What about the negative references to Hellenism and Hellenes in Hannukah? Should Jewish people remove them?

Obviously while my back was turned the government had a lightening cabinet reshuffle. I wonder how Borat is going to get on in the Ministry of Tourism?

I can just picture Hera now as a seven - year old in class;

“But he hit me first!”

He wails as he’s taking off to see the headmaster.

COMMENT DELETED BY DEVIOUS DIVA
I DO NOT ALLOW LINKS AND/OR COMMENTS FROM RACIST BLOGS

Ok, I must be the stupidest person alive because I read all the descriptions of the “Burning of Judas” ceremonies and I don’t get how it is anti-Semitic. Maybe some of the Greek articles I can’t read explain it.

Now, the ceremony is a bit stupid, considering Jesus forgave Judas and Judas killed himself, not to mention that burning people in effigy is just moronic. But I don’t get how it is anti-Semitic.

Melusina, do not try and apply common sense to the arguments put forth on this website.

I don’t see how this tradition is anti semitic? By the same argument, are English racist to Italians because they burn effigies of Guy Fawkes on the 5th November?

I have to say, I’m with you Mel on this issue. I don’t see how anyone would believe this to be anti-semetic. It’s not a ceremony I have ever paid much attention too.

Surely some people believing this to be anti-semetic is their opinion? There doesn’t seem to be any fact involved?

I’ve written an extensive post about it here -> http://abravanel.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/burning-jews-niggers-and-gipsies/

The antisemitic references are obvious when one takes into account that, in the past, this ceremony was accompanied by physical violence against the jewish communities.

The Greek Church has condemned it three times in 1891,1910 and 1918 because they claimed that “incites religious hatred and fosters fanatism” (direct quotes).

Here are the carols that small kids sang at places like Volos:
“Σήμερον μαύρος ουρανός, σήμερον μαύρη μέρα, “Today black sky, today black day
σήμερα κόσμος θλίβουνται και τα βουνά λυπούνται, today the people grieve and mountains grieve
σήμερα βάλανε βουλή οι άνομοι Εβραίοι, today the wicked Jews decided
οι άνομοι και τα σκυλιά κ‘ οι τρισκαταραμένοι, the wicked dogs and the threefold cursed
για να σταυρώσουν το Χριστό, τον πάντων βασιλέα to crucify Christ, the king of all

COMMENT DELETED BY DEVIOUS DIVA.
I HAVE CLEARLY STATED MANY TIMES THAT I DO NOT ALLOW LINKS TO RACIST BLOGS.

I’ll be off to read your post in a second but I’m curious as to whether there is any belief that the modern day ceremony incites any racial hatred or violence?

I don’t get it, either. But that’s because I’m a racist pig, jewish hater, etc, I supose. Or just plaine stupid, like Melusina. I hope I get the last one.

Well, I can see how violence associated with the burning is horrible, although I don’t see why people choose to be violent, aside from ignorance and just plain meanness. Although, honestly, was Judas even Jewish in the end, I mean, he was one of Christ’s disciples.

But I do think there is a difference between the symbolism of the ceremony itself and the meaning people associate with it. It doesn’t seem that the ceremony is anti-Semitic, but the attitudes of the people surrounding it have grown to be anti-Semitic.

It is, of course, fact, that the Jews (and the Romans) persecuted and crucified Christ. But we have to remember what the Jewish religion believes, and while some Jews at the time choose to accept Christ as the Savior and take on another religion, many did not accept him and stayed firm in their Judaism. As someone completely disassociated from religion, I can understand why the Jews persecuted him, I don’t blame them for it, and in the end, would the Christians have their glory and joy in Christ’s salvation if they hadn’t?

It just seems like if people want to keep the tradition they need to lose the asshat behavior associated with it.

it is quite clear by me reading this website, that you DeviousDiva are anti-Hellenic. You should be ashamed of your racist ways.

The burning of the doll was, in the past, and is, today, accompanied with cries and curses against the jews. People in the past used the burning as an excuse to attack jewish neighborhoods - well known greek authors like Kazantzakis describe these attacks in their books.

The Holy Synod of the Greek Church condemned it in the past and repeats it’s opposition today, today’s Metropolites like Anthimos consider it “atrocious” and calls for it’s immediate stop, the scientific community considers it “most familiar and widespread manifestation of traditional anti-semitism in Greece”, the Catholic Church stopped doing in in Syros…

Are all these people controlled by jews? Some of them, like Anthimos, don’t even like jews! The Burning of Judas/Jew is one of the cases where all concur on the malign nature of the phenomenon.

In the article one can find my opinion of the nature of the Burning today. Still I’d like to remark that searching throughout the internet many report of hate speech during the ceremony today.

Abravanel
So far, you have referred to the practice of burning Judas as related in Kazantzakis – a (philosemitic) writer of the last century – and drawn on historical examples from an unnamed village in 19th century Asia Minor and Akanthou village in Turkish-occupied Cyprus, from where the Greek population was ethnically cleansed in 1974.

Your other evidence relates to unspecified, unsubstantiated and ill-defined reports of anti-Jewish ‘cries and curses’ at Judas burning ceremonies, which you go on to associate with a more widespread anti-semitism in Greece, which, you have previously claimed, seeks to deny the presence, currently and historically, of Jews in Greece and in this way, you imply, makes Greeks complicit in the Nazi campaign to wipe out European Jews.

My own view, without admittedly having studied the subject of Judas burning in Greece thoroughly, is that the burning custom probably represents two things:
1. A symbolic and harmless assertion in an overwhelmingly Christian country of the supremacy of Christianity over Judaism. By this I mean Christians, by definition, will always regard their religion as a repudiation of Judaism and view Jews as belonging to a flawed religion. This is the nature of religions I’m afraid, particularly the Abrahamic ones.
2. Judas burning must also surely be seen as a symbolic expression of resistance to the Ottoman Empire and hostility to the role of Jews in Turkish-occupied Greece as usurpers and collaborators with the Ottoman authorities.

Generally, I think you are disingenuous in your portrayal of Jews in Greece. Indeed, the term Greek Jews is misleading since, as you know, the vast majority of Jews in Greece were and are the descendents of Spanish and Portuguese Jews brought to Greece by the Ottomans to supplant and dispossess the conquered Greeks. You will also have to admit that the historical record shows that Ottoman Jews were far from happy to see Greece liberated from the Turks and would have preferred to see the Turkish occupation continue.

Still, despite the tension and change in the dynamics of the relations between Greeks and Jews in Greece after 1913 and again after 1922, Mark Mazower states in his book on Thessaloniki that the Jews in the city were becoming Hellenised quite quickly and that a new, interesting and common future could be predicted; interrupted, of course, by the Holocaust, during which, I have heard Mazower say in a lecture in London, the Greeks – after the Danes – did more than any other people in Europe to protect their Jewish population. Obviously, Judas burning – which you associate with anti-semitism – did not prompt Greeks to behave like the Germans, French, Poles, etc, who had no such ceremonies.

It seems to me that Judas burning, as other commenters have pointed out, is similar to the burning of the Guy Fawkes effigy in Britain; a custom rooted in antipathy towards Catholics and Catholicism, which has over the years become devoid of political and religious meaning, but has some worth as a quaint expression of national history and tradition.
I also notice that you have not responded to those who have questioned the anti-Greek nature of many Jewish beliefs and practices, especially those associated with Hanukkah. Do you think the Hanukkah celebration, which is by definition anti-Greek, should be abolished? I doubt it. Neither do I. It doesn’t bother me as a Greek that Jews like to celebrate being different to Greeks, and I can live with the fact that in the process of preserving their religion from Hellenic encroachment Jews subjected Greeks – particularly in the Kitos war – to maniacal violence and massacre.

Yes, it would be good if Abravnel and Devious would respond to the ant-Hellenic nature of Hannukah?

I will look up “Hannukah” in Google, and if I find it anti-hellenic I will respond; it might become interesting if we agree to oppose ALL racist religious practices, without bias.
However, it is very clear that criticisms against “the burning of Judas” all are correct. What more can one say? I consider people who participate in such ceremonies as either morons or fanatics; fortunately, most of them are morons. But morons can also turn to excellent first-class fanatics.

Peace people

We love you

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Cheers

Marko Fando

I heard that Jews burn effigies of Greek king Antiochus in their celebration of Hannukah? Is that true?

This is an old blog but Hera asks a good question…Why are not anti-Greek themes of Hannukah expunged.