Comments on: CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION

By: Anestis

Anestis — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 20:29:26 +0000

You are missing about 70 mio points. Which just so happens to be the population of neighbouring Turan. There is a class of goods, so called public*, in which all can partake and access to which can’t be restricted. The most famous example in economics is of course national defence. The army will protect the free-riders as well as those paying their dues from the Mongols when the time comes (and that time WILL come) hence not to serve is free-riding and imposes a burden on the rest of us, more keenly felt by those of us who had to do both tours away from our hometown, who had to pull extra guard shifts, extra duties etc. Although I realise that it would be less keenly felt by xenoi who never had to serve and have no emotional attachement to this patch of land’s continued rule by Greeks.

The solution:

1) Draft women now.
2) Universal draft at age 18, no more splitting to Europe and the States
3) CO is already sufficiently unattractive and possible to anyone who wishes to serve double term in a civilian capacity. Maybe make it just 1.5 times as long as normal service. That’s doable.
4) Hire Israeli and US advisors and modernise the Greek army.
5) Improve domestic military production and try to catch up with the pace of the war forges stoked by the nomads’ across the pond,
6) Link Uni R&D with private equity and ensure investment in tech and tech infrastracture. Reap dividends.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

By: Matt aka Cato Uticensis

Matt aka Cato Uticensis — Mon, 03 Apr 2006 01:55:00 +0000

Why should brave Greeks who serve their country protect shirkers who will not serve? Most of these “people of conscience” are lazy cowards. What if the Spartans at Thermopylai and Plataia decided they didn’t want to fight? Greece would have become the smallest province of the Persian Empire. And Devious Diva, if you think your life is so horrendous now, imagine what it would be like if Greece was under the thumb of Middle Eastern tyrants, as it was from 1453-1821. You think women have it so terrible NOW.

Why is Greece free today? Because of the Greek men of courage who fought to make it that way. Otherwise, Diva, you could open the facemask on your burqa to kiss the hem of the Turkish Pasha’s robe.

You on the Left always seem to honor what is worthless and neglect or even hate that which you should be thanking God for.

By: SeaWitch

SeaWitch — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 19:49:48 +0000

Dean…with respects to how Greeks view Jehovah’s Witnesses. I did not include Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Lutherans or a host of other religions because we are talking about Greece here. I, by no means, implied that ONLY Greeks view them as a cult. Of course there are many different views from many different people in many different cultures around the world on this topic. But we are in Greece and I am commenting on topics as they pertain to Greece and not to people in Outer Mongolia.

By: deviousdiva

deviousdiva — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 19:12:09 +0000

Hi Seawitch, yes it's an uphill battle talking about issues like this, that seem so obvious. I've heard the whole "it's our duty and the what if arguments" again and again. I would have to be a CO if military service was an obligation in England. Thankfully it isn't and we have plenty of people willing to train and fight in illegal and pointless wars. They do not need me. Would I risk going to jail and being called a coward? Yes. Because being a coward is not the worse thing I could be. And no-one in their right mind would want me on their side! It all boils down to the fact that I couldn't live with myself if I DID go willingly. So people will call me a coward and tell me that I am relying on others to fight my fight. Fair enough. Say it. I still wouldn't join up.

Hello Dean, Leaving aside the Jehovah Witness argument ( because clearly they are not all JW) and I think it clouds the issue) I believe that ANYONE has the right to conscientious objection and I believe we should protect that right. You had a choice "to pay that tax" (I do not consider it to be that but you do) and you decided to pay it. That's your choice. It is also their choice NOT to. I do take exception to the way you call them "freeloaders". I disagree. They have chosen not to serve in the army. I am sure they pay their "dues" in all other ways. To serve or not to serve IS a choice in Europe. Whether you like it or not. And I for one would like to see protection for that right.

By: Dean

Dean — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:32:09 +0000

I don’t think this is an issue one can simplify.

Greece has some of the most serious security threats. Even though Greece supports Turkey gettinging into the E.U., most people in the EU don’t, and the blowback in Turkey from thier inability to get in could involve some very nasty agression.

NATO membership has not really stoipped any provocations by Turkey in the past, and with NATO losing menaing it is even less of a drag.

Just lookinga a map one sees three highly unstable states to the north (I am hopeful and optomistic, but instablity in the Balkans is a safer bet than stability) and one highly aggressive state with one of the biggest militaries in the world to the east. This is not the same as not serving in the Dutch military.

As far as Jehovas witnesses, this is not a Greek Orthodox prejudice, it is not considered to be a recognized Christian religion by Catholics and most protestants. The view as to its validity is wrong but to place it as a Greek Orthodox prejudice only is not accurate. Don’t forget that Scientology isconsidered to be a cult in Germany.

I served in the Greek military. I would not condemn those who refuse to serve as cowards. I do however look at them as people who refuse to pay a tax I must pay, whcih is to say as freeloaders. This is not only that they wont give the highly valuable time I did, but they also refuse to take the risk we all had to.

The policy has changed, to characterize its current statuse broadly as an abuse of human rights degrades and dilutes real human rights issues. Several of these cases are of persons who volunteered for professional service and changed their minds.

By: SeaWitch

SeaWitch — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 06:12:30 +0000

Conscientious Objection is an alien topic to Greeks and therefore these men will probably receive no sympathy which is needed to garner public support for their case and a change in the law.

Greeks are fiercely proud of their history as fighters and for anyone NOT to want to fight for their country is shameful. I’ve had discussions so many times on this topic and every single time, the consensus was that conscientious objectors are tantamount to cowards or traitors. People always bring up the “what if the Turks invaded again” scenario. Even though I point out that Greece is now a member of the EU and NATO making an attack by EU hopeful Turkey highly improbable, they still believe that military service must be fulfilled.

Another reason that objectors are still being imprisoned is that quite a few of them are Jehovah’s Witnesses…a religion that the Greek Orthodox people don’t even accept as a religion…a cult at best. To support their right to conscientious objection is to support them even being a religion.

Personally, considering the fraudulent War on Iraq, conscientious objection becomes even more logical to me.

By: zardoz

zardoz — Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:14:51 +0000

HI YA ms DD

DIFFERENT THEME TODAY.
INTERESTING.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

=== Z ===