time to repeat in English what I have written in Greek on the trial and the pseudo-debate on freedom of expression.
I can only point to the Greek blog “jungle report” where all the texts -and a link to the excellent Lipovatz article- are:
http://jungle-report.blogspot......st_07.html
http://jungle-report.blogspot......-post.html
http://jungle-report.blogspot.com/2007/11/i.html
http://jungle-report.blogspot.com/2007/11/ii.html
In the meantime hundreds of Roma families in Votanikos are facing imminent eviction and someone has to try to help them - most likely in vain, as no one else cares (and I do not mean DD).
Martin, of course it is about immigration - at least in the minds of most people. You are right, equally, that it is not about immigration in the sense that the people being discriminated are Greek citizens, even if they are not ethnically Greek.
What happens, however, is that in the minds of some people two separate problems become conflated, precisely because one of the problems is perceived to be out of control. I linked to the letter on Stavros’s blog, My Greek Odyssey, earlier, but it would seem to demonstrate that in a time when there was little immigration from outside, the Jews living in Greece were not only accepted but even cherished. What has changed?
What happens, I think, is that people dislike the number of immigrants coming to their country and are frightened that it threatens their culture (this is not a Greek phenomenon) and, lazily, expand the dislike to include anyone who is not ethnically Greek since it is too difficult (because they are lazy) to make the distinctions.
Prejudices are always shorthand. For example, I get a lot of stick because I am English. Not because I personally have done anything that warrants the dislike to such a degree, but because those who would abuse the English (and may have good reason to dislike some of them) cannot be bothered to sort the wheat from the trash (to mix metaphors) and instead tar everyone with the same brush.
So, it has become about immigration. I’m sure if immigration was under control, you would see a reduction in the abhorrent racist behaviour, graffiti, and anti-semitism. Except amongst the mad minority which every society is saddled with. The behaviour is a symptom of Greek society shouting “Too much, we cannot take any more”, and they may have a point if immigration is running at the levels suggested in the article in the Guardian where you were quoted last week. It was the same in the UK, but immigration has fallen quite a lot and government policy has changed dramatically to accommodate people’s feelings. The very essence, after all, of a sovereign state is that it can control who can and who cannot come into it. Which may, or may not, be about racism.
And now I really must be off.
Margaret: I really disagree completely on this claim that high levels of immigration are the issue in Greece. There were serious problems of racial intolerance well before the mass immigration of 1991 — against Roma and Jews in particular. Greece is not a typical Western country, where the immigration issue shapes the labour market and popular opinion. The political debates in Greece are not about “problems of immigration” but about problems of corruption of Greeks and Greek instititions, about Greek nationalist ideas on what “Greeks” own in the Balkans, and maintenance of certain power structures — as we saw in Panteion University last week, when some politicised students opposed the democratic voting reforms on the grounds that one vote per person is undemocratic.
And I do not accept that Greeks mistakenly conflate the issues: it is deliberate and designed to trick the outsiders into thinking that Greece is like the rest of Europe.
and let me correct two serious mistakes in the Kathimerini article
the horrible prosecutor was NOT Mouzakitis - who on the contart wrote the damning indictment- but Lazarakos
and the case was not brought to the court by New York based Human Rights Watch but by Greek Helsinki Monitor
Legein,
You wrote that there have been examples of successful multi-ethnic societies. I ask, kindly list them for me. The reason I ask is that I have yet to hear or read of one. Thanks in advance.
Anti-Semitism, racial hatred and religious intolerance are all worthy subjects for discussion. There is no denying that people who harbor those views exist in Greece as they do in Great Britain, the United States, and European. Anyone who believes that those things were swept away after Hitler’s demise in places like Germany, Poland, France, is living in a fairy tale. Singling a nation like Greece out and labeling every Greek as “racially intolerant” or trying to paint Greece as having a major problem in this regard is indicative of someone with an ax to grind.
The Community Security Trust, the defense organization of Britain’s 300,000-strong Jewish community, last year saw nearly 600 anti-Semitic assaults, incidents of vandalism, cases of abuse, and threats against Jewish individuals and institutions—double the 2001 number. (This figure does not include attacks against Roma, blacks or other immigrants.) According to the police, Jews are four times more likely to be attacked because of their religion than are Muslims. Every synagogue service and Jewish communal event now requires guards on the lookout for violence from both British born Neo-Nazis and Muslim extremists. Orthodox Jews have become particular targets; some have begun wearing baseball caps instead of skullcaps and concealing their Star of David jewelry. Does this suggest that Britain is “intolerant” or that ALL British citizens are anti-Semitic?
Denying that high levels of uncontrolled immigration do not tear at the fabric of a country ignores reality and the historical record. I am an American of Greek descent. Americans are sometimes accused of intervening in the affairs of sovereign countries and imposing our views on those countries. It appears that we are not the only ones.
Stavro: racism is endemic in the UK, is a massive problem and extremely violent. We can say the same for neo-Nazis across Europe and I will be the last person to say otherwise. However, the “passive” racism in Greece has always been high, and is now turning into something more violent. Is this what you want for Greece? Is it a good idea to legitimate racial hatred with the doubtful claim that there are “too many” immigrants in Greece? And the historical record does not bear out your opinion: it supports mine.
Insofar as “labelling” a nation as racially intolerant is concerned, it is not my label. It is the clear result of all opinion polls ever conducted in Greece, and the general conclusion of Greek academic scholarship on the matter. I also observe it with my close Greek friends [every one of them with a doctorate or masters degree), who think that their views are fine and are an expression of the freedom of speech to say, for example, ” I hate Pakistanis” etc. Do you think all of this should be concealed? I don’t.
By the way, I resent the comment that I am interfering in Greece. I am a citizen of the European Union, have the right to reside where I wish, and I regularly advise governments and the European Commission on these policy matters. If Greece doesn’t accept being part of the European framework, it should quit. So far, it has been very good at taking money and (deliberately) rather poor at implementing European laws and rules.
“that this region has always been populated by “Greeks”.”
lol, it has. no one denies there have been other different ethnic groups living here over time, but Greek speaking groups have been the predominant group for most of the time since Mycanaean times.
racism is endemic in the UK, is a massive problem and extremely violent. We can say the same for neo-Nazis across Europe and I will be the last person to say otherwise. However, the “passive” racism in Greece has always been high, and is now turning into something more violent. Is this what you want for Greece? Is it a good idea to legitimate racial hatred with the doubtful claim that there are “too many” immigrants in Greece?
After writing this, would it not have a good idea to sit back and reflect its meaning? You state that there is this endemic racism in the UK despite all that has been attempted and enacted. Draconian speech suppressing laws and unidirectional “hate” laws. They don’t seem to stopping this “endemic racism”, do they? What would you like to do next to stop it, Martin? Say, whisking people off in the middle of the night, Soviet style, as they have not been “cured” of their racism by standard measures? Is that more to the taste?
As for Greece; why do you think there is this rise from passive racism to violent interactions? Just what do you think has caused this?
And the historical record does not bear out your opinion: it supports mine.
No. I’m afraid, hence the major apprehension by many regarding this major, elite induced mass migration of peoples, the historical record clearly supports Stavros’ claim. Many regions are headed for significant bloody futures. All thanks to social Marxist tinkering, selfishness, and greed.
By the way, I resent the comment that I am interfering in Greece. I am a citizen of the European Union, have the right to reside where I wish, and I regularly advise governments and the European Commission on these policy matters.
You are interfering as you impose your blind ideology to other blind ideologists and then you wonder why you all end up walking off the proverbial cliff together as you all are holding hands. Then you have the audacity to blame the “racists” as being too stupid to understand your enlightenment. No, I’m afraid you are the problem Martin as you do not understand world history, human nature, and many other aspects of what is a part of natural human instinct and existence. That is why your oppressive hate laws do not work, Martin. And why there is still endemic racism in the UK and why Greece is going from passive racism to violence. They go against human nature.
Appalled: I wrote what I wrote with full awareness and I do not need your advice to know how to think. The reasons for racism in the UK are complex, and I will not overburden your intellect with them. They have nothing to do with the reasons in Greece, is the main point.
You may find racial intolerance to be part of human nature, and this is an oft-cited argument by racists, but we can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft, etc. What is your point exactly? That we should not try to guide people into behaving in a more civilised way, perhaps?
I know the Greek solution to all these things: we have seen it in modern history and in contemporary events. This “solution” is to deny facts, to reinvent history, and to claim that everyone else is the problem other than Greeks. I note that that is what you have done in your last post: you accuse me of being the problem! If it were not so pathetic, it would be laughable. I advise you to reflect on what you wrote, because you are advocating some sort of anarchy. Greece is well on its way there, I suppose, so perhaps you are satisfied with the chaos around us.
Martin, I have a SIDEBAR for you:
Have you noticed how Greek citizens views on foreign policy are almost 100% the same.
For example, ask any Greek about the following topics:
George Bush; Macedonia name issue; American involvement in Iraq; Cyprus invasion; Who is responsible for the Greek Military Junta.
In my informal research, I’ve found that all Greeks have the identical answer to these foreign policy issues.
By contrast, in the USA, we couldn’t get two Americans to agree on foreign policy if we wanted to. We have Americans who were with Bush on Iraq, and others who weren’t, and still today, there are some who are still with Bush. This is a healthy trait called Democracy.
Why in Greece does democracy seem stunted?
I would advise anyone to do their own research? Ask 10 random Greeks their opinions on the above topics I’ve mentioned, and notice how similar their answers are.
Martin, this is very odd to me. Do you have any research on the local inhabitants here in Greece to show why they are such shallow thinkers? I’m doing a paper at an American University here in Athens and would like to use you as a source for this topic.
Devious Diva, you have not answered my question.
Are you are Greek citizen?
Martin,
Thanks for your reply. I don’t expect anyone here to be able to change your mind about any particular issue, since I sense that you are not easily swayed by anything that conflicts with your own view of the world. It’s obvious that you are a “true believer” and that means that you are a man on a mission. That mission being to “civilize” those that do not adhere to your views. That presupposes that Greeks are the ones in need of civilization and not the other way around. I am not quite sure who it was that gave you the mandate to do that or made you the arbiter of who is civilized. The whole attitude reeks of your colonial past, when you went around the world doing the same thing.
In the view of the big shots in Brussels whom you advise, it seems, it is more important to address the “passive racism” of the Greeks than the widespread violence of Muslims/Sinheads/Neo-Nazis throughout Europe but especially in France, Germany and the UK. You placate the people responsible for violent acts in the thousands that threaten the very existence of a United Europe while on the other hand take the Greek people, as a whole, to task for thinking “bad” thoughts. How do we know what Greeks think? Well, of course we can use opinion polls that can give us skewed results based on all sorts of variables that can be manipulated to arrive at foregone conclusions. We can also use the studies churned out by Marxist academics who now comprise the vast majority of our Western institutions of higher (?) learning. That my friend is a recipe for nothing more than misinformation designed to achieve political goals. That goal being to turn every European country into some sort of non-descript mass of people with no past, no sense of identity, no religion and worst of all, no future other than the one imposed by Brussels.
If there is any “shallow thinking” here it is on the part of those that think that the majority of Greeks should not be able to decide for themselves how they will live or what position they should take on issues of national importance such as Cyprus or FYROM or Northern Epirus. How can we expect people that don’t know their own history to understand the nuances of Greek history. The shallow thinkers are those who have no stake in a Greek future but feel competent to decide for Greeks what should ONLY be decided by Greeks.
Martin, I might be more receptive to some of your comments if you were half as enthusiastic about addressing real life human rights violations in Turkey, a state which the British and American government are actively pushing for EU membership rather than spending your time trying to reform “attitudes” in Greece.
Corbett,
As an American, I am always wary of other Americans that go to other countries and start telling them they are shallow thinkers. Especially given that so many Americans couldn’t even tell you the name of their vice president or find Greece on a map.
Regarding George Bush and Iraq, Greeks reflect the majority attitude of most Europeans. American foreign policy in the Balkans, generally, and in Cyprus in particular, is bankrupt. Is it any wonder that Greeks are united in the face of policies that are so clearly anti-Greek???
I would recommend that you spend your time in Greece trying to learn more about Greek history and culture. Try being a little less judgmental, it will get you farther. I was stationed in Greece at one time and return often. I don’t let Greeks get away with crude or ignorant remarks about my country. I also don’t like others making crude or ignorant remarks about their country.
Martin,
Just a word of advice regarding your approach to “debate” on forums such as these. You have no idea who you are speaking with so this unfounded condescension you enjoy splattering one that disagrees with your fatally flawed world view is only embarrassing you. At least to people who actually DO know about such things. I am aware that this is the usual modus operandi of ideologues, though do be a sport and try something a bit different.
Just for your own edification, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are too far gone in the world of racial and societal politics. What I am trying to do is to show others who may be reading that you have no logical argument and your ideology is built on a house of cards. I never asked you the causes of the endemic racism in the UK, I asked you why your approach has not caused and significant change in people’s minds over the last 5 decades or so of heavy indoctrination? I asked why the increase in racism in Greeks from passive to violent?
You may find racial intolerance to be part of human nature, and this is an oft-cited argument by racists, but we can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft, etc. What is your point exactly? That we should not try to guide people into behaving in a more civilised way, perhaps?
Well, maybe you can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft etc, though I do not think many rational people equate national pride, culture, society, ethnic solidarity with rape. Was this a glimpse into your keen intellect or your depraved social Marxist stance? A nation has people and borders than enclose those people. Over the eons, many of these people have transferred culture down the generations. These people are an extended genetic family and they know and are usually comfortable with each other. It doesn’t mean they all love one another and, as siblings are want to do, argue and fight at times. I’m sure even you have heard of the example where brothers fight like dogs though no one outside the family is allowed to saying or doing anything remotely disparaging towards either brother, right Martin? Personally, I have known 3 brothers like this during my youth. That is a nation writ large, Martin. It isn’t a bunch of rocks and sand that anyone is allowed access to because people like yourself say so.
A nation also is land that carries the genetic homeland of many peoples. It has special meaning to people. Greece would not be Greece if, over night, we exchanged all the Greeks with an equal number of Chinese, Indians, or Africans. Would it, Martin with your keen intellect? People have died for scraps of land from time immemorial, Martin. They will continue to die going forward as well, no matter how much your group of social engineers tinker with speech and thought crimes. Unless you happen to be James T Kirk from the Starship Enterprise, then please forgive me, as that futuristic TV world is free of money, hunger, greed, and every other human vice (aside from sex and alcohol, that is).
I know the Greek solution to all these things: we have seen it in modern history and in contemporary events. This “solution” is to deny facts, to reinvent history, and to claim that everyone else is the problem other than Greeks. I note that that is what you have done in your last post: you accuse me of being the problem! If it were not so pathetic, it would be laughable.
Yes Martin, YOU are the problem. You and other social Marixsts, like you. What you have done is make this world a much more dangerous place. You have had over half a century to “change” society and you have changed it, though for the worse. You have allowed millions of Muslims into Europe and millions of ethnically distant peoples into other western nations. You have created a tinder box in all of the western lands that will explode one day. Why? Oh for reasons you are either too stupid to understand or too blind to see. Things like nation and culture and ethny. But the real tragedy is that it will come AFTER you and your clan will have pushed Europeans to the brink and the next step would be off the cliff. Many have been bending backwards for years as they see their government behaving quite hostile towards them and the foreigners simply wanting more and more. You see, European whites may half swallow your bilge of equality, though the third world foreigners do not and when large enough in numbers, they will want autonomy and land. Where are you going be then, Martin? Just out of curiosity.
Corbett: this is a difficult question, which I am not expert on. My feeling is that it is a strange “conformism” in a society where people hate to confrom, and it is the result of several major events in the 20th century. First, the need to create Greek citizens out of range of different peoples, including Albanians, Slavs, Aromanians [Vlach] but later extending to Turkish speaking Chrstians from the 1923 population exchange: this was done by various mechanisms, but one was forced assimilation. The second major issue was the Civil War: this really had a terrible effect on Greece, and informs unconscious popular perceptions. The third is simply the way in whcih the school system has been used to promote conformity of thought– by rote learning, the prohibition of independent academic thnking, and a standard history of what Greece is [that differs substantially from academic accounts, and is propaganda]. That is my off-the-cuff response, but you could try contacting some of the excellent Greek academics who also work on these topics.
legein: the meaning of the word citizen is contestable. The Synigoros toy Politi considers all residents of Greece to be citizens, the Greek state usually defines it ONLY as those who are registered to vote in national elections, and some other state institutions think that it also includes homogeneis. Take your pick.
Stavro: I address elsewhere all of the issues you mention, and if you read any of my publications you will see that I am more critical of Turkey than of Greece, for example. However, this does not alter the fact that (a) we are all talking about Greece here; (b) after 26 years of being in the EU, it has done almost nothing to accept the basic values which are enshrined in European laws and practices. As I have mentioned before, this makes Greece look more like Turkey and Iran than a European country. Of course, it has some new neighbnours in the EU who also look very dubious in these matters — e.g. Bulgaria.
“I would advise anyone to do their own research? Ask 10 random Greeks their opinions on the above topics I’ve mentioned, and notice how similar their answers are.”
I fail to see how Greeks are going to be divided over an attempt to use our own history to justify expansionist tendencies and nationalist slavic rhetoric, as well as the invasion of our brothers in Cyprus and murder of thousands of them with the continued occupation of half the country.
America doesn’t have these problems, so any attempt at drawing parralels is absurd.
As for the military junta, there are plenty of differing opinions.
Castoriadis said that it only in the Greco-Roman tradition that one can actually study the Other. A few years ago, The World Press Review published a story with some interesting statistics on this question. Citing a report on twenty-two Arab countries overseen by the U.N., the article notes that”
“the total number of books translated into Arabic yearly is no more than 330, or one-fifth of those translated in a small country like Greece.
Indeed, the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Mamoun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year. ”
Multiculturalism in action. Just something to keep in mind the next time some academic starts nattering on about “Eurocentricism,” multiculturalism, etc.