I have allowed this discussion to dominate my blog for far too long.

Also hardly anyone here seems concerned about the violent racist attacks against foreigners here in Greece and what can be done to prevent future violence. All most of you seem to care about is defending the right of Greece to ignore what is going on here. There are many other forums where you can continue that discussion.

I will update on the Plevris trial when it resumes. If you do have a comment about the trial or antisemitism please email me and I will post your response.

Thank you.

“the total number of books translated into Arabic yearly is no more than 330, or one-fifth of those translated in a small country like Greece.

Indeed, the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Mamoun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year. ”

Multiculturalism in action. Just something to keep in mind the next time some academic starts nattering on about “Eurocentricism,” multiculturalism, etc.

I fail to see how Greeks are going to be divided over an attempt to use our own history to justify expansionist tendencies and nationalist slavic rhetoric, as well as the invasion of our brothers in Cyprus and murder of thousands of them with the continued occupation of half the country.

America doesn’t have these problems, so any attempt at drawing parralels is absurd.

As for the military junta, there are plenty of differing opinions.

legein: the meaning of the word citizen is contestable. The Synigoros toy Politi considers all residents of Greece to be citizens, the Greek state usually defines it ONLY as those who are registered to vote in national elections, and some other state institutions think that it also includes homogeneis. Take your pick.

Stavro: I address elsewhere all of the issues you mention, and if you read any of my publications you will see that I am more critical of Turkey than of Greece, for example. However, this does not alter the fact that (a) we are all talking about Greece here; (b) after 26 years of being in the EU, it has done almost nothing to accept the basic values which are enshrined in European laws and practices. As I have mentioned before, this makes Greece look more like Turkey and Iran than a European country. Of course, it has some new neighbnours in the EU who also look very dubious in these matters — e.g. Bulgaria.

Just a word of advice regarding your approach to “debate” on forums such as these. You have no idea who you are speaking with so this unfounded condescension you enjoy splattering one that disagrees with your fatally flawed world view is only embarrassing you. At least to people who actually DO know about such things. I am aware that this is the usual modus operandi of ideologues, though do be a sport and try something a bit different.

Just for your own edification, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are too far gone in the world of racial and societal politics. What I am trying to do is to show others who may be reading that you have no logical argument and your ideology is built on a house of cards. I never asked you the causes of the endemic racism in the UK, I asked you why your approach has not caused and significant change in people’s minds over the last 5 decades or so of heavy indoctrination? I asked why the increase in racism in Greeks from passive to violent?

You may find racial intolerance to be part of human nature, and this is an oft-cited argument by racists, but we can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft, etc. What is your point exactly? That we should not try to guide people into behaving in a more civilised way, perhaps?

Well, maybe you can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft etc, though I do not think many rational people equate national pride, culture, society, ethnic solidarity with rape. Was this a glimpse into your keen intellect or your depraved social Marxist stance? A nation has people and borders than enclose those people. Over the eons, many of these people have transferred culture down the generations. These people are an extended genetic family and they know and are usually comfortable with each other. It doesn’t mean they all love one another and, as siblings are want to do, argue and fight at times. I’m sure even you have heard of the example where brothers fight like dogs though no one outside the family is allowed to saying or doing anything remotely disparaging towards either brother, right Martin? Personally, I have known 3 brothers like this during my youth. That is a nation writ large, Martin. It isn’t a bunch of rocks and sand that anyone is allowed access to because people like yourself say so.

A nation also is land that carries the genetic homeland of many peoples. It has special meaning to people. Greece would not be Greece if, over night, we exchanged all the Greeks with an equal number of Chinese, Indians, or Africans. Would it, Martin with your keen intellect? People have died for scraps of land from time immemorial, Martin. They will continue to die going forward as well, no matter how much your group of social engineers tinker with speech and thought crimes. Unless you happen to be James T Kirk from the Starship Enterprise, then please forgive me, as that futuristic TV world is free of money, hunger, greed, and every other human vice (aside from sex and alcohol, that is).

I know the Greek solution to all these things: we have seen it in modern history and in contemporary events. This “solution” is to deny facts, to reinvent history, and to claim that everyone else is the problem other than Greeks. I note that that is what you have done in your last post: you accuse me of being the problem! If it were not so pathetic, it would be laughable.

Yes Martin, YOU are the problem. You and other social Marixsts, like you. What you have done is make this world a much more dangerous place. You have had over half a century to “change” society and you have changed it, though for the worse. You have allowed millions of Muslims into Europe and millions of ethnically distant peoples into other western nations. You have created a tinder box in all of the western lands that will explode one day. Why? Oh for reasons you are either too stupid to understand or too blind to see. Things like nation and culture and ethny. But the real tragedy is that it will come AFTER you and your clan will have pushed Europeans to the brink and the next step would be off the cliff. Many have been bending backwards for years as they see their government behaving quite hostile towards them and the foreigners simply wanting more and more. You see, European whites may half swallow your bilge of equality, though the third world foreigners do not and when large enough in numbers, they will want autonomy and land. Where are you going be then, Martin? Just out of curiosity.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t expect anyone here to be able to change your mind about any particular issue, since I sense that you are not easily swayed by anything that conflicts with your own view of the world. It’s obvious that you are a “true believer” and that means that you are a man on a mission. That mission being to “civilize” those that do not adhere to your views. That presupposes that Greeks are the ones in need of civilization and not the other way around. I am not quite sure who it was that gave you the mandate to do that or made you the arbiter of who is civilized. The whole attitude reeks of your colonial past, when you went around the world doing the same thing.

In the view of the big shots in Brussels whom you advise, it seems, it is more important to address the “passive racism” of the Greeks than the widespread violence of Muslims/Sinheads/Neo-Nazis throughout Europe but especially in France, Germany and the UK. You placate the people responsible for violent acts in the thousands that threaten the very existence of a United Europe while on the other hand take the Greek people, as a whole, to task for thinking “bad” thoughts. How do we know what Greeks think? Well, of course we can use opinion polls that can give us skewed results based on all sorts of variables that can be manipulated to arrive at foregone conclusions. We can also use the studies churned out by Marxist academics who now comprise the vast majority of our Western institutions of higher (?) learning. That my friend is a recipe for nothing more than misinformation designed to achieve political goals. That goal being to turn every European country into some sort of non-descript mass of people with no past, no sense of identity, no religion and worst of all, no future other than the one imposed by Brussels.

If there is any “shallow thinking” here it is on the part of those that think that the majority of Greeks should not be able to decide for themselves how they will live or what position they should take on issues of national importance such as Cyprus or FYROM or Northern Epirus. How can we expect people that don’t know their own history to understand the nuances of Greek history. The shallow thinkers are those who have no stake in a Greek future but feel competent to decide for Greeks what should ONLY be decided by Greeks.

Martin, I might be more receptive to some of your comments if you were half as enthusiastic about addressing real life human rights violations in Turkey, a state which the British and American government are actively pushing for EU membership rather than spending your time trying to reform “attitudes” in Greece.

Corbett,

As an American, I am always wary of other Americans that go to other countries and start telling them they are shallow thinkers. Especially given that so many Americans couldn’t even tell you the name of their vice president or find Greece on a map.

Regarding George Bush and Iraq, Greeks reflect the majority attitude of most Europeans. American foreign policy in the Balkans, generally, and in Cyprus in particular, is bankrupt. Is it any wonder that Greeks are united in the face of policies that are so clearly anti-Greek???

I would recommend that you spend your time in Greece trying to learn more about Greek history and culture. Try being a little less judgmental, it will get you farther. I was stationed in Greece at one time and return often. I don’t let Greeks get away with crude or ignorant remarks about my country. I also don’t like others making crude or ignorant remarks about their country.

Are you are Greek citizen?

Have you noticed how Greek citizens views on foreign policy are almost 100% the same.

For example, ask any Greek about the following topics:

George Bush; Macedonia name issue; American involvement in Iraq; Cyprus invasion; Who is responsible for the Greek Military Junta.

In my informal research, I’ve found that all Greeks have the identical answer to these foreign policy issues.

By contrast, in the USA, we couldn’t get two Americans to agree on foreign policy if we wanted to. We have Americans who were with Bush on Iraq, and others who weren’t, and still today, there are some who are still with Bush. This is a healthy trait called Democracy.

Why in Greece does democracy seem stunted?

I would advise anyone to do their own research? Ask 10 random Greeks their opinions on the above topics I’ve mentioned, and notice how similar their answers are.

Martin, this is very odd to me. Do you have any research on the local inhabitants here in Greece to show why they are such shallow thinkers? I’m doing a paper at an American University here in Athens and would like to use you as a source for this topic.

You may find racial intolerance to be part of human nature, and this is an oft-cited argument by racists, but we can argue the same for child abuse, rape, theft, etc. What is your point exactly? That we should not try to guide people into behaving in a more civilised way, perhaps?

I know the Greek solution to all these things: we have seen it in modern history and in contemporary events. This “solution” is to deny facts, to reinvent history, and to claim that everyone else is the problem other than Greeks. I note that that is what you have done in your last post: you accuse me of being the problem! If it were not so pathetic, it would be laughable. I advise you to reflect on what you wrote, because you are advocating some sort of anarchy. Greece is well on its way there, I suppose, so perhaps you are satisfied with the chaos around us.

After writing this, would it not have a good idea to sit back and reflect its meaning? You state that there is this endemic racism in the UK despite all that has been attempted and enacted. Draconian speech suppressing laws and unidirectional “hate” laws. They don’t seem to stopping this “endemic racism”, do they? What would you like to do next to stop it, Martin? Say, whisking people off in the middle of the night, Soviet style, as they have not been “cured” of their racism by standard measures? Is that more to the taste?

As for Greece; why do you think there is this rise from passive racism to violent interactions? Just what do you think has caused this?

And the historical record does not bear out your opinion: it supports mine.

No. I’m afraid, hence the major apprehension by many regarding this major, elite induced mass migration of peoples, the historical record clearly supports Stavros’ claim. Many regions are headed for significant bloody futures. All thanks to social Marxist tinkering, selfishness, and greed.

By the way, I resent the comment that I am interfering in Greece. I am a citizen of the European Union, have the right to reside where I wish, and I regularly advise governments and the European Commission on these policy matters.

You are interfering as you impose your blind ideology to other blind ideologists and then you wonder why you all end up walking off the proverbial cliff together as you all are holding hands. Then you have the audacity to blame the “racists” as being too stupid to understand your enlightenment. No, I’m afraid you are the problem Martin as you do not understand world history, human nature, and many other aspects of what is a part of natural human instinct and existence. That is why your oppressive hate laws do not work, Martin. And why there is still endemic racism in the UK and why Greece is going from passive racism to violence. They go against human nature.

lol, it has. no one denies there have been other different ethnic groups living here over time, but Greek speaking groups have been the predominant group for most of the time since Mycanaean times.

Insofar as “labelling” a nation as racially intolerant is concerned, it is not my label. It is the clear result of all opinion polls ever conducted in Greece, and the general conclusion of Greek academic scholarship on the matter. I also observe it with my close Greek friends [every one of them with a doctorate or masters degree), who think that their views are fine and are an expression of the freedom of speech to say, for example, ” I hate Pakistanis” etc. Do you think all of this should be concealed? I don’t.

By the way, I resent the comment that I am interfering in Greece. I am a citizen of the European Union, have the right to reside where I wish, and I regularly advise governments and the European Commission on these policy matters. If Greece doesn’t accept being part of the European framework, it should quit. So far, it has been very good at taking money and (deliberately) rather poor at implementing European laws and rules.

The Community Security Trust, the defense organization of Britain’s 300,000-strong Jewish community, last year saw nearly 600 anti-Semitic assaults, incidents of vandalism, cases of abuse, and threats against Jewish individuals and institutions—double the 2001 number. (This figure does not include attacks against Roma, blacks or other immigrants.) According to the police, Jews are four times more likely to be attacked because of their religion than are Muslims. Every synagogue service and Jewish communal event now requires guards on the lookout for violence from both British born Neo-Nazis and Muslim extremists. Orthodox Jews have become particular targets; some have begun wearing baseball caps instead of skullcaps and concealing their Star of David jewelry. Does this suggest that Britain is “intolerant” or that ALL British citizens are anti-Semitic?

Denying that high levels of uncontrolled immigration do not tear at the fabric of a country ignores reality and the historical record. I am an American of Greek descent. Americans are sometimes accused of intervening in the affairs of sovereign countries and imposing our views on those countries. It appears that we are not the only ones.

You wrote that there have been examples of successful multi-ethnic societies. I ask, kindly list them for me. The reason I ask is that I have yet to hear or read of one. Thanks in advance.