Life without Papers
Published by deviousdiva November 20th, 2007 in Immigration.Born in Greece to a Nigerian father and a Cameroonian mother, Catherine Ananois has waited 20 years for her adoptive country to even acknowledge her existence.
The young dancer is one of thousands of second-generation immigrants who feel Greek, speak Greek and pursue a Greek education but are helpless against a state bureaucracy and laws that still deny them Greek citizenship
This is not a new story but it’s still heart-breaking to read personal experiences of living without papers. In her own words, Catherine explains her position here in Greece and how she is affected by its archaic laws.
When I was 16, I had to obtain a certificate to enroll in a school exam. That’s when I realised I’m a person without a country. I have no papers, not even a birth certificate.
She cannot travel outside the country. She cannot get a driver’s license. She cannot even open a bank account. I cannot begin to imagine how it feels to be living in such a precarious position in the country you were born in.
I managed to get a document, of sorts, that helps with police checks and is supposed to entitle me to a temporary residence permit. But even that’s not sure, and I’ve had enough of this business
Read the whole article at google news.
Technorati: greece, birth certificate, children,
This article, and another on Agence Press France, gives stupid figures from the Greek state on persons born in Greece without Greek citizenship. Here are the correct figures [approximate numbers], not yet published:
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Census 2001 results:
total non-Greek citizens born in Greece = 120,000
[Albanians, 44,000; USA, 14,000; Aus, 9,000)
*
Births in Greece 2005:
non-Greeks = 18,000
[Albanians, 11,000; Bulgarians, 1,000]
*
similar data for 2004 births, so assuming that the foreign birth rate is constant 2001-2007, the total number of persons born in Greece in 2007 should be 120,000 + 6(18,000)
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which is approximately 220,000 [of all ages] with Albanians at around 110,000
Thanks for that Martin Baldwin-Edwards.
im very sorry to say this..
but if it is any consolation to Catherine (i am sure it isnt)
most of us greeks , with papers ,
sure feel that this is NOT OUR COYNTRY
EITHER.
This country is bankrupt in civil goverment
and social issues of all measures , for all peoples
with papers or not.
because we havent decided
yet what ,
what kinda of psychotherapy greece as a country NEEDS.
socially and politically
TO CHANGE,,,,
COURAGE AND YΠΟΜΟΝΗ………………………=Z=
Zardoz the communist wouldn’t know what ‘courage’ was if it hit him in the face.
Courage is Hellas. Zardoz is a communist, not a Hellene, his allegiance is to Marx, not the country of Achilles, Digenis and Metaxas.
Welcome back Zardoz. I’ve missed your unique comment style.
I am very interested to know how Greeks think that this can be changed and improved. Who is capable of stepping up and making reforms ? Do you think that Greece can become a socially responsible country? And if so, how ?
AgainstCommunism, I just don’t see the point of calling everyone who disagrees with you, a communist. It really doesn’t help your argument to fall into that trap. Let’s try and stick with the issues in the posts rather than trying to insult other people who comment here.
Martin Baldwin-Edwards, by whom are these “correct” figures… not yet published? Puh-leez, just because the official figures are not worth believing, it does not mean that anything else is worth believing, heh?
Greek laws are incomplete and have holes in them so that the authorities can be bribed and so that the politicians can do what is known as “rousfeti”. (The word comes from turkish “rüsvet” and means “favor”, especially favor by a politician in return for a promise to vote them.) And the entire public sector is organized in such a way that anything can be accomplished by “rousfeti”: If something in the law is unclear, it can be made clear by an “order from above”. If an order “from above” violates the law or the regulations, it is the “order from above” which always takes precedence. If the cogs of the bureaucratic machine are rusty, an order “from above” will always oil them and get them to move on. This is, by the way, how the greek term “Λάδωμα” (ladoma) meaning “oiling” was coined to mean “bribery”.
So, the politicians see no reason to fix the laws when any deficiencies can be taken care of at any time by means of “rousfeti”. Ha! You thought you knew how a corrupt state works? You really know nothing until you begin to understand how the government and the public sector works in Greece!
So, Catherine can either try to work with the system, or fight it, or just give up, as she is already indicating to be inclined to do, judging by her last sentence.
Working with the system would mean trying to get a “rousfeti” as many Greeks would. (Some say these are the stupid, backwards, lame-in-the-mind Greeks. They say that they are the clever Greeks, and anyone who does not use the system to their benefit is stupid.) Now, unfortunately, immigrants are oh-so-useless from the point of view of votes, and therefore quite unlikely to ever get a “rousfeti”, even if they wished to have one, so this kind of complicates things for Catherine: she needs to find a “benefactor”, who is Greek, (and therefore a voter,) who knows how these things work, and who is inclined to ask a pig–I mean politician for a “rousfeti” on her behalf. I would do it, if I knew how these things work, but I guess I belong to the stupid Greeks.
Fighting the system would imply starting with a good lawyer. Good luck.
Giving up? I do not know whether it is possible for her to give up.
Reply to Diagoras:
The figures are the calculations I gave which are derived from official figures [and fairly reliable] from the Census and registered births. This is a standard scientific procedure which all EU countries follow other than Greece, because the Greek state employs unqualified persons [through corrupt appointments systems] who are not scientists but call themselves such.
I disagree strongly with the ridiculous notion that anyone should get involved with Greek lawyers. It is easier and quicker to throw your money down the drain, and has the same result.
The problems with Greece are, in order of importance: corruption, corruption and corruption. The first is of the state and its institutions [including the Church]; the second is of the political parties; the third is of civil society generally. As the disease is throughout the country, and especially is how the rich became rich here, there is no solution even theoretically possible.
Dear against communism,,
1)”Courage is Hellas”….
WERE EXACTLY ? GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF GREEK COURAGE..?
2)”Zardoz is a communist, not a Hellene”,
GOTTA A BONA FIDE PASSPORT OF THE GREEK GOVERMENT CIRCA 1965
(you know the one that said KINGDOM OF GREECE )
I AM SPARTAN AND MANIOT AND OF THE ROYAL LINES OF KING KONSTANNTIN
PALAIOLOGOS OF THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE,,,you are what ?
3)”his allegiance is to Marx”
my allegiance is to the human race
respecting eaches individual for his differences
social and political and historical values which can help all to live together
in peace respecting our different way’s of living.
4)”not the country of Achilles, Digenis and Metaxas.”
achilles and digenis are mythical persona that i have accepted thru my upbringing
in greece to accept as …supposedly our history.And world history thru homer and byzantine fairytales.
metaxas is that great bavarian family which in 1840 made the first brewery
and imported the from france the knowhow to make the worldrenound
METAXAS BRANDY AND CONGAC “FIVE STARS”.
Then of course there is IOANNIS METAXAS
The soldier turned politician turned dictator of greece from 1936 to his death 1941
with the beggining of italian-greek war.
the fascist dictator , very good friend of hitl ,er and mussoli ni
who tried to change the greek peolpe into fascists and to join the axis
on the side na zi germany and fasc ist italy.
. PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND YOU
IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE WRITING ABOUT
MY SUGGESTION IS YOU GO BACK TO READING AND SOCIALIZING
WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW THESE AREAS AND PERSONA
TO DISCOVER YOURSELF , ON ANOTHER LEVEL .
IF NOT ,,
DONT WORRY .
IM PERSONALLY TRAINING WITH LIVE AMMUNITION
TARGETING GARBAGE OPINIONS ,
SUCH AS YOURS WHICH HAVE NO SUBSTANCE OF GREEK HEREDITARY I.Q.
P.S.
DO YOU THINK CATHERINE’S PLIGHT OF NOT HAVING ANY PAPERS FOR 20 YEARS
MIGHT ,
HAVE ANY SIMILARITIES
WITH KING ULUSSES TWENTY YEAR PLIGHT FROM TROY TO ITHACA
THINK ARE PUNISHING HER
AS THEY DID ULUSSES
THINK OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY
AND THINK OF THE PLIGHT OF ALL
HAS ANYTHING ,,REALLY CHANGED……..? =Z=
DEAR DD
1) ” Greeks think that this can be changed and improved. Who is capable of stepping up and making reforms ? ”
ON A POLITICAL LEVEL AND GOVERMENT LEVEL , VERY LITTLE CAN BE DONE
AND ONLY SMALL MEASURES SCRATCING THE SURFACE .
AS THE MAN ABOVE SAYS:
ITS CORRUPTION ,, NOT ON A POLITICAL PARTY OR GOVERMENT LEVEL
THAT HINDER PROGRESS
BUT OUR OWN CORRUPTION (THE GREEK PEOPLE )
IN THE ENTIRE NATION
SOCIAL EDUCATION AND GOOD EXAMPLES
ARE RARE AND DROWN IN THE CORRUPTION WHICH IS EVERYWERE
EVEN A CIVIL WAR WOULDNT SOLVE ANYTHING
PEOLPE ARE TAKING SIDES , TO SURVIVE ,
WITH THE SYSTEM AS IS.
FORSAKING THEIR FUTURE AND THEIR CHILDRENS FOR SMALL GAINS OF TODAY
THIS OF COURSE IS CRIMINAL
AS IS THE COMMENTATOR ABOVE WHO
IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF ALL OF THE ABOVE.
HE FORGETS THAT CATHERINES PROBLEM
NEEDS A SOLUTION …………………………………………NOW
AS DOES HIS PROBLEMS ,, HOW WILL HE SOLVE THEM …?
YOU SEE WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER TO ALLY AND GIVE SOLUTIONS OF ALL KINDS.
2) Do you think that Greece can become a socially responsible country?
And if so, how ?
THERE ARE LOCAL AND REGIONAL PROBLEMS THAT ARE BEING SOLVED
BY LOCAL LEADERS AND PEOPLE (AND NO THEIR NOT ALL COMMUNIST )
AND VERY RESPONSIBLE
BUT SINCE THE MEDIA IS GARBAGE
THE GOOD EXAMPLES ARE NOT KNOWN
TAKE THE SUPPOSED PROBLEM IN CRETE IN ZONIANA WITH THE MARIJUANA MAFIA
EVERYBODY THERE IS ON THE TAKE
POLITICIANS
POLIZ
LOCAL LEADERS
WHO GETS STIFFLED , THE FARMERS=TURNED MOBSTERS
CULTIVATING THE STUFF
THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 30 YEARS AT LEAST ,,
THE WAY IT IS BEING HANDLED IS MUCH WORSE THAN ITS SOLUTION
WHICH IS SIMPLE
LEGALIZE THE WHOLE LOT , LIKE HOLLAND , ORGANIZE YOUR SOCIETY FOR ITS USE
AND MAKE AMERICAN TOYRISTS VERY HAPPY
NO CRIME
—– NO PEOPLE ON THE TAKE
—-PEOPLE WHO USE WILL BE LOOKED AFTER . ECT.
GOOD EXAMPLE
SEE THIS PROBLEM FOR FARMERS IN THE TOWNSHIP OF POTAMIA, LARISA
WHEN THEY COULDNT PRODUCE ANYMORE,COTTON AND OTHER TRADITIONAL
CULTIVATIONS
CAME UP WITH THE IDEA TO MAKE CIGARS NOT CIGARETES ,,GREAT BIG CIGARS
CUBAN STYLE ,,
SO THEY STYDY THE SITUATION
TAKE LENGHTY TRIPS TO CUBA AND DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
COME TO AN AGREEMENT
WITH THE LOCAL’S THERE AND LEARN HOW TO MAKE CIGARS
(THEIR PRETTY GOOD TOO)
IN THE TOWN OF POTAMIA , THE FARMERS START CULTIVATING THE FIELDS
WITH TOBBACCO FOR CIGARS
THE DRY HOUSES GET READY ,,,
AND WOWWWWWWW
THREE YEARS LATER THEIR MAKING 347,000 CIGARS PER MONTH
WITH PENDING ORDERS FROM DUBAI AND THE ARAB EMIRATES FOR
ONE MILLION UNITS PER MONTH
ITS ALL ECONOMICS
ARE WE ALL EQUAL ………..NO ,,,,THEN ,,,,,
ALL HELL IS BOUND TO GET LOOSE SOONER OR LATER . =Z=
One word: RACIST
I heard this joke once about Greece being the birthplace of democracy. Funny.
bollybutton: the version you heard definitely is a joke!
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The correct historical version is that the city-state of Athens instituted a form of governance by [a small part of] its citizenry, which was quite advanced for its time [over 2,000 years ago]. Subsequently, Athens declined and by 1820 was little more than a village populated by a few uneducated Albanian-speaking peasants.
*
The link between Greece and ancient Athens is archaeological only, but the peasants of Greece have managed to convince themselves that they are of the same intellectual calibre as Platon, Aristotle, Pythagoras, inter alia.
She is not of Greek descent and therefore should be given the same rights.
She should not be given the same rights. When one is not part of a community there must be some penalty.
This blog attracts lamers the way a lump of sugar attracts files.
legein, you make no sense. There are so many things wrong with your “corrected” AND uncorrected comments that I don’t know what to say to you.
How on earth are you going to arrange who can enjoy what rights based on your “philosophy” ? And what do you mean by community here ? As far as I can see, all people are part of a community. It may not be the same one as yours (and in my case I would say, thank goodness) but it is still a community.
If you had applied your “idea” to Greek people in say…America, Australia, Britain, Africa… what do you think would have been the reaction ? Or can’t you think that hard ?
*DD bangs head very hard on the keyboard*
I’ll be back later. I need a cup of tea…
DD, for certain individuals like “AgainstCommunism” and “legein” I would recommend to you to seriously consider the following excerpt which I am translating from the “terms of use” of my blog:
“Your right to leave comments does not imply an obligation on my behalf to respond to them”
Greece the birthplace of Democracy and civilization???
Well, I’ve been reading that actually black people in Africa were around before Greeks ever were and had very modern civilizations for that time.
Here’s a quote to consider from Rev Al Sharpton:
“White folks was in caves while we (Blacks) was building empires. We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it”
– Rev. Al Sharpton, cited in Democrats Do the Dumbest Things
We have different definitions of community. The concept of community is different in multiracial nation states such as the United States, Australia and ones like Greece which were created to provide refuge for the Greek people who were just as oppressed as black people at one stage in history. In the former a community is centred around civic abstract values. In the latter the concept of community is centred around civic abstract values AND common descent. In the former any persons can partake in the community as along as they respect the civic values. In the latter a persons can partake in the community if they respect the civic values and they belong to the same ethnic group, speaks a common language etc. There are many markers. This is not to say we do not respect guests as this runs counter to our cultural values. The rights of every individual are important but we must also not forget the rights of a community. This body of people also have rights.
Reverend Al Sharpton’s comments are offensive. He should be more respectful towards others and they may have more respect for him. Reverend Al Sharpton is not a historian nor is he an archeologist. The best academies in the world have found no evidence to support his claims. Until they do then us ordinary people must accept the academies claims. Obviously, the academies claims do not mean that every modern living Greek is a better philosopher and mathematician than every modern black people of Africa. We should avoid politicising history and archeology too much because the consequences are severe. For example, various despicable regimes through history have attempted to do this; most notably, demonising another ethnic group to justify acts of oppression and brutality. Black people of Africa have a lot to be proud of without making false historical claims.
halleluia.!
I am not aware of any period when Greek people were oppressed. I am aware, of course, of the rewriting and falsification of history by modern Greeks.
*
Insofar as definition of community is concerned, there is no definition in Greece. What you have written, legein, is pure conjecture. Try to find a definition of Greekness in the Constitution or in the Nationality Code. The idea of common descent is laughable, as genetic analysis of modern Greeks shows: this is nationalist propaganda created in the 19th century.
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Greece has been a member of the European Community since 1981 and is expected to observe the common values of the rest of Europe and accept the principles of the European Convention on Human Rights and other fundamental human rights laws. It has been continuous Greek practice since the early 20th century to impose through political violence this idea of a Greek race, even over-riding international law on nationality and allegiance to a country. For example, American citizens with a Greek name who visit Greece are harassed and told they must do military service, when they have no relation to the Greek state.
*
This mentality disappeared for most countries along with Adolf Hitler: shame on you Greeks for continuing it. It is about time the lies and falsehoods about “race” were dropped and Greeks accepted being part of the real world.
Martin, there is a huge amount of evidence on the oppression of Greeks and other minorities under the Ottoman Empire. Obviously, you have not read widely enough.
The definition of community is the one that is commonly accepted by the citizens of those nation states referred to above. Obviously, these definitions change over time. This change may be wrought by State legislation or by a Gramscian hegemony of different interest groups. The latter is difficult to determine.
Currently, Greek citizenship requirements are strongly tilted towards people of Greek parentage. Serious genetic analysis does show some form of common descent. Obviously, this is not pure and no one on this earth can claim to be. It is a matter of degree. The original propaganda in the 19th century may have been part of the nationalist project but has subsequently been supported by scientific evidence.
Greece is a signatory to the European conventions above but it does not mean that it negates the drive to maintain a Greek identity. You refer to the Greek constitution. Article 108 states the following:
“The State must take care for emigrant Greeks and for the maintenance of their ties with the Fatherland. The State shall also attend to the education, the social and professional advancement of Greeks working outside the State.”
This does not sound like political violence nor harassment to me. It is something which if it was implemented would be very positive.
Your last assertion is false. Most nations on earth have some sort of bias towards people of common descent i.e. Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ethiopia etc. If I am not mistaken I think Greece is part of the real world.
Less polemics and more thoughtful discussion.
Hephaestos, you make the usual assumption amonst Greeks that you know better than others. My reading on the matter is very wide, and I speak with some authority on the recent hsitory of the Ottoman period and minorities.
The definition of community that you are all referring to does not exist in the case of Greeks; read the standard legal literature on Greek citizenship to see what a disgraceful mess the whole thing is. Insofar as scientidic evidence is concerned, please do not insult my intelligence: the standard scientific opinion is that there is no such thing as race, which is a socially constructed idea. Nowhere is this more true than in the case of Greeks, who are genetically as mixed up as any other European nationality.
The Greek Constitution, in its various versions, has nothing to say on any of these matters, as I told you, so I don’t know why you refer to it. Most of the relevant policy is contained in secret documents, which ordinary people never get to know about, or occasional Supreme Court judgements. Those Greeks who have had their citizenship removed, or who have been maltreated in various ways, can tell you about the results of the policies.
Insofar as bias is concerned, you can find racism everywhere if you look. However, the quality of Greek racism makes it unfit to be a member of the European Union and there is no intention of changing it. Iinstead, people like you spend our time telling us that “our knowledge is limited” or we “haven”t read widely enough” etc. These allegations, including ones of bias, are also directed at all the Greek scholars who write on these topics in any sort of independent fashion. Essentially, this is a country of propaganda and racist exclusion, and has not managed a transition into the modern world.
Dear Mr. Martin Baldwin-Edwards, I have had enough of you.
You are 33% bullshit, 33% unverifiable facts, and 33% known facts served with abundant rudeness and vile. Stop acting as if you have some axe to grind with Greece, or as if you are bitter because some hot greek lover stole your wife’s heart. Greece is the way it is for a number of reasons: being aggravated about it is silly, and being scornful about it in the face of Greek people is rude. If you cannot somehow help with the situation, then find something else to do. If you do not like Greece, go find a subject you like, and comment on that. If your life consists exclusively of finding things that you hate and writing comments to bitch and moan about them, then I would suggest that you should seek professional consultation.
Ahhh, the usual “if you don’t it like it, leave Greece” argument. We all know that one: thanks for your advice, but you know where you can shove it.
For your information, Diagoras, I do more to help with public policy than any of you Greeks. And I do not have an axe to grind, or any personal reasons to attack Greek policy. I do not think that my scientifically based observtions are silly, nor do the international organisations and governments which I advise.
I really don’t like the way this thread is going.
I really appreciate the discussion here but can we get back to the issue of the post rather than personal attacks against each other ? We are not fighting each other here. We are trying to find some solutions to the problems that we rub up against?
To end the discussion on this note would be sad. I believe it is OK to critisise Greece without falling into a trap.
How about we respect the fact that we are all intelligent people and are trying to find a common ground, a place where we can discuss the problems rather than attack each other ?
If we keep arguing like this, the issue will be lost.
And there are too many people in this situation to forget about what really counts.
Yes, I agree DD. I am sorry that it has descended into personal abuse. As you correctly point out, the problem here is about people born in Greece who do not have papers or associated rights. I can tell you that the Synigoros toy Politi has made some efforts to minimise the problem, but the real issue is one of access to Greek nationality. I believe that Papandreou has advocated this for second generation immigrants, but I am not sure about the details.
Some people reorder their values in a way unfamiliar to us. The key to empathy and understanding is that we may not completely agree with the views and actions of another but at least we can agree that we hold the same views reordered in another way.This way at least we can find some common ground - the distance between us is not so far. In this case I think everyone agrees that all humans have dignity and they should be respected. This includes black people and Greeks. Our respect for other people should not be given to only black people or Albanians but also to Greeks.
Martin, your tone is offensive and not really in the spirit of what you are trying to promote.
Some people born in Greece have no papers because they are not full members of the community. Of course basic medical care and schooling should be provided but not at the expense of the indigenous population. If 5000 Greeks moved onto an Indian reservation in Nevada and their children began to outnumber the local Indians what would you have to say? Is that okay for an indigenous population to be annihalated? Likewise Greeks are indigenous (or as indigenous as the Indians of North America) therefore they have certain rights as individuals and as a community. These rights should be respected. The choices they make as a community should be respected. The history they choose to teach their offspring should be respected. And extra national organisations or NGOs which I suspect you are a member of should respect the sovereignty of this body of people called the Greeks. This is even more important because you are not elected by anyone but are usually sponsored by large amounts of capital which makes it difficult for the ordinary Greek to compete with.
Lastly, philosophically you should realise that man (or woman) is not simply a rational animal but has deeply embedded emotional ties (sometimes construed as irrational) to certain symbols, signs, markers etc. The full range of man is a lot more complex than simple legalistc directives usually borne from positivistic worldview. You may find some of the emotional attachments by Greeks strange and dated but for most Greek people they do not feel complete unless they balance the rational with the emotional. Euripides’ Bacchae provides an almost perfect example of why we should not ignore the subtarenean desires that sometime drive our world. I suggest you read it.
I’m going to try not to offend anyone here, but I have noticed first hand that on a topic like this, if you left a bunch of modern thinking Greeks to discuss it, they would agree that the system is flawed and needs to be altered.
When a foreigner comments on this, the same Greeks will try to reassure you that nothing is wrong with the system. Whether it’s paranoia of a small country or national pride I don’t know. I have Greek friends who insisted I was wrong and that getting nationality was possible. It’s like hitting your head against a brick wall, because why would this be such an issue if it was as manageable as they say??
To the Greeks on this forum, please talk to us foreigners as if you would to Greeks, don’t resort to defence mode straight away. Maybe we don’t get the whole story, but you should help us rather than going to the other extreme of how this country does that or the other countries do whatever. I am not living in Australia which jails foreign immigrants or France where there were such violent riots in the slums, I am living in Greece, and I want to understand how Greece works through the eyes of a Greek. I’m not interested in the laws of other countries, I’m interested in the laws of Greece.
currently in the u.s., being born here grants one citizenship, no matter who your parents are. in the midst of a viciously racist immigration “debate” (which is most often positioned as having nothing to do with race and spoken of in terms of “legal” and “illegal”) there has also been talk of removing citizenship rights from those born in the u.s. to undocumented immigrant parents.
i don’t know much about modern greek history outside the context of the ottoman empire, which i studied in school. i do think it’s interesting that many of the same themes come up here in this thread that would come up in a thread discussing american immigration. i’m especially familiar with the “if you don’t like it, leave” tactic of shutting down discussion.
the fear of being outnumbered is also a concern expressed by white americans terrified by the “browning of america.” but it’s not intellectually sound to compare the genocide and subjugation of indigenous people in the u.s. (or anywhere else) committed by settlers with an expressed goal of cleansing native people from their land to greek citizens in greece where immigrants are coming because of war, poverty, etc. in their home lands–the reason is that they are not seeking to displace the current residents of greece, they are just attempting to survive.
“Subsequently, Athens declined and by 1820 was little more than a village populated by a few uneducated Albanian-speaking peasants.”
Firstly, what we define as the ‘Greek world’ had shifting cultural and commercial centers throughout it’s History. In the early part of the Greek History these were the Citadel cities of Mycanae et al. Then they became the major Poleis of mainland Greece: Athens, Sparta, Corinth and so on. Athenian ideals of democracy were flawed, too heavy a restriction on whom could enter the citizen body and so on, but they were ideals none the less. Tacitus for example mentions an author of the post-Augustan period during Tiberius’ reign at Rome that was put on trial before the full Senate for ‘blemishing the memory of the Divine Augustus’, the person in question claimed that: ‘As for the Athenians, I shall not speak of them, for they responded to Satire with Satire’. What is important is that in the early part of classical antiquity these ideals, however flawed they were, of freedom of expression (whether in an artistic sense or in terms of the spoken word, were laid down and discussed in an academic manner. Scoring cheap points at the advantage of a dead society to the advantage of our own is pathetic, and something I would expect of you.
From Alexader’s succession and the formation of the Hellenic League (and following on from his death and the ushering in of the Hellenistic Age) the major centers of Hellenism became Alexandria and the Poleis of Western Asia Minor (Ephesus for example). Athens nonetheless flourished until the 6th century when Justinian’s edicts pursued full scale Christianization. This led to another shift where the center of Hellenism, due to population movement more than anything else, became Constantinople, where it lasted until the 15th century.
Now, there is no historical evidence for any large scale migratory trends from Northern Illyria (a geographical expression for the upper western Balkans - where the Albanians came from) to mainland Greece itself throughout the Classical, Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine or early Modern times. So the inhabitants of Athens in the early 19th century, were, by and large, ethnically homogenous.
“I am not aware of any period when Greek people were oppressed.”
Again, utter rubbish. From the period of the Seljuk invasions into Asia Minor massacres were common, I speak here with the backing of leading Byzantologist Warren Treadgold who agrees that the Seljuks were part of a Imperialistic movement (Islam) that meant to wage war upon the ‘Kaffir’ until all ‘Shirk’ had been extinguished. Notice that any truce in Islamic jurisprudence is a ‘temporary’ truce. In Muslim legal theory theory Dar-Al-Harb and Dar-Al-Islam are at war until someone suggests otherwise, regardless of conditions involved.
Now. In addition wide scale massacres upon the populations of Asia Minor during this period we have continued aggression in areas such as Cyprus in the 17th century, where half of the population of Paphos was believed to have been killed. Other massacres took place periodically in the Balkans too. From the 19th century onwards Ottoman massacres of Christian subject populations became more and more common. Edwin Pears for example, the eminent Historian the later Greek Empire and scholar on the conditions of subject peoples under the authority of the Sultan claimed that certain illiterate Christian Syrian populations used to reckon time by ’such and such many moons since such and such massacre’ because they had become so common.
More disturbingly, during the War of Independence, probably somewhere in the region of 350,000 Greek non-combatants were killed, many of them in the Chios massacre. The local Beys would organize ‘Greek hunts’ in which they hunted captives on horseback and cut them down with their scimitars.
This is of course to say nothing of the 20th century oppression, be it in Smyrna or the Istanbul Pogrom of 1955 or Cyprus.
I would like to take this opportunity also to speak to the Greeks who promote this blog and support what DD does.
Do you want to associate yourselves with a man like ‘Martin Baldwin-Edwards’? Why no criticism of his repeated racism and his insufferable superiority complex?
“nor do the international organisations and governments which I advise.”
Oh, I’d be very, very careful of repeatedly bringing this up. I’ve already collected a pretty extensive collection of your quotes on Greeks. If you are indeed advising the Greek Government on policy matters then *I* would advise you desist your moronic posturing before I speak to people whom *I* know in the Ministry of the Interior.
I am not going to respond to the nationalist falsified history expounded by an undergraduate student such as AgainstCommunism. To Bollybutton, I will say this: note that at no point [until just now] did I make any personal remarks about the people whose offensive views have appeared on this blog. However, the reaction of many of the Greeks here [not all] is to attack me personally, and imply that I have no learning, and that it is I who am actually the racist and not they.
*
Personal attacks like this are characteristic of Balkan peasants, which is what most Greeks are, and there is no possibility to have a polite rational discourse. You will influence Greek policy only by humiliating and abusing the people who support it, in my experience. It is a sad comment.
Μωρη αντικομμουνα
την επομενη φορα που θα κατσω σε ταβερνα στα ανω λιοσια
η στο μενιδι , η στο προδρομο , η βαγια βοιωτιας
θα θυμηθω να πω σε ολους τους ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΕΣ
οτι δεν προερχονται απο την northern illyria
Στους μελαμψους μανιατες στο καραβοστασι και στην νομια της
μανης , θα τους αποκλεισω οτι προερχονται (οι τελευταιες 7 γενιες )
απο αλγερι και κρητες
στην αλικαρνασσο της της κρητης και σε καποια χωρια της νησου κω
θα αποκλεισουμε οτι ειναι καμποσες γενιες απο τα βαθη
του αιζερμπαιτζαν ,,,
ΣΥΝΗΛΘΕ ΚΑΚΟΜΟΙΡΗ
Η ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΜΑΣ ΞΕΠΕΡΑΣΕ , ΜΗΝ ΤΗΝ ΞΕΦΤΙΛΙΖΕΙΣ
ΒΑΣΙΣΟΥ ΣΤΑ ΚΑΛΑ ΣΤΟΙΧΕΙΑ , ΣΤΟ ΤΙ ΜΠΟΡΕΙ ΝΑ ΕΙΧΑΜΕ
ΚΑΙ ΔΕΣ ΤΙ ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΦΤΙΑΧΤΕΙ ,
ΓΙΑ ΝΑΧΟΥΜΕ ΜΕΛΛΟΝ ……………………..ΑΙΝΤΕ……………….=Ζ=
“I am not going to respond to the nationalist falsified history expounded by an undergraduate student such as AgainstCommunism.”
You stated in a previous post you will not debate History at all, because you have no qualification in the field. The burden of proof is on you, not me, it is not a ‘nationalist’ version of History to state that the Greek World had differing cultural and commercial centers throughout it’s existence. Nor is it nationalist to claim that there is no evidence of significant migratory patterns in mainland Greece (particularly Attica) from Northern Illyria.
The Massacres of the Ottomans are not ‘falsified’, we have German documentation of the Armenian Genocide for example, we have independent verification of the Massacre at Chios as well. These matters are not up for debate, nor have they ever been, because the majority of Ottoman massacres occurred in the 19th century and thus there is ample documentary proof for what occurred.
Posturing indifference to what are basically strawmen (’nationalist histories’) as a way to avoid debate is not a valid tactic I am afraid.
“Personal attacks like this are characteristic of Balkan peasants, which is what most Greeks are”
Is this a poor attempt at humorous juxtaposition or another example of your own stupidity?
If DD cares about those who support her blog, and I will readily admit I disagree with the majority of what she writes, then she will eject this individual from the comments section as he seems to be irritating a lot of people.
@zardoz
The Arvanites never constituted a significant percentage of the total population of the area. Whatsmore, they actively self-identify as Greeks. I never claimed the Greek race was totally ‘pure’, it’s status throughout history has been cultural and linguistic affiliation moreso than strong ethnic affiliation, though the two have gone hand in hand.
Furthermore it must be noted that the Greek language has never been subjected to a protracted period of bastardization that usually follows large scale migrations into areas where it is spoken comparable to the likes of other European languages and their histories.
I’d just like to say that I heard the cutest thing about Greeks. Can anyone weigh in.
The saying was:
Greeks are the smartest people in the world. Just ask them and they will tell you it’s so.
(plus they are modest??)
I am not going to be threatened by a juvenile delinquent. I conduct myself in a legal and democratic manner, and I publish my scientific work in learned journals and elsewhere.
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As far as the Greek state is concerned, I can tell you that enormous amounts of money are spent on illegal appointments and particularly appointments of unqualified personnel as “scientists”. The Interior Ministry knows perfectly well what I am talking about, as I presented this issue to the European Parliament some time ago and they have been told to account for their illegal activities.
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DD, I think it would be best to ban people who make personal threats on your blog. I am not afraid to state my opinions under my own name, but many people are. The lack of real freedom of speech in Greece is very evident when we see threats like this.
AGAINST COMMUNISM
“nor do the international organisations and governments which I advise.”
Oh, I’d be very, very careful of repeatedly bringing this up. I’ve already collected a pretty extensive collection of your quotes on Greeks. If you are indeed advising the Greek Government on policy matters then *I* would advise you desist your moronic posturing before I speak to people whom *I* know in the Ministry of the Interior.
ABOUT THE ABOVE
BECAUSE IN TRUE FASCIST MANNER
WHICH DEPRIVES ALL DEMOCRATIC GREEKS AND ALL CLEAR THINKING PEOPLE
THE RIGHT
TO PARTICIPATE ON THE INTERNET DEMOCRATICALLY
AND OF FREE OBLIGATIONS
WITH OUT HAVING TO BE ASSAULTED BY THE SSNET POLICE
WEARING HOODS
SUCH AS YOURSELF
BE ADVISED
THAT I ALREADY MENTIONED THAT I AM A MANIOT
YOU VERY WELL UNDERSTAND
THAT MY COUSINS ARE ALREADY WERE YOU WILL GO .
TO SUPPOSEDLY SPEAK WITH .
COME TO YOUR SENSES WE HAVE MORE DIFFICULT
THINGS AT HAND ,
LIKE MAKEDONIA FYROM
OIL AND TURKEY
ITALIAN IMPORTS
ECONOMICS …ECT ECT
THE INTERNET IS OPEN BOOK
BE CAREFUL WHO YOU WEILD A STICK AT
THE DIVA HAS EVERY RIGHT TO
LET HER VOICE BE HEARD ON ALL MATTERS
AS DO ALL OF US
MAKE THIS PERSONAL AND YOU LOSE
SEE THE BIG PICTURE (BECAUSE WERE ALL IN IT ) ….AND WIN
………………………………….
……………………………………
…………………………………….YOUR CALL
…………………………………………………..REMEMBER OTSALAN.? =Z=
“The lack of real freedom of speech in Greece is very evident when we see threats like this.”
Britain just came bottom of a surveillance society report.
Greece came near top.
To MARTIN: I see you are an expert on this type of discussion. Interesting indeed. I saw your website at migrants.gr.
At any rate, have you ever done any research on the Greek people and their anti-Americanism? I hear all the typical Greek stereotypical answers on why, but their governments don’t seem necessarily anti-American so I’m wondering how this strange symbiotic relationship lives on.
On one hand, the Greek people are quick to blame the Jews and Americans for everything including the Fires in the Peloponese, vodafone bugging scandal, Tsunamis, and even Alien invasions from outer space, but on the other hand their Greek Governments are very friendly to America and continue to support us in anything we need, even if they have to occasionally “WINK” at the USA at times while spouting necessary anti-American comments in the biased Greek media to lull the sheep of Greece.
And let me say to those who may think I’m criticizing Greece and don’t like Greece. It’s not TRUE. I’ve lived in Greece for many years and enjoy many nice things about Greece. I’m just tired of Greek conspiracy theories that blame America for all their ills when internal reflection may be more appropriate.
Finally, I CHOSE to live here. You Greeks have to live here (i.e., family ties, intolerance/sensitivity/inflexibility to living anywhere else other than Greece etc…)
DD, Sorry this is off-topic, but I’d like to read more on specific research you may have done on US-Greek relations..
One could justify anything on the grounds of “primordial sovereignty”/autochthony, but to my understanding, all political philosophy on this issue deems autochthony to be a myth. In any case, it is a feeble argument when presented to defend the violation and suffering of human beings.
The autochthony myth is often used in Australia, too.
Not a big fan of LAOS but judging by the “dialogue” of some of the posters on this site I believe we are fortunate that there are other voices now being heard in the Greek political mainstream. Let’s hope that certain parts of the media and other influential institutions become more democratic and allow other viewpoints and ultimately other actions to form. The neoliberal consensus, which is largely propagated by both major parties, has become the dominant ideology for far too long. Inevitably, power corrupts and now people who purport to be liberally minded are increasongly becoming autocratic or just offensive. Discussions with some astute observers in Greece tell me it is not surprising that the burgeoning middle class have been tolerate of some of the more extreme elements. The relatively strong economic times have helped this. However, when the good times start coming to end end (which they invariably will) and coupled with the growing indebtdness this increasingly stronger voting block will seek to protect what it has built in recent times. We kind of have two choices. People can continue to shout past each other whereas society becomes increasingly splintered and bitter. Clever demagogues and populists exploit the insecurities of the middle class and the fear of real and imaginary enemies i.e. openDemocracy. Or people actually try to work sensibly and in a piecemeal fashion towards practical solutions. Essentially, everyone has a responsibility to listen to everyone else, be decent and be little more thoughtful.
Can we please bring the discussion back to the original issue of people who are unable to obtain a birth certificate (and therefore unable to enjoy the normal rights of a citizen living in a European country). The ancient history discussions are not relevant here. The issue is about government policy NOW and how it is affecting thousands of people right NOW.
The question for me is, how is it possible for a person to be unable to obtain a birth certificate (which is simply a legal document that states where and when a person was born) after 20 years of being in Greece? It is not a question of nationality. Becoming a Greek citizen is an altogether different and complicated process.
Why it is SO hard to issue that document?
I am extremely fed up with the fact that any discussion about problems with the Greek system fall back into the usual spouting about history. Get over it. This is not about how great Greece was in the past, it is about what it is going to do about the mess it is in now and what it will do in the future.
I understand that it is often easier to look back at the old glories of Greece than it is to face the present day reality but don’t you think it is time to move on ?
And stop threatening people. I don’t care who is doing it, who started it or who said what. The personal attacks on people have to stop. We cannot have any kind of discussion if people are prevented from stating their point of view for fear of being threatened. Stop it.
Freedom of speech is one thing. I have allowed everyone here to state their opinion. But I draw the line at attacking each other. That is trampling on someone else’s freedom and that is not freedom, it’s bullying.
Thank you.
DD
What I find troublesome is the constant assertion that people who lack papers are somewhow automatically unworthy around this verys trong idea of genetic purity hid as nationalism.
Also that having papers makes for more of a government problem. As if being able to organize and track folks is something that governments just don’t do.
A NEw York politician introduced teh idea of alllowing undocumented people to get driver’s liscense’s. SO that car accidents could be processed properly and people could at least feel safe on teh road without fear of police retaliation.
People said no. Peopel would rather risk their lives on the street than allow a n immigrant a moments peace.
Thats frightening
Devious Diva, we cannot ignore history. It informs the present and future. How about if someone proposed absoloutely no assistance for Roma because they are lazy and dirty. Justifiably, you would say but they are like that because of misjustices of the past and we need to correct for it. In that case aren’t you using history? We cannot use history when it suits us and not use it when it does not suit us. That stance lacks integrity.
The failure to obtain a birth certificate appears to be an administrative issue. No one can really answer that unless ssomeone is a member of the relevant government ministry.
Does Greece have a deliberate policy of not issuing birth certificates? As far as I know it does not. So insinuations about racism are mere speculation. Many things do not work in Greece and maybe this is one of them.
By the way a friend of mine over here recently got issued a passport and citizenship papers in four weeks. They have never lived in Greece for more than a few months. Obviously, they are of Hellenic descent.
Specifically on-topic: DD and others, I was informed a year ago when I informally discussed this with the Synigoros tou Politi that the issue of a paper for registering a birth in Greece has now been resolved. But that piece of paper is not worth very much, because of Greek nationality law. By more than a few years old, it is essential for everyone to have a nationality and the appropriate documents: children born in Greece of parents with some nationalities [mainly African countries] have been left without nationality.
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So, in fact, this comes down to Greek nationality law. In every single European country of the EU (15) other than Greece, even in Germany, the children of immigrants have the automatic right to the nationality of that country — either at birth, or after a few years of residence. Greece refuses to do this, because it believes in the concept of “race” and the importance of the Greek “race”. At the same time it gives Greek nationality free and almost immediately to homogeneis, other than those from Albania and Turkey.
:
:
Off-topic: Scorpion — I have no relation to the website http://www.migrants.gr, but they have posted much of my published work there. I am director of a research centre in Panteion University, with an out-of-date website http://www.mmo.gr [we cannot chnage the page!] and technically I am employed by an intergovernmental agency outside of Greece and owned by European governments.
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Your question about anti-Americanism and Greece is not confined to Greece: many countries of the world, even the UK, have populations who are opposed to US policy but whose governments ignore public opinion. The clearest case is perhaps that of Pakistan. It shows that the concept of democracy has failed the peoples of those countries, and that there is merely a facade of accountability of governments to their peoples.
Martin,
Thanks for the quick reply. So, the question is why do governments ignore their citizens in favor of the US Govt. Is it because these same governments are indeed smarter and “in the know” instead of the masses led by a biased media?
Scorpion: this is really off-topic and DD may not be happy with us, but briefly: in my opinion (and I am not expert for this area) the links between certain governments of the world are stronger and more important than the links between those governments and their citizens. Thus, many governments have a better understanding of each other than they do of their own country: this is particularly true of Foreign Ministries.
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Insofar as governments being “smarter” is concerned, I see the opposite: far too many policies are made in ignorance and with open contempt for both scientific advice and public opinion. The mess over the last years with the European Constitution [now a treaty which is ratified] is a good example. Another would be the invasion of Iraq. These and other events reveal a crisis of democracy and accountability across the western world.
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I hope this helps to answer your question a little.
See, this is deeply disturbing to me (people being born in Greece and not able to have citizenship; although the level to which ‘discussion’ descends is not undisturbing). First of all, it is shocking that this is happening anywhere in the world- and apparently because of racism/nationalism. But also I think that the situation in Greece is not unlike that which some would like to have in the United States. Already parents who don’t have papers can be ripped away from their children who are citizens, having been born here. So I know that the right wing would love to take the next step and demonize, dehumanize, and deport those who are born to undocumented immigrants. Which, given that we are almost entirely a nation of immigrants, is not only ironic but horrifying. In the modern world I think it’s pretty hard to be a nation without immigrants. We as people need to face any issues that this brings– and REAL ones, not the fake scare tactics that immigrants are draining our social resources! and I pay taxes for their kids to go to the hospital! etc etc– instead of planting our heads in the sand and hoping ‘those’ people will go away.
the thing worth questioning is why the nation/state take priority over its citizens. A person doesn’t legally exist these days until they have papers from the nation/state ‘proving’ that they do–and I can’t help but wondering at that power dynamic there–shouldn’t it be the opposite? shouldn’t the nation/state exist because citizens say it does? rather that citizens existing because the nation/state says they do?
Martin, are you certain that Greece believes in the concept of race and the importance of Greek race? Are there any documents which explicitly state this? Or is your assertion primarily based on speculation or even worse confirmation bias?
If you let me speculate a little myself. Potentially Greece is concerned about the concept of allegiance not race. Human beings usually have allegiance to their next of kin and as an extension of this to their ethnic kin. This is undeniable - despite people trying to push a normative view of human nature. Therefore, they may extend nationality to those who it believes would have a stronger allegiance to the laws and customs of Greece. The strength of the allegience is two way. Firstly, the citizen has allegiance to his fellow citizens. It is entirely possible for a black person from Sudan to develop a very strong allegience to the Greek people. However, it is more likely this allegience will be based on economic expediency rather than a deep appreciation of the struggles of the nation. Therefore, their allegience is unlikely to be as strong. Obviously, we are referring to a distribution here and there many be cases where a black person from Sudan has stronger allegience than a Greek from old Peloponesian stock. Secondly, the citizens have an allegience to the black person from Sudan. His fellow citizens are unlikely to accept this person as one of them to the same extent as a Greek born in the United States largely due to the reasons given above and their physical appearance. This is the case even if the Greek from the United States hardly knows a word of Greek and the black person Sudan can read Palamas because every Greek knows that if the Greek American spent enough time in Greece he would pick up the language. Aesthetics play an important role in human social relations. In comparison, a Bulgarian will have a stronger allegience to the Greek people because of their closer affinity in cultural terms and physical appearance. Therefore, not only is the allegiance of the Sudanese more tenuous but also the allegiance of the citizenry more tenuous towards him. In a country which is faced with some real (and sometimes imaginary threats) - remember the Cassus Belli and its long and arduous history for survival - allegiance is important. Greece appears to implement a humanistic policy of attempting to provide space for Greek culture and customs to continue to endure. To achieve this they need the allegience of the people to this project and each other. As a fellow humanist (which I suspect you are) you would agree this is an admirable project. Obviously, we should not treat people not included in this project with disrespect. They should be given shelter and a helping hand until they are fit enough to return to their homes and communities and help to rebuild them. Furthermore, hopefully their time spent in Greece would have cultivated an emotional attachment to Greece, its customs and its people and in the process Greece has made new friends. Recently, I met a Kurdish tax driver who lived in Athens for ten years and eventually migrated to another country. He told me he had never met such wonderful and helpful people as the Greeks. I hope that the Greeks welcome back these people with open arms whenever they like to revisit Greece and relive those memories.
You keep referring to the EU. As far as I can tell many EU nations are now reassing their naturalisation and immigration policies. Even relatively liberal Netherlands has made some changes. These policies are in a state of flux - now more than ever. We cannot be certain that their policies may come to resemble Greek policies in the near term. Therefore, it is difficult to expect Greece to move in lockstep with other EU nations (not that it is required to anyway) because they themselves are changing their laws. It is entirely possible that the EU nations may move closer to the direction of Greece. I suspect your job is getting more difficult in Europe as it would have if you were based in Russia. More broadly, people are reassessing the role played by NGO’s and the sometimes negative impact they have on the cohesion of society and the democratic system.
legein: my comments are based on official documents, the published research of Greece’s few serious lawyers, and decisions of the Supreme Court. You should note that very few Greek academics in the area disagree with the sort of conclusions I presented.
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Your own position, as stated above, is a modern view on the meaning of citizenship and I have no dispute with it. Actually, it is also the older historical view of countries like the UK which always viewed foreigners with great suspicion, but gave immediate nationality to children born there and rapid nationality to people who fit into the community [after 5 years, these days]. [Thatcher tried to remove all that, of course]
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Insofar as policy trends in Europe is concerned, the situation is far from simple. I do not expect non-experts to be aware of what is going on. I will try to summarise it, although even my own expertise has its limits when dealing with 27 EU countries.
(1) All of northern Europe has since about 1990 allowed easy naturalisation of the second generation and dual nationality in most cases.
(2) All of southern Europe has made it more difficult to get citizneship since the mid-1990s, although the other southern countries treat second generation migrants better than Greece does
(3) All EU countries have become hysterical about illegal migration; in the 1990s it was asylum-seekers; before that it was legal labour migrants….. Reach your own conclusions!
(4) Some northern EU countries, notably Denmark and Holland, have been politically managed by the [extreme?] right for some time. They have become obsessed with issues which seem to relate to skin colour and the Muslim religion. This general fascist direction is not supported by much of the EU, with some excpetions like Poland.
(5) Regardless of the negative trends, no country even dares talk about race [or imply it]. This is because after the experience of Hitler, and with modern genetics showing that we are all exactly the same species [except that those who migrated out of Africa millennia ago lost their d