So how do Greek teachers tell the story of Greece? Children are taught that the Greeks have always been a nation with a national consciousness, that the Greek Orthodox Church has always been the guardian of Hellenism, that the intellectual acheivements of Ancient Greece are a personal and national inheritance, and that this tiny country has always been the object and victim of Great Power designs.

It’s obvious that it hurts you a lot that the modern Greeks consider themselves heirs to the ancient Greeks. You are entitled to
your opinion, but keep dreaming if you think that they should not consider it part of their “personal and natural inheritance”. It’s not too difficult to grasp, really. They speak the same language; they have inhabited the same land for ages. But if, say, I get thrilled every time I come accross Eratosthenes’s method for computing the circumference of the Earth, then I’m a goddamn nationalist. Keep deluding yourself.

They don’t teach that the ‘nation-state’ is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.

I have no idea what you mean. Granted, education is used heavily for propaganda reasons, and this happens everywhere, not only in Greece (a country heavy with historical significance, nonetheless).

Even more importantly, the teachers’ entire discourse is shaped by a posture of defensiveness. Children are taught primarily to defend the Greek dogma, the actual substance of history and society is selective and secondary. It’s amazing how effective this is. Even cultivated Greeks who have studied abroad have a defensive reflex when it comes to criticism of Greece. Some people are especially rabid on the subject…

“The substance of history and society is selective and secondary”? You have any idea what you’re trying to say here? This makes no sense whatsoever. Canada has been around for less than 150 years. Do you think that the Canadian educational system does not
stress the global significance of Canada? They virtually have no history (no offense here–I am Canadian and I love the country and the principles it stands for), yet they passionally defend it and rightly so!

Should the Greek educational system put more weight to world history that it does (or than it used to do 15 years ago when I was still a student)? Definetely. But you make the bold claim that Greeks should not identify the Ancient Greeks as their ancestors on the grounds that the educational system defends this reality. Once again: keep dreaming.

Is it so surprising, then, that in 1996 Greece and Turkey almost went to war over a pebble?

You subscribe to the same moronic attitude as your former president then. It’s more than a “pebble”. It is a matter of sovereignty.
It is a matter of an attempt by a historically hostile nation to change the already fragile status quo.

Ethnocentrist: I admire your patience, honestly.

Greece has a lot of flaws and a lot of contradictions, and yet I’m still here. Talking about them doesn’t make me dangerous”

WELL YEAH. The dangerous talk is from you who decided that any critizism of Greece is anti something. We just point out some things that are true.I don’t think it is dangerous or anything to say your point of view. But if you are wrong, you are wrong.

I also want to know what ethnocentrist would do to make an ethnically and racially pure nation?

At the same time that Mr. Griffith made his appalling comments about the American Indians, there was a widespread movement in the US to critically examine the American myths about pioneers, cowboys and Indians. A lot of really nasty stuff was uncovered, and a lot of new heroes came into being as well. The West was seen in a new light. And as a result of these revelations, America did not collapse and fall down, people did not commit guiltridden suicide, the world did not come to an end. It’s my firm belief that a country and a people are stronger by looking at their own history honestly, accepting both the heroic events and the shameful ones. You can disagree with that if you like.

As to the Imia affair: my point was NOT that we should lie down and call ourselves something else. It’s absolutely clear that the forces of nationalism on both sides caused that thing to happen, and will probably cause something similar or worse in the future. Why on earth do people continue on a path that leads only to war or the danger of war? Isn’t it possible to love your country and its people without depending on an enemy?

Greece has a lot of flaws and a lot of contradictions, and yet I’m still here. Talking about them doesn’t make me dangerous, Thano.

They don’t teach that the ‘nation-state’ is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.

You oversimplify things, to a dangerous degree perhaps. It’s true, we are not taught about our own “Injuns” to the degree that I’d like perhaps, but it is not true that children are brainwashed with propaganda. We do have a history and a proud one. Whether you like it or not there have been brilliant pages, as well as dark ones (the former by far outnumbering the latter I am glad to say). Our ancestors, as far back as 5000 years and as close as 50 years have undertaken feats of human spirit and gotten through gaining praise from the world.

As for… “pebbles”? Yes, some pebbles are worth going to war over. Otherwise we might as well lie down and call ourselves something else, not greeks, speak some other language, get washed away from history’s pages. Otherwise, we might as well become refugees in our own country. We won’t.

How on earth would you propose achieving that state even if people wanted it (which I don’t believe they do)? As you are disallowing the no-one is pure argument, then let me ask you something. Would the Greeks be allowed to stay in your little “Utopia” if they were pure? Or would you have them deported back to Greece? And the Greeks who married non-Greeks and have mixed race children? Do you have special plans for them?

I think you confuse the issue of immigration with that of illegal immigration. Immigration is legal and, fortunately, many of us have the right to go and live in other countries if we want to. As far as I know you can emmigrate to India, China or Africa if you want to.

As to the “who is a racist” argument. I am not sure I understand why you bring this up? You said “Why are racial issues, when discussed by whites, considered racist?” That is plainly not true. (Certainly not here though I cannot speak for everyone). It is not the fact that you are white and discussing racial issues that makes you racist. It’s the content of your argument. If you say racist things you are being racist. The definition Starfish gave “”An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional” does not say that this only applies to white people. I personally have to question my own racism as I believe any decent human being should.

I am extremely curious about how you are going to achieve your desire to live in an ethnically and racially pure nation? Although, admittedly, I am worried what the reply will be.

Do people here believe that whites in Europe, North America, and Australia have the right to exist in peace with others of their own ethny? Freedom of association if you will, only extended to the entire nation(s). Do they have a right to maintain ethnic and racial homogeneity as is understood in this day and age. (Let’s not get back to the “no one is pure” strawman again) If yes, why? If no, why?

Why are white nations held to this “higher standard” of being force fed immigration while other non-white nations have no problem rejecting it and no one questions it?

Do people here believe whites are the only ones who are racist? Why are racial issues, when discussed by whites, considered racist?

Huh?

So how do Greek teachers tell the story of Greece? Children are taught that the Greeks have always been a nation with a national consciousness, that the Greek Orthodox Church has always been the guardian of Hellenism, that the intellectual acheivements of Ancient Greece are a personal and national inheritance, and that this tiny country has always been the object and victim of Great Power designs.

They don’t teach that the ‘nation-state’ is an intellectual invention of the 18th & 19th centuries, or that the Greek Orthodox Church enthusiastically supported whatever empire had the most power for 2000 years, or that original thinking and critical inquiry are the hallmarks of Ancient thought.

Even more importantly, the teachers’ entire discourse is shaped by a posture of defensiveness. Children are taught primarily to defend the Greek dogma, the actual substance of history and society is selective and secondary. It’s amazing how effective this is. Even cultivated Greeks who have studied abroad have a defensive reflex when it comes to criticism of Greece. Some people are especially rabid on the subject…

It’s also worth noting that the intellectual founders of Greek nationalism were almost entirely diaspora Greeks.

School textbooks in the US have been re-written a few times since 1975. I imagine there is a bit more information now about the extermination of Native Americans, not that anybody there pays much attention in history class anyway. Greek textbooks have changed somewhat too - mostly to adjust five generations of extreme right-wing influence - but the method of teaching hasn’t changed at all. Children are still made to think defensively about their country and their church, and they are actively discouraged from examining uncomfortable subjects. Teachers are underpaid and just want to get the subject covered by rote-learning, parents complain if their kid comes home and tries to puncture their nationalist myths, it’s easier for everybody to go with the flow. Is it so surprising, then, that in 1996 Greece and Turkey almost went to war over a pebble?

I know some people who’ve spent many years studying nationalism in the Balkans. They say it’s like walking through a hall of funhouse mirrors. The Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks all describe the same subjects in completely different ways. It’s been said that each country’s nationalism depends on the other countries’ nationalism for support. And obviously, nothing encourages nationalism more than a war or threat of war; a vital part of all nationalist thought is the looming shadow of The Enemy.

I agree with deviousdiva. Diversity and integration are enriching and the best guarantees against this cycle of war.

António

“You state you have no desire to be Greek. Then why are you there?”

I am a British citizen and have the right to live and work or study in another EU country if I choose. You have that same right in Britain. If you chose to exercise that right, I would not expect you to automatically want to become British. I am learning the language, admittedly slowly, but I try. I am not here as a “parasite”. I work when I can. I contribute to the social services that I use. I abide by the laws of this country. I am not sending money back “home”, although I can choose what to do with my money. (If I could help my family out of a financial crisis, I would. As they would do for me.)

There are many great things about Greece and there are many negatives. As in Britain. And all countries. I can see that it is no longer possible for us to live here for many reasons which I won’t go into. I don’t know where I will end up, but wherever that happens to be, I will remain a decent, honest and active citizen of that place.

As to race. Who said there’s no such thing?! Of course there is and of course there are traits inherent to each race (again, whether genetic or cultural we cannot - for now - distinguish exactly).

As to Greeks, again so there is no misunderstanding. I love Greece and the people. For all their flaws they are my family. I am concerned with the direction we have taken as a people. Perhaps we don’t have a (genetic or cultural) future ahead of us. Perhaps we will die out or get assimilated. That is how it goes. It would be a pity, but such is evolution. I hope it won’t end this way and I’ll try my best to help. As for children, part of it will remain private, but I will respond: Yes! Such is the world today! We have become selfish, perhaps. We want the children and the career. We want the joy, but we also want the free time. Well, one cannot have both (or rarely) so we each make our choices. And if our choice is to not have children, then perhaps we *should* die out as a people… who knows.

About “Macedonians” (and yes, I use quotation marks). I realize it’s a sensitive issue and I will plainly put down my views, citing that they may be tainted, but if so only with a desire for the truth and for peace. The people of FYROM (the ones that are not Albanian, Turkish etc at least): Macedonian? Geographically yes. Skopje is part of Macedonia (and therefore I was all for calling it Slavic Macedonia, or some derivative like that). Genetically/culturally? They are slavic. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but calling themselves descendants of the greek macedonians of Philip and Alexander? I don’t feel animosity.. it’s a lie they have been fed, raised with. No hard feelings. I just hope the people of FYROM will not allow themselves, their sense of nationality (true or constructed, it doesn’t matter for this argument) be used by other powers to further causes that are not their own.

I shouldn’t say it again, but I do agree: If you want to live somewhere and have children and a future there, you should assimilate into the society. I too take issue with ethnic minorities “infiltrating” a foreign country and then lobbying non stop for their “homeland”. I don’t take issue with a guest-worker who is legal pays taxes and has enough income to support a family abroad. I respect that.

As to the last sentence… I fear the world of Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, the world of Washington, Jefferson and Adams is gone. Gone is the innocence, the thirst for knowledge, the clear eyes looking into the future. Our world is the ship descending through a blood-red maelstrom into Hell. No one is innocent, we are all party to it. And I’m sorry.

I too think this might be a good spot to end the discussion, we have all distilled our views to a fine point. We have not *yet* started going round in circles, although my response here might be bordering on that. I’ll keep reading too and perhaps post if I have something new to offer.

Oh come on now. You know perfectly well that Greece was a hodgepodge of different ethnicities, languages and religions before 1821, and these people did not simply fade away into thin air. They were Hellenized (quite a few were simply killed). You know perfectly well that Attiki was heavily populated by Arvanites - what the rest of the world calls ‘Albanians’ - and it was only through massive education, propaganda and violence that these people stopped speaking Albanian, changed their names and became Greek.

And when they find a little blue and white chromosome with a cross on it, I’ll frame it and hang it on the wall. Being Greek is absolutely, 100% a cultural thing and you know it. If it wasn’t, Greece would simply not exist. And fortunately for Greece and its plummetting birthrate, there’s a whole bunch of people out there begging to become Greek.

You know, I’m really surprised you haven’t seized on that as a source of pride. Instead of all this nonsense about biology, you should look at the inexplicable mountain of evidence that proves the power of Greek ideas. How the people in this part of the world survived under the bloody Byzantines, then the Ottomans, then the Nazis…it’s remarkable. If you want to feel good about your nation and your ethny, look there. You don’t need a microscope.

I definitely am not going to get into a geo-political discussion with you here. That is even worse than racial issues. I touched upon it in my response to Thanos and Macedonians. These people, unless they have bred with Greeks are NOT Greek. Pure and simple.

Being Greek is a genetic thing and Greeks have a culture that they have “honed” over the years, centuries. As for the “plummetting birthrate” which I did not want to get into though since you brought it up is a direct effect of several things. Advanced liberalism which has led people to be more selfish and individualistic, extreme feminism, AND immigration.

The first two are intertwined where it has led women to become more concerned of “self” as opposed to family. Being careerists, sexually liberated and more like sexually revolting(as I’ve mentioned long ago in my observations this past summer in Greece), and materialistic. Not just women, but men as well. Though women have more of a direct role in the health of a nation.

Immigration, particularly when it involves countries with generous social programs, has a negative effect on native birthrates. This is due to the cost of maintaining the social net. People make sacrifices due to increased costs of living and one area is children. Children do not seem to be such a problem to many immigrants who live much better than any third world homeland they came from. In essence this becomes an attack on the native population. Another lie from the left where we need immigrants because they “will do the the work that no Greek wants to do”. Absurd. This is only scratching the surface on this topic and all I’m willing to get into.

Having people knocking down the proverbial door to “become Greek” is not a source of pride to me or anyone serious about this topic. As I’ve stated repeatedly, one does not become Greek as soon as they land in Athens. Greeks gave the world a multitude of extremely impressive intellectual disciplines. HOW ON EARTH are these “new Greeks” going continue to advance the Greek contributions to the world when some, like Diva do not even want to BE Greek, and others come from places that never created a written language? Ummm, I don’t think so! Pretty soon, if Greece does not control its borders, Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates will be referred to “dead old white men” just like Washington, Jefferson, and Adams are in the US. Baaaaad example!

That is the crux of why after a certain point it no longer becomes useful to continue a dialogue. This is not only for you but for most others who frequent this board. I’ve tried to use logic, fact, and a small amount of available data to forward my argument and in the end, one has the choice of accepting it, rejecting it, or looking further into it. For obvious reasons, you reject it outright, which is your right. I also have the right to say enough, which I will most likely do.

A lot of the contra responses since I’ve arrived are simply indoctrinated parroting of the liberal dogma of today. People cringe at the mere mention of race which is due to the relentless droning of the media and the Marxist infiltrated school curricula.

Two points though with you specifically:

1) You mentioned on another thread of “racist statistics”. Statistics are not racist and this shows how the left has taught its disciples the speech suppressing jargon. Again, not that you are being suppressive in anyway, but in general. People become infuriated with the mere mention of discordant crime stats in the US. Just bringing up the absolute fact, that is found in the FBI and Dept of Justice websites for ALL to see, that blacks are over-represented in these stats brings calls of Nazi, racist, and Klansman. Uhh, WHY is that? How is one regurgitating numbers that are open to the public, racist?

2) You state you have no desire to be Greek. Then why are you there? This same mentality occurs in many immigrants all over Europe, North America, and Australia. Do you think we like having people in our midst that have no intention of embracing and becoming engulfed in the native culture? Why should we be forced to tolerate that? I never thought or said that I had no desire to be American? If there is going to be a continuation of all sorts of immigration into western nations, which I am strongly against, then the bare minimal criteria is that these immigrants MUST become nationalists to their new homelands. No exceptions. Otherwise there is no reason to move to foreign places. And NO, living in a nation as a parasite by earning income, utilizing the social services, and sending money back “home” is unacceptable. If the country is good enough to live in, then it is good enough to help as best as you can. The very least is to become one.

Maybe you can address those points and these others that were directed at Scarfi, but anyone is free to answer…

Also, I did notice how you circled and circled and finally came to the “your views are solely based on racism” point. Please explain to me HOW wanting to have Greece relatively homogenous as well as Europe, wanting to be with my own ethny, and wanting this for my progeny is “racist”? Are European derived people and nations somehow LESS deserving to want this than say China, Israel, India etc? All those places and more have STRICT racial laws. No one seems to be clamouring on about them.

If a white says he wants to be around whites, then that is racism. Yet if any other non-white wants to be around solely their respective non-whites, then that’s “ethnic pride”. LOL How utterly stupid, biased, racist, and god damn ridiculous.