The Orthodox church is in favor of the mosque? Is hell freezing over?

This whole controversy made me wonder if there are churches of other religions around Greece, or at least in the major cities. I don’t know if I’ve seen one, but I have hardly been all over. Is there a Jewish temple? A Catholic church? Any others?

I’m tempted to see if I can get support for a Church of the Subgenius.

There is a Catholic church in the centre on Panepistimiou. Never seen a synagogue. Otheres just have meeting places. My ideal would be one temple for all (including atheists…)

Aside from the Catholic church, there’s the Anglican church and the Russian Orthodox church on Filellinon; further down the street there’s an Evangelical church. On Kifissias at Paradeisos the Jehovah’s Witnesses have something…basically Christians of all stripes are represented, even the Mormons. There are two Jewish synagogues near Kerameikos.

No official, functioning mosques in Athens. Just the unofficial ones that people put together in basements and apartments. It ain’t right.

Believe it or not, there are many places of worhip in Athens for non Orthodox worshippers.

http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.prnt_article?e=C&f=&t=13&m=A16&aa=3

If you click the above link, you’ll be taken to the Athens News ‘Useful Info’ page which lists quite a few places you can go, if you actually want to go to the synagogue in Thessaloniki Mel then you need to be calling 2310 237875
The mosque issue definately needs addressing, Athens is the only European capital city without one.

Yes I do agree. It’s about time. There’s a basement in my street that serves as a prayer centre for muslims which is fine by me, but ideally these people should be allowed to build their own place of worship. Like EllasDevil pointed out there are many non-orthodox places of worship in Athens One of my friends is a Jewish Greek and she once showed me a synagogue in Keramikos which we happened to be walking by.
It’s funny, when I was living in Egypt, a supposed 3rd world country, a country that is 90% muslim, there were hundreds of churches all over Cairo including at least 7 that I know of that are Greek-orthodox. But here in supposed ‘enlightened’ Europe in the year (of our lord) 2006 we’re having this discussion. It makes me quiet angry. Another case of the Greek Church showing it’s real face.

I too agree that a mosque should be built somewhere in Athens. That said has anyone noticed how the ones agitating for the mosque (as well as the group of self-flagelating medievalists complaining about the Pederast* cartoons) all happen to be Pakistani or Arab? That when the largest community of Muslims in Greece is the Albanian one. Shows where OUR crop of indigenous Tube bombers is coming from…

*Says so right in their lil’ holly book. He didn’t mind apparently. O tempora, eh?

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned in this debate: most Greeks oppose the idea of a mosque in Athens because it’s (still, to this day) a symbol of oppression — i.e. the Turks dominated Greece for hundreds of years.

The rest of Eurpoe, e.g. the Brits, the Dutch, the Swedes, et. al. who never suffered under the Ottoman Empire, are more inclined to allow mosques in their cities because they never had direct experience with what Islam represented in Europe.

Here’s an analogy that might give you a better sense of the Greek perspective on this issue: what if the Klu Klux Klan petitioned the State of Mississippi for a public meeting hall?

You can bet there would be a huge public outcry from those who suffered under their reign of terror (even people who had no direct experience of the Klan at its peak), even though, strictly speaking, the Klan is allowed to exist and operate under the law.

Diva, in your most recent post on tea & hair, you asked people to look at things from your perspective. When it comes to this issue, you should do the same, but considering the Greek people’s perspective.

It is not the Greeks’ but the Greek and international racists’perspective to argue anything on the basis of equating Islam with the KKK! As well as identifying the whole of Islam with Turkey or the Ottomans, when almost all Muslims who need mosques in Athens are not Turks, but Arabas, Pakistani, Benghalis, Sudanese, etc. Let alone that one would find mosques in most if not all former Ottoman countries.

Anonymous, please name yourself.

While it’s true that the Ottoman empire appears in the Greek imagination as a purely Turkish operation, it’s worth noting that many, many thousands of Greeks were vital participants in its administration. So were Albanians, Kurds, Bulgarians etc. This was an empire, remember, not a nation. It was not - like the KKK - composed of only one ethnic group.

The distinction is important because it highlights a fundamental shift in the way we see the world. Before the 19th century, most people in the world were subjects of one empire or another. Their loyalty was not to their country, flag, language or skin colour - their loyalty was to their king or sultan, period. That’s quite different to what we call ‘patriotism’ today.

The Greeks who rose to high positions in the Ottoman empire were not ‘collaborrators’ or ‘traitors.’ They were subjects of the empire, working for the empire, in the same way that Greeks rose to high positions in the other empires of Europe. But since the 19th century, history has been written to portray everything in purely nationalist terms.

This isn’t to say that the Greeks and everybody else were wrong to rebel and fight bravely against the Ottoman empire. They were absolutely right and we should be grateful for what they did. It’s to say that the age of nationalism is past, it has stopped solving problems and now only creates more. It’s a bit like Stalinism or fascism - a way of thinking that belongs to another time.

In my opinion, the object in the mosque debate should be, in part, to re-evaluate the way history and identity are taught. A mosque in Athens should not offend or threaten anyone. If it does then we should examine the causes.

Well, I wasn’t trying to be inflammatory, I just wanted to illustrate the reasons behind the visceral reaction most Greeks have over this issue.

Nor was I equating Islam with the KKK: even though Islam encompasses many nations and peoples as the Helsinki Monitor fellow said, the Greeks’ direct experience with it is as part of oppressive Ottoman rule.

So, because of that experience, the perception (whether right or wrong) among many Greeks is that: Islam = Oppression.

It’s a reality: you can ignore it or complain about it because it’s not right in your world view, but it’s there, and until that reality is confronted, this issue will not be solved.

So…whoever you are…what’s your point, again? That we should confront the issue by not building a mosque?

Scarf + … whoever you are … I really liked your earlier post, though the nation state is not dead yet (whatever Bobbit might say).

As for poor Anonymous, was he/she really trying to be inflammatory? I doubt it. Isn’t it more likely that he/she was trying, albeit, rather clumsily with an unfortunate comparison, to make the point that history determines our attitudes and that, as Scarf + sort of says, it is only when we review history that we can make progress.

If quite a lot of Athenians are anxious about a large mosque being built in their midst, it would help to understand what they are frightened of. I am not frightened of Islam, but I feel threatened by some of its followers’ beliefs. As a women I am (irrationally?) frightened by an influx of Muslim males into my country since I fear that my freedoms might be curtailed if the country were to become majority Muslim. An unlikely outcome in my lifetime, I know, but the fear is real and rational because my freedoms are fragile and I want to protect them and I see women in Muslim countries being denied freedoms that I almost take for granted and I feel undressed by many of the recently-arrived Muslim men who cross my path. I could cope with a mosque, several mosques, small mosques, medium size mosques. But a proliferation of large prominent mosques full of men who are not used to affording women the rights I enjoy?

And just how tolerant am I if I can only tolerate the minority whilst it is very much a minority and I and the majority still have the power. Am I prepared to let the minority become the majority and dictate the agenda instead of me? No.

Don’t knock those who feel threatened - try and understand their fear.

Daffodil, you describe things very well. Of course we need to understand each others’ fears to try and find solutions. No question about that. I’m inclined to think that the idea of Muslim immigrants becoming a majority anywhere in Europe (outside of Albania and Bosnia) is an exaggerration, but your point is made. Your fears aren’t entirely unjustified, but I hope you remain willing to try to make things better. It’s no solution to live in fear.

I’m a bit annoyed with anonymous - partly because of the name - but mostly because none of us living in Greece can avoid learning about Greek fears of Turkey and Islam. Greek culture is extremely consistent in this. It’s a bit like Northern Ireland or Israel/Palestine - if you live on one side of the barbed wire fence or the other, you’re going to be deluged with reasons why the other side is so bad. I am (and I’m sure diva is too) very aware that there is a lot of sensitivity on the issue of a mosque in the center of Athens. I have friends and family who share those fears.

But I say break the deadlock.

It’s unrealistic to pretend that the immigrant Muslim population of Greece does not exist, or that their concerns can be ignored or procrastinated into disappearing. If things continue as they are - no mosque in Athens, no citizenship, basically no legal immigration (which means arbitrary imprisonment, deportation etc.) - it is a recipe for disaster: a million people with no rights, no prospects, scared of arrest and with nothing to lose. I don’t want that in my country. Greece can continue muddling along with no real initiatives on the situation, and I suppose it’s possible to keep exploiting desperate people for quite some time. But then we’ll turn into Afrikaaners.

The post I wrote above makes the point that Greek history needs to be re-thought. We could easily say the same thing about Turkish history - their brand of popular nationalism is far, far worse than the Greeks’. But I don’t live in Turkey, I live here, and I firmly believe there are things Greece can do to increase understanding of ‘the other side’ and our own.

Well said scarf+, Greek history as taught in schools is extremely one sided and it would do us a lot of good as a nation to realize exactly that. Unfortunately I fear we are not developing into a ‘healthy’ society but an irrantional, xenophobic and consumerist one where even people’s ideologies come packaged for easy cosumption and digestion. The devil is always in the details.

Daffodil: The problem with Islam and therefore the womens rights issues that you mention is real enough but it also stems out of ignorance and lack of education. In my mind Islam as it is practiced today reminds me of christianity in the middle ages. I think all religions can be dangerous when they are practiced in such an environment, I’m not worried so much about that in our case because a European Islam whose followers are educated, well informed wouldn’t be a threat to anyone. Again the problem with faith is when it is adopted blindly where the mass of its followers have not developed the ability to think independently.
I could go on but let me just make the point that if we as Europeans and particulary as Greeks do not assimilate these people into our societies we are risking alienating them and therefore fueling that which we fear most. Radicalization and all the unfortunate consequences that stem from that.