Immigrant Integration
Published by deviousdiva October 29th, 2007 in Immigration.Yet another study shows that Greece is one of the worst countries in Europe for immigrants. Bad policies and bureaucracy makes life extremely difficult for people trying to obtain residency permits and citizenship. The report looked at six specific areas affecting immigrant integration into European countries:
Their rights in the workplace.
Opportunities for permanent residence.
Access to nationality.
Family reunification.
Legislation aimed at combating racism and discrimination
Political participation.
Miltos Pavlou, a member of the Hellenic League of Human Rights said
Greece is the only country that does not have a special policy for the second generation. Policy in other European countries is more favourable, even for the first-generation immigrants… Portugal does not charge an application fee if the [immigrant] is below the low-income level.
From the Athens News
Under Greek law, the children of immigrants born in Greece have to wait until their 18th birthday to apply for citizenship and must prove (as is the case with first-generation immigrants) that they have been legally residing in Greece for at least 10 years in the 12 years preceding their application. They too must pay the 1,500 euro non-refundable application fee. If they do not acquire Greek citizenship through naturalisation, they need a temporary residence permit in order to stay in Greece.
Read the full article in the Athens News here
Technorati: immigration, greece, racism, human rights, citizenship
That sucks, Greece had better smarten up and grow up. I saw a lot of things I didn’t like and couldn’t imagine living there. Even though I am not a visible minority, I would still be an outsider, and I thought Canada had problems, not…ciao
Hi rositta, you are right. There are many problems here for minorities. I have seen some improvements since I started researching and writing about these issues but we have a long way to go…
So there is still hope for Greece, then. Phew. I always knew Greece would be one of the hardest countries for the multiculti insanity to take hold in. It’s worrying that there are some people, as evidenced by this blog, who are working hard to hand over Greece to foreigners, but I think the patriots (”racists”) will eventually prevail.
(I mean, what ‘integration of immigrants’ really means, when you get down to it, is ‘training your replacements’: you house them, give them work, school them, and eventually they take over your entire country by sheer weight of numbers. Bye-bye Greek religion, Greek culture, Greek ‘race’ etc. No wonder patriots oppose it. Duh.)
No Daniel: what immigrant integration means is to treat other people with respect. In other words, to tolerate different religions, different skin colours, different backgrounds of people while they also try to fit into your own society. Of course, Greeks abroad have always insisted on their right to have their own Greek schools, and mix only with other Greeks while working in countries like Germany and Belgium since WWII. Greek nationalism is as big a problem for Greeks as it is for the rest of us: could you please try to somehow move into the current century?
PS: as there are no races anyway, I don’t understand what you think the Greek race might be. A Rat race?
But why, Martin? Seriously, why? Why bother to put yourself through the hell of “integrating” anyone? Why not just keep your country for yourself? It’s just never ever made any sense to me why countries permit foreigners to settle, certainly not why they permit obviously unassimilable foreigners to settle (it’s one thing for Germany to take on a Belgian, but quite another to take on a Somali).
The historical record says that, with sufficient numbres, foreigners inevitably succeed in subverting your culture and entire way of life (not to mention the crime and delapidation that certain groups take everywhere with them; we know who they are). But if what if a country likes things as they are? Why should they have to change to accomodate foreigners?
Now, you’re quite right that Greeks have always insisted on maintaing a certain separateness, but the fault for that lies with your own people: the Americans, Australians and Brits who let them get away with it. Let’s be frank, there was only ever one thing driving such immigration: economics. I can recall when my parents arrived in Australia: they were surely not wanted by the great bulk of Anglo Australians. And they, in turn, did not think particularly highly of Australians. They, like all immigrants, were here for the money. Why on earth the Anglo authorities insisted on beating their own people into submission rather than taking their side and admitting that Greeks were a people simply too culturally and racially distant to ever be fully integrated into an Anglo society remains a mystery to me.
These days, of course, it’s much worse than merely Greeks, who for all their insistence on remaining separate (anti Anglo sentiment remains high among Greek emigres, be sure of it) were an European and Christian people. These days you’re supposed to be exquisitely tolerant of exotic delights like Afghans, Sudanese and South Pacific Islanders. Well, not only tolerant, you’re supposed to “celebrate” their arrival. Apparently, it’s a great boon to see the social fabric of society ripped to shreds by people thoroughly antagonistic towards your people’s ways, and indeed, to your people qua people — racial animus.
“PS: as there are no races anyway, I don’t understand what you think the Greek race might be.”
People who look more or less Greek and speak Greek and think of themselves first and foremost as Greek and hold to the Greek Othodox faith (even if only perfunctorily). Not really the definition of a “race”, which is why I put it in quotes, but I think it’s more meaningful than “ethnicty” because “ethnicity” allows some people to claim that an African could be a ‘real Greek’ or ‘ethnically Greek’, when that is simply preposterous. Whether we like it or not, Martin, a person’s assimilability is determined by his phenotype. You simply can’t think of someone as “just like me” if he clearly looks different to you. That’s why there’s all this perplexing questioning taking place in Europe over the definition of “integration” of Muslims. Just what does it mean and how will you know if or when it’s been achieved? What people need to realize is that phenotype — “race”, racial difference — marks some as *permanently* different. And the greater the difference the more difficult it is to subsume someone under a unifying cultural identity — not that anyone’s even trying to do that, mind you, not with this multicultural paradigm that’s in operation (and just as theoretically out at sea as to how it’s actually supposed to achieve anything as the multiracial paradigm is).
“Race” is admittedly a slippery concept, but despite the well-meaning obfuscation of population geneticists, it’s scientifically undeniable that certain populations are genetically much closer to each other than they are to others. And yes, determining such genetic clusters really does not require any more than a pair of functioning eyeballs: Germans, believe it or not, not only look more closely related to Englishmen than to Nigerians, they in fact are more closely related to Englishmen than to Nigerians.
I suggest that you read some history of the world, Daniel. There are no countries to speak of until very recently,so these are all recent constructs of politics. The history of migration out of Africa is the history of humanity: countries have nothing to do with it. The claiming of these modern territories [called countries] for specific ethnic groups is simple exclusion and conservatism — fear of competition and anything a bit different. That just about sums up Greeks, for me.
Insofar as “phenotypes” are concerned, you are propagating racist nonsense. The evidence on genetic types is that there is great divergence across your so-called German or British phenotypes, and great similiarity with people from Africa. The major difference is that of skin colour, which changed to lighter shades over time for those who had migrated North from Africa. In other words, we are all one species and talk of races is old-fashioned racism dressed up with pseudo-scientific legitimacy. Hitler also had the same attitude, with a genuine belief in races and racial superiority.
And yet for all that people the world over demonstrate a marked preference for their own kind. Why is that, Martin, if race is the “myth” you’d have it be?
And even if it is a “myth” (which it is not, but leaving that aside), why not allow people a say in how to run their societies based on people’s *preferences*? I mean, everyone understands (well, apartly from a few loony lefties, maybe) that parents want to raise their own children. That’s so obvious it’s hardly worth mentioning. But this is not the only way of raising children. It would be quite possible to have complete strangers raise our children. We allow parents to raise their own children because everyone understands the overwhelming preference on the part of parents. Well, then, why not allow people to live in societies composed of people like themselves, if that is what they overwhelmingly prefer?
I’ve lived my entire life in multiracial Australia, Martin. To me it’s as plain as day different groups prefer their own company. Whenever they can, Greeks stick with Greeks, Italians with Italians, Lebanese with Lebanese. Whenever there’s not enough of one man’s group, he’ll gravitate to the one closest to his; thus we find Greeks here finding easy embrace in the company of “Macedonians” (supposed “enemies”), because the Macedonians share racial, cultural and religious traits with them. They don’t go and congregate with the Sudanese because the Sudanese share virtually nothing with them.
This is far from saying that people unlike oneself are “horrible”, but let’s face it, whenever people have a choice in the company they keep, they exercise it. I might not mind having a chat with the Cambodian fellow down the street, but when it comes to forming enduring friendships, when it comes time to invite guests for dinner, when it comes to do anything where I’m able to exercise free choice, my preference is for the company of people more like myself. And the great majority of people behave similarly.
This might all be tolerable were it not for two facts: this is all being played out in other people’s countries, which were built by those people and who, you think, might have something to say about it; and “diversity” of the kind that’s being promoted as a huge strength is, everywhere else in the world, a source of constant, neverending friction and, all too often, violence and bloodshed.
I just don’t get why people are so hellbent on forcing down people’s throats something they clearly reject every time they are able to do so. Can you explain it?
“Hitler also had the same attitude, with a genuine belief in races and racial superiority.”
Ah, the old Hitler canard. I’ll tell you what, I’m not remotely interested in “superiority”. I just want to be left the hell alone. I’ll happily admit that Englishmen and Japanese tend to create more peaceful and mutually cooperative societies than Greeks, that they go about their work more dilligently and tend to create greater prosperity. For all that, though, I’ll choose the company of Greeks every time. Why on earth must there be the presumption of horror if everyone else just did the same?
Danial, you said.
and
I have never experienced this type of preferring to be with “their own”. Not here or in England. Perhaps that is the basis of your problem, you need to get out more. Meet some more people. You will find that you have more in common with “others” than you think. You might find that you feel more part of the real world that most of us live in.
AHHAHAHAHAHA!!! Daniel is an immigrant himself! Naughty naughty Daniel, you didn’t tell me we had so much in common
“I mean, what ‘integration of immigrants’ really means, when you get down to it, is ‘training your replacements’: you house them, give them work, school them, and eventually they take over your entire country by sheer weight of numbers. ”
I totally agree with you Daniel, I hear Australia has a problem with immigration too you know. Lots of Greeks and such like opening up their hard to compete with tavernas over there.. coming in as outsiders, taking their jobs and their women. Makes you wanna be sick don’ t it.
BTW
Welcome Martin Baldwin-Edwards and thank you for taking the time to answer my current resident racist.
Thanks DD:-) Although I realise that your resident is a hopeless case, we still need to answer the points made. BTW, Daniel, I hardly ever associate with Brits in Greece — awful people. I like your humour, Bollybotton: you are right about Daniel being an immigrant. I suppose he is allodapoi homogeneis, which may explain why he is so passionate to defend what is not here…
hey Daniel,
i dont know what australia you live in - but it aint mine buddy!!
so i suppose you love being called a wog right? and howard telling you that he doesnt like hyphenated australians (eg greek-australian) doesnt bother you at all right? thats why your so happy to propogate the same racist hate-filled attitudes? all in defense of the patritha that you dont live in???????? nice one - take the benefits but deny them to others - generous!!
as for the housing and schooling and healthcare (all of which is free in australia) well you must really know what your talking about - coz its not like you benefitted from it right?
come on - get real about these issues mate - let go of the hypocrisy.
ps - yep im as greek as you are - oh but i actually live in greece.
Clea the Communist is a blight upon Greece, long live freedom, long live patriotism.
Those who oppose the people have but one recourse. And we all know what that is.
Also, I have no problem with letting other peoples into Greece, I just think these other peoples should be fellow Europeans; Africans and these other races have little to no commonality with us. Those who think they do are but misguided idiots who attack policemen on the streets like a crazed rabble
“Clea the Communist” says:
umm what do you or did you ever have in common with europeans? eg germany, france, england, the swedish, the danish??? i take it you are referring to western europeans…? I dare say you dont mean to say you have something in common with eastern europeans - like oooh say Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia - do you?
additionally given the huge amount of greek immigrants to oh lets just say Africa - one would think that many greeks find they have something in common with people from Africa.
oh and by the way - your message actually contradicts your “long live freedom” sentiment unless of course you dont count freedom of speech as a fundamental freedom? i guess most “europeans” would.
the blight is here to stay mate - long live the progressive, intellectual, free - BLIGHT!
When I was researching an article on immigrant integration, I found promises of integration stretching as far back as 2002. Recent years have shown more frequent promises, which I surmise are because the EC threatened to take Greece to the European High Court of Justice, not just on citizenship, unfair fees and the like regarding “immigrants,” but also on discrimination toward other EU citizens that file complaints with the Greek ombudsman or Solvit. It’s not about color, it’s just about not being Greek. Greece is an exclusive club for Greeks, nothing more.
What on earth do you mean by that comment ? I assume you are accusing my intelligent readers of being like those people who do go out and burn cars and fight with the police. They are in fact a very small minority who do not represent anyone here. In the same way, (I assume) that the violent right-wing nationalists do not represent you.