CANDIDATE UPDATE
Published by deviousdiva May 9th, 2006 in Personal.UPDATE TO THIS POST
According to Kathimerini, the general public has been surprised at the furore over the candidacy of Gulbeyaz Karahasan, (the Greek Muslim women standing for prefect of Drama-Kavala-Xanthi) because they:
were either not aware of (or did not consider important) the bar of discrimination that until 1997 was in place to divide Greeks from Greeks, the “pure”from the “suspect”
I saw her on television last night, not talking about her candidacy but repeatedly stating that she was, in fact, Greek. Nobody could get any idea about her opinions on various issues because everyone seems so astounded that a Greek Muslim woman could possibly be allowed to stand for election?
Again from Kathimerini:
Those who doubt Karahasan’s Greek identity forget that she is a Pomak, a minority within a minority, a people who, according to, nationally correct, documentation, are descended from the ancient Thracians.
How many ways does she have to say it? She’s Greek and she is Muslim. End of story. Get over it.
But is she Greek first and Muslim second, or the other way round? The first causes no problems. A legitimate question to ask of any minority politician and often a difficult one to answer. How does she choose to define herself? Would she always support Greece in the World Cup no matter who they were against? Whose side is she on?
Should the question be asked? Why not? She is standing for election and asking people to choose her - which gives them the right to ask her anything …
Let me just ask you something Sunni side up, if she was Orthodox Christian would you be asking which she puts first.? How can anyone define what they are first? Surely she is all those things at the same time?
I don't think the football question affects her ability to stand as a candidate. I have lived here for many years and I supported Greece in the Euro 2004, all the way, and cried tears of joy in the plateia along with everyone else when Greece won. Doesn't make me Greek though.
(I am not a football fan as you can probably tell: maybe she isn't either?)
Yes, I agree people should ask questions, but why just the one over and over: Are you Greek? She is.
Now ask her what her policies are, her opinions, how she will serve the community she is hoping to represent. I think you might get a better idea of her suitability that way.
Sunni side up: Religion is a personal matter and I don’t see what it has to do with her being elected. In fact I don’t see which team one supports in the world cup has to do do with anything. If I support Brazil does that mean something? You are right in one thing that people are entitled to ask anything they like, however I don’t see what one’s religion has to do with one’s greekness. Is Greekness defined through one’s religion? If I were a buddhist would that make me less of a Greek than my cousin who is a regular church goer? Your questions indirectly imply a contradiction between greekness and one’s religion and that goes against even our own constitution and needless to say european philosophy (and laws) of ones freedom to chose their religion. In fact, if I were a religious person, I would be more intimidated by atheists than by muslims since Islam and Christianity in essense share a lot of Ideals, including if I may point out, the actual existence of a creator and not the lack of one. As an atheist by definition beleives.
And the suicide bombers on the London underground were British. But they were Muslims first.
We tend to be defined by what makes us different. So in a group of men, I am conscious of my gender before my race or my class. In a group of French people, I am conscious of not being French, and so on. I don’t think the question is simply “Are you Greek?” but rather “If the interests of Greece conflict with the interests of Islam as you uphold them, where do you stand?”. A proper question. Would I ask the same of an Orthodox Christian in Greece? Obviously not, because the two are the same, are they not?
How can they be the same thing ? By that, you are implying that Non-Othodox Greeks are not Greek. What about Jewish Greeks, Catholic Greeks, Bahai Greeks or non-religious Greeks? What are they, if they are not Greek?
Identity is a complex process (it’s a process and NOT static) - identities shift…I can think of ways in which we identify in certain ways for strategic purposes (i.e. resistance to dominant discourses of how some of us are “defined” and “labelled”)
I identify as an immigrant, Iranian muslima who happens to live in Canada. I was born a Muslim, but what does that really mean? Am I not a Canadian because I am a Muslim Iranian? If so, then what *is* a Canadian? I sometimes identify as Canadian in certain contexts and identify as Iranian-Canadian in others, or just plain Iranian at other times.
The point to note here is NOT the fact that we are *this* or *that* but the fact that we are *labelled* and *othered* in certain ways - and we need to look at how this *othering* marginalizes some us and leads to discrimation.
I cannot go to the U.S. without being questioned at the border because I was born in Iran. My Canadian status does nothing for me. So you see, whether I like it or not, I am seen as an Iranian Muslim first before Canadian (or human for that matter!)
So, it’s not about how *I* see myself, but more about how *they* (i.e. dominant discourse, the status quo, the authorities) see me.
Karahasan’s situation is case in point. Whether or not she chooses to identify as a Muslim, she is *othered* that way by the status quo.
This is more than just about identity. It’s an issue of justice and rights.
(my last sentence) Heard of irony, DD?
I’m only defending the right to ask the question.
Agree with you PQ, but do think we define ourselves by our differences - others do not need to do it for us. I had lunch today at a cafeteria with about eight hundred men and a handful of women. Unsurprisingly, I was conscious of my gender, though the men did nothing to make me feel different.
zardoz says:
lets put it another way..?
the politician asking the question,,
in case of war ,,, what would he do .. i ask,,?
my personal opinion is
he would
haul ass and take off for
another country , like some of his forefathers
did before the second world war.
I WONDER what they were asked in britain in 1940
as a refugee poor thing . along with the poor royal greek family.!!!!!!!!!
…………………………mercy people. zardoz
Sorry Sunni side up, I didn’t get the irony. I have heard many people say the same thing in all seriousness. I also agree with your right to ask questions but I do wonder why it’s the same question over and over. At least, in this particular situation it is.
No probs. Should learn not to attempt irony without the scaffolding of tone of voice and body language … I’d ask what shirt will your son be wearing if Greece plays England in the World Cup, but you’re not standing for public office …
In answer to your last question, Sunni side up… I have no idea… Brazil ? You can ask the question, by all means, but I am definately going to get bored if that is all you are going to ask.
Quick aside: Do I know you ? You sound familiar?
Please play nice, people. I’m signing off in a bit
Hey, I don’t remember anyone asking Bush if he was AMERICAN during his campaign?
Why doesn’t anyone ask these questions in American elections I wonder. In Los Angeles, California, we have a hispanic Mayor, and an Austrian Govenor in California but again I don’t think anyone questions whether Arnold was an American.
Again, I wonder why it’s different here?
Maybe Americans are just more secure with themselves?
scruffy american, no one needed to ask bush if he was american - it doesn’t have anything to do with security. he comes from an american dynasty of politicians and wealth. and bush does everything in his power to assure folks that he comes represents a certain TYPE of american while painting everyone else with the “unpatriotic, unamerican” brush.
i don’t know much about greek politics or greek culture, but what i see here is a pattern of identifying muslims by their religion rather than their country of origin or ethnicity, as pomegranate queen says. i suspect that the same question would NOT be asked of someone who was christian and greek or even pagan and greek because the same assumptions would not be made about a person’s seemingly-divided values/priorites what-have-you. because she’s muslim, and because muslims have been assigned enemy #1 status by the west, she’s assumed to have conflicting loyalties. what they’re asking is “are you with us or against us.”
kinda messed-up.
dd, can you tell me more about the bar of discrimination that you referred to? how were they defining “greek” to separate greeks from greeks?
No, she is not Greek. No, she will not put Greece ahead of Islam. Are the people here daft? Do you not see the Muslim upheaval in places around Europe and the west? Muslims put Islam first and all else second. The “moderate” Muslims( an oxymoron) give their approval to the “radicals” by their very silence on the matter.
In the US, Bush is as American as one can get. A very bad American, but American no less. Schwarzenegger is American because that is what he is. He came to the US, shed his Austrian (read European) heritage in order to live the American dream. He became successful, married into one of the wealthiest and most political families in the country, and has done everything to support what was America. Did I mention he was European, why yes I did. The place where America was spawned. And Canada for that matter.
Now for Villaraigosa, the mayor of LA. Well, he was a student leader of MECHa which is an irredentist movement aimed at uniting the Southwestern portion of the United States with Mexico, through political means or through force if necessary. He protested and marched in Washington to demand amnesty for illegals. He helped shoot down Prop 187, which was a bill which denied benefits to Mexicans who broke our laws to live in California illegally.
For me, Villaraigosa is no American because he definitely does not have the interests of Americans at heart. When nearly 90% of Americans think illegal immigration is a serious problem and needs to be rectified, including deportations, then Villaraigosa is an enemy. He is a Mexican invader that needs to be treated as such.
Villaraigosa es muy bueno.
First of all, I say more power to this candidate. She’s young, she’s female and she’s not Greek Orthodox. The Constitutional prerequisite is that candidates be Greek CITIZENS, NOT of Greek-Orthodox RELIGION. R-e-l-i-g-i-o-n people, not citizenship. How everyone gets to their heaven is of no importance. What’s important is how we make good on this Earth now. Get over it. Embrace it. Be one with it.
Secondly, no one bothered to ask how GREEK politicians use people of other religions as pawns in a chess game? Back in early ’90s Senior Papandreou (Andreas) broke the Prefectures of the area to AVOID the election of a Muslim candidate. This year Junior Papandreou asks a young Muslim woman to be run for the office. Hm. Er. *cough* Politics is one nasty bitch, ain’t it?
Lastly, on a lighter note, I recently saw a video clip of Robin Williams guest appearing on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Williams appeared as “The Decider”, satirizing another Bushism. Anyway, in his comical approach he used this phrase to poke fun of Arnold Schwatzenegger. [Arny/Terminator accent]“I am an Austrian immigrant. Governor of California. Against immigrants”.[/accent]
Actually, Flubberwinkle pointed right at the most important fact in this story - there is no chance Karahasan will be elected because Thraki has been thoroughly gerrymandered. The districts voting for that Ypernomarchis position make up a Christian majority.
(Whether we like it or not, religion is still a deciding factor in the labelling process around here. It doesn’t matter if you never go to church or to the mosque, what matters is your so-called affilliation. The 1990s wars in Yugoslavia made the situation much, much worse.)
So the story is quite cynical all round. Papandreou nominated Karahasan purely in order to provoke the conservatives. He succeeded - Nea Dimokratia embarrassed itself once again when all these old style racist/nationalists came out of the woodwork and spouted their muddled hysteria, and at the same time absolutely nothing of substance was at risk for PASOK. A couple of days ago prime minister Karamanlis ordered his people to clam up.
But I find it encouraging that at least the issues of citizenship and religion were discussed on TV. I was surprised at how many commentators supported Karahasan’s candidacy and ripped apart the arguments of the extreme right. Even Karatzaferis - the leader of a far-right ‘Orthodox’ party - had to change tactics (which he does 5 or 6 times in every sentence anyway), by insisting that Karahasan’s candidacy was valid but that the office of Ypernomarchis should be abolished. He could not dispute the fact that all Greek citizens have the right to run for office.
Basically, this particular dustup did generate some positive dialogue, and the the far right clearly lost the argument.
Hi midwesterntransport, nice to see you here. welcome. Your question about the bar discrimination issue. ( I am sure there are some much more knowlegeable people who can answer you better)
Northern Greece is a hugely complicated region in terms of ethnicity and nationality and I cannot pretend to understand the issues. From what I understand the discrimination comes from the fact that Greece only recognises the muslim minority not the other sub-groups.
"There are communities that identify themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (ethnic Albanians), and "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians." Most are fully integrated into society. The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" specified in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, applying the term to several different ethnic communities." Human Rights Practices for 1997
Also what Flubberwinkle wrote
is an important part of the same discrimination issue.
That's how I understand it but I know others will be able to elaborate.
Scarf+, you are pretty up on the issues in the region. Care to leap in?
I agree with you scarf+. You managed to sum up the whole situation for me in this one post, particularly this line
Thanks.
thanks, dd. that helps me understand the situation a bit better.
I think it is important to be very careful when getting into this sort of “defining identity” issue.
Everyone has an opinion of what it is to be Greek, or American, or whatever. Once you start putting these opinions together and fine tuning what it is to be Greek, you may find few Greeks left.
Of course, to me, being an American, the idea of having a female Muslim (hmm, two strikes against her?) up for political office is perfectly normal and acceptable.
And give me a break. If we are going to pull at the threads of people putting their religions/races/genders, etc. ahead of the interests of their political office, we are going to have no sweater left. Show me a politician without an agenda other than the protection and fulfillment of his or her community. There might be one out there somewhere (Sweden, maybe) but they are few and far between.
But I find it encouraging that at least the issues of citizenship and religion were discussed on TV. I was surprised at how many commentators supported Karahasan’s candidacy and ripped apart the arguments of the extreme right.
Basically, this particular dustup did generate some positive dialogue, and the the far right clearly lost the argument.
It is amusing how the concept of nationalism that people a mere 20-30 years ago took for granted and viewed as normal, is now deemed “far right”. The question begging to be asked is who categorizes normal actions and behaviour as “far right”? Certainly not most people living within respective countries all over the planet. Cerainly not a vast majority of third worlders, if not nearly all, who view race and ethnicity as sine qua non to a healthy nation and people. No one is asking Mexico to imbibe in this “purple koolaid”. No one is asking China, India, Pakistan, East and Southeast Asia, Israel, Africa, Haiti, Jamaica or any f*cking country other than Europe or the West to indulge in cultural or societal suicide. We are the guinea pigs of this Marxist experiment that already has had an abhorrent conclusion. Somehow certain bleeding heart Marxists just do not learn from history.
The good news is that the majority of European whites are waking up to this monstrosity gone awry. When you have the Dutch, hands down the most tolerant Europeans, grumbling for nationalism and deportation of the Muslim invasion they foolishly let into their country. It is only a matter of time before more staunch nationalists step onto the world stage of politics and send the NON-Europeans back home to where they can live in peace and tranquility and away from the racism that they suffer under.
A little blurb from Ekathimerini stating that…
The majority of Greeks seem to suffer from a superiority complex when it comes to foreigners, according to the findings of a recent survey. At the same time, two in three Greeks (or 69 percent) believe that their country is far superior to all others in all respects, a notion that serves as fertile breeding ground for racism.
Also, 59 percent of the sample surveyed argue that it would be better if economic migrants were not allowed into Greece, while four in 10 agree that migrants should be placed in specific geographical locations, or ghettos, saying it is preferable for all social, religious, racial and ethnic group to live among their own peers.
To the question regarding whether Greece is a superior nation to others, 82 percent of people who have a basic or no education say it is, a percentage that decreases with high school graduates with 68 percent and even more so with university graduates, to 59 percent.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4d.....2005_61530
The last paragraph is quite telling because it solidifies the notion that the greater one goes into the indoctrination machine known as higher education, the more that one is led to believe that the education they receive is due to evil Europeans and they need to be eradicated. Despite that, 60% educated Greeks view their country positively. So much for Scarfomoronicus’ rose-colored analysis.
So, keep dreaming of a European morass of third worldism. It ain’t gonna happen and I am ecstatic in the fact that in my lifetime, I will see the invaders sent home. Any of the bleeding heart Greeks are free to join them as that goes without saying…
That should have read
*yawn*
Ethno
you know I’m not a big fan of these black/white, European/non-European distinctions you like to draw, preferring instead the old Greek/barbarian polarity.
Bearing this Greek/barbarian polarity in mind, I read the Kathimerini article you mentioned and, like you, was pleased to see the level of instinctive patriotism that still exists among Greeks and was heartened by their healthy sense of superiority in relation to foreigners.
Unfortunately, the author of the article makes this observation: “A large portion of the population has a racist outlook as they consider that Greeks are superior”.
Is it really racist for Greeks to consider themselves superior to foreigners?
Is it not an empirical fact that Greeks are superior to foreigners and that this is based on Greek history, culture and civilisation?
If we can say that Greeks are superior to the cannibals of Papua New Guinea – and surely we do say this, without fear of being accused of racism – then why can’t we say that Greeks are superior to Turks, Canadians, New Zealanders, Albanians, the French, the English and so on? (Remember, Henry Miller said that “an Englishman’s not worth the dirt between a Greek’s toes”. Is this a racist comment? I don’t think so).
I think it is entirely right to categorise and rank races according to their history, culture and civilisations. If we don’t do this – if we say all races and all cultures are equal – then there would never be – and never would have been – human progress.
Ultimately, when Greeks say they are superior to foreigners, they are not saying, like the Germans, ‘we are so good that everyone else must die’; rather, they are saying, ‘we are so good that really you ought to try and learn from us, be like us.’
I cannot think of a single example of Greeks going to another country and massacring the locals because they considered them inferior. The English, the Arabs, the Turks, the Spanish, the Americans, the Japanese, the French, the Germans, countless African tribes, have done it, but never the Greeks.
Ethno,
Regarding Kathimerini and the Superiority issue. I’ve often noted that many (not all) Greeks feel superior to most foreigners but with Americans they truly don’t know how to react to us because they feel inferior to us in some way based on their perception of how our US Government has treated them over the years. I like to think of the relationship between Greece and the US similar to one between a father and a rebellious teenager.
What does a person with a superiority complex do when they also have an inferior complex. They become anti-American, and blame the Jews for everything. (Ok, I’m kidding!!)
Now, seriously, don’t forget that Greeks also have one of the lowest IQs in Europe, as we saw in a former Phylax episode, confirmed by this British article. And, you can’t blame immigrants for this because I’m sure the Greek stats don’t include immigrants as they do in other countries.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a.....19,00.html
Now, to be fair, again, obviously this does not apply to all Greeks, especially ones who have left Greece and have seen how the world really operates.
And of course, my own countrymen in America are not always the brightest either. For example, when I returned back from the states, my Greek neighbor asked me, “What are they saying about us in the states”, and I told him “They are trying to find you guys on the map”.
Demo,
To answer your question of “is it racist”? Definitely not. This is but a concoction devised by people of the nefarious nature who are out to destroy civilization as we know it and use their herd of useful idiots to promote such anti-human and anti-nature ideology, like Scarfomoronicus. To consider one better than the other is what makes us human. I consider myself better than the next person. I consider my kids better than the neighbor’s kids. I consider my family better than the next and so on. Please point out to me the moron who thinks their children are loathsome while they yearn for the neighbor’s kids. Same goes for country and ethnic clan, period. The mendacity of the MSM is notorious for pushing for this upside down thinking. It comes as no surprise that the author of the article trots out the usual leftist canards. And as you rightfully point out, as if it had to be said in times past, feeling and thinking you’re better does not equate to genocidal ideations. A common fallacy that the left loves to meme into people.
All races and ethnicities think of their own as better because that is normal, yet whites, Greeks whatever are vilified for thinking it. Thankfully this pendulum is swinging to more normal thinking.
Scruffy,
See my point above to clarify your questions. It does not matter if we truly are better, in light of your Times article. It matters on how we view ourselves and our culture and our people. We like ourselves and our culture and that’s what counts. We are normal and that’s what counts too. I’ve stated a slew of reasons why there could be discrepancies in the European IQs on Phylax and I do not intend on repeating it. Besides, your point is a non sequitur because you assert since Greeks do not have the highest IQ of Europeans, they should not feel superior. Care to give me your view on Black African or Black American IQs and how they should feel then? Using your same line of thought, of course.
Great writing, guys, never mind whether I agree with you. I love the arguments. Long live the nation state (is there any alternative?), especially mine. When the bluebells and wild garlic cover the woods and the sun is shining on the dew, it is better than anywhere else in the world.
You guys are incredible. I can’t believe you genuinely believe your superiority to the rest of the human race. WAKE UP. Whether you like it or not we ARE all ONE and I would dare say that virtually all the world’s problems can be traced back to the belief and practice that we are not.
Jesus Dd, you have a nasty habit of attracting dinosaurs to this blog.
Ethnocentrist, your views are of the last century. I feel sorry for you because given the state of the world, in the future you are going to be very lonely and very disappointed.
Superiority this and that. It’s easy to throw around abstractions. The attempt to measure a human being in any way and equate an other as better or worse, let alone a whole race, but even within a single one (race) speaks volumes as to some peoples shallow understanding. You can’t measure a human being.
Humbly, I think that anyone that claims to be superior to another just projects his own insecurity, for the truly wise usually remain silent.
I see… Demonax says that greeks are superior to foreigners. That’s empirical. You touch demonax, and you know he is superior to foreigners. Well, I’m a foreigner, ergo, demonax is superior to me. Congratulations. Etnho says that greeks just feel superior, which is natural. Fine to me. I, myself, feel that I’m the king of the world. Is my right to feel it. I correct: I’m really the king of the world. That’s empirical, too.
By the way, scruffy, that IQ thing is rubish, as you should know. That’s pre-historic psychology.
I see that this has disintergrated into a “who’s better than who” playground argument .
(I am waiting for those statistics and facts that “prove” that black people have a lower IQ ? I know at least two of you have them up your sleeves)
Stating superiority over other races/ethnicities/nationalities is racist. Full stop.
While I’m out, the issue is this and nothing more…
All races and ethnicities think of their own as better because that is normal, yet whites, Greeks whatever are vilified for thinking it.
Because that point above is what has lead western society to allow itself to be flooded with all sorts of people from all over the third world. The reverse is not true.
Also, IQs are not rubbish and nothing “pre-historic” about them. Billions upon billions have been spent in order to close these gaps between racial groups. Civilizations have been created based on these very IQs. This point is no longer questioned by leftist because the evidence for it is astronomical.
DD, you’re absolutely right. The superiority arguments being made here are completely racist. Such views are considered fringe-right because no good can come of them. Genocides and two bloody world wars are proof of that.
Haha, the assumption that Greece belongs in the west is funny. Which aspect of it exactly gives you that idea? The economy? The infustructure? Education?
Or is it that we are (mostly) white and (mostly)christian? We have only recently (since joining the EU) been classified as part of the west. Traditionally we were eastern peoples (and part of the eastern church). I like to beleive we are Europeans, not by virtue of our race, since we’ve been a mix of races for aeons now, but for our democratic ideals. The moment we become Greeks by Ethnocentrists definition of what a Greek should be (ie adopting his views- which are inherently flawed) we automatically seize to be Europeans.
As for IQ tests. I’ve taken a few - just for fun. You don’t need to be a mensa member to realize that they are flawed. The test is based on the abilities of the individual tested in mathematics and language. Is that the scope of a man’s consciousness and intellect? Where does art, creativity, compassion and dare I say religiousness (which some people might find of value) fit into this test? It doesn’t,
It’s funny.
last time I took the test I scored 140. But then again I have a Bsc in Mathematics and my language is pretty good so it doesn’t really mean anything now does it?
All races and ethnicities think of their own as better because that is normal, yet whites, Greeks whatever are vilified for thinking it.
No, that is not normal. That’s racist.
Welcome to the fray, Ginger Heatter. I like that phrase “fringe-right”. It firmly puts those beliefs where they belong.
Hey Buru, you must be pretty superior to all of us then eh? LOL.
Hi Kevin Andre Eliott, your comment came in as I was writing a reply to the previous ones. Welcome to the fray to you too. I agree, those opinions are not normal. Enough said.
King of the world, your majesty
You say you are king of the world and there exists empirical evidence to support your claim. I doubt this is true. What is more likely to exist, if you really do believe you are king of the world, are your own insane delusions.
I repeat that Greeks – as a race and as individuals – are superior to foreigners on the basis of their culture, history and civilisation(s). This is because, if we accept as our measure of superiority the advancement of human freedom and human truth, i.e. what it is to be human, then demonstrably, unequivocally, empirically, Greeks are top of the tree. There is no one with a modicum of knowledge of human history who can dispute this.
Your majesty, I agree with you on IQ tests being irrelevant. The Times article Scruffy refers to suggests Germans, Poles and the Dutch – having the highest IQ scores – are the most intelligent Europeans. Yet, it is the Germans who invented the gas chambers, the Poles who ran the slaughterhouses for them and the Dutch – as my uncle who fought them in WW2 often recalled – were the most fanatical SS followers around. Clearly, even if IQ tests had merit and did truly measure brain power, it is not just about being intelligent but to what service you dedicate your intelligence. Greeks have dedicated their intelligence to the advancement of man – and woman – kind.
Buru – which truly wise person who remained silent are you referring to? Most truly wise persons I can think of could not, one way or another, stop shooting their mouths off, publicly espousing their views, offering them up for discussion, refutation and adjustment, and rigorously challenging the views of others. (Think of Socrates, surely the wisest of all men). Being silent leads to inertia and is the equivalent of death. Surely, you are not advocating death, Buru.
Also, do you think that the Ancient Greeks, who vigorously advocated their own superiority, do you honestly think, they were ‘insecure’. I doubt it. More true, is that the Germans, Americans, English, Turks and so on, have committed genocide and massacre in a frenzy of insecurity, unable to accept the existence of those who are different to them. Greeks, secure in their superiority, have never felt the need to do this.
Buru, I’ve just seen your comments on Greece and the West. They are nonsense. Greece ‘is’ the West.
I will not respond to indoctrinated, knee-jerk, non-responses of the like from Ginger and Kevin. They can keep their burblings to themselves. Also, when over 70% of a population believes in what is written above by myself, it no longer becomes “fringe-right”. It is the NORM. Get used to it. I understand it is easy to convince oneself that the whole world subscribes to this faaaaar left thinking that the people here belong, which is reinforced by your net wide circle jerk, however most people have their heads on straight. Not leaning left.
Buru, your post requires a decent reply. Later.
Demo, IQ tests are not irrelevant. They are excellent predictors of “potential” success. Obviously if one is an unmotived fool, then their IQ of 140 means little. Though the potential for success, wealth, productivity, societal contributions etc is quite real and reproducible.
Ok, demonax, whatever. And I’m just kidding. I’m not really the king of the world. Send my regards to Plato and Aristoteles.
I just want to touch on something–the statement, “Long live the nation state (is there any alternative?), especially mine”
i think this sentence speaks volumns about what is really going on in these trolls minds–what is the nation/state but one of the biggest perpertrators, creators, and reinforcers of structural heirarchies and violence?
King of the world, I know you’re kidding and you’re not really king of the world. I am.
dd: Pardon my greek:
Εθνο: Ρε μαστορα, κανε μου την χαρη και πες μας την καταγωγη σου να καταλαβω και εγω απο που ερχεσαι. Προσπαθω να καταλαβω την προελευση των πιστευων σου, δεν σε καταλαβαινω. Ντεμοναξ: και εσυ ρε φιλε τι κολλημα εχεις φαει;
… And there are some people who believe white people are superior to black people or that men are superior to women. Surely we can all see that this is a nonsense and has no merit.
I really do not mind if you write in Greek but could you write a translation into English for those readers of this blog who do not read Greek ? Thank you.
Troll? Where’s the troll? I was joking … much like the guy with the funny keyboard and no manners.
“It is amusing how the concept of nationalism that people a mere 20-30 years ago took for granted and viewed as normal, is now deemed “far right”. The question begging to be asked is who categorizes normal actions and behaviour as “far right”?”
Did he miss the part where she was ethnically Greek, going back to ancient times? What the hell? That’s like questioning whether Venetians are “really” Italian, or whether an Indian’s loyalty lie with Bombay or the subcontinent. It doesn’t have jack to do with the nation. It has to do with race and religion within the nation.
If you’re gonna be a know-it-all moron in someone else’s space, at least have some grasp on what you’re discussing.
dd, i’m sorry that your blog is being co-opted by these racist fools.
this in particular amused me, from ethnocentrist: “Because that point above is what has led western society to allow itself to be flooded with all sorts of people from all over the third world.”
are you freakin’ kidding me? western white society didn’t ALLOW itself to do anything. it SOUGHT OUT brown and black people for labor and exploitation, and then viciously imported that labor and continued to exploit it. that’s what we call colonialism, and imperialism.
anyway, these folks should take their nasty racist ideas elsewhere.
“it SOUGHT OUT brown and black people for labor and exploitation, and then viciously imported that labor and continued to exploit it”
I find this really offensive.
I come from an immigrant background, and I’ve never heard anyone from my family say they were ‘viciously imported’ to England and subsequently ‘exploited’.
My people came, like hundreds of thousands of others, from the former British empire, voluntarily, and through sheer hard work and intelligence made a decent life for themselves and their children. Do you really think that immigrants are so stupid and lacking in willpower that they were ‘viciously imported’ and so lacking in ambition and talent that they allowed themselves to be ‘exploited’.
Midwesterntransport, you’re very liberal when it comes to accusing others of racism, yet you seem to have some strikingly negative views of immigrants yourself, which, I suggest, you need to deal with.
I will not respond to indoctrinated, knee-jerk, non-responses of the like from Ginger and Kevin. They can keep their burblings to themselves.
Um…correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that a response? Oh wait, why would I expect anything aproaching logic from you, ethnoracist?
Also, when over 70% of a population believes in what is written above by myself, it no longer becomes “fringe-right”. It is the NORM.
There was a time when 70% of a population believed that anyone not white was inferior (actually, I’m not sure that’s not still the case). So I don’t give two shits about your “norm.”
dear ethnodick and other penis wrinkles,
I’m an Irish-American with an IQ of 165. Does this mean i get to spank you? My superior logic tells me yes. So get down on your knees and beg for mercy. Seriously, you’re a waste of space. So give it up. Take your nationalism (or is that national socialism?) back to your own house.
DD - i am now begging you to block these trolls so they can no longer muddy up actual discussion and dialogue with their bullshit. I, for one, think it speaks volumes for the people of Greece to have elected a muslim womyn. But what i would care about more are policies. From the way that these people talk you’d think the only thing she stood for was muslim wimmin. Everyone else must die. And if this is your logic, you may want to consider medication.
my point, demonax, wasn’t to say anything about immigrants who willingly move from one country to another. i was referring to, for example, the african diaspora, the slave trade - that’s what i meant by vicious importation. white folks seeking out black labor, bringing black people to the united states and then treating black people as subhuman for hundreds of years.
african people who were put on slave ships did not have a choice. that’s not immigration. that’s forced migration. that’s what i meant by “imported.” i’m sorry if i didn’t specify and make that more clear.
i don’t think that immigrants are stupid and lacking in willpower, no. why would i think that? i live in a country of immigrants. a country where the native population was nearly decimated to make room for those immigrants - like my great-grandparents, etc.
and i’m sorry, but whether or not one is exploited by an unfair capitalist system has very little to do with ambition or talent - most people who aren’t in control of a government are exploited by it in some way. currently in the united states, we have a situation where many undocumented workers - immigrants - are continually exploited by american employers. many of those immigrants may come here willingly, but once here, they are denied basic healthcare, the right to a decent wage, etc. that doesn’t mean that people don’t work hard to make a life for themselves - i’m sure folks work very, very hard. to my mind, whether or not one is exploited by a nasty system has nothing to do with how hard one works.
people work hard all of their lives and still stay stuck because the system is jacked, not because they’re not smart.
so i’m a little confused as to how you took my comments to be anti-immigrant. i hope this clears it up.
ZARDOZ SAYS :
WERE IS THIS GOING ,, SOMEBODY STOP HIM.
YES… ITS YOU ,, IM DIRECTING MY ARROWS
……YOU………..
—–YOU BURUBURU ,,,, YOU MATH RACIST ,, HOW DARE YOU
THINK ,,,,,, AND WRITE SUCH THINGS,,,,,,
SAYING YOURE BETTER THAN OTHERS ,,,,,,,,,
IVE GOT A …Bsc in BIOLOGY ,,,
AND LAST I HEARD WE ALL HAVE THE SAME D.N.A.
GIVEN THE RIGHT EDUCATION ,,CONDITIONS OF LIVING..E.C.T
WE ARE ALL THE SAME ….
ME
YOU …..BURU
………..ETHNOCENTRIST
DEMONAX………………………AND OTHERS
SO GET OFF YOURE HIGH HORSE …………….MR BURUBURU
BECAYSE I HAD ,,, JUST ABOUT ENOYGH
OF YOUR GRANDSTANDING ……………WITH YOUR I. Q.
YOU MATH RACIST YOU.
KINDLY ,, YOURS TRULY ,,
ZARDOZ ,, YOUR DNA BROTHER ,, and little brother ethnocentrist and little
brother demonax ,,,,, who we ,,, ALL COME FROM A LITTLE BLACK
WOMAN IN AFRICA .
END =Z=
Buru, what exactly do you want to know and with a little less mocking sarcasm, please?
Also, your post above on May 11th, 2006 at 3:25 pm is a hodgepodge of self hate and regurgitated fallacies thanks to your youth and openness to be “different”. Or at least that is what your educators told you. I remember your first comment to me was that there is no such thing as race. Now if that is not leftist dinosaur dung, I do not know what is. That has been smashed by the relentless march forward of science. Now you pull out we, Europeans and Greeks are an orgy of different races, therefore why bother preserving something that is “impure”. Again this is absurd, Buru. For one, genetic testing clearly is able to identify races and sub-races. Most European races are pretty much the way they were eons ago. There has been some, with emphasis on some, admixture but that is in trivial quantites. Even so, your logic is failing you if you think that just because of a minute amount of admixture is cause to completely admix an entire population. That is akin to wanting to scrap an auto because of a single scratch or dent. Or even better, bang up the entire auto so it is “uniform”. Hopefully you do not hold that line of thinking living and driving in Athens, do you?
To Aldahlia,
Did he miss the part where she was ethnically Greek, going back to ancient times? What the hell? That’s like questioning whether Venetians are “really” Italian, or whether an Indian’s loyalty lie with Bombay or the subcontinent. It doesn’t have jack to do with the nation. It has to do with race and religion within the nation.
If you’re gonna be a know-it-all moron in someone else’s space, at least have some grasp on what you’re discussing.
LOL
She’s an ethnic Turk, you imbecile. Her roots come from a Turkish minority in Thrace.
To Kevin Andre Elliott,
No, that was not a response, my “English is just too damn hard to master” friend. It was a statement made to address why I would not bother responding to yours and the other persons tired old empty leftist bilge. Now this, this IS a response to your second of two worthless comments. You not only seem to not understand the nuances of English, but fail in understanding normalcy as well. When the majority of a population believes an idea, whether right or wrong to a select few, it IS the norm. Get it now? Your beliefs and the beliefs of the screeching banshees here is what is ABnormal, i.e. NOT the norm.
Dear Vegan-dyke,
I’ve read your musings around the feminazi world and your claim of 165 IQ is either 1) a blatant lie or 2) reason to get a refund on your test costs. You show nothing to what amounts to an IQ over 110, least of all 165. Jesus, you could have picked a more realistic number instead of one that exemplifies absolute genius. Do you even know how rare that is, stupid? LOL
Also you, in typical intoleroleftist fashion you mewl to “block these trolls”. Of course leftists do not want discussions with to and fro dialogue, but simple inane head nodding agreement. The most obvious reason for that is that after the usual ad hominem attacks, there is eery silence from the left. Nothing. Nada. So you do what is best to save face and quickly prevent true dialogue. Another example of LOW IQ.
Demo re: Midwesterntransport,
She is going on about your typical Marxist drivel of Blacks and slavery. Maybe due to the fact you are in England, you missed it, however it is clear as day over here. She’s quite misguided and swallowed the white guilt in toto. She’s never questioned the fact that during the slave trade, nearly all slaves were bought by Whites. Blacks were enslaved and sold by Blacks. Blacks in Africa STILL ENSLAVE other Blacks today. Only 600-700K slave entered the US during the slave trade. Now we have over 30 million Blacks. Out of the 6-7 million Blacks enslaved during the slave trade, most went to to the Arab world, China, and South America. How many Blacks are there in those regions of the world? Not too many, for sure. What happened to them? Care to guess? Why are idiot leftist Whites and Blacks all up in arms about Blacks in Africa now, or the atrocities of slaves in those other regions? Because those other regions are not inundated in guilt, like Whites are and will not pay a single penny for any wrongdoings. It amounts to simple extortion like this.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200605110311.html
Whites also were the only people who ENDED slavery and made it illegal.
She also goes on with…
i live in a country of immigrants. a country where the native population was nearly decimated to make room for those immigrants - like my great-grandparents, etc.
God, what an ignorant mouthpiece. The country (US) is not a nation of immigrants. It is a nation founded by the Anglo, period.
To Diva,
Here is your “evidence”…
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psycholo...../PPPL1.pdf
If you get through that, ask me for more.
The incomprehensible Zardoz says…
IVE GOT A …Bsc in BIOLOGY ,,,
AND LAST I HEARD WE ALL HAVE THE SAME D.N.A.
ROTFLOL
We have the same DNA as all living things, you old fool. It is the frequency and makeup that makes us different. With only the most minute changes, come catastrophic effects.
Sorry people. I wasn’t here … again. And now have no idea where to delete ? This is all very sick. I’m sorry. Hopefully comments stop here.
I am going to try and block comments from this thread… now. Not sure how to do that but…
hey ethnojackass:
the us as a country was founded by the anglo, by your assertion, right?
were anglos NATIVE to us soil?
no
they were not.
so they were immigrants.
go away from dd’s site. she’s too good for the likes of your ignorant racist ass.
An immigrant is one who makes a petition to move to an already existing country, moron. What they did was SETTLE an open land. Considering the “natives” had no such thing and were nomads in the entire land mass, they had no, or very little, entitlement to the place.
Also, look up Kennewick man to see who the real “natives” were for North America. Yep, an ancient Euro. They didn’t teach that to you, did they?
This is all very sick.
Yes, I agree it is all very sick. Sick that you allow all sorts of ad hominem attacks from your little sound garden.
I think you should put up on the front of your page…ONLY assenting views allowed. That way, you need not worry of getting your friend’s panties in a bunch.
MWT
Fair enough.
I did initially think you were referring to slavery, but you got me confused because of:
1. Your reference to ‘brown and black people’
2. You were referring to ethno’s point about “western society allowing itself to be flooded with all sorts of people from all over the third world”, which I took as a reference to immigrants.
fine, ethno, and every single person who came to the u.s. after that? what were they?
IMMIGRANTS.
dd: Sorry about the greek diva, I am just under the impression that Mr. Ethnocentrist does not speak greek. Was just trying to establish that. it seems to be the case.
Zardoz: Go back to that big head in the sky ( if the rest of you have seen the movie you would understand)
You Biology racist you. You don’t come from a little black woman in africa like me and the the rest of us here.
Buru,
When you spoke to Ethno and Deomax in Greece, I think you were asking where Ethno comes from so you’d understand him?
So, you said: (am I right)
Ethno, Hey Chief, (mastora), do me a favor and tell us where you come from in Greece so I’ll know where you are coming from (mentally). I’m trying to understand the ??origins?? of your views, but I don’t understand you. Demonax: And you my friend, what “kollema”(crap??) have you eaten.
Ok, that’s my rough translation based on the Greek I know, but I think Ethno knows Greek and is just holding out on us.
Ok, buru, my IQ is 145 and I have documentation from Mensa to prove it… And to be quite honest with you, when I took the test in NYC, most of the others there were postal workers and Star Trek nerds, so I have to believe that having a high IQ is not really worth the salt if you don’t use it. In my case, since I’m so lazy that tends to be the case.
Anyways, Diva, what a hornets nest this thread has brought up, and it appears that your blog has filled a hole where Phylax Ted was before.
Pe Buru, ta xerume ta kolpa sas ke yafto potesa ti thelise na xepise. Den krivo pramata. Oti leo ene tin alithia san pou to xero. Kane ti erotise san andras. Ohi san pedaki. Keryae 140.
Sorry, do not have Greek font. For Buru. And I understood your mocking question.
Ethno and demonax, do you just feel superior, or are you really superior? Do you already have a diagnosis?
Ok fine, I admit. It was sneaky of me. I did ask ethnocentrist in greek where he was from. And that i couldn’t understand him because I had the suspicion that he is not a born-raised